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Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
Malenko:
--- Quote from: CoOlSlY on June 13, 2014, 03:30:53 pm ---Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s
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The best 4 player panel Ive ever used was on NBA Jam / Open Ice. The main issue with 4 player panels is they are typically frankenpanels. The more stuff you try to cram on there the less room you have for arms, hands, and fingers. I am making a 4 player panel, based on Open Ice, but with the sticks in a line, and the inner 2 players having the 7 button layout. No spinner, no trackball, no extra 4 way.
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s
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Perfection is a statement based on personal preferences. Whats perfect for me, isnt perfect for you.
Furthermore, what I thought was perfect at one time... had changed when I became more educated. For example, learning the joy of real leaf switch buttons, true restricted 4ways, and the ultimate for Rototron (and many other classic games), real Wico 8way leaf joysticks) *(the new leaf based stuff people are making today, does NOT compare to the originals)
As you have said, you want Symmetry as a main feature... then me and you will differ right away. Because to me.. Id rather have comfort while playing... rather than for example, resting your arms on top of a bunch of other buttons / controllers. As well as the Trackball issue - where as you really need about 1ft diameter circle of free space surrounding it.. else you will probably smash your hands into a joystick... or something else. (Many people crank up the sensitivity of the trackball - so they dont have to roll as fast and hard... but that takes away the challenge, skill, feel, and is basically Cheating. Id rather not play a game, than to play a handicapped version of it... )
There are a few options Ive not listed... which could solve some of these issues.. such as a flip-out trackball assembly. Ive not yet built it, but its possible. Heck, even a slide out trackball setup would solve a lot of space issues, and be more easy to construct.
--- Quote --- The main issue with 4 player panels is they are typically frankenpanels. The more stuff you try to cram on there the less room you have for arms, hands, and fingers.
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The term is for Anal people who value looks over funciontality.. such as in your example, of a panel that plays a very limited spectrum of games. While you may have Other cabinets that play these other games... not everyone has the space, time, and money... to do the same.
There are many ways to cram a lot of controllers on a panel, without any loss of comfort or performance. Much like rearanging a room, it takes planning and sometimes some trial and error, to get things right.
Furthermore, you can make very large control panels, providing more comfort and space than found in the old arcade days. It may not be proportioned to look as nice... but your guest wont care, as they will enjoy the comfort and elbow room of the extra wide CP... as well as not having to rub sweaty bodies while playing.. for long periods of time.
Control panels can be rotated, having one one the bottom... or more than that... Can be vertical or horizontal in nature... such as a Pedestal that can be turned to the other side for alternate controls - saving the need to reach deep into the CP (which is very unconmfortable). And if you dont mind lugging out a 50lb CP every few games... and or have the space, time and extra money from additional encoders and artwork... then you can make swappable CPs. As well as the possible use of all or some of these methods in combination.
--- Quote --- he thinks Hard Driving is the most realistic racing game ever made.
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No. The more realistic ARCADE driver released - that including the most realistic and best performing CONTROLLERS.
A) The physical model of the game was designed by a car physics guy. The leading man in the business. And yes, the physics go all the way down to the actual TIRES of the car. See Jed's site for that mentioned...
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You may have noticed that the Credit Screen lists Doug Milliken as a Test Driver. He is listed as a Test Driver because Atari didn't want anyone to know what he really did.
When we started Hard Drivin' we wanted it to be as accurate as possible. That meant doing an accurate car model to mathematically describe the physics of how the parts of the car (engine, transmission, springs, shock absorbers, tires, etc.) react to each other, to the road, and to the driver's inputs.
It also describes how the forces are transmitted back to the driver through the force-feedback steering wheel.
The pioneer in the field (in the 1950s) was William Milliken of Milliken Research. He son, Doug, has continued his father's work. Doug is probably the world's leading expert in car modeling. Doug and his father wrote the book on car modeling. And I mean that literally. (Go to Amazon.com and check out "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (R146)" by William F. Milliken, Douglas L. Milliken).
Doug is also a good friend of Max's.
We hired Doug as a consultant to develop the car model. At the time (1980s) most of the work in car modeling was done to look at how the different parts of the car worked together within certain narrow speed ranges.
Our car had to work at all speeds. The way the car works at high speed is different than at slow speeds, such as when you are stopped and just starting to roll.
Doug and Max worked together to develop a car model that smoothly and dynamically changes depending on the mode. (Doug and Max are the smartest people I know.)
Atari had us list Doug as a Test Driver because they didn't want anyone to know we were doing real car modeling.
The modeling is so good (along with the moving dashboard contributed by Erik Durfey) that some people swear the game has a powered moving seat.
BTW, the seat position sensor scales the force feedback in the steering wheel. Presumably, a young person will have the seat forward and will get less force, and an adult will have it further back and get more force.
The TMS34010 does not have floating point, so Max could only model the car as having two wheels.
For Race Drivin' I put an AT&T DSP32C on the DSK Board (DSK stands for Driver Speed Kit.) The DSP32C is faster than the TMS34010 and has floating point. Because Max wrote the Car Model in C he was able to port it to the DSP32C in an afternoon. After that, he was able to have it execute a car model with four wheels. It also has a faster update rate.
The difference is very apparent when you drive the Original Track in Race Drivin'.
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Not many games went to this level of accuracy.. if ever. One fine day, Id managed to hit the large ramp at an odd angle. Somehow I think I clipped the edge of the landing ramp, but came off the ramp in a way that tilted the car vertically... thus I landed on the front tire or both tires on one side of the car. Rather than wreck.. the car started to spin around, bouncing from tires to tires, while at various vertical angles... eventually, it fell flat, and I was actually able to continue to drive away!
Race Drivin has a Force Feedback motor thats the size of an industrial machine. The diameter is close to that of a gallon can of paint, and is very heavy. The wheel, is the largest diameter wheel probably ever made for a racing game. And the actual wheel can spin 3 or more full rotations from furthest left to furthest right. The brake pedal has an actual pressure sensor, rather than just a typical pot. Unlike most games which used the same spring system for the gas.. on the brake as well... Race Drivin acutally used a different kind of compressible rubber system... that more closely mimics the feel of a brake pedal being used. The force is more stiff, and even when you press it nearly to the max travel... you then can continue to press is very hard with your leg, to continue to get the pressure sensor to register that force being applied. The pressure sensor is far more accurate than the typical pot values as well.. far exceeding the typical range. That said, Race Drivins wheel used what I beleve was a 10-turn pot. Again, far more accurate, with far greater range than the typical pots used in 99% of all arcade racers & even the majority of PC & gaming wheels. Some use optical spoked wheel sensors to get around this... however, as good as optical can be... its still not as linear and precise as an analog pot.
The Shifter is another marvel. Used two pots rather than a bunch of microswitches. Ive had to replace Daytona USA's crappy mini-micros at the arcade.. every other month. Where as RD's shifter was pretty much failproof. I replaced its pots like Once in its lifetime of use and abuse. It also felt far more smooth, realisitic, and locked into place with a great snapping force. It was easy to get into gears.. without any accidental fumbling. I believe it also has a gear lock mechanism (one I have, uses a large electromagnet) , so if you try to use it without pressing the clutch... it either makes it harder, or stops it from being possible. (Check games service menu for options)
The seat also was locked in place with a powerful electromagnet. Depending on the seat distance.. the force of the feedback was scaled up or down. There was also option in the service menu, to crank the thing up to crazy levels of power. You could have taped a small kid to the wheel.. and had him spin around.. if the seat was back far enough.
It was also one of the only games that you needed to actually start the car correctly.. being in correct gear, with some gas, I think the clutch needed to be down too.. if using manual, and then turning the Key. Fail to do that, or do it poorly... and the car wouldnt start up and go.. and or would stall out.
Please name another arcade racer that went to that level of realism and control accuracy...
And or, please find another pedal and wheel set that can be used with the most modern consoles.. that matches all of those specs... and as a bonus, could withstand the abuse of kids in a busy arcade for years on end.
Xiaou2:
Btw - I want to add, that the need for absolute symmetry on a CP is OCD Madness.
Is your cars dash and control devices, symmetrical?
How about an Airplane's controls?
By the definition, you are driving around in your car, using a franken panel.
But the reality is that controls are designed for comfort, precision control, safety, and lasting durability.
Cars controls do not Need to be symmetrical. But they do Need to be useful, accurate, and comfortable.
Its pretty much the same thing with game controllers.
Function & Comfort, over look.
Heck, even the most expensive supercars still use non-symmetrical designs.. and internally are not exactly "Peacefully Zen-Like", or Artistic masterpieces.
And even the most Artistic cabinets, are neither Symmetrical, nor non-tacky.. in the "adult Living-Room" sense. (It would be hard to make any cabinet fit that description anyways.. ) See: Discs of Tron Environmental, for incredible artistic value... maybe the most artistry ever worked into an arcade cab.
Malenko:
I prefer functionality over having too many controls on one panel. Yes, there have been some well made functional frankenpanels, but they are more of the exception than the rule. My panel WILL be limited, I'll only be able to play about 95% of MAME's games (excluding the mahjong titles) . I would suggest the OP figure out all the games he thinks he'll play then figure out controls based around that. I feel its better to pick out controls based on what you want to play rather than figure out what can you play with the controls you picked.
EDIT: self imposed thread clean up
ChanceKJ:
Ugh, ::) Unsubscribed