GroovyMame setup help please

[ravi]

Hi Guys,

Heres my setup:

Windows XP 64bit
emulators: groovymame64_0149.014b and MameUIHI64_v0.149u1
Romset : Mame 0.149
drivers : crt_emudriver_6.5_1.2_x64_multisync
Graphics : Ati x600pro 256mb PCI Express
Intel i3 2120 processor
Memory 8gb
Hardisk : 500gb
TV: Bang and Olufsen MX6000 connected via RGB scart using the UMSA adapter (15Khz display on my TV)


The CRTemu drivers have installed correctly and i have used to Arcade_OSD to tweak all the resolutions.
MameUIHI64 runs all Horizontal games ok but with 5%/10% overscan
Groovymame64_0149.014b runs the same games better with no overscan but some games there is like a curve in the top right hand corner. Please see the attached screenshots. All the Neo Geo games run perfect but some other games with the same resolution get that curve issue
(I previously had this curve issue on some resolution but it was corrected using Arcade OSD)

Is there any settings i change  or tweak please?

Thank you in advance for your help guys.

Please see the main section of my mame.ini below :

# CORE SWITCHRES OPTIONS
#
modeline                  1
monitor                   generic_15
orientation               horizontal
aspect             4:3
connector                 auto
interlace                 1
doublescan                1
cleanstretch              0
changeres                 0
powerstrip                0
lock_system_modes         1
lock_unsupported_modes    0
refresh_dont_care         0
dotclock_min              0
sync_refresh_tolerance    2.0
frame_delay               0
lcd_range                 auto
crt_range0                auto
crt_range1                auto
crt_range2                auto
crt_range3                auto
crt_range4                auto
crt_range5                auto
crt_range6                auto
crt_range7                auto
crt_range8                auto
crt_range9                auto

# WINDOWS VIDEO OPTIONS
#
video                     ddraw
numscreens                1
window                    0
maximize                  1
keepaspect                1
prescale                  1
waitvsync                 1
menu                      0

[Calamity]

Hi ravi,

What did you do to remove the curve with ArcadeOSD? That's where the answer is.

[ravi]

Hi Calamity,

Thank you for such a brilliant mame emulator and your prompt response.

I tried adjusting the following setting in Arcade osd but they have no effect in Groovymame :

arcade osd > vertical gemometry > v back porch - adjust the setting until the vertical line in the corner are straight.

The changes i make are working in windows, MameUIHI64  but not Groovymame. 

Is there anything you can suggest?

Thanks

Ravi

[Calamity]

Write down the value of the vertical back porch that makes the picture ok, and post it here.

MAME_UI_whatever doesn't create its own modelines, so it just picks the default ones in the registry, which are the ones you modify with ArcadeOSD. GroovyMAME creates its own modelines, ignoring the registry modelines. In other words, you can't adjust GroovyMAME modes with ArcadeOSD, it's not meant for that.

[ravi]

Hi again,

The vertical back porch values changes depending on the resolution. Please see the attached pics of three of the curve issue resolutions.
The value varies from 19, 24 and 25 for these resolutions.

Cheers,

Ravi

[Calamity]

Did you *only* modify V back porch? I'd say you also increased V front porch. I'm interested in the exact change that needs to be done with respect to the originally calculated modelines in order to overcome the curve issue, so we can generalize it to a crt_range line that does the same thing for us.

[ravi]

Hi Calamity,

I only modified the Vertical back porch, this was the only setting that would fix the curve issue i was experiencing.

I did this for the following available resolutions : (All displaying ok with no curve in windows and in some other versions of mame/ other emulators)

192 x 224 60p
216 x 224 60p
224 x 224 60p
224 x 240 60p
232 x 224 60p
240 x 224 60p
240 x 240 60p
240 x 256 59p
248 x 224 60p
248 x 240 60p
248 x 256 59p
256 x 224 60p
256 x 240 60p
256 x 256 59p
256 x 288 52p
264 x 224 60p
264 x 240 60p
272 x 224 60p
280 x 224 60p
280 x 240 60p
288 x 224 60p
288 x 240 60p
296 x 224 60p
296 x 240 60p
304 x 224 60p
304 x 240 60p
312 x 288 53p
320 x 224 60p
320 x 240 60p
320 x 256 58p
320 x 448 60i
320 x 480 60i
328 x 224 60p
328 x 256 58p
336 x 240 60p
336 x 256 58p
344 x 240 60p
344 x 256 58p
352 x 224 60p
352 x 240 60p
352 x 256 58p
360 x 224 60p
360 x 240 60p
368 x 224 60p
368 x 240 60p
368 x 256 58p
368 x 448 60i
376 x 240 60p
376 x 256 59p
376 x 272 55p
384 x 224 60p
384 x 240 60p
384 x 256 58p
384 x 288 52p
400 x 224 60p
400 x 232 60p
400 x 240 60p
400 x 248 60p
400 x 256 59p
400 x 264 57p
400 x 280 54p
400 x 288 52p
416 x 224 60p
416 x 256 58p
432 x 224 60p
432 x 240 60p
432 x 248 60p
432 x 256 58p
432 x 264 57p
432 x 272 55p
432 x 280 54p
448 x 224 60p
448 x 240 60p
456 x 232 60p
456 x 240 60p
456 x 256 58p
464 x 224 60p
464 x 256 59p
480 x 224 60p
480 x 240 60p
480 x 464 60i
480 x 480 60i
496 x 224 60p
496 x 240 60p
496 x 480 60i
512 x 224 60p
512 x 240 60p
512 x 256 58p
512 x 288 52p
512 x 448 60i
512 x 480 60i
544 x 256 58p
544 x 480 60i
576 x 224 60p
640 x 240 60p
640 x 256 58p
640 x 480 60i
640 x 480 61i
640 x 480 62i
648 x 240 60p
664 x 496 59i
664 x 496 60i
672 x 224 60p
672 x 240 60p
672 x 272 55p
688 x 512 57i
688 x 512 58i
704 x 240 60p
704 x 272 55p
704 x 480 60i
704 x 528 56i
720 x 480 60i
728 x 544 54i
728 x 544 55i
736 x 272 55p
768 x 224 60p
768 x 576 52i
792 x 592 49i
792 x 592 50i

Is there anything you want me to try or do?

[Calamity]

Hi ravi,

It's the "before and after" what I need to know. How those 3 modelines were before you modified them, so I can see the exact change you needed to do.

[ravi]

oh..  i see..

I would not know the old default setting as i have already saved and changed them.

Do you want me to connect my old PC to the same TV and reinstall the drivers.. then screenshot the original settings ??
(Has a different graphics card ATI 9200 i think)

or shall i remove and reinstall the drivers on this pc and screenshot the original settings then modify the resolutions again using the Vertical back porch(screenshot again)

For which resolutions do you want to do this? (all the ones with curve issue)

Thanks

Ravi

[Calamity]

Did you ever run vmmaker? If you did, the original settings are inside modeline.txt. Just post the corresponding modelines for the three resolutions you posted first.

Don't run vmmaker again or you will loose your current adjustments. If you want to preserve them, use Winmodelines to backup your currently modified modelines.

[ravi]

Hi Calamity,

I never ran vmmaker as i was happy with default resolutions provided by the driver.

I uninstalled / reinstalled the driver so most of my resolutions now have the curve issue in windows.

I have adjusted the following resolutions to get rid of the curve :

256x224 - just changed Vertical back porch to 25 (original setting was 24)
320x224 - just changed Vertical back porch to 25 (original setting was 24)
400x256 no curve issue - not modified
(Please see attached screenshots)

Looks like adding one or two to the vertical back porch fixes the curve issue.

Any other resolutions you want me to test / screenshot.

Thanks again..

Ravi

[Calamity]

Great.

In GroovyMAME, try these settings:

monitor custom
crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.088, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

[ravi]

Hi Calamity,

I made those those changes to my mame.INI but have exactly the same curve issues.

Thanks,

Ravi

[Calamity]

Which games have you tested with these new settings? Please test Toki and post a log of it.

[ravi]

Hi again,

I tried Silkworm, outrun, mortal kombat and golden axe all with the same curve issue.

How do I create a log of a game please?

Thanks

[Calamity]

groovymame.exe romname -v >romname.txt

[ravi]

Hi Calamity,

Toki appears to work ok without any curve issues.

Please find attached log files for the other games with the curve issue.

Thanks,

Ravi

[Calamity]

Ok, now try increasing the vertical back porch by steps of 0.064:

crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.152, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

then:

crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.216, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Eventually it should work.

[ravi]

Hi Calamity,

The curve issue is still there but has improved by 95%. There is now a very slight curve in the corner so it cant really be noticed on outrun and mk.

i used :

crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.568, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

The only problem is now, all the neo geo games and streetfighter games have a about 1 cm gap at top screen and the bottom of the image is slightly cropped. (please see the attached pictures)

Is possible to modify to above modeline or add another one to resolve the neo geo /cps games issue?

I am really happy with your solution so far, anything else i guess is a bonus.

I may be able to use mala with batch files to run different groovymame installations for neo geo / cps games with the standard 15khz config and all other roms to groovymame with custom modeline.

Thanks again for your help.

Ravi

[Calamity]

Hi ravi,

Setting v back porch to 1.568 is totally crazy, that's way too much, that's why games are being shifted down.

What I'd do is to create separate ranges that are adequate for the different groups of heights, like this:

crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.152, 0, 0, 192, 224, 448, 576
crt_range1    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.216, 0, 0, 225, 248, 448, 576
crt_range2    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.280, 0, 0, 249, 288, 448, 576

This will keep 224p games (neogeo, etc) into reasonable ranges, and you'll apply the required v back porch values to the higher resolutions if necessary. The above lines are just a suggestion so you see the logic, but you can subdivide the ranges into more, and apply different v back porch values if required.

You can also try reducing the v front porch to the bare minimum, to see how it works:

crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.152, 0, 0, 192, 224, 448, 576
etc.

[ravi]

Hi Calamity.

The v back porch setting 1.568 was the only value that would nearly get rid of the curve, anything lower would not work.

I will try the following crt range lines.

Please can you explain the crt range line settings, so i can create more for the other resolutions ranges. I see you repeat  448, 576 in each line?

I properly tried Groovymame for around 3-4 hours today, played some of the old classics. I was blown away and shocked how good this emulator is! The sound quality, input lag, native resolutions + custom timing = AMAZING. You brought back my childhood memory's I actually felt like I was playing the real thing on horizontal games especially Neo Geo and Capcom games.   I tried comparing my supergun + Neo geo 161 cart to my mame cab >> I found it really hard to tell the difference, when i used other mame emulators i could easily tell by the picture overscan, input lag and game speed.

Please keep up the good work and development, I will be making a donation today.

Thanks again for all your help and support.
 
Ravi

[ravi]

Hi Calamity.

I tried adjusting the v front porch to the bare minimum but i still need to set v back porch to 1.568 - so difference. ;(

I also tried the following crt range lines :

crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.568, 0, 0, 192, 224, 448, 576
crt_range1    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.216, 0, 0, 225, 248, 448, 576
crt_range2    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.128, 0.160, 1.280, 0, 0, 249, 288, 448, 576

Same issue >> outrun / MK curve nearly gone  >>> CPS / Neo Geo all have 1 cm gap at the top of screen.

Please can you provide the correct CRT range for Neo Geo / CPS so they are not effected by crt_range0 (1.568)

Many Thanks,

Ravi

[Calamity]

Neogeo games  are affected by crt_range0 because they're 224 lines tall and you are defining crt_range0 for the 192-224 lines range, so they fall inside. What you have to do is not defining an absurd value of 1.568 which equals to 24.5 lines, because that's adding fat to the upper border of the screen for no reason. I mean, shifting the picture down to avoid the curved area is cheating. Have you tried using the service menu to correct this?

My advice is: don't think of this or the other game (neo geo, etc.) think of *resolutions* (neogeo = 224, mk = 256) etc. so you now which range affects to which game.

[ravi]

Hi Calamity,

I cant get into the service menu of this version of my TV. I have exact same TV earlier version - i can get into the service menu but i still had the same issues playing around with the vert / horz settings. This curve issue is driving me around the bend lol.. Its weird how the v porch only moves by going to 1.568.. but using arcade OSD just a very slight change to v porch back does the trick.  Is it possible to convert the exact setting from Arcade OSD to crt_range ? I am guessing this is not possible?

Do you think it possible to force Groovy mame to use the stored Arcade OSD modified resolutions but with no overscan and the correct timing.  I need manage to force Groovy mame to use the Arcade OSD resolutions by providing the wrong crt_range0 but this caused switchres to disabled and display showed the usual overscan issues. Does Groovymame use the built in version of switchres to provide the correct display timing /game speed and fix any overscan issues?

Thanks,

Ravi

[Calamity]

Is it possible to convert the exact setting from Arcade OSD to crt_range ? I am guessing this is not possible?

Yes, of course you can. You just need to copy the values. I'm using your 256x224 fixed sample from above:

V front porch:  636.40 microseconds -> 0.636 ms
V sync pulse:   190.92 microseconds -> 0.191 ms
V back porch: 1591.00 microseconds -> 1.591 ms

So:

crt_range0    15625-16350, 49.5-65, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.636, 0.191, 1.591, 0, 0, 192, 224, 448, 576

This should create modelines just like the ones you modified.

The problem is that definition is not optimal, because 224p modes need a lot of padding lines. So what I was looking for was the exact balance among the bare minimum values for v front porch and v back porch, which *after* adding the padding lines by the modeline generator, would produce the exact values you get with ArcadeOSD. The idea was to find a somewhat general definition for your B&O.

Do you think it possible to force Groovy mame to use the stored Arcade OSD modified resolutions but with no overscan and the correct timing.

This is not supported. GroovyMAME generates its own modelines to your specs. The problem with "modern" CRT TVs is they contain specific hardware to deal with different PAL/NTSC timing standards which messes with our modelines and forces us to make dirty ad hoc adjustments that can't be generalized in a proper model. So for this reason, and by popular demand, custom modeline support will be added as soon as possible.