Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news


  

Author Topic: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)  (Read 13118 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« on: May 24, 2013, 04:44:32 pm »
Right. So I've been getting a lot of members in the last few months messaging me with their artwork needs.  I'm not going to call out any names in this topic, nor am I going to divulge any of my price quotes and history as I think that is confidential between me and my clients.  But there has been quite of an influx of people that are not artistically skilled at what they have planned to really "art-up" their projects, and think that it is an easy or cheap thing to do. It is not!

Now I want to explain something to those who are not familiar with the art process, I cannot speak for the other artists here that supply artwork, this is coming from my perspective -- I do custom artwork, built to your specifications and creativity from scratch. I do not handle the printing side of things (been there, done that, not doing it again), we're just talking about the content creation. Not clip-art, not licensed artwork grabbed off the net.  But art that is under the "artist interpretation" status, similar to what you'd find on deviant art or other art-community sites.

(to my past clients: I thank you for your business, and understanding of how much work is involved with art. I commend you guys, and have had a lot of fun working with you to get your projects to shine!)

On several occasions I would receive a PM from members new and old, looking to fulfill their project vision and asking me to quote them on the cost of completing that vision. Only to be snapped into reality by the cost. There seems to be quite a bit of ignorance as to how long, how much effort, and skills required to create your custom tailored visions. This topic is going to be my go-to link in explaining why custom artwork costs the amount it does.

"Why does it cost so much? I was looking to spend x amount of $$$ on this, you're just drawing it up right???
Just. <sigh>

Creating artwork is practically equivalent to the entire effort it takes to construct your project. Cutting, painting and wiring up your project is only about half the work, the other half is art.
It takes just as much planning, skills and execution to complete a piece of art, but unlike physical construction where you can watch a youtube video to figure out how to cut something, having an artistic-eye and drawing skills to creating a compelling theme is something you cannot just watch a video about, and takes YEARS to master.

"Where do you get your price-point from?"
Let's compare this to tradesmen, something that most people can relate to.  It takes a few years to become say, a carpenter -- a proper one, not some dude who just has tools and a truck and learned most of his stuff on-site.  But someone who's knowledgeable from training and schooling, does good work and has proof of said work through recommendations and examples.

Carpenters make what, average $60 an hour?  And their jobs take hours of work!

Now compare that to an artist. Artists are basically tradesmen!
It takes even more time to be an artist, who is skillful at not only creating the art, but also knowing what the right choices are esthetically and has the design sense to put together something that is appealing to the audience.  Not only do you have to have the techniques to create the art, but you also have to possess the knowledge of what works together and how to arrange and compose an image.
It takes years to master!

So why would someone like a carpenter, cabinet maker, or a plumber be any different than an artist in terms of pay?  Why is art something people regard as cheap labour?  It takes just as much time, skill and knowledge to be one. And the actual projects creation takes just as long in terms of hours to create something from scratch!

"But as an artist, isn't this fun for you?"
Sure, it's fun. But because I have fun doing it, does it mean I should be paid less for it?  No. That's called taking advantage of someone.

"But I already paid x for my build, artwork shouldn't cost that much!"
Well you may have not planned your project out, with including the cost of custom work.

"Maybe I'll just do it myself. I can download a copy of photoshop and I think there are a bunch of Bob Ross videos I can watch. I can learn how to become an artist like you in hours!"
Be my guest.
This is like saying to a mechanic, after he assessed your car fixes and gave you a price that you have tools at home and can probably just "read the manual" to fix it. That's like one of the biggest "diss".

I can guarantee you that it will take more than a few hours to do what us artists do (time=money), and in the end, you'll end up with an outcome that is "good enough" rather than "that's totally awesome!". Sure you'll save actual money, but to get there you'd have to go through a learning curve that some people just don't have time and patience for.


"I want to have a bunch of characters from all my favourite games featured on my cabinet. But I've got a small-form/bartop/mini cabinet, so is the price the same for something smaller?

Yes. The price is the same!
The artwork doesn't change just because the print-size is different. The content is still just as involved to create on a full-sized cabinet as it is on a small-form cab.
If someone who was building a full-sized cabinet wanted the same amount of artwork (same amount of characters, effects, colours...etc) as a person building a bartop, it would take the same amount of hours and effort to make. 

"What is actually involved, so I know what I'm paying for?"

Ok, the meat-and-potatoes.
Here is an excerpt from my standard policy that I send to those interested in commissioning me:

  • I take as much information to start-off as possible. Theme info, reference images, plus dimensions of the CP (Button/joystick placement needed), marquee, etc... There is some time needed for research in art-style, or subject matter before we start.
  • Then a rough penciled First-pass is generated, I get you to comment on it, change/add anything you want me to. There is time involved in getting your vision together, and a lot of communication in-between.
  • We do a Second and Third-pass, these are clean-up stages where things like line-weights, composition, scale sizes are tweaked and cleared up. More communication is needed here where you can critique, suggest changes based on what you want. Sometimes I throw rough colour onto it to get an idea of the colour scheme,  before moving onto the proper colouring pass. (this is subjective to the art-style of course, i.e. Cartoony, realistic, comic...etc.)
  • A Colour pass is then completed (shading, shadowing, outlines, etc...)
  • After that, a Final-pass and vectorizing is then completed - this adds sufficient time to finalize, but you can opt for a non-vector'd image to help speed up time (be sure of this, as a non-vector'd image will only look good at the destined print-size. Vectored images can be scaled infinitely without any loss to quality). Finalizing the image can also take a little bit of extra time to complete

In the end, this takes many hours.  I do this as a service to the community, on the side of my fulltime job. Time away from my friends and family, so that you can have a pretty looking cabinet for you and your family to enjoy for years.  Sure I take a commission for it, I have to, 'cause with the amount of work involve I cannot sanely do this for free. There have been cases where I would do a bit of art for people here for free, but that is mostly small effort things like a logo, or a card for their mom. And mainly for members who have been active contributors to the community.

Years ago, I saw a trend of people being frustrated with the idea of having to create art themselves. You see it all the time now, people who post their CP or Marquee designs in this forum, asking people for critique and help, 'cause they don't know what direction to go in, or what to add/change/replace...even for tips on how to actually use photoshop or sketch-up or whatever software package.
I figured I'd use my god-given and years-of-trained-skills to supply a service to people here so that the hassle can be eliminated, and the outcome is professional and completely fitted to your needs. And in return, the pay helps keep my arcade hobby and collection going.

It's a fair trade. I do not gouge you on the prices. You get a very good rate in consideration of how many hours and skills it takes to make.

Lets compare this to artwork already being sold for cabinets.
Say for example, thisoldgame.com. (no slight on Rich -- I love his work and his shop -- I'm just breaking down a comparison) Rich has reproduction side artwork listed anywhere between $100-200.  You get 2 physical sheets of printed art. Now depending on the quality of print, the actual cost of materials can vary. This is for artwork already out there, created for dedicated cabinets of their types.

The average cost printing of quality paper for side-art that I've seen is around the $100 mark for a full sheet. So say you're paying another $100 for the actual art content, and that's for existing art!  Now add  the cost of custom creating and communication time, and my prices are not that far off!!


"If you don't print, what do I get then?"
Some people do print as well. I personally don't because it's a huge hassle that I do not want take on again.

  • You will get a high-resolution digital format (PSD, AI, or vector-form PDF -- customer's choice) that is entirely owned by you. It's the easiest transaction. I hold no ties to the artwork, as far as I'm concerned it's completely yours to do with what you want...make t-shirts, print out posters, tattoo it to your forehead...this is Artist Interpretation art, so licensing is not an issue nor applies. It's equivalent to those tee-shirt shops that have reproduction images of bands, videogames, products.  You see them all over the place in malls, and those images are not licensed to those shops.
  • The work will be exactly fitted to the cabinet dimensions that you must provide, all you have to do it get it printed. I size it exactly to your specifications, it's a no-hassle feature that all you have to do is hand a printer the file.

Hey, the CPO/Marquee/Sideart/etc looks too plain...can you add/change x?
Sure can! In the end the artwork is your vision. Sometimes less is more.
But there are things to consider when designing your art-set:

When creating a full cabinet of artwork, you have to balance the amount of detail when looking at it as a whole.  This goes for any project that requires multiple components of high-level detailed art to work together.  Most inexperienced folks treat each individual piece of art as it's own self-contained image, not taking into account the entire project's aesthetic and how it balances out.  For arcade art, the key is to take a step back and analyse the cabinet altogether, how each part works with each other. This is one of the reasons I tend to "mock up" the cabinet by photoshopping these images onto a photograph of the cab, to see how it all fits together.
Also, using the old painter's "Squint" technique is incredibly useful. By squinting your eyes when looking at the art, you can get a sense of where the details should be amped-up, or taken away. This is incredibly useful for clarity of the image, and balancing contrast. Because when looking through squinted eyes, you get the core essence of the image. Similar to sketching, where you breakdown the elements into primitive shapes to figure out proportions.

Another component when deciding a vision for your artwork is taking into account how arcade games were handled in the hay-days. They were meant to sell.
Side art was primarily the most "flashiest", while Control Panels and Marquees were the most informative.  When creating a marquee, artists had to make sure the title was clear and concise, without clutter so that the audience could easily read and recognize what game it was among all the other cabinets around it.  This is why you see a lot of classic marquees have much simplified graphics than side and control panel art.
_____________________________________________________

Artwork makes a project complete, it's a vital part of an arcade's appeal. Lots of folks underestimate the creativity and time it takes to get artwork looking good and "non-kitchy".
It's the difference of making your cabinet look "cool", to making it look "holy cow, that's fricken awesome!".

Anyone who wants to dispute any of my statements above, please do so. I would happily argue my case, TO THE DEATH, so that everyone can have a clear, educated idea of what these commissions involve.

Thank you.  :cheers:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 10:15:19 pm by opt2not »

mcseforsale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
  • Creepy Mario Dude
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2013, 05:40:17 pm »
I'd say those who hassle graphic artists about price should look into the price(s) of the tools used to create decent art.  Multiply that times the amount of training it takes to be good at it (which as a 24 year IT guy was ASTOUNDINGLY hard to learn even basics that I used), then raise that to the power of the creativity that it takes to make a vision and then execute it within these difficult tools and you will come up with a price that is several orders of magnitude larger than the quote you were probably given.

There is a reason why people do this as a full-time job.  Because it is difficult to do well.

AJ

drventure

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4131
  • Laser Death Ray Bargain Bin! Make me an offer!
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2013, 06:00:34 pm »
I'd say those who hassle graphic artists about price should look into the price(s) of the tools used to create decent art.  Multiply that times the amount of training it takes to be good at it (which as a 24 year IT guy was ASTOUNDINGLY hard to learn even basics that I used), then raise that to the power of the creativity that it takes to make a vision and then execute it within these difficult tools and you will come up with a price that is several orders of magnitude larger than the quote you were probably given.

There is a reason why people do this as a full-time job.  Because it is difficult to do well.

AJ

Amen to that. Just getting the little bits I do in PS or whatever takes ages. Course, that's mostly because I haven't invested the craploads of time it takes to get proficient with those tools, but hey, that's not worth anything, right  ;)

opt2not, Ond, topjimmycooks, and there's a ton more here that dang well have the chops for art that I definitely do not.

You get what you pay for. Just watch an episode of bad ink sometime  :D

yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15913
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2013, 06:44:18 pm »
Hear hear. It's like when people want you to build them a cab and then balk when it's not $200.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Well Fed Games

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1882
  • Delicious!
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2013, 06:56:19 pm »
Opt, I hope you didn't feel dissed when I approached you but decided to do it myself... in my case, I did some light graphic design at a previous job but wasn't sure if I wanted to refine those skills; once I decided to pursue game design I decided I needed to learn Illustrator better (and I have been... I actually have a fluid grasp of the pen tool now!) and arcade art was the perfect excuse. Of course, if I had hired you I could be applying art right now...  :banghead:  ;D

Opt's work speaks for itself, but after doing some initial communication about a commission I can say he is great to work with, too. 

Custom art is so much cooler than arcade character clip art all over a cab!
Completed projects: Pac bartop (Plug & Play), 30th Anniversary Pac cab (MAME), Point Blank (PS1), Centipede (arcade hardware- light restore), VS. Super Mario Bros (arcade hardware- light restore) Tetris Cocktail (SNES), Arcade Classics upright (60-in-1, then MAME), Multi-Raiden (arcade hardware). Pac Man vs.(Gamecube),

Working on: Pinball Re-theme, Homebrew arcade arena shooter

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2013, 07:38:20 pm »
Thanks for the support guys.  :notworthy:

I'm trying real hard to keep my PM responses tactful.
It's frustrating sometimes, so by starting this thread, at least there can be some light shed on the issue rather than a lot of back-door discussions of me trying to explain the process effort.

It's good to have some of the more experienced guys like yourselves, chime-in and vouch for not only me, but for everyone who does commissioned artwork.

Opt, I hope you didn't feel dissed when I approached you but decided to do it myself...

No, it's cool brother.  I wasn't offended by you, 'cause you were actually really nice about it all. Both you and Le Chuck were very understanding and respectful about the work and prices.  <hugs>

I've had a few people reply along the lines of "it doesn't seem that hard to create myself", or "you shouldn't be charging this much, if it's something you do all the time anyways". 
And of course a slew of people message me, we exchange some PMs back and forth till I pull out the price quote, then it's *crickets*...this is mainly from newbie members.

Thats why now I pull out the standard price list right away, to save on the PM'ing time back and forth. No point in discussing it further if they don't like the starting price-point. Nip it in the bud!

Ond

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2013, 10:31:50 pm »
Well said!  I am 100% behind this.  I was recently asked to do some arcade related artwork on commission (not by any member here to my knowledge), I quoted an amount which was way below any hourly rate I could ever live on (if in fact I had to do it for a living) and the 'customer' balked at it but indicated I should proceed.

Long story short, I produced a draft release for a final fixed price i.e. not to exceed a quoted amount even with revisions and then heard nothing further from the customer. Nada.   Nice one.   It's why I generally prefer to do the occasional art gratis for members here just to give something back to the forum.  I recently showed some artwork I did for a member here to a work mate who has another mate (in full time graphic design and drawing)  to get an idea of what would be charged in the market place.  The designer said he'd charge ~ $2000 for a similar effort!

My drawing methods may differ from opt2not's,  he hand draws the initial concept and then develops it from there.  I generally generate objects from scratch using software and then digitally paint & texture over etc.  Either way, it's a whole lot of work and time.

Whilst I have done some repro artwork on request for folks here, the bottom line is, fully custom drawn, original, commissioned artwork is just that, a one off, unique, with long term value well beyond the prices folk like opt2not charge.

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1289
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2013, 10:50:40 pm »
Ex-freelance web & graphics designer here, so I can totally sympathize with the OP!  In fact, the whole customer part of the trade is one of the big reasons I switched careers.

One thing I would comment on is the "fun" aspect of it.  I went from things as a hobby to pro and found while things were fun as a hobby, they became much less so professionally.  I think it's a combination of doing work for other people, doing it all the time, and taking money for it.  Being subject to client deadlines and demands (and lord help you if you get an "endless revisionism"-type client), adds pressure and stress.  And when you start doing the tasks over and over and over... it really does start to feel less enjoyable and more like work.  And I don't know what it is about doing something for money, but that also seems to take away enjoyment.  Something to do with the psychology of intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation perhaps?

At any rate, that was a good read and good luck, opt2not!

Sjaak

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 675
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 08:26:17 am »
Hear hear. It's like when people want you to build them a cab and then balk when it's not $200.

I get that all the time, $200 doesn't even cover the material cost

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3465
  • North East, US
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 09:56:16 am »
Very well put Opt.
  The thing is with a carpenter, they learn they're trade during 8 hour shifts and maybe some trade schooling but art is a life style and while yes it is fun, it's still a lot of work.
Keep up the good work.

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2013, 10:08:31 am »
I think Opt's prices are more than reasonable based on the quality of his work.

The cab fell through so his commission fell through FWIW. People that can't see the value of artistic effort frustrate me to no end as well.

Right on Opt!

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3465
  • North East, US
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2013, 02:03:46 pm »
Unfortunately the whole idea of expecting five star meals at McDonald prices spills into most trades.
  I have a side business doing security systems, cctv, etc. and people go and see these cheapy systems for sale at Costco. Then they call me and wonder why my price would be so high.
  I get the same thing on arcade repairs too.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2013, 04:51:08 pm »
Long story short, I produced a draft release for a final fixed price i.e. not to exceed a quoted amount even with revisions and then heard nothing further from the customer. Nada.   Nice one.   It's why I generally prefer to do the occasional art gratis for members here just to give something back to the forum.  I recently showed some artwork I did for a member here to a work mate who has another mate (in full time graphic design and drawing)  to get an idea of what would be charged in the market place.  The designer said he'd charge ~ $2000 for a similar effort!
Thanks for chiming in Ond!
One of the things I do before I start anything is collect a 50% non-refundable deposit at the beginning. I've been burnt like this a few times before, and it really sucks after spending all that time and effort. This deposit is for payment security and solidifying my time working on this, as well as showing a token of commitment to completion from my clients.  A safety-net if you will. ;)

My drawing methods may differ from opt2not's,  he hand draws the initial concept and then develops it from there.  I generally generate objects from scratch using software and then digitally paint & texture over etc.  Either way, it's a whole lot of work and time.

Whilst I have done some repro artwork on request for folks here, the bottom line is, fully custom drawn, original, commissioned artwork is just that, a one off, unique, with long term value well beyond the prices folk like opt2not charge.
:cheers: Kind words from a an amazing builder and artist!  Thanks!

One thing I would comment on is the "fun" aspect of it.  I went from things as a hobby to pro and found while things were fun as a hobby, they became much less so professionally.  I think it's a combination of doing work for other people, doing it all the time, and taking money for it.  Being subject to client deadlines and demands (and lord help you if you get an "endless revisionism"-type client), adds pressure and stress.  And when you start doing the tasks over and over and over... it really does start to feel less enjoyable and more like work.  And I don't know what it is about doing something for money, but that also seems to take away enjoyment.  Something to do with the psychology of intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation perhaps?
I feel that way sometimes, but luckily with this type of artwork, most of my commissions were fairly open to my design. I mean, there is a bit of a vision that most people have, but on many occasions I've had a lot of freedom with how I interpret their vision. Which really keeps it fun, and less constrictive!

One thing the money aspect does for me, is it motivates me outside doing my fulltime job (with OT!) to come home and work on during my free-time. Without that carrot, I would probably lag a bit on the work time-line.
Great feedback!  :applaud:

I think Opt's prices are more than reasonable based on the quality of his work.

The cab fell through so his commission fell through FWIW. People that can't see the value of artistic effort frustrate me to no end as well.

Right on Opt!
Unfortunately the whole idea of expecting five star meals at McDonald prices spills into most trades.
  I have a side business doing security systems, cctv, etc. and people go and see these cheapy systems for sale at Costco. Then they call me and wonder why my price would be so high.
  I get the same thing on arcade repairs too.

Cheers bros! This is something I combat all the time, but it's refreshing when I get people that approach me who really do understand the value of hard-work, and skills needed for something like this. And I do tend to give those people a bit extra, including consultation of their actual project build.  When I do these types of commissions, I get down-right obsessed with them and really put all my soul into their work. It tends to be a lot of energy, but when I see the artwork applied to the cabinets, it really makes it all worth it!
 :cheers:

SavannahLion

  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5986
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 01:36:01 pm »
  The thing is with a carpenter, they learn they're trade during 8 hour shifts and maybe some trade schooling

Just to nitpick and not to try and get off topic.

Only the :censored: ones learn their trade during 8-hour shifts. My father was a carpenter/foreman and worked for some big and famous names back in the day. The man had zero time to teach anything to anybody while on any job. If you wanted to work for him for good money, you were going to go to school for that trade, period.

Otherwise :cheers:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 01:38:18 pm by SavannahLion »

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3465
  • North East, US
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 05:37:50 pm »
  The thing is with a carpenter, they learn they're trade during 8 hour shifts and maybe some trade schooling

Just to nitpick and not to try and get off topic.

Only the :censored: ones learn their trade during 8-hour shifts. My father was a carpenter/foreman and worked for some big and famous names back in the day. The man had zero time to teach anything to anybody while on any job. If you wanted to work for him for good money, you were going to go to school for that trade, period.

Otherwise :cheers:

Yes, that is true. And to everything there is an exception.
In my trade, I'm always trying to learn more, whether during the work day or not.

But with art, it often seems like its a life calling almost.
It often seems like an artist starts as a child with this love for their art and it just grows and grows into a career and much more.

Tha_liks

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 04:49:28 pm »
Thanks for the support guys.  :notworthy:

I'm trying real hard to keep my PM responses tactful.
It's frustrating sometimes, so by starting this thread, at least there can be some light shed on the issue rather than a lot of back-door discussions of me trying to explain the process effort.

It's good to have some of the more experienced guys like yourselves, chime-in and vouch for not only me, but for everyone who does commissioned artwork.

Opt, I hope you didn't feel dissed when I approached you but decided to do it myself...

No, it's cool brother.  I wasn't offended by you, 'cause you were actually really nice about it all. Both you and Le Chuck were very understanding and respectful about the work and prices.  <hugs>

I've had a few people reply along the lines of "it doesn't seem that hard to create myself", or "you shouldn't be charging this much, if it's something you do all the time anyways". 
And of course a slew of people message me, we exchange some PMs back and forth till I pull out the price quote, then it's *crickets*...this is mainly from newbie members.

Thats why now I pull out the standard price list right away, to save on the PM'ing time back and forth. No point in discussing it further if they don't like the starting price-point. Nip it in the bud!



So what is your standard price list  ???

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2013, 05:14:02 pm »
  I'm not going to call out any names in this topic, nor am I going to divulge any of my price quotes and history as I think that is confidential between me and my clients.

If you'd like a quote, send me a PM with the details of what you're looking for.

AGarv

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 225
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2013, 09:10:15 pm »
When they ask what $50 brings, send over a montage of clip art arcade characters from different systems and eras.  The donkey kong / Killer Instinct / Mario / storm trooper mash up on a star field background.  Maybe throw in the chef from Food Fight too, you can never have enough arcade characters on your bezel.

jibmums

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 12:41:38 am »
I could not agree more with all the above posts.  As a graphic designer of screenprinted garments, I get to deal everyday with "artists" who own a bootleg copy of Illustrator or Photoshop (or as they usually call it, "Adobe") who snag a few low-resolution jpegs from online and throw them together.  When I inform them that it will take 1-2 hours to make their artwork usable for screen printing, they indignantly want to know why their "camera-ready" artwork is unusable as-is.  Perhaps I will point them to this thread, same basic concept, different medium.

On a related note, I highly suggest the "clients from hell" website for stories & anecdotes in a similar vein: http://clientsfromhell.net/

twistedsymphony

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 579
  • Play stupid games... win stupid prizes.
    • solid-orange.com
    • CollectorsEdition.org
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 09:06:30 am »
I've done a lot of minor graphic work myself but when I need a really professional looking logo or a bigger project done, I get myself to a graphics designer... in my experience it's worth every penny.  :applaud:

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2013, 01:29:10 pm »
On a related note, I highly suggest the "clients from hell" website for stories & anecdotes in a similar vein: http://clientsfromhell.net/
:lol
Awesome site! The guys at work and I are having a laugh. :D

On the topic of bootlegged PS version: I should mention, anyone looking to get a legit copy I suggest watching eBay for them. You can usually find complete suites of CS3 or 4 (which are just as good) for pretty cheap. Adobe sometimes has upgrade deals as well, so you could get a pretty up-to-date version for MUCH less than retail prices.

Monkeyvoodoo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • I swear I can stop at one. Or two.
    • Take No Quarter Production Diary
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2013, 02:52:26 pm »

On a related note, I highly suggest the "clients from hell" website for stories & anecdotes in a similar vein: http://clientsfromhell.net/

I lost two hours of productivity today thanks to that site. Thank you! 😄


Sent from where ever I happen to be.

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2013, 01:24:20 pm »
what I do is ask my customers what the budget is and kind of requirement they have. if I have to vectorize anything then Id ask for more $. otherwise its exactly what my thread title says. photoshopper for hire. you want bunch of things put together and you dont know how then you hire me.

this exactly how I got into this mess in the first place. back in the day I emailed like 20 people to see if I can get someone to put something together for my cabinet but never got a reply. had to learn things from scratch.

 I try to use very high resolution pictures and vector backgrounds. usually people are happy with the result. you are not paying for any of the source material, you are paying for the time and effort(and all that email reading) which is very very reasonable.

Ive done things for like $20 before lol.. (was fun..I dont mind)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 01:28:52 pm by SNAAKE »

jdbailey1206

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1903
  • Hello pants.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2013, 04:11:38 pm »
This is an excellent rant and should not just be limited to artwork.  The way I see it is someone is offering you a service and you should, as a "customer", be willing to do anything to help out who is providing this service for you and accept what they are charging for their work.  Keep in mind there are people out there who are going to rip you off but with a little research you should be able to see if someone is truly ripping you off.  And chances are the people on here are not doing this for a living.  They are doing this in their spare time.  Be patient with those who are willing to help you(which seems to be everyone) and with a little negotiation you should be able to walk away happy with what the person on the other end has to offer.  And keep an open mind.  You may not be able to do artwork, or have an extra 200 dollars laying around for said artwork, but may be a wiz at something else like wiring.  Offer trade to the person willing to do artwork for you.  As my father always says, "Communication.  It's a beautiful thing."

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3465
  • North East, US
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 04:29:44 pm »
One of the funniest things I hear from time to time is " I'm not sure what these things cost, but that seems too high"

Maximus

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1391
  • Plans are for fools!!!!
    • Arcade Icons
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 05:43:08 pm »
Great rant, it's the reason why I changed from 20 years in advertising as a Creative Director to a network administrator.

20 Years of talentless individuals hiring me (my company) to do work they cannot, then tell you how to design (we'll call that 'customer revisions') like....   

Make the logo bigger...
But with more white space
Can you make it 'nice and clean' looking
And add these 455 elements we all thought of in yesterday's latte-fueled brain enema meeting.
It's going to cost how much?
Can't we just use stock photography?
Here's an image I found on Google can we use that?
What does "only 10 DPI" mean?
Can we blow it up bigger?
We think it should have a Facebook Logo on it, and our URL, and phone number, and P.O. Box, and this small Bible of legal disclaimers...
But make it look cleaner.

Needless to say it's the same reason I refuse to do design work for anyone any more, family, friends, paying strangers - like a beaten dog I know when to quietly slip out of the line of fire when people start looking around for someone to 'just whip up a design' for them.

These days I'm a network administrator "Hrmmmmmm, have you tried turning it off and on again?"

 :soapbox:

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 06:10:16 pm »
this goes for my xbox modding too

dudes have NO idea what kind of work is involved and the cost of parts. they'd offer you like half the $ :banghead:

Maximus

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1391
  • Plans are for fools!!!!
    • Arcade Icons
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2013, 06:13:19 pm »
And don't even get me started on 'hey I want an arcade machine like yours, will you build me one'  :dizzy:

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2013, 06:15:35 pm »
this goes for my xbox modding too

dudes have NO idea what kind of work is involved and the cost of parts. they'd offer you like half the $ :banghead:

I heard it was really easy, I'd do it myself but I'm lazy.  Will you take $40 shipped?   :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:

















Is mine done yet  >:D

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 10:31:57 pm »
Heh...


he



You know I as kidding, right Snaake?



Right?


Don't torch my box man!

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 11:17:53 pm »
 :laugh2:

naw you are good and yours is easy anyway. xbox 360 is like 10x harder. I will have it out probably wednesday when I go to the post office after work.

jdbailey1206

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1903
  • Hello pants.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2013, 07:43:19 am »
Maximus-

I agree with you.  (Le Chuck don't read this next part)  I went to school for Digital Animation.  I had started drawing when I was 12 idolizing all the big names in comic book illustration.  I proceeded to teach myself how to draw by these guys (perspective etc.) and I was super excited when I was 18 to be accepted to 4 major art schools through the country.  By the end of my 1st semester of my senior year I came to the conclusion that I couldn't use my "talent" for someone else and just gave up on it.  It really bothers me because I feel like I have neglected my art because, like you said, everyone was forcing me to do what I didn't want to do and it ultimately grew sour on me.  (So sour I now work for a demolition contractor.  NO WE DON'T BLOW THINGS UP!   :laugh:  )  Now 15 years later I don't think I could draw a stick figure and I begged an "unnamed source" (seriously Le Chuck why are you still reading) to make my CP and it has made me a hypocrite because 15 years ago I could have done it in my sleep.  Anyway.  That's it.  Sorry for sounding like a 12 year old emo kid.

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2013, 08:09:36 am »
In 2002 I was at a bus stop in Monterrey CA at 6am in my Army class B uniform.  I was travelling under orders at that time.  Two old scraggily looking dudes came up and asked what I did.  I told them I was a sculptor.  They both kinda looked at me funny and like an idiot I said, "oh, you mean for the Army?".  They laughed and told me that I was "---smurfing----a right" to think like that and to never stop following my passion.  Not bad advice from a coupla grungers out beach bumming it.  Fast forward more than a decade, I'm still rocking the uniform and am proud of my profession but I'm still an artist (I'm just old enough now to know not to introduce myself as one - such a self inflated little ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- I was  ;) ).   Never stop making, never stop creating.  Not everything I do is show room worthy but every now and then I get lucky and something awesome falls out of my head.  That's what keeps me at it, the thrill of creation. 

TopJimmyCooks

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2093
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2013, 08:59:41 am »
opt2not, Ond, topjimmycooks, and there's a ton more here that dang well have the chops for art that I definitely do not.

Uh, I appreciate it Doc, but one of these things is not like the other . . . I'm the background + clipart + text hack guy, not the real artist like opt, ond, pixelhugger, etc.  I only take other people's stuff and remix it - I know I'm not a true content creator. 

I'm usually too cheap to buy custom art but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what goes into it and the skills and experience it takes. 

jmike

  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 976
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2013, 09:24:43 am »
:laugh2:

naw you are good and yours is easy anyway. xbox 360 is like 10x harder. I will have it out probably wednesday when I go to the post office after work.

 :applaud: :applaud:

I hope that's not the one I was looking at   :bat
PM sent

 :cheers:

Maximus

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1391
  • Plans are for fools!!!!
    • Arcade Icons
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2013, 12:14:21 pm »
Never stop making, never stop creating.  Not everything I do is show room worthy but every now and then I get lucky and something awesome falls out of my head.  That's what keeps me at it, the thrill of creation.

This.

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2013, 12:42:51 pm »
:laugh2:

naw you are good and yours is easy anyway. xbox 360 is like 10x harder. I will have it out probably wednesday when I go to the post office after work.

 :applaud: :applaud:

I hope that's not the one I was looking at   :bat
PM sent

 :cheers:

its not, he sent his in. yours is still on the side. I will PM you when I have info on that too.

(sorry little OT..go on with artwork rants)

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3465
  • North East, US
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2013, 12:48:15 pm »
I'm one who's kinda getting back into the fine world of art.
As far back as I can remember, I was drawing. In school I was known as being talented in drawing and i expected to be in the art field when i grew up. Somewhere along the way after high school I just kinda dropped out of it.
   My drawing time, the time of day I was most inspired and really drew my heart out was from 11pm til 6 am or so.
 Give me a pack of Marlboros, a few Mountain Dews and Nick at Nite on the TV and I was good to go.
  Naturally I couldn't keep this up and raise a family.
Besides as soon as someone else asks for a particular drawing or in anyway sets the rules for the work at hand, it somehow voids the whole thing for me and I get creatively blocked.

I have always had the strongest need to create and after drawing, I think that's why I've headed into electronics.

Any how, I've been getting back into drawing a little bit at a time ( no more Marlboros though and less Mountain Dew)
I really enjoy doing graphics on the computer now too but a lot of what I do there is a bit more of taking what's already out there and mixing and changing.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:50:25 pm by mgb »

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2013, 01:34:50 pm »
I just read this thread today. And to be honest, Opt. I really don't know how I can best comment. I feel I have to say something. I think you are overvaluing your artwork here. I don't even know what you charge, but if you think that your art is worth more than a person is willing to pay, then you just have the wrong attitude about your work. As an artist, your work is worth nothing, $0.00, until another person comes along and says it is worth money to them to have it. It is hard to explain, but it is sorta a zen attitude that I think any successful artist needs to have.

I come from an art family. My Mom's been a professional Artist on and off again for many years. My Bro is an art teacher. My sis-in-law has a radio program about art. I went to a college and have many friends in the art program, some went on very far, others failed and took work elsewhere. While I am not an artist myself, I have done a number of graphic design project professionally and will not take another job again because I know first hand how frustrating it is dealing with people in something that deals with personal taste so much. I have seen enough of your work to agree that you are extremely talented and your work is very good, and your talent is very valuable to this community.

I totally get your rant, really I do. At the same time, I have heard that rant from art friends what seems like 100's of times. Just being honest with you, my empathy meter almost always drains to empty when I hear the "They don't understand the value of art" rant. As I was trying to say above, your art is only worth what that person is willing to pay for it. They may only be willing to pay a measly $20 for it, well, that means your art is worth only $20, Even if it costs you $200 of personal labor and equipment expenses. That is the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- end of the stick that an artist has to live with. Doesn't mean you have to bend over for those people, but they are not at fault for not knowing how the process works. They just don't, and probably will never appreciate your work. Until you accept the truth that your work is both valuable and worthless at the same time, you are gonna be unnecessarily blaming a lot of people for not being experts in your field.

And I do understand you are in an horrid position trying to prove the value of your work. Custom work is easier to sell if you are a known artist doing work on a physical medium, but doing independent digital work in a graphic design word, that's a VERY tough sell.

I do have to point out, you are making things very hard on yourself by not revealing your prices at all. I totally get why you do it that way, but people who are not art savvy think there is not much to the process, and there is no variation in cost or time to you. I'm gonna say right here that people who don't get it are gonna keep letting you down unless you give them some expectations before asking them to PM you. You don't have bracket your work in exact prices, but I highly recommend you lay out some samples and their prices so people can get a ballpark, and you can point out exactly where price variances come from. I know before Melissa was doing carvings as a business, but doing work mainly here, I had a good idea of how much I could get for what prices for her work without needing a quote. Do yourself a favor and start doing that. It will cut back on the PMs that lead to no where.

Sorry if I sounded a bit callous, but that's the opposite of the truth. I have seen a lot of crazy good artistic talent in my life struggle to prove the value of their work. I think very highly of you and appreciate you are here and doing what you are doing. Don't let the PM's that lead nowhere get you down, man.  :afro:

Maximus

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1391
  • Plans are for fools!!!!
    • Arcade Icons
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 05:30:05 pm »
Vigo while your point is extremely well presented and obviously from experience I'd just want to point out that while the value of art as a 'product' for sale is subject to the value scale of a potential buyer, someone's time is something they can certainly place a value on.

I've only come to that conclusion over the years of being burned in the same way, if people ask me to do art, web, graphic, cab design etc etc I just tell them how many hours plus materials cost. Then when they ask me how much I charge per hour I tell them, this way they know WHAT they are paying for - my time - a tangible measurable line item. That dollar per hour cost factors in the skills involved and also the personality of the potential client (you get very good at reading that early on too).

Since choosing this route I find that I do very little (if any) design work for people as rates starting at $120 an hour tend to make people think about pursuing other options. But should the situation ever come around, there's no question between myself and my client what they are paying for.

If they don't agree to these terms, I don't do the job.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 05:34:45 pm by Maximus »

selfie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 177
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2013, 06:09:31 pm »
Vigo has a point, but that really only applies to "art for art's sake". Opt is talking about commissioned work based on a client's request and revised accordingly. It is not his fault if the brief was crappy.

I build signage and try to inform my clients why their idea won't work or won't look any good but constantly get "The customer is always right" attitude despite my decade or so of experience suggesting otherwise.

There is nothing more frustrating than someone that undervalues your experience and knowledge. Leading with a "what's your budget?" question generally saves me plenty of time.

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3465
  • North East, US
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2013, 06:36:46 pm »
Vigo,
  You bring up a good point and I definitely agree about the costs up front, that's important.
  I however don't completely agree the art being worth $20 if that's what someone says its worth.
  There are many people who wanna low ball everything. In my experiences of communications systems in construction, these people are usually the ones that charge top dollar for their services while expecting everyone else to give them a break on price. Sometimes you have to sway a little or you lose the job and someone else swoops in for the low ball.
  But just because someone unrealistically thinks something is worth less, doesn't make it worth less.
   Maybe things are a little fuzzier with art, it's not like with manufacturing or construction services where there is somewhat of a standard of pricing.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 07:07:20 pm by mgb »

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2013, 06:56:26 pm »
I don't really buy vigo's point of view.  There is a difference between good art and bad art.  There are compositional and stylistic elements that aren't all "in the eye of the beholder".  If I decided that an air conditioner is only worth $20 does that make it so?  No, because the market supports a higher cost.  The same argument can be made for anything.  I don't give a rip about gold, but it has a value and that value is market driven.  To tie that back into my initial statement art, due to the fact that there are quantifiable elements to it, has a market value.  Opt is always getting low balled and it gets on his nerves.  If a gold dealer always had guys telling him that his yellow metal was only worth $20 an ounce he'd get tired of it too, and he'd hold out because he knows the real market driven worth of what he has.  It's the same with good artists.  Pure gold is worth more than unrefined, ACs that cool are worth more than those that don't, and art that is fundamentally sound is worth more than art that isn't - regardless of what a casual party says. 

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2013, 07:17:24 pm »
Vigo,
  You bring up a good point and I definitely agree about the costs up front, that's important.
  I however don't completely agree the art being worth $20 if that's what someone says its worth.

I have a hard time explaining it, but what I mean about art being worth $20 if that is what someone says it is, that is more of a frame of mind to keep as an artist. Meaning, if someone else doesn't see the value of your work, it is not that they just need to know better, it is just that they do not value that art like the artist does. Two similar paintings by two artists can vary in price from $10 to $10,000. I am not suggesting Opt sell his work for $20, more just that he will cope with these people more if he takes a different perspective and accepts that they are not the people who value his work at the level that makes it worth his time rather than get angry that all the work he is doing is not appreciated for what it is. I know these rants have to come out after a while, but from my experience, it is better to just take a dose of humility and not get offended when someone wants to pay $20 for what you feel would be $500 worth of art. I do agree completely about PITA customers in the art buying world, and it can be draining to deal with.

The problem when it comes to pricing art there is absolutely no standard. The are far more artists than demand for art, and they all range in every factor imaginable. Skill, methods used, education, medium, you name it. And Maximus, you are right about time being a measurable factor, but the problem is that a customers value of that time varies wildly. I know I could call up 3 friends who are all talented artists, and ask them what it would cost them to do a 24" painting of Rambo eating a fruit salad. I am pretty sure one friend would do it for $20 because he is bored and it sounds like a fun thing to paint, and another friend would be $500 because knows that is what he could sell it for on gallery, and another friend would do it for free but it would end up looking more like a painting of Pat Sajak riding a gazelle. Oh, and the guy who charges $500 would probably only spend a 20 minutes on the painting. He would cut out a picture a Rambo and paint a fruit salad in his hand, because that is his style.

Also, art labor can't be compared 1:1 with skilled labor like like an electrician or carpenter. Those roles have a set of standardized codes and laws they must adhere to for the work to qualify. They must also posses exact certifications to even do the job. An artist can do custom work, but if the commissioner of that art ends up not liking the artist's interpretation, they are out of a lot of money without being happy with the product they paid for.

All I can say is that being an artist is is tough. Working independently as an artist can be even harder because you have to fill the role of salesman and marketeer. Props to you guys who deal with that grind.  :cheers:

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2013, 07:45:24 pm »
@ Le Chuck, Hopefully I clarified my point a little bit more in the above post. Because I don't think I am too much contrary to your view. I agree that there is good art and bad art, and Opt's work is definitely good. I'm guessing most of Opt's turnaways are not art dealers and did not PM him for a work of art, they PM'ed him because they had a job that cannot be simply photoshopped together. They had a cool idea for sideart, but either didn't want the same picture of Ryu as those "other" cabs or they couldn't find a good picture of Donky Kong violating ms. pac man on Google. It is a completely different perspective they are coming from, and were not expecting to be quoted for a custom art piece. I don't think it is intentional low balling at all.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 07:46:58 pm by Vigo »

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2013, 07:51:19 pm »
I wasn't trying to argue or belabor, just diverge.  Your clarification did help tho.  I spent a lot of college in lectures about that very topic.  Most of it is a wash tho - I was a terrible student during those years  ;)

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2013, 08:03:56 pm »
No formal education on art here. Mostly learned from family. My college lectures were on....um....hotels and such. Nothing too intellectually stimulatin', can't remember much else. I remember a lecture on big-headed people. Oh, I can't forget the lectures on sex stuff. Stayed awake for those.

Ond

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2013, 08:34:09 pm »
For my part I don't take offence at some peoples ignorance of the effort involved in customized art, it's just slightly annoying.  Also, if someone can get a work done that they are satisfied with for nothing or very little, good luck to em.  I won't paint your Rambo eating a fruit salad for cheap.  In fact the price would be significantly much higher because I'd hate working on it the whole time I was doing it.  I guess I'll never make a living from it and that suits me just fine. 

To reiterate/paraphrase what was said by opt2not originally, when you pay for custom artwork you are paying for a level of technical and artistic proficiency and the skills ARE learned over a considerable period of time and effort.  This thread serves as an FAQ about the process and service that someone here is willing to offer.  Some examples with price ranges is not a bad idea,  whether someone openly advertises their prices is up to them I guess.

To flip the whole idea of what art is worth on it's head - both my parents painted and sold their art for years.  My dad spent many years perfecting his water color technique, both were members of artist societies that regular held exhibitions where pieces were sold.  Sometimes they sold offered pieces, sometimes they didn't.  When I asked them how they priced their work, mum just said "Oh that's just what I'm willing to take to part with it." 

Monkeyvoodoo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • I swear I can stop at one. Or two.
    • Take No Quarter Production Diary
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2013, 08:48:41 pm »

...Pat Sajak riding a gazelle...

So I know what I want for Father's Day.

I will also accept Tom Selleck on a giraffe.


Sent from where ever I happen to be.

mgb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3465
  • North East, US
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2013, 09:05:48 pm »
Vigo,
   I see what you're saying and you explained it very well.

jdbailey1206

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1903
  • Hello pants.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2013, 07:23:17 am »

...Pat Sajak riding a gazelle...

So I know what I want for Father's Day.

I will also accept Tom Selleck on a giraffe.



Would you accept Jaleel White pointing at a hedgehog?    :lol

JDFan

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2664
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2013, 10:02:12 am »

...Pat Sajak riding a gazelle...

So I know what I want for Father's Day.

I will also accept Tom Selleck on a giraffe.


Sent from where ever I happen to be.


yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15913
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2013, 10:16:41 am »
I'd pay more for Pat Sajak riding a gazelle than Rambo eating a fruit salad.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Maximus

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1391
  • Plans are for fools!!!!
    • Arcade Icons
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2013, 12:12:13 pm »
How about Starbuck and Starbuck drinking Starbucks at Starbucks?


mcseforsale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
  • Creepy Mario Dude
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2013, 12:26:12 pm »
My brain hurts.



How about Starbuck and Starbuck drinking Starbucks at Starbucks?



PL1

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6075
  • 2013 UCA Awardee
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2013, 12:52:32 pm »
How about Starbuck and Starbuck drinking Starbucks at Starbucks?



You forgot to include the obligatory Xzibit motivator.


Scott

Maximus

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1391
  • Plans are for fools!!!!
    • Arcade Icons
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2013, 04:40:11 pm »
Ok this one's free but further revisions will be chargable

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2013, 04:41:40 pm »
 :laugh2: It's like he doesn't know what to do with it.

Monkeyvoodoo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • I swear I can stop at one. Or two.
    • Take No Quarter Production Diary
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2013, 05:09:04 pm »



Well that's pretty awesome.



Sent from where ever I happen to be.

mcseforsale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
  • Creepy Mario Dude
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2013, 05:16:41 pm »
two things you can always count on when a rant thread pops up:

1.) it will denegrate into humor of some sort

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2013, 05:45:48 pm »
two things you can always count on when a rant thread pops up:

1.) it will denegrate into humor of some sort

It's the Internet equivalent of the post coital cigarette

jdbailey1206

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1903
  • Hello pants.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2013, 07:41:29 am »
.....
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:11:43 am by jdbailey1206 »

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2014, 10:18:39 pm »
I'm necro-bumping this up with another question in the first thread. Also because I've been receiving a bunch of inquires for commissions, and a few negative comments regarding some of the things I've mentioned earlier.

Its seems that people still don't understand the work involved... :(

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2014, 02:01:49 am »
send those people my way please. I could use the chump change $ lol :burgerking:

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #64 on: March 10, 2014, 11:45:47 am »
Its seems that people still don't understand the work involved... :(

I am guessing those are the people who saw videos of an cartoonist drawing one of their characters in 30 seconds flat, not realizing that that person draws the same thing over and over again each day.

pbj

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5755
  • Obey.
    • The Chris Burke Band
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #65 on: March 10, 2014, 11:55:15 am »
If it's too much work for too little money then.... stop doing it?


opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2014, 12:45:12 pm »
If it's too much work for too little money then.... stop doing it?
I'm starting to think it might just come to that.

send those people my way please. I could use the chump change $ lol :burgerking:
Heh, will do.  :cheers:

Malenko

  • KNEEL BEFORE ZODlenko!
  • Trade Count: (+58)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11977
  • 說好話 做好事 存好心
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142404.msg1475162.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #67 on: March 10, 2014, 03:22:35 pm »
If it's too much work for too little money then.... stop doing it?

Its not that, me thinks. Its people wanting $500 worth of work and balking at the price tag, thinking it should only cost $50
2014 Standup UCA Runner Up
2015 Restoration UCA Winner
2016 thomas_surles choice award

Latest project:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,150902.0.html
RedheadKingPinball aka GingerBalls

Latest Restore?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152600.0.html
Killer Instinct Cab

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #68 on: March 10, 2014, 03:53:07 pm »
If it's too much work for too little money then.... stop doing it?

Its not that, me thinks. Its people wanting $500 worth of work and balking at the price tag, thinking it should only cost $50
It's exactly that.  Lots of people shoot for the moon, want a billion characters...or want a style that is unreasonable (like 3D art?? or photorealistic) then when I lay out the price for the effort/hours it takes they scoff at it thinking it's not worth it.  In those cases, I just say good-day and suggest they look elsewhere.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #69 on: March 10, 2014, 04:12:57 pm »
So how much for a black light sensitive, lenticular, cubist picture of circa 1985 Tom Hanks wearing a bowl of Grape nuts on his head, while Aunt Bea Tattoos a picture of an Egg McMuffin on his chin?

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2014, 04:32:15 pm »
 :laugh2:  oh here we go...

pbj

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5755
  • Obey.
    • The Chris Burke Band
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2014, 05:24:43 pm »
Well, I like your stuff and was certainly happy with what I've paid you in the past but this thread is kind of vexing.  Dealing with tire kickers is kind of par for the service industry course.  I've done catering, I've done "graphic arts" (t-shirts), and I've heard my share of BS about why they can't pay that invoice or how our competitors are doing twice as much for half the price.  Guess who's not in the service industry anymore?   :P

Everyone likes to complain, but this thread really feels like you wanted to publicly shame certain people without using their names, and skimming it looks you were successful in that endeavor as they recognized and outed themselves. 

Frankly, behavior like that is why I generally don't negotiate via private messages and I keep copies of any transaction related e-mails.  Sure, it might make for some frank "cash in hand" type posts on your threads, but at least we don't see "a well known member here keeps sending me insulting lowball offers and I don't like it" posts.

So, again, if you dislike the negotiations more than you like the money, then... don't do it.

 :cheers:




 

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2014, 06:18:45 pm »
You're absolutely correct on all counts.

But one thing you're missing is that I now point to this thread to potential 'clients' as a point of reference to filtering out the tire-kickers. When people contact me, I send them my standard Prices, Process and Policy write-up, and have recently been including a link to this thread. If I hear back from people after they've read through this lamentation, then I know that those people value the custom artwork I'd be creating for them, and it also indicates to me that they'll be easy to work with.

One thing I'd like to clarify is that while I like doing this art for members here, I don't hold this as a primary source of income. I do this on the side, I don't plan on expanding into a full-fledged service, and I don't plan on doing this as a full-time gig (nor could I, with the cost of living in Vancouver).  Even though the way I handle things are professional (I'm anal, and I like efficiency), my thread is stickied, and I come from a professional background, I mainly started offering this to people because I was tired of seeing clip-art slathered onto projects that have the potential to be so much more.

Doing custom art for people is something that I thought would be nice to help make their projects look even more awesome. That's how it started...then being able to get spending money for this hobby helps not only feed my obsession but also keeps the wife off my back.  I'm not going to get rich of this, that's for damn sure.
But I do get a sense of pride, a boost of morale and motivation from the recognition you guys give me. It's also great to see my art come to life with the projects here.

But I can walk away from this stuff, and probably will when I find it interferes too much with life -- which isn't that far off to tell you the truth. This was one of the reasons I got my artist buddy to help me out. With BitterP taking some of the commissions I can't get to, we've been able to keep this manageable.

As of today, I've got 3 major commissions to finish (2 BYOAC guys, 1 Arcade Otaku bloke), while BitterP is working on 2 big ones as well. There are about 4 people on the wait-list -- one of which I'm really considering because it would be the first time I've been asked to do custom pinball playfield art.  That is awesome not only because of the artistic angle, but also for the interaction of gameplay! But I'm hoping that both BitterP and I can finish our current ones by the end of summer, then evaluate what's next.

So yes, this is a Rant thread, as appropriately titled.
But for the record: None of the people that this was directed to has replied to this thread. 

BAMBOO

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 290
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2014, 11:02:47 pm »
Bob Ross!   :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
"Every arcade we restore preserves history that we will never experience again..."

Generic Eric

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4517
  • Restore! Don't maim for MAME, build from scratch!
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,143226.0.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2014, 11:38:18 pm »
<null>
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 06:45:23 am by Generic Eric »

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2014, 11:00:31 pm »
who deleted the sam jackson ART  :laugh2:

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2014, 11:53:43 pm »
I think it had swearing in it, bypassing the profanity filter -- against forum rules!  :police:

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2014, 01:23:41 am »
IT WAS ART! :angry: :lol

Generic Eric

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4517
  • Restore! Don't maim for MAME, build from scratch!
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,143226.0.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2014, 07:22:29 am »
who deleted the sam jackson ART  :laugh2:
http://i.imgur.com/FmqnQGU.jpg
I had second thoughts that maybe it was in poor taste.

I wasn't moderated, I took it down.  I'm an  :angel:


Altogether though, I feel a little bad for derailing OPs topic.  Maybe it would help to put a lead price out to cut out the riff raff.  Also, set on a product for a bit.   If you can do the work in an hour, but charge say...$200, someone might feel they are being taken advantage of.

That said, I've never tried to work with someone on custom art.  I don't know the process, I've only inferred based on what I read here.  Best wishes, just don't stop doing your Art.  It is really good.  I miss watching Frosticullus and Felsir churn out pieces.

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1289
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2014, 06:57:14 pm »
Altogether though, I feel a little bad for derailing OPs topic.  Maybe it would help to put a lead price out to cut out the riff raff.  Also, set on a product for a bit.   If you can do the work in an hour, but charge say...$200, someone might feel they are being taken advantage of.

What people need to keep in mind is they're not paying $200 for the hour worth of work.  They are paying $200 for the years of experience to be able to do the work in an hour.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2014, 07:09:31 pm »
What people need to keep in mind is they're not paying $200 for the hour worth of work.  They are paying $200 for the years of experience to be able to do the work in an hour.
Amen brother.  :cheers:

Generic Eric

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4517
  • Restore! Don't maim for MAME, build from scratch!
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,143226.0.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2014, 07:19:30 pm »
What people need to keep in mind is they're not paying $200 for the hour worth of work.  They are paying $200 for the years of experience to be able to do the work in an hour.
Amen brother.  :cheers:

I'll probably get ugly looks for saying this.  I'm not saying don't charge $200.  I'm saying don't deliver it in an hour.  *shrug* 

Just don't stop.  Your artwork is good and you should feel good.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2014, 07:33:24 pm »
Oh I wish it could take only an hour. :lol

These things take me months, unfortunately. The process is long and there are many back-and-forth communications because I fully involve the people I'm working with on the direction.  Its not like people just give me their concept and I run with it...there are iterative passes.

Most people I've dealt with have given me lots of breathing space though. For instance when they're not moving so fast on their side of the project, like during the cold seasons, I can take my time.

Le Chuck

  • I want a new quote!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5291
  • I may have forgotten to whom I am talking.
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2014, 06:53:15 pm »
Everytime I see this thread I just read it as "The thing custom artwork" I think it's a machine with some sweet as John Carpenter monster art.  BOOOOOOO!

eds1275

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1964
  • Rock and Roll!
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #84 on: March 15, 2014, 02:04:03 pm »
My two cents, for anyone that cares to listen. It's not even the fact that you honed your craft and are good at it. It's not about what the client thinks it should be worth, and I definitely don't believe it's as simple as "it's only worth what someone is willing to pay." It comes down to time. I value my time. I enjoy the artsy stuff I work on (music/audio) but that doesn't mean I always jump at the chance to do it, even for money. If my time is precious to me and you want to take that away, it's going to cost you.

Malenko

  • KNEEL BEFORE ZODlenko!
  • Trade Count: (+58)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11977
  • 說好話 做好事 存好心
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142404.msg1475162.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2015, 12:22:54 pm »
My two cents, for anyone that cares to listen. It's not even the fact that you honed your craft and are good at it. It's not about what the client thinks it should be worth, and I definitely don't believe it's as simple as "it's only worth what someone is willing to pay." It comes down to time. I value my time. I enjoy the artsy stuff I work on (music/audio) but that doesn't mean I always jump at the chance to do it, even for money. If my time is precious to me and you want to take that away, it's going to cost you.

Yes, Im bumping this thread. It needs to be pinned in the artwork section.
2014 Standup UCA Runner Up
2015 Restoration UCA Winner
2016 thomas_surles choice award

Latest project:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,150902.0.html
RedheadKingPinball aka GingerBalls

Latest Restore?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152600.0.html
Killer Instinct Cab

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2015, 04:34:16 pm »
Its been awhile since I've had to refer this thread to someone. Mainly because I haven't taken on anything new in the last year or so. But a sticky would be cool!  :cheers:

HaRuMaN

  • Supreme Solder King
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+44)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9933
  • boom
    • Arcade Madness
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2015, 04:47:42 pm »
Its been awhile since I've had to refer this thread to someone. Mainly because I haven't taken on anything new in the last year or so. But a sticky would be cool!  :cheers:

It was stickied before you replied...  lol

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2015, 04:54:49 pm »
Well then...  :applaud:

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2015, 06:38:03 pm »
I like those emails when people ask me to make 4-5 designs and throw in bunch of ideas


...who's paying for all that? no further reply :banghead:

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #90 on: January 27, 2015, 09:29:29 pm »
Opt and Snaake, how about both of you make me 4-5 designs, I will choose who will be worthy to completely design my cab artwork for me for me this crisp 10 dollar bill I have.   >:D >:D >:D


Generic Eric

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4517
  • Restore! Don't maim for MAME, build from scratch!
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,143226.0.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #91 on: January 27, 2015, 09:36:03 pm »
Opt and Snaake, how about both of you make me 4-5 designs, I will choose who will be worthy to completely design my cab artwork for me for me this crisp 10 dollar bill I have.   >:D >:D >:D

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2015, 11:55:27 pm »
ok deal but only if you have....CASH IN HAND! :burgerking:

lamprey

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 633
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2015, 12:41:29 am »
Shouldn't this be in the vendor sub forum?

Malenko

  • KNEEL BEFORE ZODlenko!
  • Trade Count: (+58)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11977
  • 說好話 做好事 存好心
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142404.msg1475162.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #94 on: April 09, 2015, 10:03:27 am »
Just to add to this thread, you can be as picky as your wallet allows.
More changes = more time


The absolute worst is when you send a sample, they like it, you make a buncha changes, then they want to "start fresh". Makes me want to club baby seals.
2014 Standup UCA Runner Up
2015 Restoration UCA Winner
2016 thomas_surles choice award

Latest project:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,150902.0.html
RedheadKingPinball aka GingerBalls

Latest Restore?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152600.0.html
Killer Instinct Cab

wp34

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3662
  • 8 Bit...16 Shy
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #95 on: April 09, 2015, 11:56:51 am »
I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Making artwork is more time consuming than people think.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #96 on: April 09, 2015, 01:48:43 pm »
 :applaud:  Thanks for updating this thread.  :cheers:

Just to add to this thread, you can be as picky as your wallet allows.
More changes = more time


The absolute worst is when you send a sample, they like it, you make a buncha changes, then they want to "start fresh". Makes me want to club baby seals.
Oh man that's horrible. Luckily I haven't had someone want me to start fresh. And honestly, if someone pulled that one on me, I'd probably double charge them for the first attempt in addition to the fresh-start attempt. Either that, or cancel the commission. Life's too short to deal with people who don't value other people's time.

I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Making artwork is more time consuming than people think.
Exactly. For the really complex pieces I've done, it has taken me months to complete. Especially the stuff that is from scratch. Fresh custom artwork can take just as long as building the whole project itself!

Shouldn't this be in the vendor sub forum?
Naw, it's fine in the Artwork section. This is an informative thread that needs to be here in the general Artwork forum to stay active and visible to the masses. If thrown in the vendor forum, it wouldn't get nearly as much traffic as it does here.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #97 on: April 09, 2015, 02:01:24 pm »
I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Illustrator is a a big one to master. Illustrator is probably one of my weakest programs, but knowing the ins and outs of the pen tool alone has been a bigger personal triumph than most anything else I know in Adobe, and I do know how to use the bulk of the software suite.

yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15913
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2015, 02:05:15 pm »
I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Illustrator is a a big one to master. Illustrator is probably one of my weakest programs, but knowing the ins and outs of the pen tool alone has been a bigger personal triumph than most anything else I know in Adobe, and I do know how to use the bulk of the software suite.
I'm pretty proficient in Illustrator now, but the only reason I started using it was because of this hobby. Before I couldn't wrap my head around it- now, it's like second nature. I can use it for almost anything, especially in conjunction with Photoshop.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2015, 02:19:39 pm »
It's funny, after using Illustrator for so long, I've been trying to avoid it now. Lately I've been forcing myself to stick to Photoshop only, and doing my vector work there. I never relied on Illustrator's auto-trace anyway, and I can get the pretty much the same results for most things. Though there are a few things I dislike about PS's vector support, but for the most part it gets the job done.
Sometimes it's just better to keep to one package, rather than having to deal with smart-layers and jumping back and forth between software, especially if I don't need anything too complicated that PS's vectors can't do.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2015, 02:30:24 pm »
Yeah, once it "clicks" Illustrator is pretty darn cool. I was constantly making the mistake of thinking I had to make complex shapes all in one swoop. Taking little chunks at a time and tweaking put so much of the process into perspective.


It's funny, after using Illustrator for so long, I've been trying to avoid it now. Lately I've been forcing myself to stick to Photoshop only, and doing my vector work there. I never relied on Illustrator's auto-trace anyway, and I can get the pretty much the same results for most things. Though there are a few things I dislike about PS's vector support, but for the most part it gets the job done.
Sometimes it's just better to keep to one package, rather than having to deal with smart-layers and jumping back and forth between software, especially if I don't need anything too complicated that PS's vectors can't do.

You sound like my brother. I am more of a "chocolate-out-of-my-peanut butter" person and like to keep em separate. Vector support has gotten way better in PS, and I am probably gonna have to switch if I want to delve into the Photoshop 3d functions.

Malenko

  • KNEEL BEFORE ZODlenko!
  • Trade Count: (+58)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11977
  • 說好話 做好事 存好心
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142404.msg1475162.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2015, 03:35:09 pm »
Oh man that's horrible. Luckily I haven't had someone want me to start fresh. And honestly, if someone pulled that one on me, I'd probably double charge them for the first attempt in addition to the fresh-start attempt. Either that, or cancel the commission. Life's too short to deal with people who don't value other people's time.

I cancelled that one, but it sucked hours of my life I'll never get back.


As for illustrator and photoshop..... I tend to use photoshop for almost everything. occasionally I'll have to make something in Illustrator, then bring it in as a smart object but thats few and far between. Getting a good digitizer is a god send.
2014 Standup UCA Runner Up
2015 Restoration UCA Winner
2016 thomas_surles choice award

Latest project:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,150902.0.html
RedheadKingPinball aka GingerBalls

Latest Restore?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152600.0.html
Killer Instinct Cab

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #102 on: April 21, 2015, 04:44:17 pm »
which one of you quit tho?

because lately Ive been getting some emails/inquires lol..maybe because of weather getting better and people trying to finish up their cabinets :cheers:

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2015, 06:26:05 pm »
Yeah I've been getting a bunch as well. Must be the weather.

Had to turn a couple boneheads down though. These guys expected a $50 price on a 8 hour (minimum) job...  :banghead:

yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15913
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2015, 06:28:13 pm »
Yeah I've been getting a bunch as well. Must be the weather.

Had to turn a couple boneheads down though. These guys expected a $50 price on a 8 hour (minimum) job...  :banghead:

I got $10 cash-in-hand for you to finish that poster for me, brah.  :duckhunt
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #105 on: May 08, 2015, 06:33:02 pm »
Hey I thought we were going to do some metal-work tradin' hmmm? ???

yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15913
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2015, 09:37:47 pm »
Heh. Just tell me when!
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #107 on: August 06, 2015, 03:04:32 pm »
Wow, just got another one of those emails...

A new member here contacts me for artwork for his cabinet. Full-set, Marquee, Bezel, CP, Side and Kickplate.  Goes on to give me a description of about 60 characters from all his favourite games to be included in the art, and he wants it in a painterly-inked style, similar to the look of the Okami concept art.  Not a terribly hard style to nail, but the sheer volume of character work and composition is enough to make this commission a long one.

So I proceed to giving him my price quote, time estimate it would take me to finish, and a rough start-date I could begin at. Since I've been taking a bit of an art-break for the past little while, I'm obviously not ready to jump right into a massive commission like this right away.
I broke it down to how many hours per character it would take, and an overall timeline for each pass, etc. Pretty detailed overall.

*snip* he starts off by saying this:
Quote
"wow why is this really expensive!!? i thought maybe $200 tops but this price is insane and your going to make me wait over 6 months for it to be complete??!?  it sounds like your taking advantage of people that arent "artists" like you."
:dizzy: Yes, I'm taking advantage of people by slaving hours away for a massive art project that I'm charging half of than what a McDonald's employee makes per hour.  :banghead:  And this guy wants me to do this for $200... :timebomb:

Quote
"i already spent over $1100 for my project, and i dont understand why your charging me so much for just drawing and painting when building a cabinet from scratch is waaaay more work"

 :whap  I can't even gather up the energy to explain to this guy why artwork takes so long, and how much thought and planning is involved. aside from the work involved, paying an artist isn't only "just for the work", you are paying an artist for their skills and experiences that got them there in the first place.
If you didn't budget your project to include the cost of art, then that's on you.

Then he really goes off the deep-end, and the email it gets trollish/hurtful:
Quote
"forget it then. your artwork isnt that good anyways. at least not for that price. i think i'm going to just learn photoshop and do this myself because there is no way i spending that amount of money on artwork that isnt even official!! you are a scammer and i'm going to report you to the mods so that other people dont get scammed by you"

Wow. Just wow.  Why is it all the crazies contact me for art?  At this point I'm just thinking he's trolling me on purpose.

So this guy wants all those licensed characters, re-imagined into a style that is also ripped off other artists, and he is expecting official work? What. the. ---fudgesicle---.
Please, go ahead learn photoshop. Please, go ahead and report me to the mods. My artwork may not be the greatest, I sure know what my flaws are and I have been working on trying to get better at my craft. I do my best to put all I can into people's artwork. I do get excited by some ideas that people come to me with, and there are times that I'm not excited about some people's requirements that I usually pass them up because if I'm taking something on, I want it to come out the best I can make it. I put my soul into this work, I get into an obsession of making it look the best I can.

But to put me down by saying my artwork isn't that good, and berate me for giving him a price quote that is well below what I should have charged him for this monstrous amount of work is just....sad.  :'(
I know I should just shake these kind of emails off, perhaps today I'm just feeling some type of way, but this one got to me. I haven't had an email exchange like this in a while, so perhaps my thick skin grew soft. But man...what a complete ---meecrob----bag response.
I'm not going to bother replying to him.

Malenko

  • KNEEL BEFORE ZODlenko!
  • Trade Count: (+58)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11977
  • 說好話 做好事 存好心
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142404.msg1475162.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #108 on: August 06, 2015, 03:34:41 pm »
The only thing I'd ever report you to the mods for is being too awesome.

I do get excited by some ideas that people come to me with
Like Hung Donkey?


That guy doesn't know ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I'm pretty well versed in photoshop and I still come to you for help when I need it. You've graciously done both easy things and complex work for me with equal enthusiasm and the end results have always been exactly what I wanted.  Your work, even in concept form is typically better than my end results. Don't let a bean bag like that bring you down bro. Next time Im in Canada I'll buy you a Molson or a Labatt Blue or what ever you guys drink up there  :cheers:
2014 Standup UCA Runner Up
2015 Restoration UCA Winner
2016 thomas_surles choice award

Latest project:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,150902.0.html
RedheadKingPinball aka GingerBalls

Latest Restore?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152600.0.html
Killer Instinct Cab

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #109 on: August 06, 2015, 04:30:41 pm »
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I actually had a bunch of fun making the Hung Donkey marquee.
Just like pbj's Ms.Pacman "assault". Those ones are the fringe art that takes me out of the safe realm and gives a me a chance to do more risqué stuff.
But there are some requests I've got that just sounds cool and in line with my own interests (like harveybirdman's bulletreign), so I get excited about those ones.
At the price and time I offer this art for I can afford to be picky.

For the record, it's been pretty hot up here this summer and I've been drinking more coronas and budweisers more so than any other beers. :p

 :cheers:

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #110 on: August 06, 2015, 04:58:25 pm »
Hey, send him my way. For $100 I can pump out 60 video game characters in the timeframe he wants.

Of course, this is the style he would be stuck with.



I find it crazy how many people just don't get how involved art is. I'm only an adobe designer, and still I scratch my head at how many people at my office think I must be just selecting from some presets or templates or something. About anytime I make some random bit of art for an office function, IT tells me they get install requests for stuff like "That t-shirt designer that vigo has" or "Vigo's clipart library". Really? like a effin' clipart library is gonna have images custom to our company related to the specific function we are doing?? You think a logo of chef playing poker in Minnesota is a common thing to find pre-made?

My own boss doesn't even get it, and I know that is a big reason why I am paid horse ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I recently released a new safety campaign for the company and I designed a team of safety mascots, created a series of themed posters around this, started a series of training videos, restructured the program from scratch, the whole 9 yards.

I show my boss all my work, "Hey that program you have is nifty. You can even pick what heads those people can have? I like the background patterns program lets you choose from!" I then try to tell him I designed the backgrounds, characters and everything else from scratch. Drew everything myself, etc...and how many hours it takes to do this kind of work. He just shuts down and doesn't listen. Flash forward 2 weeks later, he writes me up for time management, because I have been clocking in a lot of overtime to get my work done.   :banghead:  Somehow he manages to forget that before I was doing this, we were outsourcing $20,000 a year for a company to paste one picture on the same background once a month.

OK, so I might have turned this into my rant as well. Bottom line -  I hear ya brother!   :cheers:
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 05:00:34 pm by Vigo »

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #111 on: August 06, 2015, 04:59:34 pm »
why does he want "CUSTOM" drawn artwork then?

his goal his cartoony art then get him some cartoony STOCK art that is already available and charge him to put everything together. send him my way if he wants me to do it. for his budget he can't get "CUSTOM" anything. its that simple.

Ive done entire sets for 100-200 before. even  those "easy" type work is tiring with revisions, changing colors, background, etc  :dizzy:

in case anyone wondering why I even bother. I look at my own personal struggle lol. back in the day when I was making cabinets I must have emailed like 20 people trying to see if I can get someone to do some photoshop work for me. didn't get a single reply then kinda had to learn photoshop. SO I figured there are other people on the same boat on a budget and I will sacrifice my time and energy for a small fee to do some photoshop for them.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 05:11:13 pm by SNAAKE »

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #112 on: August 06, 2015, 05:06:44 pm »
"you are a scammer and i'm going to report you to the mods so that other people dont get scammed by you"

what did I just read :laugh2: :laugh2: :dunno

yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15913
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2015, 05:09:23 pm »
I hope the cheap bastard moves on to another hobby. Opt2Not is the furthest thing from a scammer.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5666
  • The Soap Water of Moldavia
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #114 on: August 06, 2015, 05:19:21 pm »
I need my entertainment. I'm hoping for one of those "ripoff alert" threads where everyone just ends up telling the OP to STFU.

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #115 on: August 06, 2015, 05:58:00 pm »
not to derail thread but I get people like this for xboxes too.

had this kid texting me like 50 times for about a month trying to buy a jtag/rgh xbox. after answering 900 questions, he shows up with his WHOLE FAMILY. buys the slim mw3 xbox360 for $180. calls me 10 min later saying he wants his money back. why?? I DONT KNOW BRO. thats his response. he doesn't know why. then mom butts in and says "we wanna buy something newer like xboxone". then why is your kid wasting all my ---goshdarn--- time and energy? aren't the adults(mom and pop) supposed to step in and at least offer me like $20? nope..dad starts saying "its part of the hussle". no its not..be an adult and clear up your kid's mess and show some respect for the seller's time and skill.

he's lucky he did show up in 10 minutes. if it was next day then I would have been like "I donated your money to the homeless bruh..MY BAD!"


8BitMonk

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 868
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #116 on: August 06, 2015, 07:09:57 pm »
Wow... just, wow. This guy needs to be verbally ---smurfette--- slapped, no clue whatsoever. :dizzy: This is a classic Aesops fables fox and the grapes situation.


SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #117 on: August 06, 2015, 08:43:14 pm »
haha :laugh2:


opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051

UncleArgyle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #119 on: August 12, 2015, 11:34:07 am »

mike boss

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2423
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #120 on: August 13, 2015, 08:07:52 am »
Really interesting thread with some great info.
I was compelled to read this after just completing my Wonderboy Bartop project.
This was a "paid  to learn" type situation for me. And I will not tell you what I agreed to do it for.
It was not however worth it....I did apologize to the seller and a new price (very small increase) was negotiated.
HOURS and HOURS went into this, and the amount of revisions ! WHOA!

In the end when I sent the artwork to the customer they had 5 different versions of the sideart.

I think it the revisions that sting us. People like what they see, but then they want to see if they would like "this orange, that a square, shadow here." ARGHHHH ! Pain !

Yet by the same token I did a Mala layout (and to be fair I use the art widely existing online) and the consumer loves it @ 1st take.......pays, and we're done.

My experience was good..... but my hat is off to you guys.
I've been asked to do another project and I may have to decline.

Part due to I do not wish to put out an inferior product.
Part due to the time it will take me, it is simply not worth it.

What are some of the main things you all consider when pricing a job ?

eds1275

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1964
  • Rock and Roll!
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #121 on: August 13, 2015, 09:55:13 am »
As I stated above, I do audio, but last year I made a cabinet for someone. I spent so much time on the art that it ended up not being worth it for me in the end, and I cared about it so much I didn't want to give it up.


Malenko

  • KNEEL BEFORE ZODlenko!
  • Trade Count: (+58)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11977
  • 說好話 做好事 存好心
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142404.msg1475162.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #122 on: August 13, 2015, 12:28:57 pm »
That looks smurfing awesome.


When I do pricing, I tell the people "it will cost X if I take about Y number of hours"  Big changes mean more time and I always say up front that what they want changed will increase the cost. Almost everyone understands. I've had people completely change the scope after I thought I was near a final version and I've refunded money to not deal with them anymore.
2014 Standup UCA Runner Up
2015 Restoration UCA Winner
2016 thomas_surles choice award

Latest project:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,150902.0.html
RedheadKingPinball aka GingerBalls

Latest Restore?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152600.0.html
Killer Instinct Cab

mike boss

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2423
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #123 on: August 13, 2015, 12:54:21 pm »
I don't know if it is just me, or this is a slippery slope ?
I'd like to think every time I set out to do something for a customer I nail it first take.
But that would be anything but the truth.

And my desire to ensure each and every individual is happy often times has me working on stuff when it isn't worth it.

I think on a go forward when I present my original concept (which I always do) I'll take the input/feedback at that time.

If someone is asking to see it this way, now that way, now that way again, then asking for all versions included it has to come at a cost. I think most people do realize time is money.

Where I need to be fair is my lack of ability, and not having someone pay extra because I am slow.
But I think I'm fair with that and price things accordingly.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #124 on: August 13, 2015, 03:17:25 pm »
Prefacing expectations.  I state right at the beginning of any commission that I allow only 3 revisions, once at every "pass" that I provide.
Anything extra will cost extra, and that cost is high.  This is to temper the nitpickers, or wishy-washers, because honestly the money we take in is not worth the hours and hours of revisions. It can really get out of hand.
Yes, I do want people to be happy with the work I provide them, but I have no time nor patience for small adjustments that can creep up time and time again. 
This is only a slippery slope if you let it be. Personally I don't allow my customers to run-on with minuscule changes and I let them know that frankly right from the get-go.

It's a hard rule that I try very hard to stick to, but I'll only break it when it has to do with placement or measurement changes.

This is why I tell people that when they give me exact measurements at the beginning, and the revisions feedback must be well-thought-out. Take your time to think about what you want changed and at each pass try to give me as much feedback as possible.  I realize this is hard for most people who are not creative-types, since they have a harder time envision what they want.  But that's the rub eh? When you are hiring an artist for a commission, it's up to the artists interpretation to deliver what you think you want. This is very similar to how tattoo artists work...you go in, give them an idea of what you want, they show you examples, or give you a rough sketch...you sign off on it and it's direct to the inking.

As for the starting point, my customers must provide me with as much information as they can before I price out how much it costs. I have a "standard workload" that I let them know about.  Creating 40+ characters collage doesn't not fit within a that standard workload.
Anything above the standard and I scale the amount of time and money it'll cost drastically. This keeps people from going crazy, and if it turns people away from hiring me, then it's no skin off my back. Like I said, the money and time to do these commissions are not worth that kind of effort. I do this for a little money in my pocket to fund my hobbies, so the wife doesn't go ape----steaming pile of meadow muffin---, as well as a service to the community 'cause I like seeing nice art'ed-up cabinets being made.  If it comes to a point where I feel its not worth it, I might as well just make art for myself and say screw-it, people can stick to that fugly blue lighting stock art.

pbj

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5755
  • Obey.
    • The Chris Burke Band
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #125 on: August 13, 2015, 04:18:11 pm »
Hmm... so how's about $5 for a drawing of grizzled Sonic the Hedgehog nursing a whiskey in a dive bar and pondering his direction in life?

Twist - Sonic is a metaphor for pinballjim.


sellsellsell2000

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • Do what you love!
FS: Capcom Arcade Bezel / Insert / Flyer Collections (BAYAREA)

mike boss

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2423
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2015, 10:22:52 am »
My brothers are electricians....and at some point or another everyone is looking for an electrician.
And everyone wants a deal. And I remember one time my brother told me, "Stop telling people I'm an electrician!" I asked him why. He said everyone wants something for nothing and acts like this doesn't feed my family.

So I remember when I was getting married I went to my buddy, he had a full service wedding company. My school of thought was put the money in his pocket. But I remember in my dealings with him I went to him for trust, confidence, and I wanted a deal. But I did not lose site of the fact that this is how he feeds his family.

When I see that cartoon about the 10 minutes I laugh. Because it is very true. I've found doing small stuff like Mala layouts people don't sweat it when they get the finished product in an hour. But with more expensive stuff they tend to freak.

mcseforsale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1471
  • Creepy Mario Dude
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #128 on: September 27, 2015, 03:25:00 pm »
So, I have a question.  I'm working on an arcade for my neighbor and I'm out of my depth in artwork.  How much would it cost to have the side artwork done with a simple HUGE Jack Daniels bottle up the side on each side and a CP top that looks like a worn bartop with coasters featuring their last name as drink brands? 

I'm going to try it (in Photoshop 5.1), but if I get into trouble and I start hitting deadlines, I'd gladly pay someone else's money to get it done quickly. 

So, for all the discussion regarding artwork, to the (very) layman...what's it really worth?

LeChuck bailed me out on the Fistful of Quarters build in a mercy-killing...he probably got tired of watching me flop on the dock...

AJ

SNAAKE

  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3373
  • my joystick is bigger than your joystick !
    • gamestation
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #129 on: September 27, 2015, 11:43:45 pm »
Hmm... so how's about $5 for a drawing of grizzled Sonic the Hedgehog nursing a whiskey in a dive bar and pondering his direction in life?

Twist - Sonic is a metaphor for pinballjim.

I did get a request like that. pacman and bunch of other characters in a tiki bar..make them wear skirt and dance or something too..maybe smoke weed  :dizzy: :dunno

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4051
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #130 on: September 28, 2015, 01:19:54 pm »
So, I have a question.  I'm working on an arcade for my neighbor and I'm out of my depth in artwork.  How much would it cost to have the side artwork done with a simple HUGE Jack Daniels bottle up the side on each side and a CP top that looks like a worn bartop with coasters featuring their last name as drink brands? 

I'm going to try it (in Photoshop 5.1), but if I get into trouble and I start hitting deadlines, I'd gladly pay someone else's money to get it done quickly. 

So, for all the discussion regarding artwork, to the (very) layman...what's it really worth?

LeChuck bailed me out on the Fistful of Quarters build in a mercy-killing...he probably got tired of watching me flop on the dock...

AJ

mcseforsale, if you are actually seriously inquiring about a price quote for getting some art done for you, please send your questions through PM.  I don't discuss prices in a public forum.

But if you're asking more of the philosophical question of "what's it really worth?", I invite you to read this thread again from the beginning.

 :cheers:

yotsuya

  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15913
  • 2014 UCA Winner, 2014, 2015, 2016 ZapCon Winner
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137636.msg1420628.html
Re: The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)
« Reply #131 on: September 28, 2015, 01:35:24 pm »
Hmm... so how's about $5 for a drawing of grizzled Sonic the Hedgehog nursing a whiskey in a dive bar and pondering his direction in life?

Twist - Sonic is a metaphor for pinballjim.

I did get a request like that. pacman and bunch of other characters in a tiki bar..make them wear skirt and dance or something too..maybe smoke weed :dizzy: :dunno

Reminds me of this one I saw on KLOV...
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

  
 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31