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Author Topic: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)  (Read 9694 times)

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Mario Talkington

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Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« on: June 14, 2002, 08:02:27 pm »
Hi...Does anyone know where I can find information about building a Playstation 2 arcade joystick (for a Playstation 2 arcade system I'm making for home) that actually uses the thumbsticks?

I saw that X-Arcade has a controller for PS2, but you don't have enough joysticks...Each PS2 controller has a direction D pad and then two little thumbsticks, also.

Any ideas? Thanks!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Bob Sanders

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2002, 12:23:06 pm »
i dont know why you want to do this but you cant use ANY ps2 controllers

you are limited to ps1 controllers because of the "analog" buttons"

interfacing the josticks would seem pretty tricky by any other means that mechanicly sticking a joystick on top.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Dave_K.

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2002, 10:45:47 am »
This topic has been discussed several times.  The thumbsticks are analog.  You will need to either use a Happs analog joystick or 49-way with simple circuit.  Both are options are not very cheap.  I haven't herd any good way to simulate the analog buttons...but they can be hacked like simple analog ones (your preference if your game requires a light touch on the buttons or not.
BTW you could do the same with the analog joysticks (just hook them up to a digital stick...but then again, you will not have any sensativity.

-Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jakobud

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2002, 12:10:20 pm »
Now, there is something about hacking a Playstation 2 controller into arcade controls that a lot of people overlook.  The PS2 controller is made to fit in your hand.  The joysticks are made to be used with nothing more/less than your thumbs.  The buttons are made to work with your thumbs, and the shoulder buttons with your fingers.  It all works with two hands.  Now lets say you simulated the PS2 controls with arcade buttons/joysticks.  Two joysticks and all the buttons.  How in the heck are you suppose to use this thing with two hands?  The newer PS2 games are taking full advantage of all the controls on the controller:  both joysticks and all buttons.  An arcade joystick requires your entire hand to move it around.  SO how do you use both joysticks and then have to take your hand off one of them to press buttons?  How annoying would that be.  Of course this is not the case for a lot of games, but I think it is for the majority of the games.  Think about this, when you want to hack a console controller.

Jakobud
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Bob Sanders

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2002, 03:06:30 pm »
there are only a few types of games that use both stick

3rd person shooter (GTA3)

1st person shooter (007, Unreal Tournament, Time Splitters)

any other game just uses the second stick for a camera

types of games that only use the 1 stick and or the dpad

fighting (tekken 4, Virtua Fighter 4, Capcom vs Snk 2)

Sports (madden nfl, nba 2k2, nhl2002)

Classics are great but why forsake the new games
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2002, 04:18:34 pm »
Ok I hate to be the big --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- again but I'm trying to save you some time and money.  

YOU CANNOT BUILD AN ACCEPTABLE ARCADE CONTROL PANEL FOR A CONSOLE SYSTEM THAT USES MORE THAN 6 BUTTONS!!!  YOU CANNOT BUILD AN ACCEPTABLE ARCADE CONTROL PANEL FOR A SYSTEM THAT REQUIRES THE USE OF AN ANALOG STICK.  

Everything that jakobud said is absolutely right.  These games are designed with the idea that you are using a stock playstation controller and the button layouts are setup accordingly.  Now explain to me how your going to exectue a move that requires you to press l1+l2+r1+r2+up+x+o aaaall at the same time on a arcade control panel.  I dunno about you but I can only press about 4-5 buttons on an arcade panel at a time and only then if they are close together.  

Now if your only going to play arcade ports, you might get away with it, but if it's an arcade port then it will be emulated eventually if not already.  

Now I know what's going to happen your going to ignore what we said and do it anyway.  And about 3 months and several $'s later you'll get it up and running only to discover that there are 3 or 4 games that are actually fun to play in this setup.  

So go ahead and do what your going to do but you've been warned.  

btw I'm not trying to be mean or anything, it's just thist type of idea has been posted several times and no one listens until it's too late.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Juan Boligrafo

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2002, 04:59:28 pm »
Quote


Now if your only going to play arcade ports, you might get away with it, but if it's an arcade port then it will be emulated eventually if not already.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2002, 06:02:23 pm »
Quote

ok whose working on that system256 emu and that naomi 2 emu
not gonna happen for years and you aren't really going to download roms that are 1gig+


Obviously you haven't gotten mpegs for daphne,1+ gig roms aren't a problem.  As for system 256 and naomi 2 those are new systems and thus shouldn't be emulated yet.  Go to the arcade and play them, that's why the arcade business died.
:(

Besides you overlooked the 3 or 4 games part.  I meant that literally, with the exception of the dreamcast (a wonderful console for hacking)  console systems have very few arcade ports that aren't emulated, especially the psx2.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2002, 08:22:21 am »
well... my 2 cents of personal opinion...

I did hacked a PSX controller and hook it to an arcade controller... with 1 stick and 10 button.  I'm mainly playing psx and ps2 fighting games... with all 10 buttons hacked (the start, select, 4 on the right side and 4 on the top and the joystick), I'm able to use all features of the games... (but of course, I think at most I only press 3 buttons together... but then like Tekken, with L1, L2, R1, R2, you can actually program as macro and stuffs and lazy as I am, is actually a pretty good idea to have the buttons around....   ;D

so, if you want all the buttons, I would say why not ?? a new button costs $2 (more or less) and definitely better than needing to upgrade later... of course, it doesn't mean you have to press them all at once, but then its available when you need it in certain games.....

well... but I'm only talking digital games here... (not analog).... I'm working on my cabinet right now... when its done, I'll try to find time and see if I can hack an analog pad (x-box) into a panel.... (again, no need for analog, just digital is enough... cos mainly for fighting game...)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
Another Brilliant mind ruined by education....  :p

Bob Sanders

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2002, 09:39:02 am »
Quote


Obviously you haven't gotten mpegs for daphne,1+ gig roms aren't a problem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Dave_K.

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2002, 09:42:17 am »
Howard, you make an excellent point, but I wouldn't want to keep that from people trying to come up with new innovative ideas.

I've been thinking about this problem for a long time, and have a few ideas I've been telling people about.
One suggestion is mounting one thumb stick into the control panel for your right hand.

u_rebelscum

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2002, 02:30:55 pm »
Quote
If you think about it, on a real ps2 joystick you can't use the directional pad and the left analog stick at the same time anyway (unless you have 2 left thumbs)

Same with can't use both the right analog stick & the four top buttons at the same time (unless you have 2 right thumbs).

How's this for a cp that can do everything a standard ps2 controller can except the analog buttons:

Two analog joysticks with two trigger buttons each and eight buttons (four are the standard square, triangle, etc buttons, four are copies of the trigger buttons) inbetween the joysticks.  Include the toggle switch Dave_K mentioned that switches the left joystick to and from d-pad to analog thumbpad, but the toggle leaves the two trigger buttons in-line.  

This means two of the buttons (the L1 & L2) on the cp aren't needed, but there so you don't have to use the trigger buttons on the left joystick for every game.  So, if you use the trigger buttons on the left joystick, that leaves 6 buttons on the cp for your right hand, and try telling any SFII player that six buttons is too much.


Quote
YOU CANNOT BUILD AN ACCEPTABLE ARCADE CONTROL PANEL FOR A CONSOLE SYSTEM THAT USES MORE THAN 6 BUTTONS

Howard, I think the limit is higher, and more game specific.  With a gamepad, the right thumb can only press ~2 buttons at a time, while the right index finger and left index finger are best at pressing only one (trigger) button at a time.  That's four buttons, and I have four fingers and a thumb on my right hand.  Maybe if you said arcade control panels don't work very well for games that use more than 5 or 6 buttons at the same time.

Quote
Now explain to me how your going to exectue a move that requires you to press l1+l2+r1+r2+up+x+o aaaall at the same time on a arcade control panel.


Up is not a button, it's the joystick in the left hand.  And how do you press l1+l2 at the same time on a PS controller?  Are you supposed to use the middle finger for l2?  (doesn't work for me.)  BTW, what game requires six buttons pressed at the same time?

Anyway, how to press l1+l2+r1+r2+x+o:

eight buttons laid out like this:

    t    l1  r1
  s   o  l2  r2
    x

Pinky finger can press r1, r2, or lay across both, same with ring finger and l1 + l2.  That leaves four buttons to the index and middle fingers.  With above layout, the buttons are curved, like people's fingers.  So index presses x, middle presses o, ring presses both l1 & l2, and pinky presses both r1 & r2.  

If the l1 & l2 buttons are moved off the cp and onto trigger buttons on the left joystick, pressing the above combo is even easier.

Of course, other button combos would be hard to do with above layout (example: square + triangle + x + l2 + r1 + r2) unless you use your thumb, too.  But I find such a combo hard on a controller also.


BTW: How do you press r1 + x + triangle at the same time on a pad?  It would be pretty easy with the above button layout, but I can't do it on a standard PS controller without pressing square or O also, or not pressing x or triangle.  (Same problem with Dreamcast controller for me, too.)  Fat thumb syndrome?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
Robin
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Bob Sanders

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2002, 07:13:19 pm »
i just thought of something (useless for all but fps games) what about pushing in the button
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2002, 09:31:56 pm »
Rebel while I understand your point I don't think your getting mine.  Look at the layout you suggested... it's about 6 1/2- 7 buttons wide!  The trigger buttons are generally auxillary buttons meaning that you press them and one of the main buttons at the same time.  That's a huge hand stretch in certian cases.  I'm not saying you can't do it I"m just saying it's increadibly akward that no one in their right mind would prefer it over a true pad.  

 In alot of games you use both thumbsticks and the trigger buttons.  Explain to me how you are supposed to control two sticks and hit buttons on an arcade setup.  Now you could get those sticks with buttons on the top, but then you only have one button each, or you could get two analog sticks, but then it's not really an arcade setup anymore.  

Even taking all of that into account lets see what games we have left.... We have platformers, which are generally also available on the pc.  We have fighters which are emulated unless they are very very new and many of them are getting pc ports too.  We have racing games, which need a steering wheel, so their not applicable.  And finally we have fps which require  analog controls to really be played properly and we've already discussed the fact that it would be very hard to hack a ps2 controller to use the analog controls.  

Long story short, the psx2 is a 3d gaming system.  3d games in general need analog controls, which we can't get through an arcade panel easily.  Even if you could the panel would be so cluttered and bulky that it won't even look like an arcade panel.  Also I stand by my original point that it would be very akward for gameplay.  

I think trying new ideas is great but this one has already been tried several times and the creator generally breaks apart what he's built and converts it into a mame cab after he realizes his error.  If you think you can do it, then great, but you've been warned.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jakobud

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2002, 11:22:18 pm »
Hmmm.... I have a vision here....  :)

Here click on this link:

http://www.dreamwater.net/mame/ps2_proto.html

( Geez how in the HECK do I get images to show up in these posts with html code?????? yes I click the disable smileys thing )

Definately not my best PS work, but I was in a hurry :)

The only 'buttons' that would not exist in this sort of hacked setup would be L3 and R3, which represent pressing the left and right analog sticks in, just like a
button, which more games use that you might think.

Oh yeah, I forgot about select and start to go somewhere, but their position is not as important as the other buttons (in most cases).

What do you guys think?

By the way, I work for Sony Computer Entertainment of America...maybe I should pass this idea to someone :)



jakobud
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

u_rebelscum

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2002, 02:19:55 am »
Quote
Hmmm.... I have a vision here....  :)

Here click on this link:

http://www.dreamwater.net/mame/ps2_proto.html

What do you guys think?


looks good to me.

Quote
( Geez how in the HECK do I get images to show up in these posts with html code?????? yes I click the disable smileys thing )


<img>URL</img>
replacing "<" and ">" with square brackets
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
Robin
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JustMichael

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2002, 03:17:21 am »
Quote
( Geez how in the HECK do I get images to show up in these posts with html code?????? yes I click the disable smileys thing )


You don't.
Click the fourth box from the left in the second row .  This will insert an image tag into your post for you.  You will have to replace URL with the correct URL for the image though.  You can type the YABBC tag manually if you wish.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jakobud

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2002, 10:00:16 am »
hmm

//begin code



//end code

well, it's not showing up...i dunno.  oh well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

JustMichael

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2002, 10:25:54 am »
One thing you need to realize is some hosts do not allow other sites to link to images on their servers.  If your host doesn't allow other sites to link to images on their servers, you will need to find a different host if you wish to link directly to the images.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jason Price

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2002, 03:00:37 pm »
Hello All-

I come to each of you in search of help.  I represent thousands of console gamers across the country with severe disabilities.

I'm 27 years of age and throughout my life I have had a disability that forces me to use a wheelchair.  My disability is cerebral palsy, and significantly limits my ability to use my legs and left hand.  Console gaming is my life and has been since the "Intellivision."

I have very limited use of my left hand, but I have always been able to use a tabletop/laptop joystick and still enjoy games.

However I'm terrified that I'm being phased out of my PS2, since ALL new games are using at least one if not both analog sticks (and many times the "L3" and "R3" buttons, which on the standard controller are activated by pressing the analog sticks).  To my knowledge there are not any commercially available arcade stick style controllers that feaure 2 separate analog sticks as well as all the analog buttons including L3 and R3.

I realize that this is hard, but I cannot use a standard controller due to my disability, and I've heard from thousands with the same problem.  Is there anyone willing to try and build the perfect PS2 controller for me?  I have an artist willing to draw it up.  Can you guys help me make this happen?  Gamers with disabilities should not be shut out of 2nd generation console gaming.  Please help!

Thank you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2002, 07:17:12 pm »
Quote
Hmmm.... I have a vision here....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jakobud

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2002, 07:46:26 pm »
Whoa, my picture showed up now.  That's wierd.

Howard,

Yeah at E3 I saw the controller for that Mech game for the XBox.  Stupid developers develop some game that is so complicated that you have to buy a specific $150 controller for it...missing the whole point of console developement.   It is RIDICULOUS.  It has over 50 buttons on it I think.  But it doesn't really resemble that drawing I did.  It's WAY bigger.  The controller is about the size of a   Pretty stupid though.

Could be worse??  yeah working for microsoft would be terrible, but I love working for SCEA.  Game developing is the best job in the world :)

Jason Price,

That stinks man.  I'm not gonna pretend I know what it must be like.  I'd love to help you, but I have no way to really.  I think I speak for most people on this board.  You see, we take stanard arcade style/size joysticks and buttons and stuff and make full size arcade controls...not little handheld ones.  I have no means by which to create molds to create custom shaped plastic enclosers for controllers and stuff...i wish i did but I don't.  Sorry man.

jakobud

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

SteveJ34

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2002, 07:47:17 pm »
Quote
Hello All-

I come to each of you in search of help.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Jason Price

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2002, 08:24:56 pm »
Jason Price,

That stinks man.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Playstation 2 controller (thumbsticks)
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2002, 03:04:00 am »
Jason, I can speak for Jakobud (I think at least.) in that the reason analog sticks are becoming a required option is a necessary one.  For some stupid reason (personally I have no clue why) the whole gaming community has gone 3d crazy. Unfortunately 3D games can't be played well with digital controls as they are much more sensitive and require more precise movements than the traditional 2d game.  Of course I don't have to tell you this you've probably been struggleing with it for some time now.  

I originally said that it would be useless for anyone to make an arcade panel because it would be akward and bulky, but obviously in your case the opposite is true.  

Now probably someone who has more experience with the psx2 controller could help you with this but I'll give you my thoughts.  

First off IF, and this is a big if the thumbsticks inside the psx2 controller aren't optical as nintendo is now using then you have a shot at hacking it.  You would need to get some information on the range of pots you would need for the joysticks though.  

Secondly I think Jakobud had the right idea with the buttons on top of the sticks but in your case we would have to merge it.  There are flight sticks that have up to 4 buttons  on them in addition to a pov hat.  Simply remove the pov hat and replace it with a standard psx2 thumbstick and you have two analog sticks, one on top of the other.  Additional buttons could be retrofitted along the length of the stick's shaft.  Looking at the flight stick I have here, you could probably have about 8-10 buttons on it if you placed them well and still be able to play comfortably.    If you can get someone to help you with the electronics bit I think this could be do-able.  Of course I don't know the range of movement you have in your hands so I'm just guessing here.  


Btw I truely feel for you.  When I was younger I had a rather extreme case of bell's palsy.  For several months half of my face and to a lesser degree my left arm and hand were paralized.  I was etremely lucky in that they were able to treat mine early and I regained 99% of my motor control. (The doctor was amazed.)  I remember trying to play nintendo with only one good hand during those months so guess I kind of understand what your going through.

Let me know if I can do anything although I don't think my expertise could help you in this manner as I am primarily a software man.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »