Alchemy: Video Pinball Shmup Table

[griffindodd]

I'm thinking if the projector were actually inside the cabinet he would have to do some serious heat venting.  Those things get HOT and are not designed to be used in an enclosure.  You can damage a projector like that just by unplugging it right after turning it off because the fan needs to run for another minute or two while the thing cools down.

Even if the projector were a cheapo LCD job it's working inside a small enclosed dark cabinet.  A real projector like this Epson is going to have to be turned way down to minimum brightness or it's going to totally wash that material out.

Yep i agree with all of your points. All of these issues above are going to factor into the cab design, they're not easy to solve, but for me that's the biggest attraction and what makes the job worth attacking. I've been using projectors at home for about 10 years now so I've had a decent amount of exposure to their quirks and issues.

Here's my initial ideas to address those issues.

Heat - The PJ's will be mounted under the cabinet in their own housings for soundproofing with positive airflow forced through via extra fans, this setup is very common in home theater where you need to kill all fan noise by enclosing the PJ but then have to deal with the heat.

Turning on and off - I'll have to use an IR blaster that sends the double-tap shutdown command to the PJ's when a shutdown is initiated from windows, this will allow them to go through their proper cooling procedure.

Screen Washout - Highly unlikely with rear projection, plus I am using a dark gray/silver material to project onto. The uniform micro weave of Spandex essentially creates microscopic cells that capture the light hitting them, so it's not the same as blasting light at a reflective white/silver screen.

[ChadTower]

How are you going to display the cabinet?  In the middle of a room?  Most pins get put into places where the sides may as well be blank because they're covered up by other games or a wall.

[griffindodd]

How are you going to display the cabinet?  In the middle of a room?  Most pins get put into places where the sides may as well be blank because they're covered up by other games or a wall.

On an up-lit pedestal in the middle of a lake of fountains circled by a chorus of dancing unicorns.

[griffindodd]

Also on the subject of high heat displays, I think I'm going to look to plasma for the main playfield, zero angle of view issues, 0.2ms response time and 600mhz refresh rates pretty much scream gaming display over an LCD/LED. I'm looking at Panansonic as they pretty much dominate in picture quality and a u50 series can be found for around $600 or so.

[Ond]

How are you going to display the cabinet?  In the middle of a room?  Most pins get put into places where the sides may as well be blank because they're covered up by other games or a wall.

On an up-lit pedestal in the middle of a lake of fountains circled by a chorus of dancing unicorns.

Dancing unicorns?!, awesome!  Here's a link that might prove useful Griff.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/472263971/playsurface-the-affordable-multi-touch-computing-t

Someone else thinking about projectors in cabinets.  I was approached some time back to consider making a similar table for wargaming folk, apparently some dudes willing to part with serious $$$ for such a system.

[ChadTower]

Someone else thinking about projectors in cabinets. 

It's not like it's a new idea.  He's building a projection television.

[floriske.nl]

Really looking forward to seeing this build evolve! Looking at your previous projects I'm sure this will turn out awesome!

Also on the subject of high heat displays, I think I'm going to look to plasma for the main playfield, zero angle of view issues, 0.2ms response time and 600mhz refresh rates pretty much scream gaming display over an LCD/LED. I'm looking at Panansonic as they pretty much dominate in picture quality and a u50 series can be found for around $600 or so.

As a former audio visual technician I would advise you not to use a plasma for this. Why?  The risk of images burning in (it's called "burn" but actually it's the screen losing brightness faster on parts where a lot of light images are shown than where mostly dark parts are).

If you end up having a favorite cab to play you will also end up with a permanent image of it while playing other cabs. Exactly the reason why plasma is not used for gaming or pc monitors.

If you are stubborn and won't listen to me make sure that directly after buying it you turn it on for approx 50-100 hours with a pure white screen on it. The biggest risk of burn in is within this period but beware it will always remain when a certain screen is shown a lot.

My advise: go the lcd route.

Good luck on the build!

[griffindodd]

It's not like it's a new idea.  He's building a projection television.

Yep that's pretty much exactly what I'm trying to achieve here, I just hope I can do it in the space.

[griffindodd]

As a former audio visual technician I would advise you not to use a plasma for this. Why?  The risk of burning in. If you end up having a favorite cab to play you will also end up with a permanent image of it while playing other cabs. Exactly the reason why plasma is not used for gaming or pc monitors.

If you are stubborn and won't listen to me ;-) make sure that directly after buying it you turn it on for approx 50-100 hours with a pure white screen on it. The biggest risk of burn in less within this period but beware it will always remain when a certain screen is shown a lot.

My advise: go the lcd route.

Good luck on the build!

Yeah i had the same concerns so I went sniffing around the AVSForums and did my research. It seems the concerns of burn in are not really valid these days with modern plasma TVs, it's a misconception dragged on by experiences with older technologies. While I have no personal experience with this, I generally regard the users over at AVS as well educated on these matters. Combine that with that fact that non of my machines are left running for long periods of time (my wife is an energy nazi) I'm hoping that the advantages of Plasma will make sense in my use case.

[griffindodd]

I'm going for it! Just ordered a 51" Samsung PN51E530A3FXZA Plasma for $599 with free shipping.

It's got cased dimensions of 46.8" x 27.8" x 2.2" which means some decasing, some slot routing and a little luck may allow me to squeeze this beast into the 26.625" internals of the wide-body. It's going to have to sit all the way to the back of the cabinet leaving me about 3.5" clearance at the front which should be enough to accommodate the flipper button holes. I'm going to have to build the Mame control panel out in the front a little, but as it's only 1 player it can just step out in the middle of the cab.

Now where did I put that shoehorn and Vasoline?

[yotsuya]

Now where did I put that shoehorn and Vasoline?

Party in the Gaslamp?

[griffindodd]

Party in the Gaslamp?

More likely Hillcrest 

[griffindodd]

Here's a link that might prove useful Griff.

Thanks OND, interesting stuff, I can see I'm going to be spending a lot of time in the garage with mirrors and duct tape trying to work this projection cabinet out.

[griffindodd]

Thinking over the Backbox, I really like the shape of the Revenge from Mars Bally cabinet.



I'm not using any down firing screens but I do like the real estate it creates and could use it to house the computer hardware, this would put it up at a higher level to work on and keep it away from all the heat generated by the screens and projectors in the base box. I think this shape would work really well allowing my main play field to extend all the way to the back of the cabinet.

[Malenko]

they were shaped like the compensate for the CRT up top right?

[griffindodd]

they were shaped like the compensate for the CRT up top right?

Yep but I really like the proportions, not as 'skinny' looking as the traditional backbox, looks like a Ms.Pacman and an Addam's Family had an Alien Baby 

[ChadTower]

The CRT and the computer which is in a steel box about the size of your average desktop circa 1999.

[Jigenjuke]

Griff. you should really do the sides in OLED flexible super thin screens.  THAT WOULD BE HOT!!

Jigenjuke

[Zebtheboardguy]

I can't believe I registered just so I could read about spandex lined boxes.......

Ambitious project, I tossed around the active sideart idea for my 1st build but couldn't justify the cost. Good luck with it, it's sounding like a great plan.

[yotsuya]

I've always loved the shape of those Pinball2000 cabs.

[griffindodd]

Fun with displays.

Set the laptop screen as the top back glass. The ultra wide as the DMD and then mirrored the ultrawide onto the third monitor which represents the image that will be sent to the side projectors. If I write a ahk script that allows me to toggle the side projection mirroring through the other three screens including the play field then the sides of the cabinet could be marquee artwork, monster DMDs or even mirrors of the actual  play field itself. Endless wacky possibilities here



An example in Mame mode. Ultra wide showing the game marquee. Top back glass monitor showing flyers and screens. The side projectors filling the screens with the Marquee art.



Also, I just measured out the interior of the cabinet again and it's looking really good, the actual interior width is 27" so I just need to get back 0.8" from the decasing to have the panel fit without the need for any slotting at all. Measuring al the way to the back of the box I have 50.25" interior inches, so even at 47" length cased, I still fall just short of the existing flipper holes and leafs, I have a feeling this panel and box were secretly made in heaven for each other 30 years apart 

[griffindodd]

I can't believe I registered just so I could read about spandex lined boxes.......

Ambitious project, I tossed around the active sideart idea for my 1st build but couldn't justify the cost. Good luck with it, it's sounding like a great plan.

LOL. Hey Zeb thanks for dropping in, welcome to the madness.

[PL1]

I still fall just short of the existing flipper holes and leafs

Wait, you're not planning to add one button per side for Upper Flipper/MagnaSave?   


Scott

Edit: Misunderstood quoted section from previous post.

[griffindodd]

Wait, you're not planning to add one button per side for Upper Flipper/MagnaSave? 

I'll use two buttons per side but I'm not going all Franken-flipper on this thing with launch, save, spring, bounce, nudge, dribble, boink, extra ball, feather balls buttons. I want to use the original holes for the main flipper buttons and then maybe one other, I'm trying to keep as much of the original layout as possible while still accommodating everything I am trying to do.

[PL1]

I'll use two buttons per side

That'll cover regular flippers on one and upper flippers/MagnaSave on the other -- both inputs wired to one button.

You may also want to consider including a launch button on the front for tables like Jurassic Park that require timing on the launch.

I agree that you don't want to go all Franken-Flipper on this.

Worst case looks like 9 pinball buttons: 2 flippers per side, launch button, start button, and maybe 3 nudge buttons Left/Right/Up if the Mot-Ion nudge doesn't work right.

Not sure if nudging hard enough for the Mot-Ion accelerometers to register will cause problems with your projector bulbs.   

Adding the joystick and 3 MAME buttons requires 5 more inputs: P1B1 = Left MagnaSave = Left Control and P1B3 = Up Nudge = Space.


Scott

[floriske.nl]

As a former audio visual technician I would advise you not to use a plasma for this. Why?  The risk of burning in. If you end up having a favorite cab to play you will also end up with a permanent image of it while playing other cabs. Exactly the reason why plasma is not used for gaming or pc monitors.

If you are stubborn and won't listen to me ;-) make sure that directly after buying it you turn it on for approx 50-100 hours with a pure white screen on it. The biggest risk of burn in less within this period but beware it will always remain when a certain screen is shown a lot.

My advise: go the lcd route.

Good luck on the build!

Yeah i had the same concerns so I went sniffing around the AVSForums and did my research. It seems the concerns of burn in are not really valid these days with modern plasma TVs, it's a misconception dragged on by experiences with older technologies. While I have no personal experience with this, I generally regard the users over at AVS as well educated on these matters. Combine that with that fact that non of my machines are left running for long periods of time (my wife is an energy nazi) I'm hoping that the advantages of Plasma will make sense in my use case.

Ok, it's your call of course. I can imagine certain qualities of plasma make you go this route.

And yes the burn in risk is a lot lower compared to let's say ten years ago but it is still there. Just make sure you use the "white screen" trick to take away the biggest risk and don't play the same cab too often ;-)

Good luck on the build, progress is looking promising far!

[Mr Wilson]

awesome i love builds like this
we did you get your ultra wide from?
Ross

[griffindodd]

awesome i love builds like this
we did you get your ultra wide from?
Ross

HI Ross.
There was a girl selling shopped pinball machines on Craig's List, I sent her an email asking if by any chance she had any wide body corpses, turns out she had 3 lying around, so I picked out the best one.

[Jigenjuke]

Griff,

You're a cabinet making feind .  Nice ideas on this project.  Will be watching.

Jigenjuke

[HanoiBoi]

Ambitious plans.  Best of luck.

With the projector, do you have plans on securing/tightening in a manner that will prevent the projected side images from shaking, when the machine is being violently 'nudged'?

[griffindodd]

Thanks guys. Yep the projectors will be isolated from vibration

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

[Brian74]

Hey griff, I was thinking and I remember seeing this guy have made a cocktail table. He used a projector for the display. http://www.rototron.info/MT/MT.php

For the screen he used 1/4" acrylic that he sprayed with rear projection Screen Goo. http://www.goosystemsglobal.com/

Hope this helps.

[rockyrocket]

One thing to consider if going for a P2K style backbox and your 51" playfield is how much the head may overhang and obscure the rear playfield.
This build uses a honking great backbox screen for extra mame use, but with your proposed extra lengh will maybe ballance out visually.
I can remember someone did a cab a few years back with joys and a trackball also I think, although I can not find the link.
Good luck.

[yotsuya]

One thing to consider if going for a P2K style backbox and your 51" playfield is how much the head may overhang and obscure the rear playfield.
This build uses a honking great backbox screen for extra mame use, but with your proposed extra lengh will maybe ballance out visually.
I can remember someone did a cab a few years back with joys and a trackball also I think, although I can not find the link.
Good luck.

?    <-- Link?

[griffindodd]

One thing to consider if going for a P2K style backbox and your 51" playfield is how much the head may overhang and obscure the rear playfield.
This build uses a honking great backbox screen for extra mame use, but with your proposed extra lengh will maybe ballance out visually.
I can remember someone did a cab a few years back with joys and a trackball also I think, although I can not find the link.
Good luck.

yeah I see what you are getting at. Although I'm planning on taking styling tips from the P2k cabs, I won't be copying it exactly as those two screens are going to be crazy big together, the box is going to be fun though as it is going to define the whole look of this cab and give it it's character. Until I see how the base cabinet works out with lighting though I'm going to wait on deciding the back box design. Who knows I may put the DMD screen all the way in the back at the very back of the play field but bring the Backglass forward.

[rockyrocket]

One thing to consider if going for a P2K style backbox and your 51" playfield is how much the head may overhang and obscure the rear playfield.
This build uses a honking great backbox screen for extra mame use, but with your proposed extra lengh will maybe ballance out visually.
I can remember someone did a cab a few years back with joys and a trackball also I think, although I can not find the link.
Good luck.

?

Ok, to clarify most pinball 2000`s that have that type of backbox also have a shorter playfield, people building virtual ones often use a 37" playfield screen as oposed to a 46" being most common for a widebody.
My concern is that with griffs 51" main screen going so far back into the cab a P2K head may overhang the back and hide it unless its quite high or the player is not too tall.
This may be nonsence but thats how the dimentions look in my head.

[rockyrocket]

You got in there as I was replying griff .
Anyway what are you going to use for the mame controls a gamepad?, also this may help with displaying the marquee image.

[griffindodd]

You got in there as I was replying griff .
Anyway what are you going to use for the mame controls a gamepad?, also this may help with displaying the marquee image.

Mame controls will be a full control panel build into the top of the play field above the coin door, probably use an iPac or something along those lines.

[yotsuya]

You got in there as I was replying griff .
Anyway what are you going to use for the mame controls a gamepad?, also this may help with displaying the marquee image.

Mame controls will be a full control panel build into the top of the play field above the coin door, probably use an iPac or something along those lines.

Are you planning to make it detachable/fold out/hidden? Just wondering.

[griffindodd]

Are you planning to make it detachable/fold out/hidden? Just wondering.

No Idea, probably just fixed in place as part of the whole build