ami-man's advice on Rowe Ami jukeboxes

[Fredro]

Hi again, Alan - I finally got free from work for the weekend and I was able to get back to this.

You were absolutely right. The magazine motor does work. I located the 28 volts coming from the main power supply and hooked it up. It runs good and strong. So, evidently that's not the issue.

 While I was at it, I checked the function of the tone-arm cancel switch. It appears to be working well (open when the arm is at the rest position or on the surface of the record and then it closes at the end of a record). That may not have anything to do with the issues but I just thought I would throw that in.

I am not opposed to sending the CCC and mechanism control boards out for replacement or troubleshooting. At least then, I would be able to get the uncertainty on these components out of my head.  Any suggestions on this? Is there any other steps I can scope out here at home?

Thanks - Fredro (D.L. Weaver - Crescent City, Florida, USA) 

[pottersclay75]

My Rowe R-88 is having a transfer issue.  When a selection is made, the arm grabs the single just fine and places it on the turntable.  The single plays fine, but when the arm comes back down, it doesn't pull in to grab the single. It goes back up empty (and there's a click sound on the way).  If another selection is made, it will grab the next one and place it on top of the one it previously left.

I have watched it over and over, but I just can see what it going on. 

So why would it not be picking up the single from the turntable?

U.S.

[allz28]

I hope I'm posting this in the right place and not interrupting someone else's conversation.  And please also forgive me since I don't really know Jukebox terminology yet, though I'm a pretty handy guy.

I have a 1963 AMI/Rowe Jukebox (it's either a JAL-200 or JEL-200, but I can't find a model tag) that's been in my family for 28 years.  It got passed down to me and I haven't heard it play in about 15 years!  From what I remember, the jukebox was working perfectly until one day when my mother was cleaning the light bulbs with the front of the case open . . . she closed it up and suddenly the jukebox stopped working.  Since then, it's just sat in a basement untouched until now.

When I turn the machine on, the turntable starts turning and just turn endlessly.  When you try to select a number, nothing happens.  If you try to scan, I hear it try to scan (like I hear a relay or something activate), but it won't scan.  I've posted this YouTube video in case my description is hard to understand:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2idzzvpPviY&feature=youtu.be

I'm ordering a manual for the machine today.  But I'd really appreciate any help to get me started on this repair.  Thanks so much!

Hi Alan,  I've now had the chance to go through my manual several times and clean the relay contacts with paper as you suggested.  This didn't improve my symptoms. 

Upon closer inspection, the green/white frayed wires I mentioned appear to be soldered back together so I assume this is an older repair.  Unfortunately, the black/white wire that I mentioned that is not connected to anything has been difficult to trace.  As  of right now, all I can tell is that it goes into the main harness and then I lose track of it from there.  The wiring diagrams in my manual are particularly difficult to read because instead of referring to Blue as BL and Black as BK (like most automotive schematics I've seen) it uses B and BL and there is no key to say which refers to blue or black.

Anyway, the good news is I found a blown 3.2 amp Fustat Fuse in my junction box, which I'm hoping may cause the symptoms I'm seeing.  I plan to order a new one today, but should I be concerned about why it blew in the first place?

Thanks again for your knowledge and help!

[allz28]

Hello again!  The Fustat Fuse corrected my initial symptoms!!!!  But I'm not out of the woods yet.  My jukebox will now select a record and attempt to play it, but once the record starts playing, the tonearm does not advance and it plays the same thing each revolution.  It does this on any record selected.  The sound is also poor, but I'll try to tackle that issue once I get this thing playing records correctly. 

At first I thought that the set-down position needed adjusting, but this did not correct the problem.  In fact, the record repeats no matter where I place the tonearm in the track.  Then I thought stylus pressure may be too light, but this also did not correct the problem.  I have no way to measure grams and set the pressure precisely, but the record repeats even when I move the counterweight all the way in.

What should I look into next?  Thank you so much!

[lilshawn]

check the needle, you may have to flip it around (if it's the flipping type) or replace it. it sounds like it's not tracking properly. try taping a penny or dime to the play head and see if it will track, if it does, you may have to adjust the weight because maybe the play head has been changed and is too light compared to the original..... run-on sentence also i'm going to bed kthxbi

[allz28]

Thanks, lilshawn.  I tried the penny trick with no improvement.  I'll look into getting a new needle.

[Fredro]

I'm also having trouble with my needle/cartridge. While I am waiting for my circuit boards to come back, I have been looking at my needle/cartridge position. I am not happy with the way the cartridge is angled. To me it should have a slight downward angle so the needle point is the only part touching the record. My needle/cartridge doesn't have any angle to it at all and the back end of the cartridge drags slightly on the record as well. I can't believe this is supposed to be this way. My needle force is just about perfect too - 6.5 or so grams. I can't figure out if there is any sort of adjustment to correct this.

[lilshawn]

perhaps your arm is bent. something could have fallen on it in the past. depending on it's design, it should be perfectly straight or have a slight upwards bow to it. if it's bowed down, it's bent. aluminum doesn't take lightly to being bent, then bent back... it tends to snap. i wouldn't try bending it back if at all possible.

check your cartridge to see if it's loose, perhaps it's not sitting in straight. Again, depending on it's design... (they basically made these with whatever parts they could source I think) it may screw in and have become loose pushing the back end of the cart down with the dragging force of the record. or there may even be a wire under the cartridge causing it to sit funny.

also check to make sure you have the correct stylus...if the stylus is normally long, placing a shorter needle can cause the cartridge to drag. universal cartridges are normally a little longer to work with a wide variety of tone arm angles.

also, your needle may be worn down or missing part of it's tip (again depending on design) causing the cart to sit low.
basically, take it apart and make sure everything looks good and put it back together.

On models with the flippy type stylus, often one needle is made for 45's and the other is made for 78's (universal type) make sure you are using the correct "Side" for your records.

could be 100 different things...but check it out, you'll see something not quite right.

[JVader]

Hey guys, im currently working on an r-81 project in Canada. I had the amp sent off and rebuild and am now able to get sound through the speakers when I hook up my phone through some RCA cables directly to the amp.. The problem im having is very little sound while playing a record, I have a new stanton 500 cartridge and everything re soldered on the tone arm connection but am still unable to get any volume through the record player... Any suggestions where to start looking?

Thanks,
Jeff

[Adjuvant]

Hi all.  I just purchased an AMI / Rowe R-85 Starlight Jukebox and have a quick question.  I need to drive an hour to go pick it up this weekend and am wondering whether there will be any problem with laying it flat in the back of my SUV. I'd prefer not to have to rent a moving truck, but if it's imperative that it stay upright during transport, I will.

Thanks in advance and you will likely be hearing from me more in the future as I believe it's going to need some work. I love a project!

[Fredro]

I really don't think I would chance lying it down. No telling what could come loose inside the cabinet. Do you know anyone with a pickup truck?

[Fredro]

Well, I am so pleased with myself. My Rowe R-92 is working. My replacement circuit boards and power supply came in today. I wanted so bad to stay home from work and play with it all. I went to work and I put it all in and powered it up. I was so relieved that it actually started working and there's no error codes like I had before. I didn't even have to adjust the optical switches or anything.

There's still a couple two or three bugs to work out but at least it's working. Sounds decent too.   

[allz28]

Good for you, Fredro.  That's awesome.

[Joe1966]

Hi

I wonder if you can help.
I have a ami Rowe juke box with the wall box. Around 1965.
Recently when I use it, it allows the first selection but I have to use the scan/ on/ off switch to reset it, the box then clicks and a second selection can be made 

I had a man in who seems to have made it worse. The selection buttons fail to pop out now and stay depressed. A second selection cannot be made.

Is it ruined now?  Can it be repaired and can you recommend anyone in the East Midlands.

Thanks.

[ami-man]

Hello Fredro,

The cartridge weight need to no more than 3.5 grames.

I am glad to hear that you have got your parts back and it is working.

Regards
Alan

[ami-man]

Hello Adjuvant,

It is better if you can move the jukebox upright, but if you follow the standard tasks in prpairing a jukebox for transportation it should be ok. If the jukebox was a Seeburg then it would be upright or nothing.

You need to lock down the mechanism down to the base of the jukebox with the transit bolts.

Every board should have its fixing screws tightened down to prevent them coming adrift in transit.

The amplifier should have screws put into the cabinet near to the lift handle to prevent it coming off of its mountings.

The screws holding down the output package should be checked for tightness

If the jukebox is the Starlight the sount to light unit fixings must also be checked.

Remove all the records (if included) out of the mechanism.

Remove the Coin Mechanism and its bracket (this can be put into the cash bag) or just taped in place with gaffer tape.

Remove the turntable  or again tape down.

Use an elastic band to hold down the tone arm in place.

Use tape to hold the title rack in place.

Remove the mains plug and push the cable into the jukebox to pevent damage to the cable.

Tape over the door to prevent it springing open during transit.

On the journeys end remove all of the above before switching on the jukebox.

Please let us know how you get on.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

[ami-man]

Hello Joe1966,

Welcome to the forum.

That sounds as if you have problems with the two open relays in the keyboard (R1 & R5) the open/closed contacts need cleaning with a paper taper, you may also have to do the same on S1 & S2 relays on the Search Unit.

If you get into difficulty please get in touch.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
Sheffield
UK

[Fredro]

Right on the grams, Alan. I found that out last week. Already corrected. Problem solved. 

[allz28]

I got the new stylus today and actually got to hear a record play!  One record.  Then somehow I ruined my new needle.      I don't know exactly how i did it, and I don't really remember being rough with it, but I must have did it when I was making a couple fine tuning adjustments to my tonearm . . . doh! 

But anyway, I'm glad that took care of that problem and another one is ordered!  Thanks lilshawn!  In the meantime, I noticed that not all of my speakers are working.  In looking at my stereo control amplifier, I noticed I'm missing two 12AU7/ECC82 tubes.  I'm getting ready to buy them, but there's SOOOooooooo many choices and different brands.  Some as cheap as $10 and some as expensive as $70.  What's the difference and what should I look for when buying tubes.

[ami-man]

Hello Allz28,

If you have some speakers working and some not, it will be a connection issue. In some cases dependant on which Pre Amplifier is used it may have been modded so that all the original valves may not be needed.

Check all the cable colours to the output transformers (all of the E1 E2 etc) are as per your manual. also check that your crossovers are not shorted out and are connected correctly.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

[Adjuvant]

Alan, thanks for the recommendations on moving the jukebox. Unfortunately your post comes 5 days after I already moved it, but should hopefully help the next person with that question.  I did end up moving it upright and, unfortunately, in the rain.  It was covered in a tarp and then wrapped in mover's shrink plastic wrap, so only the bottom seems to have gotten slightly damp.  I'm lucky that it seems to have survived the trip well despite this, but I'm sorry I didn't have your advice earlier. 

A couple of questions as I'm nursing it back to health:
1) I have several bulbs burned out in the front, which I'm in the process of replacing, but the lights are not moving even when music is playing.  Comparing my light control module to the diagram in the module, I seem to be missing a control switch (in addition to the general filthiness that I'll be attending to this weekend).  I'm including a picture below.  Can you tell if there is supposed to be a switch to set Off/Flash/On and, if so, what the replacement should be?  I can't see that the manual lists a part number for the switch.


2) The volume on the back is very touchy.  Sometimes small movements cause big changes in the volume and other times I have to crank it several degrees before there's any change.  Do you think replacing the volume pot be the most likely solution?

Thanks,
- A 

[Joe1966]

Thanks, I will give it a try this weekend

[ami-man]

Hello Adjuvant,

The part number for the switch is 3-04290-01

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

[BGun]

This Rowe Ami Venus with CD-100F had stopped playing tracks completely through, pausing and unpausing intermittently.

I contacted Mr. Wentworth of New Hampshire, and he was of a mind that the mech control has been modified. It is a 61086201 with attached Combo-4 rev.1.0 board. He told me he couldn't help me if it's a mech control issue.

As he recommended, I checked the power supply voltages, and they seem fine. I tried disconnecting the bill feeder with no result.

I am very interested in replacing the CD mechanism with an MP3 player from cdadapter.com, but I'm afraid that this won't fix the pausing problem.

This is in Minneapolis, MN. Any aid is greatly appreciated.

[Adjuvant]

Well, I stepped in it.  I managed to break one of the wires leading into the molex plug from the optical switch to the mechanism control board while trying to clean it.  I think it was probably in poor shape to begin with since before this I was having trouble with the played record getting out of sync with the selections, i.e. the first 2 -3 plays were of the selections I had made, whereas subsequent plays would start being one to two positions off (for example it would play selection 164 when I had chosen 162).  Turning the jukebox off and on again and allowing the magazine to cycle would get the selection / played record sync back on again for a few plays before it would start drifting agin.

In any case, the white wire from the optical switch tore right at the end of the terminal.  I got the terminal out of the plug, but I can't undo the crimping so that I can replace the wire.  My preference would be to just get a new terminal and crimp the wire into it, but I have been searching in vain for the terminal online (on sites like this: http://www.mouser.com/Connectors/Pin-Socket-Connectors/_/N-ay0mm/ and http://www.newark.com/plug-socket-connector-contacts).  For the past two days I've been going cross-eyed trying to match my tiny terminal to the pictures on these sites and have not found it.  This is the closest I've found to a similar-looking terminal, but it's not a perfect match: http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-amp/3-640707-1/contact-receptacle-24-18awg-crimp/dp/52K3550

Can anyone either perhaps tell me what an equivalent part number for terminal socket is and where I might be able to find it?

I'm prepared to just solder the wire to this terminal, but I'd prefer to just replace the terminal if possible.  I just need to know where to find it.

Here are some crummy iPhone pictures of the terminal:




Thanks,
-A

[ami-man]

Hi Adjuvant,

the crimp in the link looks about right to me, it is good to get a few spares for your jukebox, in time you will need some if any are corroded.

In the meantime using a craft knife or small long nose pliers fold out the lugs that were crimped over the insulation of the cable, remove any wire or insulation in here. Strip the end of the effected wire to the opto switch and place in the two lugs you have created (it is best that you clean this area ready for soldering) now using the small pliers fold over the two lugs onto the striped wire to hold it in place and solder it. Make sure there are no blobs of solder on the connection or you will not be able to reincert it into the plug. Make sure that you have reset the pawl that hold the connection in place.

scan to location 99 and check your opto switch adjustment as per your manual.

Regards
Alan.

[sim_v]

Hi,

I've have a lot of trouble with a 'new' CD51 I'll bought. It's a 220v model but voltage is transformed into 120v inside the Juke Box. I'm french.
CCC version is 2.4, it's a old firmware.

In a first time I've got good sound but with some problem :
- All sound come from left
- Volume variation, bizarre control with remote control
- No fade out when I cancel track. Volume goes up loud and quickly !

I suspected remote control being bad connected or have a erratic behavior. 

Suddenly sound become very  low, saturated, noisy on left loudspeaker and nothing to right. Exactly like a mp3 with full volume (satured) in a headphone. no bass. no more Cap sound (thump) from loudspeaker at  power up and down.

I disconnected volume control from IR controller and restore old rear unique volume bouton. I discover by the way that STEREO jumper was badly inserted. Now both speakers give the same noisy output... that a bad thing.

I check preampl + amplifier : all fuse are good, I resoldered line input connector. I resoldered all IR controller connector too. Since this, I've final got a real fade out of sound when I disconnect volume control or reject a song.

The crossover filter (sub, mid, hi frequencies) have a bad capacitor on a side but I good same noisy sound direcly on a full range speaker without filter. I will change it later.

I tested CD PLAYER to a external amplifier and get good sound.

So problem come from preampl or amplifier.... but behaps a bad connexion....

I'm don't know how to fix that noisy sound....

Thank a lot if you can help me !

20 Mpix digital photos can be downloaded here : http://ovh.to/ftGNUQf (30 days publishing).

[lilshawn]

I'm not sure but the old firmware might be the issue. i know you have to have over a certain version for the IR to operate properly. maybe this is part of your issue. I'll try and find out what version.

in the mean time... for your volume...

on the amp is a switch for the AVC, if it's set to off, try setting it to on. If it's on, try turning it off.

this is the automatic volume control. it will detect a loud burst in the music and automatically turn it down. it will also make quiet sounds and passages louder. sometimes it can make the music sound weird. (going up and down and up and down)


try the other position and see if it's sound is prefered or better.

some volume control units behave odd. if you attach the manual volume control from the back of the machine instead of the remote, does it sound okay or does it do the same?

also check the terminal strip where the volume connects to. it has a jumper for mono and stereo volume connections/positions. be sure everything is tight. a loose jumper can cause weird things.

[sim_v]

Thanks a lot !

Yes, I use the rear manual volume control with same problem than remote (distortion)

I've just try AVC which give a bit more volume but I've alway hear a very "saturated" low sound (like a LP without amplification and PHONO adaptation ; no bass).
I've checked power for amplifier and got +39V and -39V in input for each amplifier.

On the amplifier, I found that they have no relay to disconnect speakers during power up and down. At the beginning I tested the unit, I noticed the typical thump of capacitor loading (power up) and bump-bump-bump-bump when I cut main power (capacitor unload).
Since distorted sound, I have no more thump in speaker... can be amplifier devices burned without fuse blow ? 

[lilshawn]

can be amplifier devices burned without fuse blow ? 

it's possible if the driver transistors (attached to big heatsink) have failed open.

if transistors are blown, sound is still produced, but is crackly and distorted like torn speaker cone or gravel sound.

[ami-man]

Hello Simon,

Welcome to the forum.

I would forget about the wireless remote and just stick to a wired remote. to rule out wiring issues on the jukebox make up a test volume control using a single 10k log control wired up to a five pin molex plug (you can always use the one that goes into the amp for a test)

On the plug link a cable from pin 1 to pin 5 and take this to one side of the 10k log pot, put a cable into pin 3 (if using the original plug move pin 4 to pin 3) take this cable to the wiper on the 10k pot.

If this does not control your amplifier or if it still does not sound correct then there is an issue on the amplifier (I noted that your connections are correct on the output package the Pink and Violet are connected to E6 left and right for maximum output)

If you can not repair the amplifier yourself I am only in the UK so you could send it to me for testing/repair.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

[sim_v]

Thanks a lot, I just make some pictures of amplifier cards and devices....
I will try make test submited by ami-man. I note the proposition of fix in UK (I'm afraid of ship costs)...
I ruined a capacitor this night with my multimeter (it's a surge ?) - see the last picture.

[sim_v]

I've tested transistors (notice that I'm not specialist but I learn...) from disconnected connectors of power amplifier cards.

Canal 1
2N6284 (NPN) BC=0.626V BE=0V CE=0V EC=0V (positive prob on first letter, negative prob on second, multimeter with diode tester)
2N6287G (PNP) BC=0.660V BE=0.641V CE=0V EC=0.495V (negative on first letter, positive on second, multimeter with diode tester)

Canal 2
2N6284 (NPN) BC=0.599V BE=0V CE=0V EC=0V (positive on first letter, negative on second, multimeter with diode tester)
2N6287G (PNP) BC=0.625V BE=0.644V CE=0V EC=0.495V (negative on first letter, positive on second, multimeter with diode tester)

I think that it's not good for the two 2n6284 ?

[lilshawn]

the transistors are what are known as "Darlington pair" it essentially has 2 transistors in series inside the package.

this (along with the other parts built into the transistor) make it very difficult to test...where even with a proper "transistor checker" it can read as OK when in fact it is not, because the electricity used in testing the transistor can go through multiple paths through the device.

i believe at this time you are maybe not looking in the correct direction. maybe can you post a video on youtube of how it sounds. having blown out transistors has a very specific sound.

[sim_v]

Oh I was so glad to my transitors check....

I just make this video :

[Adjuvant]

Quick question about the record magazine on the R-85.  It has recently started making a lot more noise during rotation. It's a scraping / squeaking sound.  It seems like it should be amenable to a drop or two of oil somewhere.  The Manual discusses where to oil the turntable, but makes no mention of the record magazine.  Any guidance from experience on where I can or can't oil the magazine so I don't ruin anything?

Thanks,
- A

[ami-man]

Hello Adjuvant,

Forget any oil, try and find out what is making the noise and then rectify the problem correctly.

Possible noises can be from a worn spragwheel (teeth worn through caused by uneven record loading) stem bushing rotted by someone oiling the mechanism. Sprag linkage not adjusted correctly  and the linkage is catching on the linkage. It does not effect the gripper bow as much on the R-84 mechanism upwards but on the 1100 & 1200 mechanism there was a plastic strip on the guide & belt assembly that if broken would allow the the gripper bow to drop, the result was that when the mechanism turned the gripper bow would clip all of the records.
There is a plastic piece on the R-84 mechanism but there is  metal behind it so this should not happen.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

[sim_v]

I just make this video :

I made the troubleshoot test from the manual (short all pins of volume control, press finger in pin 1 or 3 in PHONO pins and test line output and speaker output), I receive strange results even without pressing my finger...
so I made this first test : remove preamp PCB and inject a line input on amplifier card without success (some scratch in speakers; no sound).
I made a second test : extract line output from preamp (after mute, equalizer, volume control, etc) and send it to a external amplifier .... good sound !

So we can conclude to a power amp failure ?

[allz28]

Let me start by giving everyone on here a big THANK YOU as I now have a running jukebox!  Now I just need to continue working so that it'll eventually run perfect.

Alan, thank you for your advice about my speakers that aren't working.  Using it, I was able to get my low frequency speaker working again (though it's not as loud as I was expecting).  However, my high frequency speaker is still not working and the wiring all looks good.  I performed an ohms test on it and it showed 0 ohms, so am I safe to assume that the speaker is bad?  Or is this test not valid with old speakers like this?

I'm also having a problem where the Jukebox only wants to play the B side of records.  I performed the adjustments as per my manual to the toggle shifter/plunger and this improved the problem so that it will now sometimes play the A side of records, but not always.  It seems like the plunger just doesn't always have enough power to pull the toggle link event though it moves easily by hand.  Is there a way to lubricate it?  Or is there something I should be replacing?  Any advice would be great.

Thanks again!

[lilshawn]

Oh I was so glad to my transitors check....

I just make this video :

in your video it appears the wire connector that plugs onto the "volume" pins on the amp (middle bottom... has 2 white and a purple wire) is on upside down. the connector should be turned and plugged on so the purple is closest to the rear. this could explain some of your sound issues.