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Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.

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jimmer:


--- Quote from: RandyT on February 08, 2013, 02:42:54 pm ---One thing I find curious is the stance you have taken that firing speed is unimportant, yet have gone to several lengths in order to measure how fast one can fire with each button.  Then when you say that all are equal based on your measurements, and I demonstrate how they are not, using the same software you wrote and based your conclusion upon, suddenly it's not important.  So you seem to be bouncing around a bit with what your requirements are.   You also seem to be attempting to discredit a fairly well known fact that leaf switches are the standard upon which lesser approaches are judged, particularly with the titles in question.

--- End quote ---

Almost everything I have written is about firing in Defender.
You stated:

--- Quote --- For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about
--- End quote ---

My stance is that I've yet to see evidence that super-rapid firing is important for Defender. My measurements seem to show that the best players do not use super-rapid firing. They don't appear to fire any faster than 120ms which happens to be the speed I got with all 3 buttons.

I have acknowledged that a super-rapid burst would be good for some instances. And I would dearly love to see a video of the fabled floating technique being used on Defender. You or Xiaou feel free to make one.

Quite what you were doing with your button to get the super-fast time we don't know, but I think we established you weren't pressing up and down on a button mounted in a control panel.

RandyT:


--- Quote from: jimmer on February 08, 2013, 03:10:39 pm ---My stance is that I've yet to see evidence that super-rapid firing is important for Defender. My measurements seem to show that the best players do not use super-rapid firing. They don't appear to fire any faster than 120ms which happens to be the speed I got with all 3 buttons.

I have acknowledged that a super-rapid burst would be good for some instances. And I would dearly love to see a video of the fabled floating technique being used on Defender. You or Xiaou feel free to make one.

Quite what you were doing with your button to get the super-fast time we don't know, but I think we established you weren't pressing up and down on a button mounted in a control panel.

--- End quote ---

So what do you do in those instances where you need it and cannot provide it?  The answer is, you start on your next life, should you still happen to have one in reserve.

In at least one of those videos, "the best player" is using an ASCII stick.  So why aren't you using one of those?  I'm sure they are much less expensive, and certainly less trouble to acquire.  The one statement which would trouble me the most, were it me in your position, is where that player is mistakenly referring to his non-leaf switch buttons as leafs, and going further to say that he cannot fire as fast with those as he can with the ASCII stick.  In making such a statement, he is indicating a limitation is being imposed upon his play in specifically the areas which you don't find much importance in, with the very buttons you claim offer the same performance as real leaf switch buttons.  With these things considered, the conclusions you seem to be holding dear, simply don't add up.

But I can answer the ASCII stick question, and it's a simple one.  You aren't him.  In fact, I'm not him, and neither quite probably is anyone reading this thread.  He is a 1%er.  For the rest of us mere mortals in the 99% group, we will need at least the advantage afforded to the players by the original machine in order to have a fighting chance.

As for the "floating" of switches, those who play with actual leaf switches may not even be aware it's happening.  1500points called it "the sweet spot", and it's essentially the point at which one can stream button events to the system at a rate near to that of which it can accept them.  In a game like Joust, this can be very advantageous to get above a rapidly approaching/ascending opponent.  In Defender, it reduces the accuracy required to hit swarmers and mutants.  It's one of those things experienced players don't need....until they need it.  And you can trust me when I say those players aren't just "pressing up and down".  Observing the player, and not just the screen, yields much better information.

Also, if you could, please try to refrain from quoting millisecond time frames with regard to the videos.  There is no accurate way for a human to view any activity and state, with the level of certainty you seem to have, the intervals being observed at that resolution.  There are moments in those videos where the shots are overlaid, or on adjacent pixels.  One really can't possibly know the rate in those instances from casual observation, and certainly not from a compressed video.


jimmer:


I have not claimed Goldleafs are better than or even as good as leafs.

You are maikng claims about leafs and I am asking for evidence.
It's not even that I don't believe you and Xiaou, I do.     I JUST WANT TO SEE IT.

As a vendor these things, I'm a surprised you don't have a video on your website showing how fast people can fire with your buttons, but that's your choice.


As to the videos, if I can see bullet 1 just emerging from the ship in frame1 and bullet 4 just emerging in frame 11 and the frame rate is 33ms, then thats as near to 330ms as we need to worry about.

RandyT:


--- Quote from: jimmer on February 08, 2013, 05:03:22 pm ---As a vendor these things, I'm a surprised you don't have a video on your website showing how fast people can fire with your buttons, but that's your choice.

--- End quote ---

Heh, as I just stated, I am not a 1%er.  Should I try to find one in today's world and hire him for a promotional video?  But I'd be happy to send Mike a free button to hear his thoughts (plus I feel a little bad for him.)

Besides, I did show you what is possible, and that with the software you wrote and have been using for comparisons.  Unless you think I hooked up a frequency generator to an encoder just to pull your chain, I'm not sure what else you need.  But I will challenge you for a change.  Let's see if you can duplicate, or better, the 6 presses with the average 36ms interval with any sort of regularity.  And just so we are comparing objectively, please feel free to do it while holding the button in your hand ;)


--- Quote ---As to the videos, if I can see bullet 1 just emerging from the ship in frame1 and bullet 4 just emerging in frame 11 and the frame rate is 33ms, then thats as near to 330ms as we need to worry about.

--- End quote ---

Look into how video compression works.  It's an exercise in futility to try to calculate things this way.  Not that it's even relevant what the "pros" with ASCII sticks do, based on everything that has been stated thus far.

jimmer:


--- Quote from: RandyT on February 08, 2013, 05:20:17 pm ---Besides, I did show you what is possible, and that with the software you wrote and have been using for comparisons.  Unless you think I hooked up a frequency generator to an encoder just to pull your chain, I'm not sure what else you need.  But I will challenge you for a change.  Let's see if you can duplicate, or better, the 6 presses with the average 36ms interval with any sort of regularity.  And just so we are comparing objectively, please feel free to do it while holding the button in your hand ;)

--- End quote ---

I've no interest in holding the button in my hand and trying to get a 'good score' on my test software. For what it's worth (which is ZERO) I can do a 4burst in 80ms by rubbing 4 fingers across a CLASSX.

If you yourself are not capable of floating your own switch at high speed, and you don't know anyone who is, perhaps you should tone down your statements about what's possible with it.






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