FS: mini SLG 2X (scanline generator) (Colorado, USA)

[joeH]

Crafty, thanks for answering my question.  Looking forward to mine.

Another related question, hopefully you or somebody else knows the answer.  While I'm going to use this mainly for PC emulation, I also have a Dreamcast and a Saturn I hook up to a 24" monitor via S-Video.  Can I buy a S-video to VGA adapter box, connect your SLG, and then run that out to the monitor?  I've read conflicting reports, and many say that a CGA to VGA upscaler is needed as the in-between.  Problem is that the upscalers take a component input instead of s-video or composite, and I don't think there was a component out made for either the Saturn or Dreamcast.

[CraftyMech]

Another related question, hopefully you or somebody else knows the answer.  While I'm going to use this mainly for PC emulation, I also have a Dreamcast and a Saturn I hook up to a 24" monitor via S-Video.  Can I buy a S-video to VGA adapter box, connect your SLG, and then run that out to the monitor?  I've read conflicting reports, and many say that a CGA to VGA upscaler is needed as the in-between.  Problem is that the upscalers take a component input instead of s-video or composite, and I don't think there was a component out made for either the Saturn or Dreamcast.

As long as the end result of the conversion is a standard VGA signal @ 640x480, with a -vsync, then the mini SLG would work. I can't say though if the result would be worth it however, given all the variables between the signal output from the console and the input of the mini SLG. The only console I have tested the mini with is the Xbox 360 @ 1024x768. So I can't recommend the mini for use with any legacy consoles, given a converter of one sort or another would be needed, and the quality of that conversion is a wildcard.

That said, you might want to check out this website with a ton of info about various converters, etc. for getting legacy consoles and hardware to work on modern displays: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de

[joeH]

Another related question, hopefully you or somebody else knows the answer.  While I'm going to use this mainly for PC emulation, I also have a Dreamcast and a Saturn I hook up to a 24" monitor via S-Video.  Can I buy a S-video to VGA adapter box, connect your SLG, and then run that out to the monitor?  I've read conflicting reports, and many say that a CGA to VGA upscaler is needed as the in-between.  Problem is that the upscalers take a component input instead of s-video or composite, and I don't think there was a component out made for either the Saturn or Dreamcast.

As long as the end result of the conversion is a standard VGA signal @ 640x480, with a -vsync, then the mini SLG would work. I can't say though if the result would be worth it however, given all the variables between the signal output from the console and the input of the mini SLG. The only console I have tested the mini with is the Xbox 360 @ 1024x768. So I can't recommend the mini for use with any legacy consoles, given a converter of one sort or another would be needed, and the quality of that conversion is a wildcard.

That said, you might want to check out this website with a ton of info about various converters, etc. for getting legacy consoles and hardware to work on modern displays: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de

Thanks for the reply! I'll check out the link you posted too. 

[southpaw13]

Got mine in!  It makes my LCD look like crap!  Awesome!!!!

Great work,
-SP

[CraftyMech]

Great to hear SouthPaw!

Now I take it you mean the mini SLG makes your LCD without scanlines look like crap?

[southpaw13]

Absolutely!  Thanks for making these!

-SP

[CraftyMech]

Production Update:

So I've built and shipped nearly 75 units since I started taking orders right before Christmas. The positive feedback has been great, and the mini SLG is being used successfully on a wide variety of hardware.

One problem that has surfaced is a strong green tint to the display with the mini SLG when connected to some PC video cards. This issue is uncommon, but I've had a couple users encounter it. I've developed a design fix that solves the issue, thanks to one user's gracious loan of his PC hardware for me to debug the circuit design against.

So I want to switch to the modified design for every unit I build going forward, especially given that PC-MAME builds account for a big chunk of the mini's user base. However, that means I need to order a new batch of circuit boards to accomodate the design changes, and that process will take about two weeks.

So until further notice (about two weeks) I am pausing production of the mini SLG while I order new circuit boards.

I will still accept orders in the mean time, and will fill them in the order received once the new boards are in. Payment won't be expected until I'm ready to ship out your order.

thanks for your patience, scanlines for everyone!

Aaron

[southpaw13]

So what is the hardware setup that gives these problems?

[Malenko]

I left him feedback on his profile, but I thought I'd leave some here too.

Great little device, small footprint, and excellent results. Pretty fantastic!

[CraftyMech]

So what is the hardware setup that gives these problems?

The issue has been reported with these Nvidia cards: 8600GT, GeForce 7025, GT555M & Ion chipsets.

60-in-1 boards, Gonbes 8220 CGA->VGA board, etc. are not affected, the issue only occurs with certain Nvidia PC video cards.

Southpaw, if any of your setups have those cards, or you run into the issue with something else, I'll send you replacement units right away when I get the new circuit boards in stock.

That goes for everyone else as well. I follow up on all my orders as a matter of course, but if I have not already touched base with you and you encounter the "green monster vision" issue, I'll get you a replacement unit as well, no worries.

I'm committed to 100% customer satisfaction. My profit from sales of the mini is nominal, and has been reinvested in improving the product. I sell these tidy little devices cheap because I believe everyone with an LCD setup should try scanlines out to improve the display. Once you try scanlines, you'll never go back! 

[BadMouth]

The issue has been reported with these Nvidia cards: 8600GT, GeForce 7025, GT555M & Ion chipsets.

Three of those were mine.      (I was not the one who loaned him the hardware for troubleshooting)
The same mini-slg worked as it should on a 7300 in different PC.
All testing was done at 1024x768 because my Nvidia drivers won't go lower than 800x600.  (need to tinker with that)

Here is what it looks like if you're curious:


CraftyMech will stand behind his product.

[chopperthedog]

After getting a new computer I finally get to use the miniSLG on my space invaders table. I had the nvidia ion thingy in the table (which had the green schtuff in the black lines), but that computer also suffered from a very annoying audio tick that has plagued me since I bought that thing. Running mame at 640x480 and mala at 800x600 the slg works and looks great.

Fit all the pЯon you can on my computer before you send it back. 


good day.

[CraftyMech]

Chopper: You mean gigabytes of photos of vintage arcade cabinets right? Thanks again for letting me borrow your hardware, it has been very helpful to have on hand for testing the new version of the SLG design.

[southpaw13]

Hello, I thought the green hue was part of the affect.  Can't you just adjust the green down on the monitor to fix this?

Love the product, but honestly I am a little confused.  I am not apposed to sending my units back and actually paying for the newer board.  PM me

-SP

[CraftyMech]

Hey Southpaw sorry for the confusion, PM sent!

The green-screen issue is hard to miss, and can't really be adjusted out. It only occurs with certain PC video cards, so 60-in-1s, Multi-Williams, GBS-8220 CGA->VGA converter, dedicated hardware boards, and most PC video cards will still look great.

I just wanted to take the initiative and get out in front of this problem since I knew a couple users had ran into it, and make a design change at a time when my stock of parts was getting low. So the only real benefit of the new board will be to correct the green-machine issue for those that have run into it, otherwise the designs perform exactly the same.

[vanrose72]

I love the way it makes classic games look more legit on an LCD monitor. It's the same effect I was trying to achieve using HLSL until I realized my video card was weak sauce.

Thanks SO MUCH!

[cmoses]

Very interested in this little device. I was curious if someone could post pictures of this device vs just using the scanlines.jpg effect in the MAME.ini.

I have been tinkering with just the scanlines effect as well as the whole HLSL settings. I like this option sine it is hardware based and won't add any overhead to the software.

Thanks


Sent from my iPad Mini using Tapatalk HD

[CraftyMech]

Thanks VanRose for your feedback!

cmoses: Here is my attempt at a direct comparison in Mame @ 640x480 on my Sony 18" LCD. For the Mame scanlines I used the standard 50% option as that seemed closest to the scanline intensity that the mini SLG produces. The angles of the two photos are not quite the same, but I think you can see the difference. I like the more natural, authentic look of the mini SLG, compared to the straight scanlines in MAME. HLSL certainly brings MAME scanlines to a new level, so the difference between the mini & HLSL would be harder to quantify, and of course HLSL provides a lot of tweaking for a specific look for individual games.

[Nephasth]

...HLSL certainly brings MAME scanlines to a new level, so the difference between the mini & HLSL would be harder to quantify, and of course HLSL provides a lot of tweaking for a specific look for individual games.

But why even go through the trouble when there's a literal plug and play solution?

Can't say it enough CraftyMech, great work!

[Malenko]

But why even go through the trouble when there's a literal plug and play solution?

Can't say it enough CraftyMech, great work!

Agreed. No impact on performance and it looks fantastic.

[yotsuya]

Thirded. That's why I nominated it for the UCAs. I own four of these bad boys.

[CraftyMech]

Thanks for the support guys!

I sent BadMouth a unit with the modified design a few days ago, and today he had a chance to test it out on his setups. No more green tint! I've verified the fix with ChopperDog's hardware (Nvidia Ion chipset) as well.

So I'm confident the issue with the mini SLG and certain nvidia graphics cards has been solved.

New circuit boards are in process, and will be in my hands this coming Friday. So I'll be all set to start shipping new units again starting Monday, the 11th.

With everyone's help the mini SLG is maturing as a product, and I'm excited to continue to expand sales. Scanlines for everyone!

[chopperthedog]

  glad I could assist (meaning, boxing something up and dragging my sap ass to the post office) in the development of a very neat solid little product.


good day.

[cmoses]

Thanks VanRose for your feedback!

cmoses: Here is my attempt at a direct comparison in Mame @ 640x480 on my Sony 18" LCD. For the Mame scanlines I used the standard 50% option as that seemed closest to the scanline intensity that the mini SLG produces. The angles of the two photos are not quite the same, but I think you can see the difference. I like the more natural, authentic look of the mini SLG, compared to the straight scanlines in MAME. HLSL certainly brings MAME scanlines to a new level, so the difference between the mini & HLSL would be harder to quantify, and of course HLSL provides a lot of tweaking for a specific look for individual games.

CraftyMech,

Thanks for the great comparison photo. That really does show off the difference well. I agree that the mini SLG has a more natural look and also a more authentic one. I have a few more questions I hope you can answer.

1. Is there a visual difference between running at 640x480 and 1024x768?  Quality of the lines?

2. I have a 19" monitor that's native resolution is 1280x1024. If I run my front end (HyperSpin) at this resolution and then MAME at 1024x768 or 640x480 then I should only get the scan lines in MAME, correct?

3. Just an observation but it appears in your DK pictures that the scan lines are not as prominent in the color dark blue (dark blue barrel and Paulina's blue shoes). Is that just in the picture or are the scan lines bluish in color? 

Thanks for the info. I think I will be ordering one this week.


Sent from my iPad Mini using Tapatalk HD

[CraftyMech]

1. Is there a visual difference between running at 640x480 and 1024x768?  Quality of the lines?

2. I have a 19" monitor that's native resolution is 1280x1024. If I run my front end (HyperSpin) at this resolution and then MAME at 1024x768 or 640x480 then I should only get the scan lines in MAME, correct?

3. Just an observation but it appears in your DK pictures that the scan lines are not as prominent in the color dark blue (dark blue barrel and Paulina's blue shoes). Is that just in the picture or are the scan lines bluish in color?

1. That depends on the LCD display native resolution. I also have a 1280x1024 LCD, and 640x480 looks best with perfectly alternating scanlines. Some banding may occur at 1024x768 if that resolution is a mismatch for the native res of the LCD. However, some users have reported 1024x768 looks best with their displays. Generally speaking, I recommend 640x480 as the preferred resolution for the mini SLG.

2. Right, higher resolutions wont have scanlines, so running the front end @ 1280x1024 will give you a normal display for your front-end.

3. Sharp observation! Part the photo not being taken at a straight-on angle, and part because the scanline intensity for the blue channel is not quite as prominent as red & green. The mini is a single chip design that uses two logic gates to control scanlines for the 3 color channels R,G,B. Typically, a hue is comprised of data from more then one channel, so the difference only occurs for pure blue. The scanlines themselves are display data lines reduced in intensity by about 75%, rather than being a specific color.

[Bascule]

I've been in search of a SLG that doesn't break the bank, and this seems to fit the bill perfectly.

I've just joined the forum on the strength of this and as soon as I have PM rights, I'll be ordering one.

[1500points]

I'm not a visual snob, but this project is quite interesting.
ordered 2 and looking forward to their arrival.

[CraftyMech]

I've been in search of a SLG that doesn't break the bank, and this seems to fit the bill perfectly.

I've just joined the forum on the strength of this and as soon as I have PM rights, I'll be ordering one.

Hey Bascule, you can also send an email to me as well: orders@craftymech.com

[Bascule]

I've been in search of a SLG that doesn't break the bank, and this seems to fit the bill perfectly.

I've just joined the forum on the strength of this and as soon as I have PM rights, I'll be ordering one.

Hey Bascule, you can also send an email to me as well: orders@craftymech.com

That's great, thanks!

[cmoses]

Very interested as well.  The few screen shots and comparison shots look really good. If anyone who has one is willing to post some screen shots that would be great.

CraftyMech,

Did you receive the boards in last week? Still looking to be able to ship out on the 11th?

[CraftyMech]

Actually, it was this week that I was expecting the boards, and they are on schedule according to the production house for Thursday. The company is local to me, so I'll be able to start building new units as early as Friday.

So still on track for the 11th!

[Nephasth]

Very interested as well.  The few screen shots and comparison shots look really good. If anyone who has one is willing to post some screen shots that would be great.

There's quite a few screenshots in this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,128970.0.html

[CraftyMech]

I posted a bunch in Reply #45 of the thread above that Nephasth linked to.

Some of the photos are from the original prototype of the device (Le Chucks & Nephasth) that  had adjustable color balance, a feature that was later removed to simplify the design.

[1500points]

the ledges in Joust might make for a good comparison.  getting that smooth 3dish effect instead of pixels.  like the ostrich's eye and feathers, too.

[CraftyMech]

the ledges in Joust might make for a good comparison.  getting that smooth 3dish effect instead of pixels.  like the ostrich's eye and feathers, too.

Good idea, I'll see if I can get a shot of Joust & the mini in action.

The new circuit boards have been marked as "shipping" by the pcb house, so should be heading my way shortly!

[cmoses]

Placed my order for a mini SLG today. Very impressed with everything I have seen and read and I can't wait to get it and try it out. I am working on a cocktail cabinet that will have a 19" LCD monitor in it. Planning to run the HyperSpin front end at 1280x1024 with no scan lines and MAME at 640x480 with scan lines.

Clayton


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[CraftyMech]

Hey everyone, new circuit boards arrived yesterday afternoon!

I've spent the last 24 hours (almost all of the waking part anyway) testing, and then some more testing. The new boards work great, I've already built a couple of the new units, and Sat & Sun are going to be all-day build days. I have a good backlog of podcasts (Nerdist w/ Chris Hardwick, and Neil Degrasse Tyson's Startalk) to listen to while I work.

[cmoses]

Great news. I can't wait to get the one I ordered.

3 days of assembly? How big of a order backlog do you have? Or are you just trying to get ahead of the game?  Hopefully you can do them in some sort of assembly line procedure. Open up all the cases, connect the wires, solder the wires, assemble, close the cases.

Good luck and good progress for your weekend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[CraftyMech]

3 days of assembly? How big of a order backlog do you have? Or are you just trying to get ahead of the game?  Hopefully you can do them in some sort of assembly line procedure. Open up all the cases, connect the wires, solder the wires, assemble, close the cases.

A little bit of both, I do like to get ahead when I can. I'm also very methodical about my build process, and I test each unit thoroughly, so that slows me down a bit. I have to finish up by Sunday night though, in time for the new episode of The Walking Dead on AMC

[southpaw13]

Got my updated ones in today!  Pics attached!  Finally found a way to make laser disc games look correct on a LCD monitor.  Some vertical games to look at.  And one of the pics is what I bought on e-bay for a 1.64 to add to the SLG! 

Thanks for a great product!
-SP