Cant install drivers in groovymame win xp 64. Visiontek HD 4350 ATI

[TJCOMBO]

Will this card work?  I tried uninstalling the drivers in the device manager and I used the appropriate crt drivers but I am getting an error message. Many thanks.

[Calamity]

Find the hardware PCI IDs of that card (device manager-> display adapters-> properties-> details. Copy them here.

[TJCOMBO]

This is what I have reading in there now:
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9553&SUBSYS_3000148C&REV_00\4&52EDC45&0&0048


ETA:

I think this is what you are looking for instead:

Hardware IDs:
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9553&SUBSSYS_3000148C&REV_00
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9553&SUBSSYS_3000148C
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9553&CC_030000
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9553&CC_0300

[TJCOMBO]

I take it this could be one of those Mobility cards?

[TJCOMBO]

OKAY.  I managed to find a thread where you discussed that this is a Mobility card and I ran the mod patch.

I am very confused because the card is recognized as a mobility ATI 4570 and I am not sure the drivers are installed correctly.  What is the deal with me buying a 4350 and its not?  I think that is the major bug here in my setup.

  I followed the steps with editing the VMaker using the NANAO MS-2930/MS-2931 and tested a couple of games and I was really liking what I saw.  However, the picture on the Windows desktop had lines and the monitor did not sound right (I am still new to this, so maybe it was running in interlaced at the wrong horizontal freq?).  I tested MK and it ran great.  The Windows desktop bothered me and I was afraid I'd damage the monitor if something were off.

Anyway,

Here are the monitor specs:
Makvision 25" Tri-Mode Monitor

15/24/31 kHz Hfreq and 47-70 Hz Vfreq with a max resolution of 640x480.

M3125DBC-82 is the model on the chassis.


I went with the NANAO MS-2930/MS-2931 settings, but I am not sure this is 100% correct.  Please let me know if I am missing something.  And many things for your hard work and efforts.

[TJCOMBO]

Please let me know if I am on the right track with this.  The games aren't displaying in the correct resolution and the speed is incorrent. I just hope I have the right card to do this.  Thanks.

[Calamity]

Hi TJCOMBO,

I think you're on the right track indeed, if you were able to mod and install the driver. The fact that the card is recognize as 4570 should not matter as long as it works. This info is from the pcidatabase site:

http://www.pcidatabase.com/search.php?device_search_str=9553&device_search=Search

As for your monitor setup, the NANAO MS-2930/MS-2931 settings may provide a good approach although I will adapt it to my particular monitor to achieve the most perfect geometry.

If you need a 640x480 progressive resolution, edit ReslList.txt and modify the refresh of the corresponding entry from 30 to 60. Interlaced (30) is the default to make sure we always have a 15 KHz resolution available for regular arcade monitors.

Make sure to get the latest versions of VMMaker/Arcade_OSD here: http://mame.3feetunder.com/windows-ati-crt-emudriver/

Attach here some log of your problematic games (groovymame ronmane -v -md 4 >romname.txt) so I can see what's the problem.

[TJCOMBO]

Thanks for the help.  I can't pull the game logs at the moment, but I assume you can detect the majority of problems from them once I do? The computer isn't connected to the internet right now.

I ran Galaga and Mk2.  The resolutions did not fill the screen and they were running at 80% or so.  It is strange considering that I think they worked the first setup.  When starting from scratch and installing the drivers,  I uninstalled it from the device manager.  I'm just wondering if they are installed correctly.  They weren't running in interlaced on the reboot and I think they were the first time. Ill try to get those txt logs soon.  Much thanks thus far!

[TJCOMBO]

Here are the attachments for Galaga and MK 2.

[Calamity]

Hi TJCOMBO,

The modelines for Galaga and MK2 are correct, so you've got everything right.

- Galaga runs slow because we can't make a 15-KHz modeline with 288 lines that works at 60 Hz, we only can get 51 Hz or so, so when vsyncing the game's speed is reduced accordingly. If you wan't to run Galaga at 100% speed create an specific ini for it and add the option -triplebuffer. Bear in mind that you won't have smooth scrolling as the refresh will still be 51 Hz.

- MK2 modeline is right but you only get 98% speed, that's very probably a CPU issue, I'm afraid.

As for the fact that these resolutions don't fit the screen, you probably need to get more accurate monitor_specs. If other resolutions are fine, then you need to define a subrange for the odd ones were the right margins are defined. There are several threads in the forum were this is explained. You need to use Arcade_OSD, tweak some modelines and use the values obtained to create new monitor_specs from them. Not too difficult if you know what to do, but it requires some patience. However, not many users go that far, but at least the tools are there for any one.

[TJCOMBO]

Hi TJCOMBO,

The modelines for Galaga and MK2 are correct, so you've got everything right.

- Galaga runs slow because we can't make a 15-KHz modeline with 288 lines that works at 60 Hz, we only can get 51 Hz or so, so when vsyncing the game's speed is reduced accordingly. If you wan't to run Galaga at 100% speed create an specific ini for it and add the option -triplebuffer. Bear in mind that you won't have smooth scrolling as the refresh will still be 51 Hz.

- MK2 modeline is right but you only get 98% speed, that's very probably a CPU issue, I'm afraid.

As for the fact that these resolutions don't fit the screen, you probably need to get more accurate monitor_specs. If other resolutions are fine, then you need to define a subrange for the odd ones were the right margins are defined. There are several threads in the forum were this is explained. You need to use Arcade_OSD, tweak some modelines and use the values obtained to create new monitor_specs from them. Not too difficult if you know what to do, but it requires some patience. However, not many users go that far, but at least the tools are there for any one.

Thanks for the help so far. 

My CPU is a AMD|ATH II X3 455 3.3G AM3 RT.  My thinking is that processor is plenty fast for the likes of MK2.  I am having issues with a host of a number of other modern games as well.  MK2 ran along with others such as KI and KI2 just fine when ArcadeVGA3000 was installed, so I am not sure it is a CPU issue. Maybe I need a higher powered graphics card?

[Calamity]

The graphic card does not make any difference for MAME performance, this is a fact.

You need to distinguish among reduced speed due to refresh restrictions and genuine underperformance. This is pretty obvious once you have some experience but may confuse at first.

Always look at the logs to see if the calculated modeline has the desired refresh or this is lowered to accomodate your monitor specs.

If you have the right refresh and still can't get a particular game to reach a rock solid 100% speed value then trust me when I say it's a CPU issue. I don't necessarily mean your CPU is not fast enough, it may be some undesired task running in the background or something.

Keep in mind this: by default, GroovyMAME runs all games with v-sync enabled, as this is the reason of its existence. Running a game v-synced means you need more CPU power to run the game fluent than what's strictly required to run the game without v-sync.

Also, the speed value obtained in the logs may sometimes be unaccurate. Better press F11 when in game and check the figure shown in the screen.

[TJCOMBO]

The graphic card does not make any difference for MAME performance, this is a fact.

You need to distinguish among reduced speed due to refresh restrictions and genuine underperformance. This is pretty obvious once you have some experience but may confuse at first.

Always look at the logs to see if the calculated modeline has the desired refresh or this is lowered to accomodate your monitor specs.

If you have the right refresh and still can't get a particular game to reach a rock solid 100% speed value then trust me when I say it's a CPU issue. I don't necessarily mean your CPU is not fast enough, it may be some undesired task running in the background or something.

Keep in mind this: by default, GroovyMAME runs all games with v-sync enabled, as this is the reason of its existence. Running a game v-synced means you need more CPU power to run the game fluent than what's strictly required to run the game without v-sync.

Also, the speed value obtained in the logs may sometimes be unaccurate. Better press F11 when in game and check the figure shown in the screen.

Ok.   Thanks for the info!  This should be the last question.

I think I see what you are saying. I understand that raw processing speed is a constant, and particular games in groovymame require larger amounts of processing power than what would otherwise be necessary due to enabling of vsync.  If the monitor specs are more closely matched and all other programs running in the background are shut down, will my CPU be able to handle almost all games with vsync enabled?  What other CPUs are people using to play the MKs, Street Fighters, etc in Groovymame?  98% may be the mean calculated refresh rate - I can live with that, but when it runs, it will do a fast forward and slow motion sequence with the audio following along.  I have also seen it run at 400% when I didn't adjust the monitor_specs correctly and I saw no screen tearing whatsoever, so maybe it is somehow capable of running at that speed.

Is there a how-to guide on adjusting the monitor_specs somewhere?

[krick]

What other CPUs are people using to play the MKs, Street Fighters, etc in Groovymame?

MAME runs much, much better on Intel CPUs due to architectural differences between Intel and AMD, and may also be related to the compiler optimizations.    The performances differences can be shocking, actually. 

Several MAME devs have recommended a middle of the line Core2Duo (around 2.5GHz) as a baseline for running stock MAME on a 64-bit Windows PC.

I don't know how your CPU compares to what they recommend, but keep in mind that traditional benchmarks won't normally show the kind of performance differences that you'd see running MAME.

[TJCOMBO]

What other CPUs are people using to play the MKs, Street Fighters, etc in Groovymame?

MAME runs much, much better on Intel CPUs due to architectural differences between Intel and AMD, and may also be related to the compiler optimizations.    The performances differences can be shocking, actually. 

Several MAME devs have recommended a middle of the line Core2Duo (around 2.5GHz) as a baseline for running stock MAME on a 64-bit Windows PC.

I don't know how your CPU compares to what they recommend, but keep in mind that traditional benchmarks won't normally show the kind of performance differences that you'd see running MAME.

Sorry to go off topic, but yea I have read that too.  I'd be really shocked to find out SF2 and MK2 won't run at full speed with Groovymame on my CPU if done correctly.  It's a black box to me though and anything could be the problem.  All I know is that my XBOX ran SF2 and MK2 back in 2002 with no screen tearing problems etc.  If a XBOX 733 MHz Intel Pentium III can handle all this, then my CPU should have a ton of raw horsepower.

[Calamity]

98% may be the mean calculated refresh rate - I can live with that, but when it runs, it will do a fast forward and slow motion sequence with the audio following along. 

That's really odd. Try using the -video d3d option to see if it makes any difference. Also type dxdiag and in the screen tab check if the directdraw acceleration is enabled.

I have also seen it run at 400% when I didn't adjust the monitor_specs correctly and I saw no screen tearing whatsoever, so maybe it is somehow capable of running at that speed.

I've tested mk2 here, it runs smoothly at 100% speed without any problem, I'm using GM 146u4 64-bit, my CPU is a Core2Duo E4500 2.20 GHz.

[krick]

Sorry to go off topic, but yea I have read that too.  I'd be really shocked to find out SF2 and MK2 won't run at full speed with Groovymame on my CPU if done correctly.  It's a black box to me though and anything could be the problem.  All I know is that my XBOX ran SF2 and MK2 back in 2002 with no screen tearing problems etc.  If a XBOX 733 MHz Intel Pentium III can handle all this, then my CPU should have a ton of raw horsepower.

You're not comparing apples to apples.  What version of MAME were you running on that Pentium III?  From what I can find on the web, the builds of MAME for the original XBox were based on MAME version 0.84 or earlier.  Version 0.84 came out in July 2004.

A lot has changed in MAME in the 8 years since then.  MAME 0.93 has Haze's sound system rewrite, MAME 0.107 has Aaron's video system rewrite, and I seem to remember that there were substantial changes to the emulation of the DCS sound processor used in the later Mortal Kombat games that made it more accurate, but a lot slower.  There were lots of other global changes to the MAME memory system, as well as MAME transitioning from C to C++, which may have had an impact on the speed of some games in MAME.

If you want to see an example where a modern version of MAME is a lot slower, check out Donkey Kong or any of the games that used to use samples for sound but were later updated to simulate the discrete analog sound code.  The discrete sound code is VERY CPU intensive.  Which proves that you can't look at a game and say that just because it's old, it should run fast in MAME.  Sometimes, emulating something accurately is more difficult than it seems on the surface.

[TJCOMBO]

You are correct. Point taken. I did indeed have that version of MAME.  I have very little knowledge of the latest MAME implementation or C++ for that matter.  I was just wondering how gmame ran on builds with other users for the fighting games with a non Intel 3ghz processor when functioning properly.  If the AMD processor isnt taking full advantage of the exe then other users should be aware of that.  There could be a myriad of issues under the surface.  The best I can do clean install from scratch.  I am going to give Calamity 's suggestion a try to begin with.  Appreciate all the assistance.

Sorry to go off topic, but yea I have read that too.  I'd be really shocked to find out SF2 and MK2 won't run at full speed with Groovymame on my CPU if done correctly.  It's a black box to me though and anything could be the problem.  All I know is that my XBOX ran SF2 and MK2 back in 2002 with no screen tearing problems etc.  If a XBOX 733 MHz Intel Pentium III can handle all this, then my CPU should have a ton of raw horsepower.

You're not comparing apples to apples.  What version of MAME were you running on that Pentium III?  From what I can find on the web, the builds of MAME for the original XBox were based on MAME version 0.84 or earlier.  Version 0.84 came out in July 2004.

A lot has changed in MAME in the 8 years since then.  MAME 0.93 has Haze's sound system rewrite, MAME 0.107 has Aaron's video system rewrite, and I seem to remember that there were substantial changes to the emulation of the DCS sound processor used in the later Mortal Kombat games that made it more accurate, but a lot slower.  There were lots of other global changes to the MAME memory system, as well as MAME transitioning from C to C++, which may have had an impact on the speed of some games in MAME.

If you want to see an example where a modern version of MAME is a lot slower, check out Donkey Kong or any of the games that used to use samples for sound but were later updated to simulate the discrete analog sound code.  The discrete sound code is VERY CPU intensive.  Which proves tha(t you can't look at a game and say that just because it's old, it should run fast in MAME.  Sometimes, emulating something accurately is more difficult than it seems on the surface.

[TJCOMBO]

Aww yea. Enabling direct d3d did the trick for me. Let that be a note to other users.  I dont know how it work but I am very pleased.  UMK3 and both Killer instincts run at full speed with a .3% tolerance of error on my runs.  Just uploaded a clip of proof on youtube. Username sweetdude3000.  You can see that the image is letterboxed which tweaking the monitor specs and remote control on thr monitor should be able to solve.  Thank you both Calamity and Krick for your tenacity and lucid explanations.  Both of you were a big help here.  Ill do what I can to support this implementation.

[krick]

Good to hear that d3d did the trick.   I noticed that some games run a little better under d3d on my system, I really don't know why.

In my case, if I use my ATI Radeon HD 4xxx card with "magic resolutions", I need to run d3d in order to get a picture.  With my (much older) Radeon X600 XT, I can run magic resolutions in both ddraw and d3d.

[TJCOMBO]

Yea its all a black box to me so I won't begin to speculate.  I did have two questions:
What are software are people using to configure screen geometry?  I hate having to go in there and adjust things on the control board.  I don't have a frame of reference to orient it.

How do you edit the monitor specs?  The ones listed don't quite fit, as the screens don't fill my makvision.  The ones listed aren't exactly the correct ones.

[Calamity]

Good to hear that d3d worked. It seems like a buggy v-sync support for the ddraw side, either from the card or the drivers. I shouldn't have been so categoric about the CPU, there's always room for unexpected stuff

My advice is to use Arcade_OSD and its geometry menus to find your monitor timings. Basically you play with the centering and border (porch) size until you get a picture that fits. Then you use the timings obtained to build your monitor_specs line, it's just a matter of copying the values.

This only works for horizontal geometry. You won't be able to adjust vertical size with modelines (software), but Arcade_OSD can help you to find your optimal vertical values so the capacity of your monitor is not "wasted" in unnecesary blanking lines.

Once you have the values I can help you build the monitor_specs line.

PD: Sorry, I edited your post by mistake.

[TJCOMBO]

I adjust the pots on the remote control.  Looks like the image bends in the upper right hand corner... could be a monitor issue. So it appears that the games I will be playing are in CGA so it makes sense to edit the 640x480 interlace .  I did that and the screen fills correctly all the way when playing MK2.  Those specs are V 59.96 and H 15.919.  The porch did nothing when i adjusted it.

I assume Ill have to use -tripplebuffer for the vertical games because those run at 80%.  And Robot ron 2084 for instance is not displayed correct at all.  Maybe adjust them individually in ArcadeOSD? 

Brb. Playing Rolling Thunder.