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Stiffer spring for Spitfire joystick?

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armi0024:

I will try to keep this civil as I'm trying to help answer a question about joysticks.  And this is an issue that our company is very invested in and spends a great deal of time working with several stick builders and manufacturers on.  This is not a personal debate, it should be informative, and statements like this:

--- Quote from: RandyT on August 03, 2012, 12:48:36 am ---"Your use of the word "improperly" when talking about the sticks action, infers that your preference is superior to the desires of others."
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do not add to the discussion and are probably best left out of these dialogues.  I know most people would prefer a professional, even if spirited discussion that does not digress to this level.  I personally get enough of people dissecting arguments to make talking points out of insiginificant statements from watching the news and having to deal with the upcoming elections.  I would appreciate if we could keep this on topic. 

Now, onto the juicy part.

We have been doing a lot of work with some of the stick builders at Shoryuken on this issue.
Joystick selection is mostly about feel, and there are a ton of mods people try to get that feel.
To make things easier I am going to use brand names, instead of the names assigned to the Chinese knock off joysticks by vendors. For the sake of this discussion, backed up by the detailed description above, Roundhouses are similar to JLW joysticks, Spitfire/fight stick 1 are simulate to JLF joysticks, and Zippyy's are similar to LS-32 joysticks. 

I personally do not believe the Chinese manufacturers spend a great deal of time optimizing (or tuning) a design, I believe they spend more time trying to emulate an existing product, however this is my opinion and should not be taken as fact.

Ok, back, sorry I'm in Chicago... if anyone wants to catch up at Galloping ghost tomorrow :)

So my understanding of the history.  Sanwa JLW's and Seimitsu LS-32's were the fight sticks of choice until Sanwa came out with the JLF and it now dominates the market in fight sticks. 

In the fighting community the JLF is known as a lighter, precise, and nimble stick.  While it is by far the most popular and used by the majority of stick makers in their high end sticks, it is also the most common to be modded. 

Most of the buzz I hear from the SHMUPS community is that they like the stiffer LS-32 and some of the other Seimitsu Sticks like the LS-40 or LS-55's.  I know this is not what was said in another post but everything I have seen is that the JLF is not preferred here.  In fact, some of the most ingenious mods to increase sensitivity and increase stiffness have come from hard core SHMUPS players.  Based on my feel of the Seimitsu sticks we carry and the JLW, I would think that the SHMUPS community would be more inclined towards a JLW.

Before I go onto mods, my personal bias for an all around stick is the JLW.  I think it has the best of all worlds. 4/8 way adjustment combined with the other feel and stick throw are my favorite.  I think it feels good on classics and handles the fighters well.  This stick is available in a few different places with some modifications.  We offer the JLW, Ultimarc has their J-stick(with is a JLW), and GGG has the Omni 2(I am not sure if this is an original, or a nice imitation, but Randy added some springs and stand offs to make the restrictor rotate easily)

Now onto JLF mods, I want to touch on the possibilities, hard to capture because they are almost endless:
There are dozens of youtube videos, threads and products for modding the JLF.  Contrary to previous statements made about actuation distance this is something that can be tweaked in several different ways.  This icludes dead zone modifications. 
Start with just the micros, while the distance to contact the micro remains pretty constant regardless of who's microswitch you use, the depth of actuation is variable.  Omrons and Cherry micros tend to actuate quickly after contact, while Smooth Joy/Zippy microswtiches tend to have more throw after contact with the plunger.  Swapping the stock JLF micros out for Cherry switches is a very popular mod, and could be done on the fight sticks.  Modding micros is not benign to game play.  While this is less of an issue with primary directions, it can reduce sensitivity in the corners. 
There are also modified actuators on the market, that add 1-2 mm to the diameter of the actuator contacting the micro, thus decreasing the throw.  We are actually working on a series of these in different sizes to "dial in" peoples offset.
If you don't like micros you can go with the SparkCE or way for project Magento.  These devices eliminate the need for micros and have adjustable sensitivity based on optics or magnets. 
You want to get down and dirty? Some fighters will tweak their joystick by adding small shims to the inside of the microswitches to decrease the distance the plunger needs to be pressed befrore actuating, or you can go with a reed switch micro like the Omron reeds used in the silent JLF's (However these will generally run about 6 per microswitch).  There is also a well known Akishop mod showing how to tune your stick with electrical tape around the actuator.  This does even include the three different restrictors 4/8, ocotagon, and circle that you can do, or the line up of springs.
I'm not suggesting these are the best options for everyone, and personally I don't go for the electrical tape mod, but there is an entire world out there of ways to make these sticks feel "better". 

How does this help you decide? It doesn't, but if give you your options.  I look at this like shoes.  This is a personal fit thing, you are likely not going to get the perfect fit the first time.  Also the pair you friend thinks are the best in the world, might not fit you perfectly. 
If you ask me, I would say on a mame cabinet, with a bazillion games, go with teh JLW or LS-32, which are in my mind the best all around sticks.  If you are building a mame to play Street Fighter, I would say a JLF is for you, don't like the center play, go with a 3lb spring.  What a stick the plays MS. Pac like a champ... Get the JLW bat top, and a Wico red 10mm threaded ball top, smooth as silk.  But remember, my shoes may not fit you, and hell I have plantar fasciitis right now, so I may not know what I'm talking about at all :) 
My suggestion is, if you want to tweak joysticks, check out the Shoryuken forums, ask questions, and play,mod,play,mod....  Until you find what you want and make the process something fun.

kowal:

3 months ago i buy this stick (the same like spitfire) for some test. I dont wont destroy original JLF base.
I pay for this stick 1,79$ world shipping 5,99$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-8-Way-Joystick-Fighting-Stick-Repair-Parts-for-Arcade-Gaming-/130724206953?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6fc51969

and this stick i terrible too many bug on construction
bad centring position, stick is bend on one direction,  joystick on this bug is not not playable,
is the fault pivot and shaft, hole on pivot is too large and shaft is too tiny.
ABS washer for spring It also twists the joystick,  modeled all parts on this stick is bad.
clips on base are too stiff, if you need change restrictor is regular fighting
engagement tragical, switches are tragical all is tragical on this stick
rubish!
foucs attack sell some parts for JLF and next test is on oryginal JLF base I only lose 8$

some china knockoff is still pleyable like copy super joystick/competition but i never seen good JLF clone (only ASCII)


if someone need cheap sanwa parts this guy is OK
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sanwa-Joystick-JLF-TP-8YT-with-6-Buttons-OBSF-30-arcade-jamma-game-kit-Gray-/270932112676?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f14cff524


RandyT:

While I disagree with Kowal's final assessment, which I tend to do more often than not, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Virtually all joysticks, with some glaring exceptions, are fully functional and do the job they were intended to do just fine.  It's only when the construction or design is so poor as to physically interfere with the player and/or not function accurately, that they should be universally avoided.  There is no such thing as a "perfect joystick" simply because there are too many specialized applications, and too many personal preferences.  What works great for one player on a specific game, may not do the same for a different player or a different game.

Asessments and opinions are generally based on user experience (what one is accustomed to), and personal bias (what one prefers).  Someone who has used a WICO leaf joystick extensively and is interested in mostly classic titles, is likely to find issue with all other types, while someone who has extensively used Competition joysticks with a focus on MK or SF, would probably not be as enamored by the WICO.  It's the opinions and feedback from the customer which rules at the end of the day.  The Spitfire is a popular choice, and I have had a number of positive comments from those who have purchased it.  The nice thing about these sticks is that they are solidly constructed and can be tuned to a users's preference by doing little more than swapping some switches, if necessary, to get the desired performance.  Whether one replaces the actuator with one of a larger diameter, or uses switches with taller nubs (they are not all the same), the result is virtually the same.  The difference is that the former may not be as simple to find, or based on other design aspects of the base, may not actually be achievable.

Further, the spring can be taken out and given a small stretch to increase the centering tension, without needing to replace it.  It's far simpler to increase than to decrease tension using this method, so being that it is softer gives it a good starting point for tuning. 

Personally,  I  consider the statement questioning as to whether the Chinese manufacturers put much thought into the design of their products as something which isn't clearly thought out in itself.  They have design criterion which may or may not coincide with that of a particular individual, who is probably not privy to the reasoning, but that is not an indication that none exists.  Like anywhere in the world, there are broad differences between companies in the goals, manufacturing capabilities and talent pool behind their respective offerings.


Nephasth:


--- Quote from: RandyT on July 27, 2012, 04:05:40 pm ---A word of caution;

Increasing spring tension on this type of design has the net effect of pulling the hemispherical part more tightly into the socket, which increases friction between the two parts.  Too much tension can cause pre-mature wear, centering issues, etc.  Good lubrication is essential, but may be short lived, as the stronger tension will have the effect of pulling the hemispherical part through the lubrication, and displacing it.

Just wanted to make sure you were aware that increasing spring tension on these types of sticks is not without some consequence.

RandyT

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--- Quote from: RandyT on August 04, 2012, 12:19:13 pm ---Further, the spring can be taken out and given a small stretch to increase the centering tension, without needing to replace it.  It's far simpler to increase than to decrease tension using this method, so being that it is softer gives it a good starting point for tuning. 

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:dizzy:

RandyT:


--- Quote from: Nephasth on August 04, 2012, 12:48:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: RandyT on July 27, 2012, 04:05:40 pm ---A word of caution;

Increasing spring tension on this type of design has the net effect of pulling the hemispherical part more tightly into the socket, which increases friction between the two parts.  Too much tension can cause pre-mature wear, centering issues, etc.  Good lubrication is essential, but may be short lived, as the stronger tension will have the effect of pulling the hemispherical part through the lubrication, and displacing it.

Just wanted to make sure you were aware that increasing spring tension on these types of sticks is not without some consequence.

RandyT

--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: RandyT on August 04, 2012, 12:19:13 pm ---Further, the spring can be taken out and given a small stretch to increase the centering tension, without needing to replace it.  It's far simpler to increase than to decrease tension using this method, so being that it is softer gives it a good starting point for tuning. 

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:dizzy:

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These are small adjustments.  You won't be adding the pounds of force by doing this which could create problems.  Thus, the inclusion of the words "too much" in my statement above.

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