Newbie TV walkthrough, please!

[notbillcosby]

I've been reading this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120798.0

It's become very apparent that I need a few things spelled out for me. I haven't found a really good cut and dry tutorial for how to get MAME graphics to look correct on a consumer television. I've gathered some stuff, but I just need verification on some things! If there's a thread or tutorial that I overlooked, by all means, point me there and I'll stop asking stupid questions.

Just to start off- I have a gutted cabinet, a rack mount server that will be the MAME brains, one open PCI slot for whatever video card I will need to do this properly, and a 20" TV with RCA composite inputs that I hope to replace with something a bit larger (but not by much... my cab is 23" wide on the inside). I have no intention of playing console games on here, unless I'm using emulators to do that too... but that's a pretty low priority for me.

I've gathered that I need to get a video card that's compatible with Soft15khz, so that my videocard is outputting a resolution that will look good on my TV and display games in the resolution they were intended to be in. Correct?

I'll also need some way to convert my VGA output to RCA composite. It sounds like the goal is to get things at 240p, which my old TV would be able to display via the composite input. I'm not sure if there's special steps to get this to work, or if i just need a box that has a VGA-in and a Composite-out and the right resolution being pushed through it.

Is this all there is to it?

[rCadeGaming]

*****
MAJOR EDIT - IMPORTANT - READ THIS FIRST:

I wanted to post some updates on the first page so anyone reading this for the first time would see it first.

A general disclaimer for this whole thing is that while this thread specifically refers to using a 15kHz CRT TV for native resolutions in MAME, EVERYTHING HERE applies perfectly to doing the exact same thing with a 15kHz (CGA) arcade monitor.  The only difference is that an arcade monitor will not need an RGB to component transcoder, as it can accept the computer's VGA signal directly (the same goes for a TV with an RGB SCART input).  It may need something to convert H and V sync to composite sync, but this isn't difficult.

In fact, this applies to 25kHz (EGA) and 31kHz (VGA) arcade monitors as well, but you'll just be working with some different resolutions (or all of them in the case of a tri-sync).

The other update is about GroovyMAME and CRT_Emudriver. 

GroovyMAME is a MAME build that has been around for a while now.  In addition to some other great features, it is designed to automate some of the setup of native resolutions for CRT's that's discussed in this thread.  The automation is not necessarily always perfect, so it's still good to be able to correct things yourself.

Reading through this thread and gaining and understanding of how your TV/monitor works, and how set things up yourself, is still highly recommended.

A problem with GroovyMAME is that it wasn't possible to get around the automated monitor settings, and use your own settings, but this is supposed to change for the next release.  I'll be switching be GroovyMAME at this time, and I would highly recommend everyone reading this to do the same.  UPDATE:  This is out now.  I've made the switch, and its a big improvement over other MAME builds.

Here's an interesting conversation I had with Calamity, the creator of GroovyMAME, about this:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,128879.msg1318540.html#msg1318540

CRT_Emudriver is a newer alternative to Soft15kHz.  There is a lot of talk about Soft15kHz in this thread, but I would highly recommended CRT_Emudriver now.  All of the video concepts discussed (resolutions, timing values, etc.) still apply though.

Soft15kHz is really not the best option anymore. 

First of all, it's silly to use a real CRT and not use GroovyMAME, and that works hand in hand with CRT_Emudriver.  GM can generate resolutions on the fly to keep everything native res (and native refresh, very important), saving you a lot of work; and it has a lot of other important features for native res even if you don't use the auto-generation. 

Even if not using GM, tweaking your resolutions in Soft15kHz requires editing the text modelines by hand (super tedious), or using Powerstrip.  Powerstrip was not really designed for this application, it's very cumbersome, and does not even fit on the screen in lower resolutions.  CRT_Emudriver includes ArcadeOSD, which was purposely designed for this, is just as powerful if not more so, more flexible, and much easier to use.

Making the change only takes a couple of minutes once you have the right graphics card (which can be dirt cheap).  I started with Soft15kHz, and resisted making the change because I had some GeForce cards on hand (only compatible with Soft15kHz).  When I finally switched over to CRT_Emudriver, I was really kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

*****




I'll include some of your questions from your PM as well.

Just to start off- I have a gutted cabinet, a rack mount server that will be the MAME brains

What operating system?  I've had great success with Soft15kHz and Powerstrip in XP64.  I haven't tested other OS's but my understanding is that 32-bit XP should work just as well, but any Windows 7 will not work.  Not sure about other pre-XP Windows.  EDIT: This not out yet, but Calamity is currently working on full support for GroovyMAME and CRT_Emudriver in Windows 7

one open PCI slot for whatever video card I will need to do this properly

Here's the list for Soft15kHz compatible cards.  Search through it and buy whichever PCI card is listed as fully functional and is readily available:

http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten

(the inside of my cabinet measures 23 inches wide... so whatever I can cram in there. I don't think they made the Sony you're using in anything smaller than a 27").

They did.  Mine is a KV-27FS120.  There is a KV-20FS series, which includes the KV-20FS100, KV-20FS120 and maybe others, which will be the same thing but smaller.  Same thing with the KV-24FS series.  You might be able to fit a 24" into your cab easily, probably not a 27" even after taking it out of its case.

All the models above are strictly 15kHz, meaning they can display anything around 240p or 480i.  This is what you need.  They also have component inputs, which will be easier to get the computer working with, and allow a better picture.

Keep in mind that they are flat tubes with a fairly sharp picture, which I recommend, but you'll have to decide if it's your preference.

From my thread you linked to:

The one pictured is relatively new.  It's from about the last line of 15kHz CRT TV's that Sony made, so it has a flat tube and a digital chassis.  It has a relatively fine dot pitch, so it produces a fairly sharp image (for TV's, nothing like a computer monitor) and pretty distinct scan lines, which I prefer.  However, since it's relatively sharp, motion feathering is quite apparent with 480i sources.

On the other hand, the fuzzier image produced by an older TV with a coarser dot pitch (like one with a curved tube and only composite inputs) may have no apparent scan lines, but the fuzziness will also hide motion feathering.

Technically a curved tube is more accurate to the arcade, and some people will prefer a fuzzier picture with less or no scanlines.  I don't know why anyone would prefer motion feathering, so older TV's may actually be better depending on your preferences.

These TV's are so cheap and readily available you should just pick one up and set it side to side with your older TV to compare and come to a decision.

Get on Craigslist and search those models.  If you don't find anything with the exact model number listed, skim all the TV listings, filtered to view only ones with pictures.  Open the ones that look right, and send an email asking the model number.  I've picked up many TV's for testing this way.  Don't pay over $50.  Some people will give nice sets away free.

There is also a KV-20FV and KV-24FV series.  Looks like they're also 15kHz with component inputs, but I'm not familiar with them.  You'd have to research, or better test, for yourself.

I'd prefer to use a TV so I can easily take it back out when I go to move this beast out of my basement when I eventually move out

Sounds like you mean to leave the TV in it's plastic case.  I'd recommend taking it out of the case (remember to discharge the tube), especially if you're trying fit a 24" in.  If build a sturdy frame for it, it shouldn't be a problem to take it back out and put it back in.

not to mention I'm pretty sure it'd be cheaper to buy an "outdated" TV in a size that would work than buying an arcade monitor.

Definitely, you can get like new TV's for dirt cheap, whereas even used arcade monitors can be very expensive.

I have no intention of playing console games on here, unless I'm using emulators to do that too... but that's a pretty low priority for me.

Please reconsider:

There's tons of great console ports of games that aren't yet full speed or even working at all in MAME.  Also, there are tons of console exclusive games that are better suited for a cabinet than a controller.  Finally, there are some MAME games with very high input lag that are better played on a console port.

Anyhow, if you use MC Cthulhu boards for your controls and a TV for the monitor, you'll have all the provisions in place to easily plug most consoles right in if you change your mind later.

I've gathered that I need to get a video card that's compatible with Soft15khz, so that my videocard is outputting a resolution that will look good on my TV and display games in the resolution they were intended to be in. Correct?
...
It sounds like the goal is to get things at 240p

The games look much much better when ran in native resolution, meaning the resolution they were originally designed to run in, which they actually did run in in the arcade.  These 2d graphics were drawn in a precise number of pixels, and the art looks best when each pixel is reproduced correctly.  This is all lost when there is any stretching to a higher resolution.  You need to get an appreciation of it in person to see how good native resolution looks on a proper CRT, with scan-lines and an appropriate dot pitch blur to smooth things out and look natural.

The native resolution of the games we're talking about is usually not exactly 240p, but something close.  For example, NEO GEO actually ran at 320x224p, and CPS-2 (Street Fighter II) actually ran at 392x224p.

There're actually tons of resolutions around 240p that you'll need to work with, but this is handled in software.  Basically, Soft15kHz just enables your graphics card to output low resolutions and gives you a few rough presets.  Powerstrip allows you to fine tune your resolutions and add custom ones.

I'll get into the software side later, it's late. 

For now you need to get your hardware together, a TV, a graphics card, and a transcoder.

I'll also need some way to convert my VGA output to RCA composite... I'm not sure if there's special steps to get this to work, or if i just need a box that has a VGA-in and a Composite-out and the right resolution being pushed through it.

Hopefully you'll be working with component, not composite, but the TV won't accept VGA so yes you'll need some kind of box.  That is unless you get a card that's compatible with Soft15kHz AND has a fully customizable component output, but that sounds pretty rare.

Anyhow, you'll be working with a variety of resolutions around 240p, not just 240p itself, so the final resolution that reaches the TV must be controllable from the PC.  This means you need a box that leaves resolution completely alone.  This is called a transcoder.  A transcoder only translates colorspace and/or sync.  Whatever resolution you feed into it is what comes out the other side.

If you use component, the answer is simple.  Use a Crescendo Systems TC1600 VGA to Component transcoder.  This is what I have and it's outstanding.  For VGA cards it's plug and play, and it will give you RGB from your classic systems with a little custom cabling.

If you must use composite, you'll need to do some research.  The are a lot of cheap VGA to composite "converters" available, but they upscale everything to 480i.  To get a true "VGA to composite transcoder" you'll probably have to pick up a quality used professional rack mount NTSC encoder.

I plan on making the monitor horizontal, and getting one big enough that vertical games will still be a reasonable size

You can't display vertical games in native resolution on a 15kHz TV or monitor unless it's oriented vertically.  This is because the game is already using about all the resolution the display is capable of in progressive, around 320x240 pixels.  To rotate the screen, maintain the full resolution of the game, AND add black bars on the sides requires more resolution that isn't available in progressive.  To get this extra resolution, you'll have to run these rotated games upscaled in 640x480 interlaced (or something close to that, depending on the game).  It's not optimal, but it's a necessary solution to play both types of games in the same cabinet.  This is why I'm building two cabs, one horizontal and one vertical.

[notbillcosby]

Thanks so much for the awesomely detailed response! I'm gonna respond without quotes, too much of a pain on the iPod.

I'm using XP32. I think I might actually have a 64 bit processor, but no copy of XP64. Maybe it doesn't matter that much.

I'm excited to hunt down one of those TVs. I think I'd REALLY like a curved screen, but am willing to sacrifice that detail if it means a nice picture. Are there curved screen TVs that do 15khz?

I'm a little scared to discharge the tube in a TV, and not sure what I'm getting into with making a frame. Will all TVs have some sort of tabs or frame around the screen for mounting? It also seems like it'd be a lot easier to safely transport an enclosed TV in the future. If I could fit a 24" in the case in my cab, that'd be awesome! But I'm not getting my hopes up

Good to know about the MC Cthulu being able to convert to work with other systems. While it isn't a priority right now, I like knowing that I'd have the option in the future, since I'll have a tv in there anyway.

That stinks that only the horizontal games will look right. Fortunately, it's really only the way older games that are vertical so maybe a little lower image quality won't seem awful on those, especially if I have a nice clear looking tv. Agh... I do play an awful lot of Ms Pac Man though... Anyway, will MAME automatically take care the resolution switch? I guess I don't know why it wouldn't.

[notbillcosby]

Agh! Not even the smallest 20" Sony will fit in my cabinet while still in its case! Uh oh, I see more work in my future...

[notbillcosby]

Are there curved screen TVs that do 15khz?

I feel like maybe that was a stupid question. I should rephrase that: How will I know if a TV can display 15khz? If I'm insisting on keeping the tv in its own plastic housing, there's a number of sets that will fit and have a curved screen, but I have no idea how to tell if it's compatible. Is that something that would be obviously listed in the manual?

[rCadeGaming]

I'm using XP32. I think I might actually have a 64 bit processor, but no copy of XP64. Maybe it doesn't matter that much.

How fast is your pc?  I don't think MAME will utilitze multiple processors unless you get a special version, but 64 bit windows is helpful in that it will allow background processes to run on one processor, leaving another free for MAME.

There's nothing difficult about XP 64 beyond getting a copy.  Let's just say that there are some people in the world who have copies they didn't pay for, and they work great.  That's all I'll say about that, don't ask me about it.

If you do have a dual core or more, there's no reason not to take advantage of it.

I'm excited to hunt down one of those TVs. I think I'd REALLY like a curved screen, but am willing to sacrifice that detail if it means a nice picture.

Just get one of those and compare, then make your decision.  Be sure you're comparing with an actual 15kHz progressive signal.  A Super Nintendo would be a simple test source if you've got one.  Composite will be fine for comparison, since both TV's will accept it.  On the Sony's we're talking about RGB would be very slightly sharper and cleaner with better color, but the difference between your current TV will still be very clear.

What exactly is your current TV?  Make, model number, and manufacture date will be listed on the back.

I'm a little scared to discharge the tube in a TV, and not sure what I'm getting into with making a frame. Will all TVs have some sort of tabs or frame around the screen for mounting? It also seems like it'd be a lot easier to safely transport an enclosed TV in the future. If I could fit a 24" in the case in my cab, that'd be awesome! But I'm not getting my hopes up

Discharging isn't hard.  You'll be fine if you follow the instructions here.

The frame depends on how elaborate you want to make it.  It really doesn't need to be complicated, just depends how modular you want to make it for removal purposes.  Yes, there will likely be useful mounting points on a metal bracket/frame.  It's also possible to hack up the plastic case and reuse parts of it.

With the Sony's I mentioned, a lot of their width is due to having speakers on both sides of the screen.  After taking off the case and tossing the speakers I think you should be able to get a 24" into a 23" space.  My 27" is over 30" wide in the case, but I think the actual tube is under 24".  Another benefit of flat tubes is that fitting a bezel is much simpler.  Also, they'll have a digital chassis with a service menu for adjusting geometry/brightness/contrast/color levels, etc.

You should check if depth is a concern.

Good to know about the MC Cthulu being able to convert to work with other systems. While it isn't a priority right now, I like knowing that I'd have the option in the future, since I'll have a tv in there anyway.

Yup.  You'll need one MC Cthulhu per player, but it's lag free and works great with Windows/MAME.  My thinking with my project is to build the most capable cabs possible now, even including features I don't need yet, so I have to build another one down the road.

Anyway, will MAME automatically take care the resolution switch? I guess I don't know why it wouldn't.

MAME lists the resolution of each game.  Once you know the resolution the game runs in, you need to set up a suitable resolution for that game in Powerstrip; this includes tweaking it so the geometry looks good on the TV.  Then you need to tell MAME to use that specific resolution for that game. 

If you leave it up to MAME to auto switch, it doesn't just display the native resolution.  It has to try and pick the closest resolution available in your graphics driver, and it might not make the best choice.  The resolutions available in your graphics drivers will be the graphics card's defaults, plus the default resolutions added by Soft15kHz, plus the custom resolutions you've added in Powerstrip.  It's up to you to tweak the defaults resolutions correctly and add custom ones where needed.

There's also the issue of setting up the refresh rate correctly.

Once you get your hardware together I can run through this step by step for an example game, from setting up Soft15kHz and Powerstrip to setting up MAME for a particular game.

Note that most games run on hardware that's shared with a lot of other games.  For example, Street Fighter II runs on CPS-2 hardware, so once you've tweaked up Street Fighter II just right, you can tell MAME to use those setting for all CPS-2 games, as well as CPS-3 since it uses the same resolution.  I think CPS-1 as well, but I forget.

Same thing with NEO GEO, once you've set up one NEO GEO game, you're done tweaking for all of them, etc.  There's not too many games you'll be concerned with that ran on totally unique hardware.

Are there curved screen TVs that do 15khz?

I feel like maybe that was a stupid question. I should rephrase that: How will I know if a TV can display 15khz? If I'm insisting on keeping the tv in its own plastic housing, there's a number of sets that will fit and have a curved screen, but I have no idea how to tell if it's compatible. Is that something that would be obviously listed in the manual?

You would have a very hard time finding a curved TV that is NOT strictly 15kHz.  There might be some in existence, but I've never seen one.  It's when you get into flat tubes that you have to worry about the TV scaling 240p to 480p instead of displaying it correctly.  The Sony's I mentioned won't have this problem.

It may or may not be listed in the specifications in the manual.  If it is, it may be explained in different terminology.

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I think I should make some things clear about video.  Sorry to everyone here that's already familiar with all this.

Scan Rate

A CRT draws each pixel one at a time in order.  It starts at the top left corner of the screen and draws individual pixels from left to right, drawing a line.  Once it reaches the end of a line on the right side, it jumps back to the left side and down a little bit to begin the next line.  It keeps drawing lines like this until it reaches the end of the last line at the bottom right corner, completing a full picture, or one frame.  Then it jumps back to the top right to start the next frame.

15kHz refers to the horizontal scan rate, which is the physical speed at which the display can draw from left to right.  In order to draw 240 progressive lines at 60 frames per second, the display must draw from left to right at a speed of around 15,750Hz, or about 15kHz.  To draw 350 progressive lines, the display must draw at about 24kHz; and to draw 480 progressive lines, the display must draw at about 31kHz.

240p = 15kHz progressive = CGA resolution
350p = 24kHz progressive = EGA resolution
480p = 31kHz progressive = VGA resolution

Note that despite it's name a "VGA cable" doesn't have to carry 480p, it can carry whatever resolution you want.

Vertical scan rate (also called refresh rate or refresh speed) refers to how fast a display can draw from top to bottom.  The standard (at least in NTSC territories) is 60Hz, regardless of what the horizontal scan rate is, which results in 60 frames per second.

So far I've only been discussing progressive scan.  Progressive scan means that the display draws every line order, completes a full frame, and then draws the next frame. 

In interlaced video, the display draws only the odd lines, completing one "field," then draws only the even lines in the next field, and so on.  Vertical scan rate remains at 60Hz, so the display still draws from top to bottom at 60 times per second, but each time it does so it only draws half of the lines.  Since the display only has to draw half of the total number of lines per field, it can draw twice as many total lines in interlaced video as it can in progressive at the same horizontal scan rate.

In 240p the display must draw from left to right at 15kHz, but it can draw 480i at 15kHz as well.  The display is still only drawing 240 lines 60 times per second, whether it's 240p or 480i.

Allowing twice as much resolution without increasing horizontal scan rate is a neat trick, but interlaced video isn't without it's problems.  Each frame is actually made of two visible fields, so there's technically now only 30 full frames per second.  Since the two fields that make up each frame are actually drawn at slightly different times, if something is moving it will show up in two slightly different places.  If the display is sharp enough you can visibly see this.




Scanlines

I think you're already aware that what us gamers call "scanlines" are the black lines in between each line of resolution in low resolution graphics.  The reason for these are visible is that a CRT TV will draw lines at the same width, regardless of what resolution it's displaying.  That's why a TV with strong scan lines at 240p may have little or none visible at 480i. 

If a CRT TV's picture is fairly sharp, it is drawing fairly thin lines.  The lines of 240p are fairly spread out, so there's a little black space in between where nothing is drawn.  However, when 480i displayed, twice is many lines are visible in the same space, so there may not be any room left in between them.


Scaling

Scaling means converting an image from one resolution to another.  In the current context it usually refers to scaling a lower resolution to a higher one, like something around 240p to 480i or 480p. 

The first problem with this kind of scaling is that whatever scanlines would have been visible will be greatly diminished or lost entirely.

When scaling 320x240 to 640x480, everything translates evenly.  Each original pixel will translate as a block of 4 pixels after scaling.  However, most classic games use something close to 240p but not quite.  This is the second problem.  392x224 does not translate very smoothly to 640x480.

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On the curved TV you have now, it may be difficult to tell the difference between proper native resolutions around 240p and things scaled to 480i.  Depending on how sharp it is, you may or may not be able to see scanlines or make out individual pixels clearly in 240p.

On the TV's I recommended, it will be clear as day.  In anything around 240p, scanlines will be prominent, and individual pixels will be fairly clear.  If this is scaled to 480i, that will be lost.

[notbillcosby]

Thanks for the incredibly patient reply. I had the basics on the ideas of resolution and interlaced vs progressive, but you absolutely cleared up some specifics. Thanks for taking the time! Onto specifics:

My PC is a 1U server that I happened to get for free last summer, and never had any idea what I was going to use it for until my recent arcade obsession started. I was pleased to find out it has 4gb of ram and 2 dual core (i think) Xeon 2.0ghz processors. I'm pretty sure they're 64-bit, I didn't realize that XP32 didn't take advantage of dual processors... I'll see what I can do.

You bring up my "current TV"... I hardly want to count what I have as a "current" TV. It's way too small. I won't use it in my cabinet. Plus, it sounds like it's going to be easier and smarter to get the signal into a TV with component inputs. A curved screen CRT with component ins would be awesome, but the lure of adjusting geometry via onscreen menus is pretty tempting, and I hadn't thought about the effect it would have on making a bezel.

I did see someone's blog, where they used a hack saw to take the speakers off the side of their TV set to fit it into a cabinet. It actually worked really well and would make transporting the monitor in the future a whole lot easier than having it removed from the case entirely. Ironically, the guy with the blog wound up taking it out of the case and mounting the tube in the cab anyway, to make it more "solid." Dang it. I'm still inclined to try it in the case first, maybe with its ears lopped off. I don't have any of those Sonys showing up in my local Craigslist. I wish there was an easy way to know if other flat tubes of the era would scale to 480p or if they'd work. I always liked Samsung CRTs.

I think setting up all the custom resolutions for individual games is going to be my least favorite part of this arcade build. Maybe I'll just leave a wireless mouse on top of the cab so i can screw with stuff in windows when I need to. I'll deal with that when I get there.

[rCadeGaming]

I agree with you wanting to get rid your current TV.  Just make sure to test it side by side with your new one for comparison.  Do you have a Super Nintendo?

the lure of adjusting geometry via onscreen menus is pretty tempting

Keep in mind that getting into it requires turning the tv off and putting a special command on the remote to turn it on in service mode (with Sony's at least, other manufacturers, including Samsung, require you to connect a jumper on the chassis).  It allows some pretty powerful adjustments, but it's very clumsy.  You want to get it to a good setting and leave it, it's not something you tweak often like the OSD menu on a PC monitor.

I did see someone's blog, where they used a hack saw to take the speakers off the side of their TV set to fit it into a cabinet. It actually worked really well and would make transporting the monitor in the future a whole lot easier than having it removed from the case entirely. Ironically, the guy with the blog wound up taking it out of the case and mounting the tube in the cab anyway, to make it more "solid." Dang it. I'm still inclined to try it in the case first, maybe with its ears lopped off.

The end result of this might be optimal for you, but you need to take the tube chassis out while modifying the case, then put it back in.  Cutting blind you run a good risk of damaging something inside, or worse electrocution.

I don't have any of those Sonys showing up in my local Craigslist.

Are just trying to search those model numbers or are you looking over everything.  If anyone has any listing that even just says 24" Sony TV for sale, send an email that says "Very interested!  What's the model number (you can find it on the back)?"

You can try eBay as well, but it will probably cost you more.  Unfortunately the 24" Sony's are probably rarer than the 20" and 27"s.

I wish there was an easy way to know if other flat tubes of the era would scale to 480p or if they'd work.

Buy and test.  I went through over a dozen TV's figuring out what I liked best, though a lot were free.

I always liked Samsung CRTs.

I had a 27" that was equivalent to my Sony.  It was pretty similar, but somehow looked a little too "digital" for me, it lacked the "warmth" of the Sony or something, it didn't look as natural, I can't describe it.  They're also a major ---smurfette--- to get in the service menu.

EDIT: Actually it might have been a Phillips I had.  I can't remember, sorry.

[notbillcosby]

I agree with you wanting to get rid your current TV.  Just make sure to test it side by side with your new one for comparison.  Do you have a Super Nintendo?

Two! Is there a reason i need to do this, other than to fully appreciate how good this Sony looks?

The end result of this might be optimal for you, but you need to take the tube chassis out while modifying the case, then put it back in.  Cutting blind you run a good risk of damaging something inside, or worse electrocution.

Of course! I wouldn't think of doing it without opening it up. The guy on the blog managed to take the back off the TV, remove the speakers, measure and cut the wings off the front and back half of the case, then screw it back together all without removing the tube. I'd probably still want to discharge it first to avoid things like death.

I had a 27" that was equivalent to my Sony.  It was pretty similar, but somehow looked a little too "digital" for me, it lacked the "warmth" of the Sony or something, it didn't look as natural, I can't describe it.  They're also a major ---smurfette--- to get in the service menu.

Noted. Did it scale to 480p?

[rCadeGaming]

I agree with you wanting to get rid your current TV.  Just make sure to test it side by side with your new one for comparison.  Do you have a Super Nintendo?

Two! Is there a reason i need to do this, other than to fully appreciate how good this Sony looks?

To appreciate the benefits of real 15kHz progressive if they're clear on the Sony but not on the other one.  It would also be good have a side by side of real 15kHz progressive next to something scaled.

I had a 27" that was equivalent to my Sony.  It was pretty similar, but somehow looked a little too "digital" for me, it lacked the "warmth" of the Sony or something, it didn't look as natural, I can't describe it.  They're also a major ---smurfette--- to get in the service menu.

Noted. Did it scale to 480p?

What's with this smurfette stuff I didn't type that 

No scaling, it was strictly 15kHz.  I just didn't like the picture as much and the service menu difficulty was a deal breaker.

[notbillcosby]

I'm visiting a friend for the next few days who lives several hours away in a much larger city. Thankfully, I had the forethought to look at his local Craigslist before I left home tonight... lo and behold, I found some Sonys! Awaiting model numbers, but hopefully I'll come home with a nice $20 monitor

[notbillcosby]

The set closest to me is a KV-24FV12. Will that work? Man oh man I hope so.

[rCadeGaming]

Here's some specs on it:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-b0cfwR7LgmI/p_15824FV12/Sony-KV-24FV12.html#details-tab

It's an FD Trinitron and it's listed as not compatible with 480p or higher, so it should be good.  I'd take a chance on it if it's fairly cheap.

If you can't normally find these in your area though I'd try to pick up more than one model while you're at your friend's.

[notbillcosby]

I hope to be snagging a KV-24FS120  I THINK thats yours. Yes?

[rCadeGaming]

Mine's KV-27FS120, but yeah should be exactly the same just scaled down slightly.

I'd get the FS and the FV while you have the opportunity.

[notbillcosby]

Well, the other one doesn't have composite in, an I dont have the funds to get a composite transcoder too. While I'm really appreciative of your advice and dont mean to argue, I feel like it'd be a safe bet to just get the 24"version of yours that I know should be awesome! Pretty excited about it, just waiting to hear back from the lady on when I can meet her.

[rCadeGaming]

You mean it doesn't have component in right? 

Those Crutchfield specs on inputs looked wrong to me.  I found the actual manual, and though there are more inputs, there's only 1 RF, 2 composite, and 1 s-video.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KV20FV12.PDF specs on p. 36

So basically you're right, good catch. 

Sorry about that.  I assumed that it would have component in because it should be a newer model than mine, but it might be a "budget" model.  Also, I may have been thinking of the KV-24FV300, which does have component.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KV24FV300.PDF specs on p.37

[notbillcosby]

Well, I didn't have time to get the TV while I was down there, but my friend is very graciously picking it up for me tomorrow! I'll get it in early August when they come up to visit. I have secured an ATI Radeon 9250 256mb card for $20 that I"ll be nabbing tomorrow, and may have found a transcoder that I can afford- more details on that once it's mine for sure. Working on getting Windows 64 so I can take full advantage of the 2 dual core processors in my MAMEbox. I cut out a dummy blank of plywood yesterday to work on laying out my control panel, and I just happened to find a nice USB gamepad for $1.88 at Goodwill the other day that I'm gonna try hacking for my Player 1 controls! Yes. I am well on my way and have plenty to do while I"m waiting for my beautiful monitor to show up. Excitement growing!

[rCadeGaming]

Well, I didn't have time to get the TV while I was down there, but my friend is very graciously picking it up for me tomorrow! I'll get it in early August when they come up to visit.

Nice.

I have secured an ATI Radeon 9250 256mb card for $20 that I"ll be nabbing tomorrow

Sounds great as well.

Working on getting Windows 64 so I can take full advantage of the 2 dual core processors in my MAMEbox.

XP 64 right?  Sounds good.

and may have found a transcoder that I can afford- more details on that once it's mine for sure.

What is it.  Sure it doesn't do any scaling?

I cut out a dummy blank of plywood yesterday to work on laying out my control panel

I would highly recommend using this layout:



It's the Sega Astro City cabinet layout, it can be found here:

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

There's several versions there (different ppi), so you print it in real size and trace, very easy.  That website explains some of why some people think it's much superior to the "American" or "square" layout.  This has also been argued at length here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=118842.0

and I just happened to find a nice USB gamepad for $1.88 at Goodwill the other day that I'm gonna try hacking for my Player 1 controls!

I'd stick with something that will be console friendly down the road.  Depending on the quality of this PC pad, it could have ghosting and lag issues, hard to tell.  Also, where are you going to get a matching one for player 2.  

I think you'd be better off waiting until you have money for a better solution than putting time into hacking this now.

[notbillcosby]

It's that RCA transcoder I PM'd you about. The manual sure makes it sound like it doesn't scale... Either way, it was $10.01 after shipping, which is WAY too good of a deal for me to pass up. There's no way you can disagree with that

I know we're getting pretty far off topic here, but I'll respond to the rest of this anyway..

Thanks for the button layout! My first control panel (they're going to be interchangeable so I don't have to have one super-cramped end-all panel) is going to be a single player 4-way stick with a custom button layout so it'll work nicely with the selection of old games that I play frequently. I WILL be doing a variant of that Sega layout on my 2 player fighting setup, just with 6 buttons each instead of 8. My fighter of choice is without a doubt Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, so more than 6 buttons doesn't need to happen.

From what I understood, ghosting and blocking issues were really only a keyboard thing; A gamepad with only 14 contacts including the D-pad seems like it would be made specifically to NOT have these problems. I do plan on testing it as extensively as possible before gutting it and spending an hour soldering leads to the board. It's a clone of a PS1 pad, i believe it's made by Gravis (but don't quote me, it's not sitting in front of me right now). It was a company that I was familiar with and wasn't some weirdo oddball controller that I'd never be able to find another of... And in the name of keeping it cheap, i think $2 for an interface beats the $70 I'd be spending on the Cthulhu. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to expand in the future to consoles and stuff, but in the same breath, there's nothing keeping me from ripping out $4 worth of gamepad parts and putting in a Cthulhu in the future. If nothing else, it'll be a good project to learn from and I'll find out that you were right all along!

[rCadeGaming]

It's that RCA transcoder I PM'd you about
...it was $10.01 after shipping

The Audio Authority 9A60 or the RCA VHDC300.  Either one sounded like it would work, just a little iffy.  Certainly worth the risk at that price.

My first control panel (they're going to be interchangeable so I don't have to have one super-cramped end-all panel) is going to be a single player 4-way stick with a custom button layout so it'll work nicely with the selection of old games that I play frequently.

Nice.  Progress pics please.  If you think this is off topic for this thread, you should start a build log thread.

I WILL be doing a variant of that Sega layout on my 2 player fighting setup, just with 6 buttons each instead of 8. My fighter of choice is without a doubt Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, so more than 6 buttons doesn't need to happen.

I'd recommend a 7 button, deleting the top right button from that layout.  I've been using that for a few years on my portable fight sticks, works great.  The four buttons across on the bottom is important for NEO GEO and Arc System Works games.  Ever played Last Blade?  Easily the most underrated NEO GEO game, better than Samurai Shodown and King of Fighters.

From what I understood, ghosting and blocking issues were really only a keyboard thing; A gamepad with only 14 contacts including the D-pad seems like it would be made specifically to NOT have these problems. I do plan on testing it as extensively as possible before gutting it and spending an hour soldering leads to the board.

Yeah probably not ghosting, but could be lag.  Maybe not.  I'm too picky, can you tell?  Just use screw terminals and everything will be easy to swap out if you want to make a change later.

[notbillcosby]

ALRIGHT! I got my TV last night! I have a Radeon 9250 that reportedly works with Soft15khz, and I have a transcoder. Next step is to get it all working together!

I haven't even looked at Soft15khz or Powerstrip yet. Do I need both of them, or will Soft15 do the trick?

[rCadeGaming]

Nice.

Powerstrip is pretty much essential.  Soft15kHz just unlocks low resolutions with your gfx card.  Powerstrip is needed to create custom resolutions not enabled by default, and to tweak geometry in all of them.  Technically Soft15kHz can do this, but not on the fly, and it's not nearly as user friendly/intuitive.

Do these steps in this order:

1.  First, I'm assuming you're running XP, make sure of that.

2.  Set your computer up where you can connect to either the TV or a monitor just by swapping the VGA cable.

3.  Hook the transcoder up to the TV.

4.  Install the graphics card.

5.  Start the computer using the monitor.

6.  Install the drivers for the card.  Every card that's as compatible with Soft15kHz has a specific driver listed.  Make sure to use that one.  Restart.

7.  Install Soft15kHz.  Click only the Install 15k button, not 24 or 31 or user/custom, whatever.  Restart when it's done.  Get the computer running in 480i.  At some point during this step, the monitor will stop working.  Your monitor probably can't do below 31kHz video, and the TV can't do over 15kHz, so you'll have to switch over once Soft15k gets you to that point.

8.  Once you get it running on the TV, then install Powerstrip, and start tweaking your resolutions. 

I can give you more tips on this once you get to this point.  Basically, your geometry might be crap at first, but it's easily fixed.  Try a couple different resolutions, and you'll probably see that some sync up right away, and some don't.  640x480 interlaced and 320x240 progressive will probably be good starting points.

Let me know how it goes/if you need more explanation.

[TalkingOctopus]

I built my arcade 10 years ago with a Sharp 27" 27uf-500 TV.  It has component inputs, but does not support 480p.  I've used S-Video.  It looks OK, but I've always regretted not using an arcade monitor (I couldn't afford it at the time).  From this thread, it sounds like I can use the component transcoder along with Soft15kHz and Powerstrip to output actual arcade resolutions w/ progressive scan for low-res games.  I have a Radeon 7500, which Soft15kHz appears to support.  Did I read this correctly? 

Instead of using Soft15kHz/Powerstrip, could you use the transcoder with ArcadeVGA to achieve the same results?

Final question: Since booting into Windows w/ the transcoder will use 480p, could this damage the TV?

Thanks!

[notbillcosby]

I've got a pretty busy week a head of me, but when I've got an hour or so to screw with things I'll definitely be doing it. Results to follow!

[rCadeGaming]

I built my arcade 10 years ago with a Sharp 27" 27uf-500 TV.  It has component inputs, but does not support 480p.  I've used S-Video.  It looks OK, but I've always regretted not using an arcade monitor (I couldn't afford it at the time).

If you were using the "S-Video Out" port from a PC, it's pretty certain that you were running everything scaled to 480i.

From this thread, it sounds like I can use the component transcoder along with Soft15kHz and Powerstrip to output actual arcade resolutions w/ progressive scan for low-res games.  I have a Radeon 7500, which Soft15kHz appears to support.  Did I read this correctly?

Did you locate that card on this list to confirm that it's compatible with with Soft15kHz?  If so, then yes.

Instead of using Soft15kHz/Powerstrip, could you use the transcoder with ArcadeVGA to achieve the same results?

Yes.  However, an ArcadeVGA is more expensive and less flexible, but it's probably more user friendly.

Final question: Since booting into Windows w/ the transcoder will use 480p, could this damage the TV?

Once Soft15kHz is installed, Windows can run in 480i (which you'll want to run your front-end in), but yes, the bios screen and start-up screens will probably still be 480p though, until you get to the desktop. 

Most 15kHz CRT's won't be destroyed instantly by receiving a signal over 15kHz (480p for example), they just show a lot of garbage.  I've done this plenty of times while tinkering with things, but not for more than a few seconds.  Supposedly it can damage things if left on for too long, so I try to minimize the risk now.

It's best to just get things set up, and then not turn on the TV until Windows gets to the desktop.  In my cabinet I'm working on using a computer controlled relay wired into the TV's power switch that will turn on the TV automatically once the front-end is loaded.

I'm working on using a computer controlled relay that will turn the TV on automatically after the front-end has loaded.

[rCadeGaming]

billcosby, you'll never guess what I got for free yesterday.  A KV24-FS100; wasn't even looking for one. 

I was at work, and a co-worker came back from a job with one and asked me if I wanted it.  It was like new, the customer just didn't want it because they'd upgraded to a flat panel.

Told you these things are common.  I've now got four of basically the same TV.  A 24", two 27"s, and a 32".

[notbillcosby]

Nicely done! Next week when my company is no longer in town I should have an evening to see how mine looks...

[TalkingOctopus]

I'm giving this a try as well. I picked up a KD-27FS170.  It looks like a newer version of the KD-27FS120.  It supports 480i and 1080i, however, no 480p.  Any experience with this set?

[rCadeGaming]

I thought you must have been mistaken, I had never heard of a CRT that supports 1080i but not 480i.  I've also never heard of one that supports 1080i and is still a 4:3 tube.  However, the specs listed here seem to confirm this:

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&partNumber=KD27FS170#specifications

This is really strange though.  Did you also look these specs up or have you tested it?  A PS3 would be a quick and easy way to test 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i individually.

I'd guess that if it displays 1080i, it will not actually display low res (15kHz progressive, ~240p) without upscaling it.  Try plugging in a Super Nintendo, and see what it looks like.  Look for scanlines, and share some close up pictures if you can.

[ceburto2]

Been following this conversation as I have some of the same questions. It looks as if I lucked into a pretty good set-up. Unkowingly, the TV I picked up on CL is a Sony 27" (KV-27FS100). I also got a bag of MAME gear from CL cheap in preparation for my build and ended up with an Ultimarc ArcadeVGA card for not much money. Anything I may need to know, equipment wise, other than VGA-Component converter?

Thanks for all the info

-ceburto2

[rCadeGaming]

Burto, that TV will be perfect, and yes you'll need a transcoder.  Again I recommend the Crescendo Systems models, as they're the highest quality and I've personally had great success with them.  I don't know if I mentioned this one, but I think JS technology makes a good one as well that should work.

As for the ArcadeVGA I think I've said what I think of them a few times... don't think you're stuck with it just because you've got one now.  You can pick up a great card that's compatible with Soft15kHz for under $20 sometimes on eBay (and maybe sell the ArcadeVGA for more).  I'm using nVidia GeForce 7300GS's, I picked up a couple of them that way.  You just have to choose a card depending on whether your motherboard has an AGP or PCI-express slot.  Mine is the latter. 

[ceburto2]

I noticed that you had referenced the TC1600 in previous posts. Crescendo only advertises the TC1500. I sent them an email concerning the differences between the 2 products. Perhaps you know how they differ? It may be moot as the TC1500 is the only product that appears to be available.  I will probably start with the ArcadeVGA card, because it is on hand. As you say, I am not stuck with it should I change my mind.  Thanks.

-ceburto2

[rCadeGaming]

http://www.crescendo-systems.com/transcoder.html

The only differences are "Adjustable low level gamma" and "Fully adjustable picture shift with control of H-delay, H-width and V-width."  All of these adjustments can be made in Powerstrip if you get a more flexible gfx card.

[TalkingOctopus]

I tested the KD-27FS170 with a PS3 through component.  It does not support 1080i (or 480p).  The online specs seem to lie, but is it possible the TV only supports 480i through component (which the online specs suggest)?  Could it still upscale 480i to 1080i?  How else could you get a 1080i signal to the TV if you cannot use component?  The tuner?

I don't have a SNES ready to go right now, but I'll set one up and take pictures of the results tomorrow.  Maybe it will shed some light on this messed up TV.

EDIT: I found this wikipedia page that seems to confirm it can process an 1080i signal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA

Sony calls this tech "Hi-Scan", which "is Sony's trademark for all Trinitron displays capable of processing a 1080i signal."

EDIT 2: This forum thread claims the TV downconverts everything to 480i.

http://www.highdefforum.com/direct-view-tube-tvs/98235-kd-27fs170-hd-not.html

"It does say 1080i display resolution in the marketing specs but that is an error. It should have read "1080i display capability" which only means that the TV can accept a 1080i signal."

[ceburto2]

The only differences are "Adjustable low level gamma" and "Fully adjustable picture shift with control of H-delay, H-width and V-width."  All of these adjustments can be made in Powerstrip if you get a more flexible gfx card.

I wish I knew how to use my scroll wheel    Sorry, I didn't see the TC1600 lower on the page. Thank you.

-ceburto2

[rCadeGaming]

This forum thread claims the TV downconverts everything to 480i.

That is just bizarre, but again your links do seem to confirm it.  Luckily we don't care what it does with 1080i, just what it does with something around 240p. 

If it can't actually display anything over 480i, that means it's a strictly 15kHz set; so there's a good chance that it will display ~240p correctly instead of upscaling it.

Go ahead with the SNES test, that will clear everything up.  If you have it, the large text on the Super Mario World title screen is a good reference.  Set your camera to a high resolution and take some pictures as close as you can without losing focus.

[ceburto2]

I think that I'm going to go with the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA converter. Product details here, http://www.audioauthority.com/product_details/9A60   I found it for around $40 cheaper than advertised here. Looks like a good solution.

-ceburto2

[harveybirdman]

I'm very interested to see how your transcoder works notbillcosby, I am going to need one and I've already wasted a bunch of funds on crap that won't work.

I don't have any AGP or PCI-E slots on my motherboard so I can't upgrade to a card that suporrts the DVI to Component dongle I bought.  I finally got my PCI ATI Radeon 7500 card working but the s-video is garbage.

Therefore VGA to Component seems to be the only option.  But I'm not sure if I have quite the appetite for $100 plus to spring for the one rCadeGaming suggests...

[notbillcosby]

Alright. I've had a few bursts of free time to try to get this working. I have Soft15khz and Powerstrip. I open Soft15khz and click on the four "install" buttons and nothing seems to happen. I've restarted plenty of times... I can't turn my resolution below 800x600, and the refresh rate is fixed at 60hz, in both the system dialog boxes and the Catalyst software. I'm using that Radeon 9250 PCI card. I feel like I've just missed a step somewhere... I can't find a great tutorial on Soft15khz. I have the feeling that I'm supposed to be doing something more with it somehow...

UPDATE: I uninstalled ATI drivers and installed a newer version, and after restarting in "VGA Mode" from the F8 boot menu, I got it to display at 640x480 60hz. Plugging into my TV gives me grabled crap.

UPDATE 2: And however it happened, Now I'm typing this to you while viewing on the Sony at 640x480! It's kinda jittery looking, but I'm guessing if I figure out how to  get 320x240 going on here it'll look a lot better.

[rCadeGaming]

I'm using that Radeon 9250 PCI card.

Hmm, I'm technically not seeing a Radeon 9250 PCI card listed as compatible with Soft15kHz.  Before you just said that it was a 9250, didn't mention it was PCI.  Anyway, it does list a 9250 AGP card as working.  It's very likely that the PCI version just isn't listed because it hasn't been tested.  It's probably the same thing and will work perfectly.  Just something to watch out for.

The 9250 AGP is listed here:

http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten/page3

UPDATE: I uninstalled ATI drivers and installed a newer version, and after restarting in "VGA Mode" from the F8 boot menu, I got it to display at 640x480 60hz. Plugging into my TV gives me grabled crap.

Yes, you need the correct drivers installed before installing Soft15kHz.  I should also have mentioned that you should use the exact drivers recommended with Soft15kHz.  In the listing for the 9250 AGP, it says to use Catalyst 6.1. 

It's very important to do these steps before continuing:

1.  Get ahold of that exact driver.

2.  Uninstall Soft15kHz (and Powerstrip if you installed that already).  At some point here the TV should stop working and you'll switch back to the monitor.

3.  Uninstall the current graphics driver.

4.  Start fresh with these steps:

5.  Start the computer using the monitor.

6.  Install the drivers for the card.  Every card that's as compatible with Soft15kHz has a specific driver listed.  Make sure to use that one.  Restart.

7.  Install Soft15kHz.  Click only the Install 15k button, not 24 or 31 or user/custom, whatever.  Restart when it's done.  Get the computer running in 480i.  At some point during this step, the monitor will stop working.  Your monitor probably can't do below 31kHz video, and the TV can't do over 15kHz, so you'll have to switch over once Soft15k gets you to that point.

8.  Once you get it running on the TV, then install Powerstrip, and start tweaking your resolutions.

Sounds like you already got it working on the TV in 480i, but this is important to make sure everything is working correctly, so you'll have as many resolutions available as you can.

UPDATE 2: And however it happened, Now I'm typing this to you while viewing on the Sony at 640x480! It's kinda jittery looking, but I'm guessing if I figure out how to  get 320x240 going on here it'll look a lot better.

You mean on the TV right?  640x480 now works on the TV because Soft15kHz changed it from 480p to 480i.  Try the steps above, then see what 480i looks like.  Then try some progressive resolutions which will look better.  320x240 is a good starting point.  Then we can get into how to make MAME run right in native res.

[notbillcosby]

Ok. I got the right driver version installed. 15khz is running, and the screen is showing at 480i on my TV. I installed Powerstrip and tweaked the .ini file to allow lower resolutions to be selected in the Powerstrip Display Profiles.  321()x240 is an option so I select it, hit apply, and immediately see a, "do you want to keep these settings?" dialog with no change to the display. Restarting the computer returns the setting to 640x480. Agh. Now what?

[notbillcosby]

Oh, and just because I'm antsy, I ran a bunch of games in 480i just because I haven't gotten to see this TV display ANYTHING but a Windows desktop so far. Once I get the resolutions right, it's gonna look really nice! I did notice in games with a lot of scolling- first saw it in TMNT- that the background will kinda "tear" along an invisible horizontal line, and the bottom half of the screen will look like it's moving a few pixels ahead of the top half of the screen. It wasn't just Turtles or Konami games, it was a lot if not all of the scrolling games. It also didn't seem like the computer should be struggling with it, as the games were otherwise running beautifully. Is this a symptom of not displaying the right resolution or something, or is this a setting I can change somewhere? Hopefully it's not just my video card or computer.

[rCadeGaming]

Ok.  I got the right driver version installed. 15khz is running, and the screen is showing at 480i on my TV.

Did you uninstall Soft15kHz and Powerstrip before updating the driver?  Did you run through the steps above in order?  We need to be on the same page for me to be able to help you.

I installed Powerstrip and tweaked the .ini file to allow lower resolutions to be selected in the Powerstrip Display Profiles.

You should not have needed to edit the .ini file to select low resolutions.  They should already be there if you installed Powerstrip after Soft15kHz was reinstalled with the correct driver.  Where did you get the instructions for the editing, this could be causing problems itself.

Oh, and just because I'm antsy, I ran a bunch of games in 480i just because I haven't gotten to see this TV display ANYTHING but a Windows desktop so far. Once I get the resolutions right, it's gonna look really nice! I did notice in games with a lot of scolling- first saw it in TMNT- that the background will kinda "tear" along an invisible horizontal line, and the bottom half of the screen will look like it's moving a few pixels ahead of the top half of the screen. It wasn't just Turtles or Konami games, it was a lot if not all of the scrolling games. It also didn't seem like the computer should be struggling with it, as the games were otherwise running beautifully. Is this a symptom of not displaying the right resolution or something, or is this a setting I can change somewhere? Hopefully it's not just my video card or computer.

The tearing is completely expected.  This is because MAME is rendering frames in software at a different refresh rate than the output resolution.  This will be eliminated once everything's configured correctly.

[notbillcosby]

Yes, I did the steps in order. I guess I can uninstall everything and do it again.

The .ini instructions were in a thread about powerstrip. You add one line that sets the minimum resolution lower.

I guess one thing that could have some affect on things was that I had to boot into VGA mode once to get 640x480 to show up in the windows display properties.

[rCadeGaming]

Can you give me a link to the thread?  I can't make guesses as to what's going on without all the info.

Anyhow, you should not need to do this if Powerstrip had a clean install after Soft15kHz is running correctly.

[notbillcosby]

I totally uninstalled everything, re-installed everything double checking to make sure I did it all in the right order, and now I'm back running on the TV at 480i. Powerstrip only has a slider that goes down to 512x448 in Display Profiles>Configure, and even when I set the fader that low and reboot, the resolution is back up at 640x480.

On my previous install, it was at this point that I added the line to the .ini file. What I had earlier remembered as a thread was actually a Wiki page:
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Custom_display_modes_(Windows)_-_Powerstrip#Plan_the_resolutions

It tells you to add the line "MinLines=200" to the .ini file to allow for lower resolutions. I haven't done that yet on my fresh re-install, but on the times that I HAVE added that line, it does indeed let the slider move lower. It has 321x240 as an option and not 320x240 for whatever reason. It does the same thing though, where setting the fader to a lower resolution doesn't seem to do anything at all.

[rCadeGaming]

Try getting into lower resolutions using the catalyst software.  Once you've displayed them successfully, they should be added to Powerstrip's list.

After I had installed everything, many new resolutions were available through my nVidia software.  Sounds like things may be going differently for you because of the different graphics card.

[notbillcosby]

Windows and Catalyst both only go to 640x480. I had to do the "Enable VGA Mode" thing in the F8 boot menu that I keep talking about in order to have it give me the option of anything below 800x600. Ugh! Stupid video card. I'm using a server for my Mame computer which means I don't have a lot of options for video cards, since they have to be PCI and can't have a huge fan or heat sync on it.

[rCadeGaming]

I hate to tell you this, but that card may actually be incompatible with Soft15kHz.  Did you confuse it with the AGP card when researching it?  If you read down near the bottom of that page you linked to, it discusses how outputting proper low resolutions isn't physically possible with many graphics cards do to the lower limit of the pixel clock.  If you do need another card, I think there are plenty of PCI cards listed as compatible.

We can try a little more before we give up hope on this one.  Maybe the process is a little different since you're using an ATI with Catalyst, whereas I use a nVidia with nView software (which sounds like it's much more convenient, I'd recommend some kind of GeForce).

Go ahead and edit that line in the Powerstrip (minlines = 200), and tell me what resolutions are available.  Anything else besides 321x240?  I'll give you some values to create custom resolutions if you're not seeing anything.

[notbillcosby]

I knew full well that the PCI 9250 wasn't in that list but the AGP was. I posted here and crossed my fingers:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,119740.msg1288742.html#msg1288742

Maybe I struck out.

There's a whoooole bunch of other resolutions listed in Powerstrip. Any time i've tried switching to any of them, it acts like it doesn't even try to think about doing it before popping up with a "do you want to keep these new settings?"-style dialog box. Restarting the computer never does anything but reset the slider to 640x480.

[rCadeGaming]

Sounds like it's not compatible 

Even if my card/TV setup doesn't work with a certain resolution, it will display a distorted image/garbage.  Sounds like yours isn't even able to attempt low res.

Try 392x240.  Look in Powerstrip's advanced timing options.  Let me know what the values are on the right hand side for this resolution (vertical and horizontal scan rate, front porch, back porch, sync width, etc.).  A print screen would be very useful.

[notbillcosby]

So you mean, set the slider to that resolution and take a screen shot? The screen will still be 640x480.

[rCadeGaming]

Yeah, I just want to see the values.  You can also see if anything happens when you click apply, but it sounds like it won't.

[notbillcosby]

On this thread:
http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten

Only 3 PCI cards are listed as working fully. Pleny of PCI-e of course, but since I have a PCI-x slot they do me no good. My options are the Matrox Millenium, Nvidia Geforce4 mx420, and the ATI Radeon 9200se. Agh! I have a 9250!!

I think the Radeon would be my best bet, the Matrox looks like it has extremely low video ram, and the Geforce only has 64. The 128 on the Radeon seems like a significant improvement... Might have to snag one of those.

[rCadeGaming]

Didn't realize the options were so slim, I must have been seeing a lot of PCI-e cards.  Is it not possible to upgrade the PC?  A good mobo and cpu is under $200, and there are dozens of good PCI-e cards compatible that are cheap.  A fast PC is needed to run certain games at full speed.

Anyhow, if not, try one those cards.

Post that screenshot, and I'll be able to tell better if Soft15kHz is working correctly and it's definitely the card.

[notbillcosby]

It's a 1u rackmount server so my options are a little limited. The computer was free and I didn't want to sink more money into it... But if I need to I"m sure I can find something decent and used for $75 if I put my mind to it. But we're gonna try to not do that first

I'll get a screen shot tonight when I"m home from work.

[notbillcosby]

Advanced Timing Options is grayed out! I was going to post a picture of that... but i don't really need to.

Probably going to buy that Radeon with the model number so close to mine that it hurts. $20 after shipping. I'll cross my fingers harder this time...

[rCadeGaming]

Unclickable?  No matter which resolution you select?  Yeah, that pretty much settles it.  Advanced timing options is mandatory for correcting geometry and refresh rate.

[notbillcosby]

Yup.

I ordered the 9200se PCI. Looks like I'll be focusing my efforts on something non-monitor related this weekend!

[TalkingOctopus]

I finally got this to work w/ my Sharp TV.  It looks fantastic!  Thanks for the help rCadeGaming. 

I got the Crescendo transcoder you recommended.  I haven't made any adjustments yet (i.e. V-Width, H-Width, or gamma).  Did you adjust the transcoder or just use PowerStrip?

I still need to figure out how to use PowerStrip to adjust the geometry.  Using Windows in 320x240 is kinda painful.  Any tips for this step?  Also, it looks like there are dozens of different 15khz resolutions used by arcade games.  Do I need to use Power Strip to adjust the geometry for each one? 

NotBillCosby -- You should try these modified drivers with your Radeon 9250: http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/viewtopic.php?id=1424.  I have a Radeon 7500 that supposedly work with Soft15khz using Catalyst 6.1.  However, I had the same problem as you.  The drivers I linked to worked (and I think are based on Catalyst 6.5).

[notbillcosby]

Frustration town over here in the Notbillcosby world...

I went to the post office to pick up my Radeon 9200SE PCI card that I ordered. What's the sticker on the bottom say?

Radeon 9250

...which is the card I already own and can't get working. I want to punch someone in the mouth. Hopefully my computer will recognize it as a 9200se magically somehow... Otherwise, I really hope those modified drivers listed above work for me, and that I can get a refund on this bunk Ebay purchase. Now I have to wait 12 more hours before I can install the card and see what Windows has to say about it. Yuck.

[rCadeGaming]

I finally got this to work w/ my Sharp TV.  It looks fantastic!  Thanks for the help rCadeGaming.

I got the Crescendo transcoder you recommended.  I haven't made any adjustments yet (i.e. V-Width, H-Width, or gamma).  Did you adjust the transcoder or just use PowerStrip?

You'll notice in the TC1600 manual (pdf can be found on the website) that these settings are set to an automatic mode.  You can open it up and change a jumper to get full control of this, but I'd recommend leaving it in auto.  It's best to make all the adjustments on the computer end, so that they'll be associated with individual resolutions.

BTW, these transcoders can be used to get RGB video out of your PC Engine/TurboGrafx, Genesis/Megadrive, SNES, Saturn, PS1,2,3, or Gamecube with the proper wiring; along with anything else that can do straight VGA of course, like the Dreamcast or XBox/XBox 360.

I still need to figure out how to use PowerStrip to adjust the geometry.  Using Windows in 320x240 is kinda painful.  Any tips for this step?

For windows, you can normally use 480i on the TV, but if you're adjusting specific resolutions in Powerstrip you will have to use it in whatever res you're working with.  Get Powerstrip into advanced timing options, and scroll the window to the numeric horizontal and vertical adjustments.  Make adjustments here, not with the arrows.  It will be more useful and you'll learn more.  You should read up on what all of these values mean.

To set up a specific res for a game, it can be useful to get Windows and the game running in the same res, so you can alt-tab between to Powerstrip and the game to adjust and test on the fly.  Also don't forget that a lot of games have useful test patterns in the service menus.

Also, it looks like there are dozens of different 15khz resolutions used by arcade games.  Do I need to use Power Strip to adjust the geometry for each one?

Yes, kind of. 

Note that most games run on hardware that's shared with a lot of other games.  For example, Street Fighter II runs on CPS-2 hardware, so once you've tweaked up Street Fighter II just right, you can tell MAME to use those setting for all CPS-2 games, as well as CPS-1 and CPS-3 since it uses the same resolution.

Same thing with NEO GEO, once you've set up one NEO GEO game, you're done tweaking for all of them, etc.  There's not too many games you'll be concerned with that ran on totally unique hardware.

For example, right click on Super Street Fighter II in MAME.  Instead of clicking "Properties," click "Properties for cps2.c."  The changes made here will apply to all CPS-2 games (unless they are overruled by changes made for specific games, watch out for this).

After you've set up a CPS-2 game, open MAME's folder list.  Select "Source" and you'll see a list of all the different types of hardware in MAME.  Click on "cps2.c" to find all the CPS-2 games.

Note that to really get things running perfectly, you should be matching the refresh rate you're outputting to the original refresh rate of the game.

Right click a game and select "Properties" to see the game's native resolution and refresh rate, listed as "screen."

Geometry changes in Powerstrip will alter the refresh rate.  Set your geometry first and then tweak the refresh rate.  This can be done without affecting geometry by adjusting vertical front porch.  I think, it might be back porch.  Anyway, I haven't worked on this in a few months, it's one of those and it could vary depending on your display.

As you're adjusting things, the screen may start warping, then flickering, then just freaking out.  This is because you're reaching the limits of what horizontal or vertical scan rates the TV can display.  Learn what values can adjust scan rates without affecting geometry.  Then, when your geometry seems to reach its limit, use that value to bring the scan rate back in line, and then you may be able to push the geometry a little further.

When you start messing with a resolution, take note of what the original values were in case you need to go back.

In advanced timing options, you can right click on the little icon just to right to of the cancel button to create a desktop shortcut to the current settings.

When you get good enough with Powerstrip, you can move around the numeric values with tab and shift-tab and adjust with the arrow keys to adjust blindly.  This can be used to tune in some resolutions that don't seem to work at first.  If you want to try this, it's very helpful to have a firm grasp of what all the values mean.  Try starting with a resolution from Soft15kHz that looks like it just barely doesn't work.

Now, you may notice that you might need two different versions of the same resolution so you can have different geometry or refresh rates for different games.  You'll have to either make compromises, or get into GroovyMAME or AdvanceMAME to deal with this.  I might be coding this into my custom Front-End but that is a long way off.

***If anyone has any tricks for two timings of the same resolution in Powerstrip, speak up!***

If you read the way the shortcuts work, it looks like you may be able to control Powerstrip through the command prompt, but I haven't played with this yet.

Example: "C:\Program Files\PowerStrip\PStrip.exe" /t:1280,54,136,130,720,33,3,25,59921,336

Also, you can use MAME's slider controls (press TAB in game, go down to slider controls) to adjust the picture up/down/left/right a little for individual games.  ONLY use the position controls, as the stretch controls will ruin your native res.  Leave these at 1.00.

Edit: Powerstrip will list refresh rate as halved (around 30Hz) for interlaced resolutions because it's referring to the number of complete frames per second.  You're still putting out around 60 fields per second whether you're running in interlaced or progressive.  It's just that in progressive one field = one frame, whereas in interlaced every two fields are combined to produce one frame.

Frustration town over here in the Notbillcosby world...

I went to the post office to pick up my Radeon 9200SE PCI card that I ordered. What's the sticker on the bottom say?

Radeon 9250

...which is the card I already own and can't get working. I want to punch someone in the mouth. Hopefully my computer will recognize it as a 9200se magically somehow... Otherwise, I really hope those modified drivers listed above work for me, and that I can get a refund on this bunk Ebay purchase. Now I have to wait 12 more hours before I can install the card and see what Windows has to say about it. Yuck.

That's lame.  Try octopus's drivers.  Hopefully the sticker is wrong somehow, but if you were mislead into buying something other than what was advertised I would lean hard on that guy.  He should pay a full refund including shipping and return shipping.

-

Here are some important MAME settings.  Set MAME's defaults to this (Options -> Default Game Options, or mame.ini), and make further adjustment per hardware or per game.  This should usually involve just setting the resolution.

Code: [Select]

#
# CORE PERFORMANCE OPTIONS
#
autoframeskip             0 <---depends on game
frameskip                 0
seconds_to_run            0
throttle                  1 <--- can't remember about this one, this is how I have it working currently
sleep                     0
speed                     1.0
refreshspeed              0 <---important, leave this at 0

#
# WINDOWS VIDEO OPTIONS
#
video                     ddraw <---extremely important
numscreens                1
window                    0
maximize                  1
keepaspect                1
prescale                  1
effect                    none
waitvsync                 0
syncrefresh               1 <---important, leave this at 1

#
# DIRECTDRAW-SPECIFIC OPTIONS
#
hwstretch                 0 <---extremely important, leave this at 0

#
# FULL SCREEN OPTIONS
#
triplebuffer              0 <---don't use this, it causes lag
switchres                 1
full_screen_brightness    1.0
full_screen_contrast      1.0
full_screen_gamma         1.0
Keep autoframeskip at 0 if your pc can handle it.  If it can't run a game at 100% use auto by setting it to 1.

Using directdraw with hardware stretch off will ensure native resolutions.

Syncrefresh runs the game at your output refresh speed, and prevents tearing.  If you get audio stuttering, it's because you haven't matched your refresh rate closely enough the game's original rate.  Autoframeskip is a workaround to fix this, but it's best to match refresh rates.

-

Finally, one very important final note.  You will find that you can't actually get every singe arcade resolution running.  You don't have to, you just need something close, but a bit larger.

After setting MAME up to use directdraw with hardware stretch off, trying running a CPS-2 game in 640x480 (480i if you're on the TV).  You should see that the native res is being displayed in the center with a lot of black pixels around the sides to fill out the rest of the resolution.  This is very useful.  (You may not see this if the display resolution is double or more the native, it may still stretch)

I can't get the CPS-2's 384x224 working on my setup.  What I do is run it in 392x240, which works very nicely.  I adjust the geometry of this resolution so the black letterbox is outside the physical viewing area of the TV.  The result is that I'm seeing the game on the TV in perfect native res.  Each original pixel is reproduced 1 for 1.  It just happens that there are extra black pixels around the sides, but I can't see them.

Similarly, I run NEO-GEO games (320x224) in 320x240.

[TalkingOctopus]

Thanks again for such a detailed reply.  I'm finding it almost impossible to adjust resolution timings through PowerStrip.  I used it to adjust 480i without any issues, but the lower resolutions (like 320x240) freak out the moment I adjust any of the numeric properties in the advanced timing. I don't even need to adjust anything to make the TV freak out.  Just tabbing through the properties triggers it.  I tried both my Sharp and Sony TVs.  Both displayed the same results.  If I continue adjusting, I eventually end up with a reasonable image, but it isn't wide enough.  By default, almost every resolution looks good, but has significant overscan that I'd like to correct.  I spent over an hour trying to configure 320x240 and 320x224 without success.  Is this normal?  Is it really this hard or is my videocard deficient?

Get Powerstrip into advanced timing options...You should read up on what all of these values mean.

I'd like to read about these.  Do you have any good resources that explain them?  I couldn't find any when searching.

[notbillcosby]

I'd also like to say thanks again, rCadeGaming. You've been incredibly helpful, for weeks and weeks. I feel like this thread should be stickied.

So I installed those modified drivers, as best as I could tell. Installed them, and Quickres was installed as part of the package. I did the normal steps to get things running on the TV and with Powerstrip like before... Nothing new happened in Powerstrip, HOWEVER, I can get the resolution to change very easily from Quickres! So I know that I can at least do this physically. When Windows is set to 320*240 and I try to run a game in Mame through mGalaxy, it just beeps and shows the mouse pointer and doesn't move and I wind up CTRL+ALT+DEL'ing my way back out of everything. mGalaxy is super friggin' hard to read in this resolution too, though I'm pretty sure you've said that windows/mame/frontend can still be 480i since the resolution will change when the game starts.

Blah. Anyway. I'm getting the correct 9200SE sent to me, so maybe I don't even feel like fighting against this card and will just wait a week until I have one that (hopefully!) works right off the bat.

[rCadeGaming]

I'm finding it almost impossible to adjust resolution timings through PowerStrip.  I used it to adjust 480i without any issues, but the lower resolutions (like 320x240) freak out the moment I adjust any of the numeric properties in the advanced timing. I don't even need to adjust anything to make the TV freak out.  Just tabbing through the properties triggers it.  I tried both my Sharp and Sony TVs.  Both displayed the same results.  If I continue adjusting, I eventually end up with a reasonable image, but it isn't wide enough.  By default, almost every resolution looks good, but has significant overscan that I'd like to correct.  I spent over an hour trying to configure 320x240 and 320x224 without success.  Is this normal?  Is it really this hard or is my videocard deficient?

I'd have to say no, this isn't normal.  I don't know if it's your graphics card's hardware, or the modified drivers, or incompatibility with Powerstrip.  At least on my setup, I can adjust any of those numeric values by several clicks before the picture begins to distort, and then it gets worse gradually and isn't completely lost for a few more values.

I'd like to read about these.  Do you have any good resources that explain them?  I couldn't find any when searching.

http://forums.entechtaiwan.com/index.php?topic=1620.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_blanking_interval
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_blanking_interval
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_scan_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_television

The electron beam in a CRT draws each line one pixel at at a time from left to right, then moves down one line to do the next one.

Total pixels from left to right = H back porch + active pixels (horizontal resolution) + H front porch + H sync width
Total Lines from top to bottom = V back porch + active lines (vertical resolution) + V front porch + V sync width

Technically, the electron beam returns to the top/left side of the screen (depending if we're talking V or H) during the time the sync width lines/pixels are being transmitted.  It is told to do so by the V/H sync.

Edit: Some more description I had written down elsewhere:

When the CRT's electron beam finishes scanning the last active line of video (the bottom of the active resolution), it scans a few blank lines, known as front porch, before the vertical sync pulse tells it to return to the top of the screen again. 

Sync width is the amount of time that the vertical sync pulse is active.  It is an amount of time measured it time duration of a line, but does not actually refer to lines being drawn, as the electron beam is busy travelling back to the top of the screen.

So I installed those modified drivers, as best as I could tell. Installed them, and Quickres was installed as part of the package. I did the normal steps to get things running on the TV and with Powerstrip like before... Nothing new happened in Powerstrip, HOWEVER, I can get the resolution to change very easily from Quickres! So I know that I can at least do this physically. When Windows is set to 320*240 and I try to run a game in Mame through mGalaxy, it just beeps and shows the mouse pointer and doesn't move and I wind up CTRL+ALT+DEL'ing my way back out of everything. mGalaxy is super friggin' hard to read in this resolution too, though I'm pretty sure you've said that windows/mame/frontend can still be 480i since the resolution will change when the game starts.

Blah. Anyway. I'm getting the correct 9200SE sent to me, so maybe I don't even feel like fighting against this card and will just wait a week until I have one that (hopefully!) works right off the bat.

Yeah, you shouldn't be having problems with Powerstrip.  You'll need to adjust geometry/refresh rate somehow.

Thanks again for such a detailed reply.

I'd also like to say thanks again, rCadeGaming. You've been incredibly helpful, for weeks and weeks.

Not a problem.  Just glad it's appreciated.  Unfortunately, I won't be able to give such long respones for much longer.  This stuff takes a while to type, and I'm getting short on time.  I decided to go back to school for another degree and I just started last week.

I feel like this thread should be stickied.

That would definitely be cool, I don't know how you go about that.  Maybe you could take care of it.  It might difficult though, some people don't seem to like me because of this thread, hahaha:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,118842.40.html

[notbillcosby]

I've had the 9200SE for a few days now, and have spent several nights trying to get the damn thing going. I can get as far as I could with the other card, just now the MinLines=200 mod in the pstrip.ini file doesn't even do anything. I've made sure I was using the Sapphire Radeon 9200SE Atlantis driver that is listed as the functioning one. I've tried it with the 6.1 driver from ATI as well as the modded drivers posted above. I've tried using the "9200 series" drivers that it tries to default to instead of the Atlantis one. I've made sure to completely uninstall all relevant crap between each try, going so far as to delete registry entries that pertain to anything Powerstrip or Radeon so I'm sure that I'm not reusing any bits from prior installs. I can probably try things a few more ways, but man oh man, it does not want to cooperate.   

[rCadeGaming]

Did you go through the steps I detailed in that exact order?  It's important that you install drivers first, Soft15kHz second, and Powerstrip third.

Exactly what operating system are you running?  I remember you said this was some kind of server computer.  I'm thinking it could be a problem if you're not running XP Pro 32 or XP Pro 64.  I'm using the latter.

I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't know much about servers, so I don't know if there's something going on there.  If these problems persist, you'll probably need to get some direct support on the Soft15kHz forum.  Please keep us updated here if you do.

[notbillcosby]

Yeah. I'm doing everything in order.


I'm using XP Pro 32. Servers are just computers in a flat case, shouldn't really be anything special going on there. So you're thinking this is a Soft15khz issue and not a Powerstrip issue? It seemed to me like Soft15 was doing fine since I was able to display 480i on my TV, but maybe it has some effect on resolutions that I'm not understanding/remembering.

[rCadeGaming]

In addition to 480i, you should have a bunch of 15kHz progressive resolutions (~240p, like 320x240 or 392x240), working as soon as Soft15kHz is installed.  Powerstrip is just for adjusting geometry and refresh rate, and adding further resolutions beyond that.

See here for the list of resolutions enabled by Soft15kHz:

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Custom_display_modes_(Windows)_-_Soft-15khz

Don't worry about the 24kHz and 31kHz resolutions.

[TalkingOctopus]

You should try a clean install after uninstalling Soft15khz, PowerStrip, and then ATI drivers.  Afterwards, use  DriverSweeper to completely remove the ATI drivers. 

http://phyxion.net/item/driver-sweeper.html

I'd then use the drivers I linked to earlier:  http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/viewtopic.php?id=1424.  You don't need to install Soft15khz with these drivers.  Just install PowerStrip afterwards to allow for fine tuning.  I managed to get this configuration to work nicely with my Radeon 7500.  There's some overscan on some resolutions, but it's a small amount that I can live with.

Good Luck!

[rCadeGaming]

You should try a clean install after uninstalling Soft15khz, PowerStrip, and then ATI drivers.  Afterwards, use  DriverSweeper to completely remove the ATI drivers. 

Sounds like a good idea.

There's some overscan on some resolutions, but it's a small amount that I can live with.

Anything 15kHz, older arcade games or console games, are designed with a certain amount of overscan in mind.  You don't really want to see the border of the active resolution in this setup.  That being said, keep working with Powerstrip to get a good minimum level of overscan.

Sounds like its working well Octupus, got any pics of your setup?

[notbillcosby]

Alright! I'm able to run windows at all sorts of obnoxiously low resolutions now! I used the driver cleaner you recommended and it must've done the trick. I'm running the drivers you posted above. Thanks!

Now! Next problem

It doesn't seem like Mame is resetting the resolution for me. I'm r unning MGalaxy as a front end, and it's MUCH easier to read in 480i. So, I had windows set at 640x480, changed the mame.ini file to match the settings you listed above to turn off hardware stretching and such, fired up MGalaxy, and ran Ninja Turtles. It was very obviously still interlaced. So, I reset the Windows desktop to a painful-to-use 320x240 and ran TMNT again- this time it looked much better, with no flicker and plenty of pronounced horizontal scan lines. I then ran Mortal Kombat 3- a game that runs at a higher resolution that I am extremely familiar with the look of- and got video that was pretty obviously a lower resolution than it was supposed to be, leading me to believe it was still sitting at 320x240.

What'd I miss? I'll attach my mame.ini file.

[rCadeGaming]

Nice!  Good to hear.

Your mame.ini looks good, but it's saved as mame.ini.txt.  Did you just do that to upload it?  Make the actual one's not that way.  Your windows explorer settings may be hiding known file extensions even while renaming.  At the top of the windows explorer window click tools, folder options, select the view tab, and uncheck hide extensions for known file types.

Also, looks you should enable skip game info, and also you ought to use highscore.diff to get rid of the other nag screens.

Enable multithreading if you upgrade to windows xp 64.

-

Ok, so your current problem is any easy one.  You have to specifically tell MAME what resolution to run in on a per game or per hardware basis (usually the latter).

There's one more very important to change to your MAME.ini you need first.  Go to options->default game options->screen tab, and set the screen to a specific monitor; whatever your TV is, probably will say DISPLAY1.  Just make sure it's not set to auto or you can't change resolutions.

Now right click on a CPS-2 game like Super Street Fighter II and click properties for cps2.c.  On the screen tab set resolution to 392x240p.  You now have a crap-ton of games set to the right resolution.

Note that most games run on hardware that's shared with a lot of other games.  For example, Street Fighter II runs on CPS-2 hardware, so once you've tweaked up Street Fighter II just right, you can tell MAME to use those setting for all CPS-2 games, as well as CPS-1 and CPS-3 since it uses the same resolution.

Same thing with NEO GEO, once you've set up one NEO GEO game, you're done tweaking for all of them, etc.  There's not too many games you'll be concerned with that ran on totally unique hardware.

For example, right click on Super Street Fighter II in MAME.  Instead of clicking "Properties," click "Properties for cps2.c."  The changes made here will apply to all CPS-2 games (unless they are overruled by changes made for specific games, watch out for this).

After you've set up a CPS-2 game, open MAME's folder list.  Select "Source" and you'll see a list of all the different types of hardware in MAME.  Click on "cps2.c" to find all the CPS-2 games.

Do the same thing for CPS-1 and CPS-3, which you can also run in 392x240, and NEO GEO in 320x240.  Now, you'll have a lot of stuff ready to go.

Note that the CPS-1, 2, and 3 all ran at the same resolution, but different refresh rates.  CPS-3 will be the most sensitive to this.  If you're playing something like 3rd Strike, which used CD sound (in the CHD files in MAME), refresh rate will have be matched very closely to avoid audio skipping.  The skipping is caused when the audio is running at different speed than the video.

Note that to really get things running perfectly, you should be matching the refresh rate you're outputting to the original refresh rate of the game.

Right click a game and select "Properties" to see the game's native resolution and refresh rate, listed as "screen."

tmnt.c games (which includes Sunset Riders, nice!) are 304x224, so they can be run in either 304x240 or 320x240.  See which one you can better geometry out of.  You could also try your luck at getting exactly 304x224 to work in Powerstrip, but these Sony's seem to like staying at 240 lines.

Finally, one very important final note.  You will find that you can't actually get every singe arcade resolution running.  You don't have to, you just need something close, but a bit larger.

After setting MAME up to use directdraw with hardware stretch off, trying running a CPS-2 game in 640x480 (480i if you're on the TV).  You should see that the native res is being displayed in the center with a lot of black pixels around the sides to fill out the rest of the resolution.  This is very useful.  (You may not see this if the display resolution is double or more the native, it may still stretch)

I can't get the CPS-2's 384x224 working on my setup.  What I do is run it in 392x240, which works very nicely.  I adjust the geometry of this resolution so the black letterbox is outside the physical viewing area of the TV.  The result is that I'm seeing the game on the TV in perfect native res.  Each original pixel is reproduced 1 for 1.  It just happens that there are extra black pixels around the sides, but I can't see them.

Similarly, I run NEO-GEO games (320x224) in 320x240.

-

How's powerstrip working?  Time to start practicing with geometry and refresh rate.  Be sure save the initial settings of working resolutions before you start experimenting.  Saving them as shortcuts works well.

Geometry changes in Powerstrip will alter the refresh rate.  Set your geometry first and then tweak the refresh rate.  This can be done without affecting geometry by adjusting vertical front porch.  I think, it might be back porch.  Anyway, I haven't worked on this in a few months, it's one of those and it could vary depending on your display.

As you're adjusting things, the screen may start warping, then flickering, then just freaking out.  This is because you're reaching the limits of what horizontal or vertical scan rates the TV can display.  Learn what values can adjust scan rates without affecting geometry.  Then, when your geometry seems to reach its limit, use that value to bring the scan rate back in line, and then you may be able to push the geometry a little further.

When you start messing with a resolution, take note of what the original values were in case you need to go back.

In advanced timing options, you can right click on the little icon just to right to of the cancel button to create a desktop shortcut to the current settings.

When you get good enough with Powerstrip, you can move around the numeric values with tab and shift-tab and adjust with the arrow keys to adjust blindly.  This can be used to tune in some resolutions that don't seem to work at first.  If you want to try this, it's very helpful to have a firm grasp of what all the values mean.  Try starting with a resolution from Soft15kHz that looks like it just barely doesn't work.

Now, you may notice that you might need two different versions of the same resolution so you can have different geometry or refresh rates for different games.  You'll have to either make compromises, or get into GroovyMAME or AdvanceMAME to deal with this.  I might be coding this into my custom Front-End but that is a long way off.

***If anyone has any tricks for two timings of the same resolution in Powerstrip, speak up!***

If you read the way the shortcuts work, it looks like you may be able to control Powerstrip through the command prompt, but I haven't played with this yet.

Example: "C:\Program Files\PowerStrip\PStrip.exe" /t:1280,54,136,130,720,33,3,25,59921,336

Also, you can use MAME's slider controls (press TAB in game, go down to slider controls) to adjust the picture a little for individual games.  ONLY use the position controls, as the stretch controls will ruin your native res.  Leave these at 1.00.

[notbillcosby]

I definitely just added the .txt extension so it would upload. Looks like I've got some work to do! Sometime in the next couple nights I'll be able to dig into things, I"ll let you know how it goes! Thanks again for all the help!

[rCadeGaming]

Cool, no prob.

Forgot to add this about Mortal Kombat.  It looked bad to you because it sounds like it was running in 320x240, which is much too small. 

MAME lists MK1-3 as 399x253, and 4 as 400x256.  Strangely it lists refresh rate for 1 and 2 as around 27Hz, while 3 and are a more normal 54Hz and 57Hz.  For 1 and 2, you'll have to try and match exactly double the refresh rate.  This is always the way to go when the actual rate isn't feasible.  The TV is designed for 60Hz NTSC signals, so 54Hz might be doable, 27Hz is not.

Soft15kHz comes with a resolution of 400x256@53Hz (might first appear as 401x256@60Hz or something like that), which looks like it was designed for this.  This will be the best starting point for all the MK's, with the right refresh rate tweaking.

Full disclosure: I've personally worked with the cps2.c, cps3.c, neodrv.c, and tmnt.c games, so the advice there comes from experience.  However, I haven't done anything with the MK hardwares (they run on different ones, hence the res and refresh differences), so it is technically speculation.

-

I think I should clarify that when I say matching original refresh rate, I mean VERY closely; to within one degree of change in powerstrip.  When tweaked right, you can get it within two or three decimal places.

When running MAME the way we are, the speed of the game is set directly by the refresh rate, so the correct rate is required to run the game at the original speed.  The most noticeable symptoms that will let you know that your refresh rate isn't matched closely enough are screen tearing and audio skipping/stuttering.

[nadcraker]

Hey guys,

Been following this thread with much interest.  How does this TV compare to the Sonys you've been talking about?

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/3276730190.html

[rCadeGaming]

That IS the tv's we're talking about.  If you want a 24" Sony that's it.  You could also get a 20, or 27, there's 32 and up but I think they're too big (and HEAVY).

Unfortunately, that's a ridiculous price.  You should be looking to spend 0-$50.  I've picked up about a dozen different sets for testing so far and half of them were free, most expensive were $50.  People throw these things out all time when getting an LCD.

[nadcraker]

Would you mind selling me one, then?

 

[rCadeGaming]

Haha, I've already given away most of the ones I don't want.  I do have two in the garage I haven't tested yet, so maybe I'll have some more extras soon.  There's no pointing in trying to ship one of these things, so you'll have to come to southeastern PA if you want one.  Are you close?

[nadcraker]

Alright, so today I picked up a 27" KV-27fs100 for $30. I'll be following all of the great advice in this thread shortly. Can't wait!

[rCadeGaming]

Nice.  Post your results.  How about some pictures from those who have this working?

-

I think I should probably mention at this point that the service menu is very useful and easy to use on these Sony's.

To get into it, turn the TV off and press display, 5, volume +, power, all on the remote (press those buttons one at a time in order, not all at once).  It will turn on in the service menu.  Basically there is a variable at the top left, and a value next to it.  Cycle through the variables with 1 and 4 on the remote, and change them with 3 and 6.  When you're done adjusting, be sure to press mute then enter to save your settings to memory.  Then turn off the TV to exit the service menu. 

It seems like the settings will be retained for a while even if you don't save them to memory, but they'll be lost if the TV is unplugged.  Saving to memory will prevent this.

The useful variable names are pretty self explanatory, HSIZ = horizontal size, UPIN = upper pincushion, SCON = contrast, etc.  If you don't know what something is adjust it a little and see what changes BUT be sure to make note of what the default was.  I type up an excel sheet of what the values are before screwing with anything.

The variables are grouped into categories, the first one, DEF, which is usually the first 31 variables, contains all the variables needed to change geometry.  Skip over the 16:9 category (geometry when the TV is set to 16:9 letterbox mode), and go to the VP1 category for all the adjustments for color, contrast, brightness, etc.  There are hundreds more variables beyond this, but they don't need to be modified.

You can find service manuals for specific models in PDF form on the net.  DO NOT try using the instructions in them to reset the service menu settings to "factory defaults" or anything like that.  I bricked a set this way.  It set something to a value that caused nothing to display but the service menu, and couldn't figure out which of the hundreds of variable to change to fix it.  It was after this that I started making excel spreadsheets to record the settings that the TV was WORKING with when I got it.

[Yenome]

i got here from a diff thread. I have a rgb breakout cable for my 8500gt. the 8500gt has a 7pin svideo plug on it. still need ot check and see if its supported by soft15. i was wondering if using this would give me any indication of it being able to work. before i spend the money for a transcoder. i also happen to have a averkey imicro model:koc3 but i cant seem to find any info on if it upscales or not.

[rCadeGaming]

First, confirm whether or not your graphics card is listed as supported by Soft15kHz.

This is the closest thing I could find to info on that "averkey imicro model:koc3":

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=448341&CatId=1430

Is this what yours is?  If so, it's almost certainly not useful for this.  From what I can see here it has digital picture controls, which would mean its doing some digital scaling.  It doesn't have a component output anyway, but really none of the outputs are useful after it's ruined your native resolution.

What do you mean by RGB breakout cable?  VGA to SCART?  VGA to BNC?

RGB is not necessarily SCART and SCART is not necessarily RGB.  VGA is already RGB, RGBHV to be precise.  Details on all this stuff are in this thread.

Does your tv have a SCART input?  If it does, you don't need a transcoder.  A graphics card's VGA output can be connected straight into a tv's SCART input, if it's wired correctly and you're outputting the right resolutions.

You already have the TV.  Even if your card's not compatible with Soft15kHz you can get one that is for $20.  If you want real 15kHz arcade quality picture on your TV it comes down to whether you want to spend the money on a transcoder and more importantly if you want to put the time in to learn everything you need to know to get it working.

[notbillcosby]

Just wanted to drop in real quick... I've been extremely busy lately, but did manage to get my MAMEUI recompiled with the hiscore.diff patch which is SO AWESOME, I can't express how happy I am that I can save Ms. Pacman scores from day to day! I finally got Powerstrip to let me into the Advanced Timing Options, and just spent a few seconds the other day tweaking my resolution to get as much of Windows to display on my TV as possible! I couldn't quite get 480i to squeeze everythign in vertically (Couldn't see both the taskbar and the title bar(?) on a maximized window simultaneously) so I am running at a slightly lower res in windows, but it all fits! Now I get to start going through game-by-game. Thanks for all your help getting me this far... I feel like I'm on the home stretch!

One quick question; How do I know what resolution each game/hardware is supposed to be running at? I'm sure it's listed somewhere in MAME, I'm just not sure how to find it now that there's no nag screen when I fire up a game.

[rCadeGaming]

Right click a game and select "Properties" to see the game's native resolution and refresh rate, listed as "screen."

The listing there is usually exactly right, but I have seen rare instances where it lists the resolution as exactly double what it natively really is (I think Puyo Puyo sun for example).  So some games really do run around 640x480, which you should run at or around 640x480i, but just take those listings with a grain of salt.  Check if it looks better at half that resolution.

Try getting into the service menu if you need more space on the screen.  Just remember that changes there will affect all resolutions, so test it with a variety of things and set it to a happy medium.

That's awesome that you've made so much progress.  Please post some pics of your setup when you've got a game running the way you like it.  Do you have a project thread?

[notbillcosby]

Home on a lunch break - Duh, I found the resolution listings in about 3 seconds once I looked. This is why I shouldn't post questions I think of when I'm at work

So, I'm trying to get Ms. Pacman set up first. It lists the resolution as 224x288, which does not show up in the list of resolution options when I go to the screen settings for pacman.c. Remembering what you said before as best I could, I set it to the next highest resolution that should work (in my mind, at least) which was 256x288. What all do I need selected in the screen properties to make this work out right? I have:

Number of Screens: 1
Screen: \DISPLAY1
Autoselect aspect- not selected
View- auto
Screennumber: Screen 0
Resolution:
   Size: 256x288
   Refresh: Auto (automatically changes to Auto when I select a resolution. Resolution changes to Auto if I set a refresh rate.
Switch resolutions to fit: Selected

If I uncheck that last box, the screen is tiny in the middle of my monitor. If it's checked, it stretches out and constantly scrolls vertically. I'm sure it's something simple, or maybe I misunderstood stuff about how to set the res. There's a real good chance you've already answered this above, but it was faster to type this out than to read through miles of posts and I'm on tight time right now. If you've already answered, I'm sorry and I'll do my reading when I have the time!!

And no, I don't have a project thread started yet. I really should, but there's not a lot of exciting stuff going on right now, just this piddly crap that I have to get out of the way before the fun parts really start!

[rCadeGaming]

Home on a lunch break - Duh, I found the resolution listings in about 3 seconds once I looked. This is why I shouldn't post questions I think of when I'm at work

So, I'm trying to get Ms. Pacman set up first. It lists the resolution as 224x288, which does not show up in the list of resolution options when I go to the screen settings for pacman.c. Remembering what you said before as best I could, I set it to the next highest resolution that should work (in my mind, at least) which was 256x288.

Yup, so far you're correct, and the list of resolutions there is all the ones you have setup so far.  So if you haven't added any custom ones they're the ones added by Soft15kHz.  Note that this is a vertical game though, so the x and y values are swapped.  You can go work on that resolution in Powerstrip, but it will be listed as 288x256 there.  If you don't like the geometry of Ms. Pac-Man running in "256x288," you can try adding a custom resolution in Powerstrip.  288x240 might be a good one to try first, and it would leave less black space around the sides to adjust out.

What all do I need selected in the screen properties to make this work out right? I have:

Number of Screens: 1
Screen: \DISPLAY1
Autoselect aspect- not selected
View- auto
Screennumber: Screen 0
Resolution:
   Size: 256x288
   Refresh: Auto (automatically changes to Auto when I select a resolution. Resolution changes to Auto if I set a refresh rate.
Switch resolutions to fit: Selected

If I uncheck that last box, the screen is tiny in the middle of my monitor. If it's checked, it stretches out and constantly scrolls vertically.

Just leave it refresh on auto, it will run at what you set it to in Powerstrip.  You have to check switch resolutions or it will just run at whatever your desktop is.

Everything is perfect, except for one glaring problem which is causing the issue you're describing at the end.  The problem is that Ms. Pac-Man is a vertical game.  It's meant to be played on a vertically oriented monitor, that's why the resolutions is listed as 224 pixels "wide" by 288 pixels "tall".  You're trying to run it rotated to fit on a horizontal monitor.   You're trying to fit a game that's 224 pixels wide in a width of 288 pixels, causing the stretching out; and 288 pixels tall in a height of 256, which is not enough room, causing the scrolling.

Start the game, push tab, go down to video, and rotate the game to the correct orientation.  It should be running properly but it will be on its side.

You can't display vertical games in native resolution on a 15kHz TV or monitor unless it's oriented vertically.  This is because the game is already using about all the resolution the display is capable of in progressive, around 320x240 pixels.  To rotate the screen, maintain the full resolution of the game, AND add black bars on the sides requires more resolution that isn't available in progressive.  To get this extra resolution, you'll have to run these rotated games upscaled in 640x480 interlaced (or something close to that, depending on the game).  It's not optimal, but it's a necessary solution to play both types of games in the same cabinet.  This is why I'm building two cabs, one horizontal and one vertical.

In the shmups community running a vertically orientated game on a horizontally oriented monitor with letterboxing is called Yoko mode or Yoko-tate.  You won't be able to run them in native resolutions but all the important qualities and functions of tweaking refresh rate still applies.

I'd work on a horizontal game first so you can apply all the stuff we've been talking about.

[rCadeGaming]

You're working on a Sunday?

[notbillcosby]

Yes I am! I'm a musician; I fix guitars 40 hours a week at a store in town, and play in 3 bands and record others in my "spare" time. My days at work are the 5 days of the week that i'm not occupied with gigs or recording or whatnot... This week, that's a Sunday!

Anyway, I forgot about the vertical resolution limit that'd keep it from showing 288 pixels in progressive. Duh! I'm not super torn up about old vertical games not showing at the perfect resolution because I know I'll have to make a sacrifice somewhere, and I definitely can't have two cabinets in my house. Is there a good way to display vertical games in progressive still and make them look as decent as possible and as tall as the screen is? Do I just math my way through reducing the resolution proportionately so the vertical is 240? Or maybe I have to use 480i and have it stretch as much as possible.

I'll work on TMNT and/or Simpsons first I suppose. I still want to get pacman going though!

[rCadeGaming]

That's awesome.  I kind of play guitar and a little piano, but I don't get enough practice to call myself a musician.  My biggest influences are the blues, classic rock, Pink Floyd, and my recent favorite which is steering me into jazz, Steely Dan/Donald Fagen.  I guess if you fix guitars you already have more than enough soldering and circuitry experience for this arcade stuff.

Anyhow, MAME's output of "288x256" IS displaying correctly because it's really putting out 288x256, you just need to rotate the game with the tab menu so it will fit.  As for running a game in Yoko and in native resolution, you'd need to run "224x288" at about 398x288 (224 * (4/3)^2 =  ~398) to fit the full game resolution plus the letterbox, which would require a 24kHz monitor.

Trying to do this in a progressive resolution probably won't work too well because downscaling 288 lines to 240 will result in too much information lost.  Things will be missing. 

Your best bet is 640x480i.  There won't really be any visible scanlines at that res, so maybe you can trying playing with the new HLSL filters and stuff in the latest MAME releases.  They won't be as good as the real scanlines in your real native res games, but could help with your Yoko games.

Remember to work with whole hardware drivers at a time, getting the resolution and geometry right for tmnt.c will give you both turtles games and Sunset Riders.  You'll have to check if they all use the same refresh rate.

[notbillcosby]

The resolution option I have available in MAME is actually 256x288, not the other way around (though I think I have that too, but cant' check right now). I'll try some 480i goodness and see what I can make happen. It's gonna have to be done Yoko style for sure, which was what I was expecting. As long as it looks 'pretty damn close' i should be OK with it... Heck, I didn't even expect to get things this specifically close until I started this thread! A mere 2 (or god, has it been 3?) months ago I was expecting to use the S-Video out into an RCA input on any old TV I found. What a fool I was!

I have no idea what Sunset Riders is, but since you've brought it up twice, it must be good! I had limited arcade experience growing up, but was just the right age to play TMNT and Simpsons at every arcade arcade and pizza place I was able to find. The past few months have been eye opening, as I've discovered a bunch of oldschool games that I never had the opportunity to play growing up. I never cared for Pac Man until about January, and now I'm completely obsessed. I never even had the chance to play Defender until just a few months ago! The fun of so many old games were completely lost on me. For years I had planned on buying a TMNT cabinet to capture some wonderful moment from my youth, but the past year has made a MAME cabinet so much more appealing. Plus, I will have spent a tiny fraction of what a TMNT cab would cost building the beast that will be proudly sitting in my basement or recording studio for years to come, and the learning experience and building aspect has been wonderful and enlightening in ways that buying a completed cabinet could never be. I really need to start a project build thread so I can show off all of the MacGyver-y things I've done to my cabinet so far, to get it functional and looking nice by using old crap I had sitting around my workshop!

[Yenome]

my 8500gt has a 7pin tv out. Im not sure where i picked up the breakout cable but it splits the tv out to rgb hook up. like the one in the link but instead of the vga plug it has a 7pin svideo plug on it.  i use it to hook the pc to the tv. i didnt get a chance earlier to check the supported list but i think i did before and found the 8500gt on the supported list ill have to check again.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5619985&csid=_61

yea i have no problem with learning everything i need to learn to get the best picture possible short of buying an arcade monitor. I dont mind spending round 200 for everything i need to get it all setup. but just cant justify spending 500 or more for a 32in arcade multi sync. my plans is to build a showcase cab and add lil things here and there like light guns.

Seems i had a compatible card looking me right in the face. i have a 7300gs pci-e sitting on my desk right by my monitor.

[rCadeGaming]

The resolution option I have available in MAME is actually 256x288, not the other way around...

Sorry, this:

Anyhow, MAME's output of "288x256" IS displaying correctly...

is a typo, it should read:

Anyhow, MAME's output of "256x288" IS displaying correctly because it's really putting out 288x256, you just need to rotate the game with the tab menu so it will fit.

See what I mean?  Everything's already set up correctly for a vertical monitor.  Before you make changes, try adjusting the rotation with the TAB menu to check.  I edited that post now to fix the mistake.

A mere 2 (or god, has it been 3?) months ago I was expecting to use the S-Video out into an RCA input on any old TV I found. What a fool I was!

I was completely ignorant to all of this stuff a few years ago.  I was going to put a computer monitor in a recycled shelving unit with X-arcade controls.  A prime candidate for CRAPMAME.  btw, what are you using for controls?  After learning about Sanwa sticks and buttons, and ergonomic curved button layouts, I had the same "what was I thinking" feeling about American controls and straight button layouts.

That's kind of an inspiring back story there.  You should put that in your project thread.

I also had limited arcade experience as a kid.  My memories of Turtles in Time are from the Super Nintendo version.  I've always been a gamer, but I discovered arcade games through MAME in college a few years ago, and the arcade influence has refined my gaming taste significantly.  Although I still like adventure games, like Zelda or Landstalker, and JRPG's, like Final Fantasy or Suikoden, I focused my interest a lot more on "physically complex and challenging games;" 2D fighters like Street Fighter and Blazblue, shmups like R-Type and Dodonpachi, and 2D platformers like Castlevania IV and Rocket Knight Adventures.

Obviously the arcade version of the original TMNT is the best out of any console, but as for Turtles in Time did you know the SNES version has extra levels and bosses and things like that?  If you only have one or two players, it could be considering the better version, but for three of four you need the arcade.  I'll just support both on my cab 

my 8500gt has a 7pin tv out. Im not sure where i picked up the breakout cable but it splits the tv out to rgb hook up. like the one in the link but instead of the vga plug it has a 7pin svideo plug on it.  i use it to hook the pc to the tv.

...

Seems i had a compatible card looking me right in the face. i have a 7300gs pci-e sitting on my desk right by my monitor.

Yeah, I'm still a little confused about this "RGB" breakout cable, you're plugging this straight to the TV?  You said the TV has component input.  Component and RGB are equivalent in quality, but communicate colorspace differently, you can't plug one into the other.  You'll get a discolored picture at best.  Unless you live in, or imported a TV from Europe, I'm going to say that's not an RGB cable, you're getting component out of that port.

I would guess that you can't get progressive 15kHz out of that port, but you should test it out with Soft15kHz to be sure.  If you can you don't need the transcoder.  If you can't, then yes the PCI-e GeForce 7300GS will work great with a transcoder, that's exactly what I'm using.

[Yenome]

yea your right i keep calling it rgb when its component. i used it before to hook up to the 27 in hd tv i had. i just use a reg rca cord as i dont have a color coded one but its not hard to make sure i use the same plug on both ends for the same color. ill have to try it and see what i get ya.

[Yenome]

i switched my os to win xp just for this fun stuff. Dont think i did the whole tv setup right. i finally got it working in 480i tho the tv keeps saying its 720x480 when im sure its only 640x480. I installed the soft15 but it only installed it for the dvi/vga port and wont even let me try with the tv out port. i tried the newest forceware drivers that worked with my 8500 gt might try just new drivers in general

[rCadeGaming]

Did you find that card on the Soft15kHz compatibility list?  It will often mention which drivers are recommended.

Generally, you have to install all drivers before installing Soft15kHz or you will not have the best results.  If you didn't do so you need to uninstall everything and start over.  Bill Cosby had to use a driver sweeper program recommended by a talking octopus to get everything cleaned out before it would work.  Did you read the whole thread yet?  It's all in there.

[notbillcosby]

Getting TMNT to run at 304x224 was as simple as selecting it from the list. Of course, it needs to be slid to the right and down a little, but of course power trip freaks out when I change any of the advanced timing options on that resolution. Gah!

[rCadeGaming]

Getting TMNT to run at 304x224 was as simple as selecting it from the list.

According to this, that's not one of the defaults installed with Soft15kHz:

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Custom_display_modes_(Windows)_-_Soft-15khz

Is that out of date, or did you add a custom res, or did you use 304x240 or 320x240?

Of course, it needs to be slid to the right and down a little, but of course power trip freaks out when I change any of the advanced timing options on that resolution. Gah!

Keep working on playing with the numeric values.  It's freaking out because something's already near its limit, probably the horizontal or vertical scan frequency.  You need to find the right adjustment reign the problem value in and get some more flexibility on the other values.

That being said there are some resolutions that seem to have a narrower usable range of values than others.  I didn't play too much with 304x224 games as I was working on NEO GEO and CPS-2 and a few other things first, but I think I did look at TMNT briefly.  If I remember correctly, I had better results with 320x240 than 304x240.

Also don't forget to check out the TV's service menu, and don't forget about this:

Also, you can use MAME's slider controls (press TAB in game, go down to slider controls) to adjust the picture up/down/left/right a little for individual games.  ONLY use the position controls, as the stretch controls will ruin your native res.  Leave these at 1.00.

[notbillcosby]

I definitely selected 304x224 with the slider in Powerstrip... But I added the "MinLines=200" line into the .ini file. I did try using 320x224 and 320x240, and they all freak out when I click any arrow for any of the values. I decided to take that line out of the .ini file and noticed that there were no resolutions with a second value lower than 448... which meant all the resolutions available were interlaced. QuickRes still has (and has always had) a huge ton of resolutions available, including 304x224, and they can be selected and changed to for the most part... but of course I can't really do anything with them. Ugh. Did Powerstrip get installed weirdly? Is it because I'm using those modified drivers or something? I just wanna get my resolutions set up!

[Yenome]

so after reinstalling the os and going with 64bit i found some good drivers and got the tv back to 640x480. but as was expected dont have controllable component out so ill be looking round for a transcoder now. in the mean time im just back to getting the software side of things in order again. still fun to play on this 32in monster.

[rCadeGaming]

I definitely selected 304x224 with the slider in Powerstrip... But I added the "MinLines=200" line into the .ini file. I did try using 320x224 and 320x240, and they all freak out when I click any arrow for any of the values. I decided to take that line out of the .ini file and noticed that there were no resolutions with a second value lower than 448... which meant all the resolutions available were interlaced.

I don't know why you have to add that minlines=200, I didn't, but it sounds like things aren't working you without it.

Yes, any res with vertical lines closer to 480 than 240 are interlaced if they work with our 15kHz, TV's.  Btw, you can see for sure if you're running interlaced, by going into advanced timing options and seeing if the interlace check box is checked (as well as being able to see the obvious lack of scan lines).

QuickRes still has (and has always had) a huge ton of resolutions available, including 304x224, and they can be selected and changed to for the most part... but of course I can't really do anything with them. Ugh. Did Powerstrip get installed weirdly? Is it because I'm using those modified drivers or something? I just wanna get my resolutions set up!

I don't know where you're getting all of these other resolutions, these should be the only ones installed with Soft15kHz:

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Custom_display_modes_(Windows)_-_Soft-15khz

The rest must be coming from the modded drivers and/or quickres.

Speaking of which, when did you install quickres?  You should have mentioned that much earlier.  That could have jacked up some of the resolution timings set by powerstrip, and I don't about how it affects adjustments in powerstrip.  You might not have to reinstall things again, just find the default timings that Soft15kHz provides and check your current timings of the resolutions you're working with in Powerstrip.

I would say, especially if any one else is reading this NOT to install quickres because of potential problems like this.  I don't see the use for it.  The only time you need to change resolutions is in MAME and when working in powerstrip, neither of which have a problem with switching resolutions on their own.

[notbillcosby]

Quickres shows up after installing the modded drivers. Maybe I'll try uninstalling it and see what happens.  Man, I can't believe that it freaks out even with 320X240. I just wanna play!

[rCadeGaming]

I was worried you installed Quickres after Soft15kHz.  You did install the modded drivers before Soft15kHz right?  If Soft15kHz was the most recent thing you installed (besides Powerstrip), it's resolution timings should be the ones in place now (installing Powerstrip shouldn't change timings on existing resolutions).

Uninstalling Quickres probably will just remove the program itself, if it changed your timings it won't revert them at this point.  Again you need to manually check your timings against the Soft15kHz defaults.

On my setup, 320x240 was rock solid from the default, and was very flexible for adjustments.  Something that occured to me is that part of this inflexibility with different timings could be coming from that RCA transcoder you're using. 

[notbillcosby]

Hey TalkingOctopus, are you still reading this thread?

I was looking back through earlier pages, and re-read your post about your monitor freaking out any time you'd try to adjust a timing option for a 240p resolution, and how you could eventually get it centered but it wasn't wide enough. This is the exact problem I'm in the middle of trying to figure out. Reading further into the thread, it sounded like you had gotten your monitor working out alright, but you never said how! Can you shed some light for me? I'm so damn close!

[notbillcosby]

Wait a second!

I found a wiki page somewhere that had a bunch of custom resolution settings listed for Powerstrip, to be copied and pasted into the INI file. It actually got a lot of stuff working for me and I got my favorites list of games set up in resolutions that all look good! They all overscan too much though, and everything is slid off to the left a little too much. Since the Powerstrip timing arrows still make the screen freak out a lot of the time and I can't get things to shrink down enough through there to all fit on the screen, I'm thinking it's probably geometry settings on the tv itself that need to be tweaked at this point. I didn't get a remote with the TV when I bought it off Craigslist, and I bought a few different universal remotes to try with it to see if i could get it to start up in the service menu, with no such luck. Damnit! rCadeGaming, got an extra remote I could buy off of you?   I'd be happy to pay for shipping!

[rCadeGaming]

I found a wiki page somewhere that had a bunch of custom resolution settings listed for Powerstrip, to be copied and pasted into the INI file. It actually got a lot of stuff working for me and I got my favorites list of games set up in resolutions that all look good!

Sounds like these values were more compatible with your particular setup than the Soft15kHz defaults, or your custom driver defaults, whichever was in effect.  That sounds useful, can you post a link?

Since the Powerstrip timing arrows still make the screen freak out a lot of the time...

Seriously man, FORGET THE ARROWS!  They will not give nearly as much flexibility as tweaking the numerical settings individually and getting an understanding of exactly what each does.  Sorry, I feel I've repeated this several times...

...I can't get things to shrink down enough through there to all fit on the screen, I'm thinking it's probably geometry settings on the tv itself that need to be tweaked at this point.

Yeah, it will be good to get into the service menu to correct things that are common problems among all your resolutions.  Just keep in mind that you will still have specific problems unique to individual resolutions, so you'll have to figure out Powerstrip.  Again, service menu changes will apply to EVERYTHING.

Do you plan on running anything besides the PC on this TV?  Since I'm using consoles as well (and their resolutions can't be tweaked), I set the TV to what's good for the consoles, and adjust the PC to fit the TV, not the other way around.  If you're just using the PC you won't have to worry about this.

BE SURE READ MY PRECAUTIONS ABOUT THE SERVICE MENU ABOVE.

I didn't get a remote with the TV when I bought it off Craigslist, and I bought a few different universal remotes to try with it to see if i could get it to start up in the service menu, with no such luck. Damnit! rCadeGaming, got an extra remote I could buy off of you?   I'd be happy to pay for shipping!

Unfortunately, getting to the post office is a pain in the ass for me.  I'm normally at work or at school during normal business hours.  Not that I wouldn't go out of my way for you, it's just that it's not necessary because you can get one off of eBay for about the same cost.

These seem to be the cheapest, and they're pretty compact.  I don't they came with our TV's, but I picked one up randomly and it works fine for everything on my sets, including the service menu.  It will most likely work with yours too:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-TV-REMOTE-SPARE-RM-Y173-TUBE-CRT-Remote-Control-/321002413410?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item4abd3c1d62

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-TV-REMOTE-CONTROL-UNIT-MODEL-RM-Y173-/221092291187?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item337a20a273

These are the actual ones that came with our TV's, they're more expensive and about twice as big though:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-TV-RM-Y180-WEGA-REMOTE-CONTROL-WITH-BATTERY-COVER-ORIGINAL-SHIPS-FREE-/321002487865?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item4abd3d4039

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-RM-Y180-Remote-Control-Used-Sony-TV-Remote-Control-/221126538994?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item337c2b36f2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-TV-REMOTE-CONTROL-UNIT-MODEL-RM-Y180-/320957728648?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item4aba924788

[notbillcosby]

Sounds like these values were more compatible with your particular setup than the Soft15kHz defaults, or your custom driver defaults, whichever was in effect.  That sounds useful, can you post a link?

Of course! I'll get it up here later once I'm on my other comptuer, hopefully I still have the page up...

Seriously man, FORGET THE ARROWS!  <snip>  Sorry, I feel I've repeated this several times...

Easy, easy! I'm talking about the arrows next to the numeric values that scroll through the numbers. I figured you meant the big blue movement arrows on the left, not the ones that changed the numeric values. Maybe I'm way off.

I'll do some Ebay shopping tonight. Man, I just really wish I could get this universal remote to work. Earlier you said you press down Power, Display, Volume Up, and 5 all at the same time to turn on the set, right? Did I misunderstand that? My remote doesn't seem to know how to deal with 4 buttons at once, I don't think.

This tv is running stuff off the PC exclusively. And it's gonna look awesome when it's all done!

[rCadeGaming]

Easy, easy! I'm talking about the arrows next to the numeric values that scroll through the numbers. I figured you meant the big blue movement arrows on the left, not the ones that changed the numeric values. Maybe I'm way off.

Haha, no you're right.  Many apologies.

Earlier you said you press down Power, Display, Volume Up, and 5 all at the same time to turn on the set, right?

No, you press them in sequence, not all at once.  Press down power, release, display, release, etc., etc.  Just do it fairly quickly, maybe 2 to 5 seconds total.

That's my fault, I looked at my post about that and I didn't make that clear at all.  Post edited.

[notbillcosby]

sweet! gotta go try it...

[notbillcosby]

To get into it, turn the TV off and press display, 5, volume +, power, all on the remote.

In that order?

[rCadeGaming]

Yup, that order.  If it doesn't work, the universal remote probably isn't sending the right code for the display button.  5, vol+, and power are pretty standard.

Service menu tips in reply #81 of this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1303996.html#msg1303996

HEED THE WARNING AT THE BOTTOM!

[notbillcosby]

Awesome, got it to work. Looks like I've got something to do later tonight!

[rCadeGaming]

Nice.

In addition to geometry, you can also fix your color up.

From another thread:

Just because the color looks good now doesn't mean that it can't be improved with $3 worth of trimmer pots.  These will let you individually tweak the brightness of red green and blue on the fly.  You might not know the optimum picture until you see it.

This kind of old analog hardware rarely put out perfectly balanced color levels.  For example the Super Nintendo (mine at least, could vary between systems, and TVs especially) looks decent at first; but when you get into it, you realize that the blue is a little stronger than the green, and the red is way stronger than either of them.

One good way to measure color brightness is to look at the width of the scanlines (the black spaces in between the colored lines) around different colors.  The scanlines in areas that are supposed to be pure bright green should be the same width as the scanlines in pure bright red.  Using a test pattern for this is best, but not always possible. 

On the SNES, the letters on the Mario World title screen are a good reference as they are large areas of pure red, green, and blue.  In my case, the scanlines between green were huge, the ones between red were almost non-existent, and the ones between blue were in the middle.  This indicated that green was weak and red was way too strong.  I left the pot for green all way up, turned down blue a tiny bit, and turned down red a lot.

Just be sure you're not using color areas for reference that are supposed to be mixed or dimmer colors, and keep an eye on the overall tint and where you want it as well.

Is this a little over the top?  Well yeah, and the difference isn't night and day; but I do think it's worth spare change in parts.  It's noticeable once you know what you're looking for, and it's fun to adjust.

I was talking about putting adjustable potentiometers on the red, green, and blue signal wires to adjust the color levels.  You could do this to the VGA cable coming out of the computer, but in your case it would be easier to adjust the red, green, and blue drive in the service menu.  Same method of measuring color levels applies, just be sure to compare scanlines in a progressive resolution, they're not noticable enough in interlaced on these TV's.

A good set of test patterns will be extremely useful for geometry and color/brightness/contrast.  Google "nokia monitor test," it's great.  You can find similar patterns in a lot arcade service menus through MAME as well.

[notbillcosby]

You're a champ! Thanks!

[notbillcosby]

I'm working on finding a comfortable medium between TV adjustments and Powerstrip adjustments. I still can't do anything to the timing options on progressive scan stuff, which is frustrating, but I think I'll probably try to get my geometry looking right at 320x240, then use Powerstrip to try to adjust the interlaced stuff accordingly. Fingers crossed! It's super late tonight though... Hopefully I can try again tomorrow.

[rCadeGaming]

Don't forget about MAME's slider controls.  Use the position sliders, not the stretch.

[notbillcosby]

Don't forget about MAME's slider controls.  Use the position sliders, not the stretch.

I have yet to see those controls... Are they maybe only in certain versions of MAME? Also, are they game or resolution specific, or just for everything?

[rCadeGaming]

Should be there for everything.  Press tab during gameplay.  I'm using MAME 132 right now (I have the updates romsets up to 140-something, just haven't had time to update), so if you have that or newer, you should see them.

[notbillcosby]

Ugh. I have .122 and don't seem to have slider controls. MAN I would like to see if those help! I'm horrified at the idea of upgrading because all of my roms work at the speed they're supposed to! Is there a way to adjust this stuff in earlier MAMEs? I'll do some Googlin'.

[rCadeGaming]

Not sure about earlier MAME versions.  You should check what versions have to the slider controls, I don't know when they were implemented or if they're still in the newest version.  You shouldn't have much problem using your current ini files with your settings with newer versions, might just need to update mame.ini a bit for new/changed features.

[notbillcosby]

What's the name of the menu option, so I can search for it in MAME whatsnew txt files? I've searched for all the terms I could think of in the whatsnews from 122 to 132 with no such luck! Google has been no help. Maybe I should just figure out how to update my romset and remember how to compile with the hiscore.def and all that crap and just get the most recent version. Yeah... probably should.

[rCadeGaming]

Ok, I finally got onto my MAME PC and confirmed some things.

I'm finding these slider controls in the official MAMEUI v0.132, the only thing I changed about it was to compile using hiscore.diff.

The slider controls are found in the in-game config menu, which is accessed by pressing the key that is assigned to "config menu" in the button config.  It is the TAB key by default, at least in 132 and every other version I've used.

Pressing TAB in-game opens the familiar menu with "Input (general), Input (this game), DIP switches," etc.  Slider Controls should be the sixth one down. 

Opening it gives access to control for volume, contrast, brightness, gamma, vertical and horizontal position, and vertical and horizontal stretch.  The volume control is good for lowering it on certain games where the volume is too loud compared to others, like Third Strike, and the position controls are of course quite handy.  Don't touch the stretch controls as they'll screw up your native resolution royally.  The contrast, brightness, and gamma controls are not very good either; you'll get a much better result adjusting these on the monitor.

[adder]

and if you didnt know already, when you enable cheats in mame you get an overclock option added in the slider controls menu, so you can overclock the cpu of games which suffered from slowdown at the arcades (eg. double dragon, metal slug) and instead play them at a smoother rate

[rCadeGaming]

I've never looked into that, sounds like I should check it out.  How does this affect vsync?

[adder]

I've never looked into that, sounds like I should check it out.  How does this affect vsync?

it doesnt affect vsync, all it does is overclock the cpu of the game in question, so for example in double dragon it 'gives' that game a more powerful processor, ie. when the original double dragon cpu was overworked at the arcade (when lots of sprites are on screen) it couldnt cope and the gameplay slowed down, but now with the overclocking feature it can keep up with the workload and stay smooth

[rCadeGaming]

Question from another thread:

hi rcadegaming no doubt you have really researched your hobby, can you confirm that if you use a regular tv are you only going to get smooth gameplay with games which run at exactly 60hz (or 50hz also if your tv handles 50hz and 60hz), and so if you try running a game such as rtype (a 55hz game) this will not run smooth on a regular tv? or are you saying there is a method using soft15khz/powerstrip to overcome this problem?
ps. i am aware of using a version of mame such as mameuifx* to force ALL games to run in 60hz, which is one way of overcoming the problem of a regular tv only supporting 60hz, but im just curious to find out if there are other ways to overcome this issue...

*or alternatively cabmame, but i prefer mameuifx as cabmame seems to be falling behind with regards to features etc

There's not too many games in MAME that actually run at EXACTLY 60Hz.  A lot are somewhere between 59 and 61, and then of course there are other oddballs like R-Type and Mortal Kombat.  Whatever it is, one of the goals of running native resolutions is get the game running at as close the original refresh rate as possible.

Using MAME's sync to refresh option allows the emulated arcade hardware to run in time with the computer's video output.  Then you tweak your timing values in Powerstrip to get the refresh rate you're actually outputting as close to what it was originally supposed to be as possible.  I can usually get it matched down to two or three decimal places.

This is the best way to get the game running at its intended speed without any frameskip and no tearing.  I think it's the only way run at the correct speed with no tearing without the resorting to the wait vsync option or triple buffering (those cause lag btw, especially triple buffering).

Most 15kHz TV's are fairly flexible with vertical scan rate (same thing as refresh rate), you just have to adjust the front and back porch to keep horizontal scan rate around 15,750Hz (15kHz).  It's true that NTSC and PAL TV's are designed with their respective standards of 60 and 50Hz in mind, but that doesn't mean that's all they're capable of.  I haven't had any problems with mine yet, and I've specifically tested it with R-Type, which worked fine.

You do have me thinking though, I think R-Type's 55Hz is the lowest I've gone, so I wonder how much further I could get, or if there's any games that even have a refresh rate much lower than that.

So, to answer you questions:

can you confirm that if you use a regular tv are you only going to get smooth gameplay with games which run at exactly 60hz

No, this is not the case.

are you saying there is a method using soft15khz/powerstrip to overcome this problem?

Powerstrip is important in getting the right refresh rate, but there's no problem per se; and you don't want exactly 60Hz, you want what the game originally ran in.

i am aware of using a version of mame such as mameuifx* to force ALL games to run in 60hz

This is not a good solution.  Either the game won't be running at its original speed or it will have extra or missing frames, it's simple math.  Whenever you're not running at the original speed, you'll also have audio skipping problems in certain games, especially those with CHD audio.

[adder]

ok thanks for the info, sigh there's a lot to all this stuff isnt there lol, i wish it was simpler

so regarding the way you set up mame to run the games at the correct res/refresh, do you personally have to actually set up every mame resolution you use (eg. via powerstrip tweaks etc)? there are hundreds of resolutions in mame i thought, so surely that must be a never ending nightmare? or is this the price you pay for using a tv?

[rCadeGaming]

Yes, you do have to set it up for each resolution, and it is good deal of work.  It's not that terrible though.  I wouldn't say that there's hundreds of resolutions, at least not for 95% of the games.

Keep this in mind:

Note that most games run on hardware that's shared with a lot of other games.  For example, Street Fighter II runs on CPS-2 hardware, so once you've tweaked up Street Fighter II just right, you can tell MAME to use those setting for all CPS-2 games, as well as CPS-3 since it uses the same resolution.  I think CPS-1 as well, but I forget.

Same thing with NEO GEO, once you've set up one NEO GEO game, you're done tweaking for all of them, etc.  There's not too many games you'll be concerned with that ran on totally unique hardware.

Dissimilar hardware and individual games will often run on somewhat common resolutions as well.  You usually just need to tweak refresh rate a little, which can be easily done without affecting geometry if you know what you're doing.

[rCadeGaming]

Important info from a PM conversation:

You should be able to control horizontal and vertical position, and horizontal stretch, pretty freely, but the ability to shrink or stretch the picture vertically in powerstrip is always going to be limited.  It's not a limitation of the software or the transcoder it's simply the nature of a 15kHz display.

A 15kHz display is designed to display about 240 lines from top to bottom (in progressive, 480 in interlaced).  Horizontal resolution is much more flexible, it's possible to display 640x240 progressive.  In terms of vertical though, you can't get to far away from 240 lines.

This isn't a problem for horizontal 15kHz games, because vertical resolution is always going to be right around 240.  Set the vertical stretch in the TV's service menu to a happy medium, and adjust Powerstrip's limited vertical range around that.

There are a few cases like R-Type, which is 256 lines, where you have to live with a few lines cut off.  In this case you shift position up a little bit so you can the HUD at the bottom, and leave the cut off at the top, where there's nothing going on.  This is an instance where the slider controls are very useful.

[rCadeGaming]

More stuff for reference:

Your default setting for all games are stored in MAME.ini.  When you make changes to specific hardware or games, those changes are saved in a separate ini.  In your MAME folder there should be an ini folder.  Inside will be ini files named after specific games or hardware. 

Specific hardware settings override default settings, parent game settings override specific hardware settings, and clone game settings override parent game settings. 

Say you made some settings changes to a clone game and you want to revert it back to the parent game settings.  Deleting the clone game's ini is the best way to do so.  Same thing all the way up the ladder.

You should open your ini files sometimes and keep track of what changes are coming from what level, or things can become a mess.

[slug54]

Hey everyone,
Great thread alot of good info here.
I really like the idea of using a TV with component input and 15Khz.
I picked up a sony TV today at Goodwill it is a Sony KV-24FV300 which has a component input,It was priced at $11.99 but today is there 50% off day so I got it for $6 they have a new policy where they will only charge 50 cents per inch of screen size so it's a good place to hunt for TV's.

Does anyone know if this TV would work well and be able to run games at their native resolutions and 15Khz?

I also have a couple other questions:

Is there any issues with running a TV in a verticle orientation? It just seems like most people I see run them horizontally.

Does anyone know of a video card that will work with Soft15K and is able to output on a component adapter at native resolutions ?
Transcoders are expensive and if I could get a video card that does this I could save $$$.

Thanks in advance.
-Slug

[rCadeGaming]

That's great, nice find.  Welcome to the project.

Does anyone know if this TV would work well and be able to run games at their native resolutions and 15Khz?

I think that's what notbillcosby's running, so it should work perfectly, not entirely sure though.

You can confirm for yourself if it's a 15kHz TV.  Try hooking it up something that you're positive is outputting 480p.  If you get a garbled mess or no picture, that's a sure sign that it's 15kHz only, which is good.  If it displays a correct picture in 480p, you may have a problem; you'll have to determine if it's able to display 240p without upscaling.

What I do is hook up my PS3.  It starts up fine in 480i.  Then when I switch to 480p in the settings, I should lose picture if it's a 15kHz only TV.  Any modern console you can do this with should be fine.

Is there any issues with running a TV in a verticle orientation? It just seems like most people I see run them horizontally.

Shouldn't be.  I plan on using a TV like this in my vertical cab.  You may need to degauss after rotating, just a like you would with an arcade monitor.

Does anyone know of a video card that will work with Soft15K and is able to output on a component adapter at native resolutions?
Transcoders are expensive and if I could get a video card that does this I could save $$$.

I haven't found one myself.  Supposedly there are some, but no one's been able to provide a specific card yet.  You could read through the list of Soft15kHz supported cards and see if you can find any clues.

A suitable card for VGA out can be found for under $20, leaving money leftover for the transcoder.  If you do find a capable on with component, I don't know how much it will cost.

One thing about the transcoder is that you'll need it anyway to run certain video game consoles in RGB.  Something to think about if you plan on adding things in the future.

[robneal81]

I'm hoping you guys could help.  I've searched for hours and can't find the answer...

I have a Sony PVM-20M2U RGB monitor.  I'd like to hook up my old mini PC to it, which uses an Intel 865 (mobile) Chipset with integrated graphics.  I bought a VGA to RGBHV cable by accident (I guess I was supposed to get a VGA to RGBs).  I used a Y cable to tie H and V sync together and plugged it into my monitor's sync input.  I then loaded Soft 15Khz and quickres, changed the resolution to 640x480 and rebooted.  Now, I get this:



I'm using VNC so I can make changes in real time, but nothing's working.  Is the distorted image a result of using the wrong VGA to RGB cable, or do you think it's a setting?

For the record, the monitor works perfect otherwise (I have all my old consoles hooked up via RGB).

I'd really appreciate any help!

[notbillcosby]

I'm not the expert here, but I've spent many hours recently poking around with this stuff and I've never found a setting that made my tv do this. If I had to guess, I'd say it's a cable. rCadeGaming, whatchoo thing?

[robneal81]

That's kinda what I was thinking.  Can anyone please post a link to a proper VGA to RGB cable?

[rCadeGaming]

Rob, nice monitor.  I looked this up and found the manual.  Download here if you don't have it already:

http://www.mediafire.com/?1wc0y5vo9v43b2r

Some things to check first:

-Make sure you have the RGB and sync BNC's connected to the in ports.
-That monitor supports sync on green, so make sure there's not a setting somewhere to manually tell it to use the external sync port.
-Looks like there's a vertical hold control in the menus somewhere.  If you use it, don't lose track of the default.

Wanted to get that stuff out of the way first, but yes the problem is probably your cable.  You usually can't just tie H and V sync together like that (in fact it can damage the monitor), you need a circuit to properly combine H and V sync.

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

The second circuit there (the simpler one) may work for you, but the first one (the bigger one) would probably be more of a sure thing.  I would order the parts for both and try the simpler one first.  They share many of the same parts, and it would be probably less than $10.  You just need one 74LS86 chip and a socket, some resistors, some capacitors, and some transistors.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74LS86AN/296-1669-5-ND/277315

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1-390261-3/A100205-ND/1125623

I might be able to sell you an Extron RGB 202 that would combine sync.  It also has horizontal and vertical position shift controls, but it causes a frame of lag because of that.  I'd recommend trying that circuit first.

I'd ask MonMotha to look at this and see what he thinks too.

Oh, two more things, note that that monitor requires negative sync according to the manual, and what's VNC?

[robneal81]

Thanks so much for your reply!

I've been using the monitor for a few months with all my old game systems, so I'm sure it's connected and set properly.  I really appreciate the links and I may give them a try, but can I just buy a pre-made cable?  I found this one online:

http://www.cablesondemand.com/product/AV-SVGDB9M4BM/URvars/Items/Library/InfoManage/AV-SVGDB9M4BM.htm

(I do realize that one is only 9-pin VGA, I just mean a cable like it?)

If not, maybe it's just easiest for me to buy your RGB 202.

Also, VNC is a free remote desktop app.  With it, I can control the computer that's hooked up to my monitor from my laptop.  If you haven't used it, I'd definitely give it a try.  You could also use logmein.com's app as well, but that goes over the internet and VNC is local, making it a bit faster (obviously, the computer hooked up to the monitor has to be connected to your network).  Here's some links:

http://www.uvnc.com/downloads.html

https://secure.logmein.com/

[rCadeGaming]

I really appreciate the links and I may give them a try, but can I just buy a pre-made cable?

It would have to be something with a sync combiner circuit in it, or else it would just connect H and V straight together like you've already done.  You could certainly make a cable with a circuit in it, but I don't think it's available commercially.

If not, maybe it's just easiest for me to buy your RGB 202.

I'd recommend trying to build your own circuit first.  That one's pretty simple.  Just getting a few parts and connecting the dots.

If you're not familiar with soldering electronics, it's a great skill to learn (especially for this hobby), and not too difficult.  (Actually, how are you getting RGB from your old consoles, have you already soldered up some custom cables, or did you use SCART cables and some kind of adapter?)

If you're not up for that, let's see if there's a product that can do this without adding lag first.  There probably is.  PM MonMotha and Haruman and ask them to take a look at this.  If needed I'll sell you a 202 cheap, but I'd like to see some other opinions before taking your money.

Also, VNC is a free remote desktop app.  With it, I can control the computer that's hooked up to my monitor from my laptop.  If you haven't used it, I'd definitely give it a try.

Sounds like that would use a lot of resources.  Just make sure it's only on when you need it.

Sounds pretty useful.  I'm not having too many problems right now fiddling with my arcade PC desktop in 480i, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.

Know of any way to do this through a USB cable instead of over the network?

[rCadeGaming]

Just posted a major update to this whole thread.  Look at the second post on page 1.

[adder]

hi rcadegaming, thought i would post here to ask u something;

i was previously satisfied with running all mame games in 640x480 interlace, but tonight i have been experimenting with the good old real low res modes with my crt tv. i have been messing around with several programs, namely soft15khz, winmodelines, powerstrip, and crt_emudriver (oh and quickres :)

the early experiments went well, and i got quite a few of the pre-defined resolutions to work (which were added to my windows xp setup by installing crt_emudriver), however there are also quite a lot which dont work on my tv

i remember you saying you have spent a lot of time setting up modelines to work on a standard tv. so my question: would you be willing to share your modelines which you created to work on a tv? if so, please simply post them here, or pm me. cheers!

note: absolutely no problem at all if you dont want to share them, i figured there was no harm in asking!

[rCadeGaming]

I might get some time to play with my setup around the new year.  What resolutions do you need help with in particular?

[rCadeGaming]

Have you read this whole thread?  Please make sure to first, as you'll find some tips about tweaking in Powerstrip, what you should be looking for, and things like running a game centered in a slightly larger resolution and adjusting the black border into the overscan.

[adder]

ok i will read through the thread again, i think my problem is not really understanding how a modeline works and how it is put together, and also why a regular crt tv accepts certain modelines and cant cope with others (ie. i dont know what the correct ranges are for a crt tv)

i have been reading around slowly though. i still feel i am a long way off understanding it all though (hence me trying to take a shortcut and nabbing your ready made modelines instead )

currently im trying to figure out a good way to display a game like 'Image Fight' (a vertical game, 256x384) on a tv mounted horizontally in the cab. so i need a modeline which has about 390 lines on the vertical. im happy to use interlace mode, but i cant figure out if its even possible to make an interlace modeline with around 390 vertical lines? in fact the closet working interlace modeline i can get is 640x480 which isnt even close

[rCadeGaming]

ok i will read through the thread again, i think my problem is not really understanding how a modeline works and how it is put together, and also why a regular crt tv accepts certain modelines and cant cope with others (ie. i dont know what the correct ranges are for a crt tv)

Some of the presets installed with Soft15kHz happen to work with TV's, and some others need to be tweaked to get working.  It's in there. 

i have been reading around slowly though. i still feel i am a long way off understanding it all though (hence me trying to take a shortcut and nabbing your ready made modelines instead )

The modelines I make are tweaked to my exact TV and transcoder.  What works best with your setup may be different.  If you'd like some of mine as a starting point, let me know which you're having trouble with.

cant figure out if its even possible to make an interlace modeline with around 390 vertical lines?

Well 390 lines isn't possible in progessive 15kHz, it's too many.  Sounds like you read that section if you're suggesting interlaced.  390 is a lot lower than the standard 480i, but MAYBE it's possible.  You might be able to get close and work with geometry from there.  I'll look into this.

[adder]

Some of the presets installed with Soft15kHz happen to work with TV's, and some others need to be tweaked to get working.  It's in there.

i'd grateful if you can give me some pointers on how i should be editing the modelines which dont work. should i be loading powerstrip, and then editing the bad modelines from within there? obviously im guessing this cant actually be done 'on-the-fly' as the tv would go out of sync right away due to the 'bad' modeline.  and  what's usually the problem, eg. the pixel clock? the scan rate? or 'could be anything'

390 is a lot lower than the standard 480i, but MAYBE it's possible.  You might be able to get close and work with geometry from there.  I'll look into this.

thanks for looking into it, even something around eg. 410 vertical lines wouldnt be too bad. but 480 is too much (game ends up looking tiny) ... btw would prefer if this modeline was 60hz if poss...

[thaddeussmith]

My PC is a 1U server that I happened to get for free last summer, and never had any idea what I was going to use it for until my recent arcade obsession started. I was pleased to find out it has 4gb of ram and 2 dual core (i think) Xeon 2.0ghz processors. I'm pretty sure they're 64-bit, I didn't realize that XP32 didn't take advantage of dual processors... I'll see what I can do.

I have a 1U dell that I've wanted to find a use for - 8GB ram, dual AMD CPU's, etc. But it sounds like a f*)&#$*& jet engine when running. How did you minimize noise in your cab without frying the server in the process?

[robneal81]

I'm sorry to took SO long to get back to you...been a busy few months.

So, in regards to your comment about needing a circuit to combine H&V sync:

It would have to be something with a sync combiner circuit in it, or else it would just connect H and V straight together like you've already done.  You could certainly make a cable with a circuit in it, but I don't think it's available commercially.

That's actually not true.  I found an old ATI viedo card that was on the list as being comaptible with Soft15Hz for $18 on eBay.  I installed it, set the resolution to 640x480, ran Soft1Hz and rebooted.  That was it, everything works perfect now.

Sounds like that would use a lot of resources.  Just make sure it's only on when you need it.

It barely uses any resources at all.  I mean, if you connect to it while you're playing a game, yes, it will be a CPU hog.  That being said, if it's just loaded and waiting in the background, you'll never notice it's there.  I launch Mame through XBMC (via Rom Collection Browser), so there's a lot always running on my PC and VNC doesn't hurt it at all:  No lag!


I just thought I'd share my experience with everyone, just in case someone else wants to to the same thing.

[rCadeGaming]

You're very lucky that your monitor happens to work with the sync you made, but that's not clean c sync with with proper levels and such, so don't gaurantee it to work for anyone else.  Some monitors are a lot pickier than others about sync, and damage to the monitor may be a possibility.

I did find a much simpler way to combine H and V to C sync safely here:

"you will need to create Composite Sync. This is done by running the Horizontal Sync through a 1N4148 diode and running the Vertical Sync through an 820 ohm resistor then connecting the two lines together (sync mix by viletim!)."

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:gamecube_rgb

[rCadeGaming]

Speaking of getting back to people, I haven't forgotten about what we talked about above Jadder.  My transcoder is kind of built into my home theater setup for RGB from old consoles right now, but I'm hoping to get a second one soon so I can get working on this stuff again.

[notbillcosby]

My PC is a 1U server that I happened to get for free last summer, and never had any idea what I was going to use it for until my recent arcade obsession started. I was pleased to find out it has 4gb of ram and 2 dual core (i think) Xeon 2.0ghz processors. I'm pretty sure they're 64-bit, I didn't realize that XP32 didn't take advantage of dual processors... I'll see what I can do.

I have a 1U dell that I've wanted to find a use for - 8GB ram, dual AMD CPU's, etc. But it sounds like a f*)&#$*& jet engine when running. How did you minimize noise in your cab without frying the server in the process?

Sorry for the late reply! The short answer is, I didn't. I turned the fans down as slow as I could in the BIOS as I expected it wouldn't really be straining the computer too hard to be playing Donkey Kong and Pac Man. It got quieter, but not quiet. About as loud as an xbox 360. After it was in my cabinet it was still plenty audible but not awful. Then it broke and I got a regular old PC in there and I love how much quieter it is. No looking back.

[rCadeGaming]

Updates:

Made a VGA to SCART adapter for use with a CVS-287 SCART to component transcoder.  It works excellent for computer to TV.  "running the Horizontal Sync through a 1N4148 diode and running the Vertical Sync through an 820 ohm resistor then connecting the two lines together" did not work very well though.  Just running h and v through a 1N4148 and then connecting them together works great though.  You can just connect together directly, but the diodes prevent potential problems caused the signal from one running back to the card through the wire from the other.

Notbillcosby:

I did some extensive testing with a KV-24FS120, and it works just as well as my KV-27FS120.  Very good range of adjustment on both H and V scan rate.  You have both a confirmed good transcoder and TV, so it must be at the PC end.  I'd highly recommend ditching Soft15kHz at this point and going with CRT_Emudriver, it's so much better and easier to adjust than powerstrip.  It can be used with vanilla MAME as well, GroovyMAME isn't required.  I'll switch over when manually defined modelines for each game are added though.  This is the video card I use:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231004974650?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[rCadeGaming]

Jadder, I did some work on trying to get Image Fight running pixel perfect in yoko orientation (meaning displaying a vertical game rotated to be upright on a horizontal screen) on a 15kHz set, and made a resolution that's 512x384@60 interlaced.  This is only 192 lines per field, so it's really hard to fill the screen with so few lines on a normally calibrated set that normally shows about 224. 

At first it was very short vertically and wide horizontally, so I increased the total horizontal lines (adding onto front/back porch, not active resolution) which squished it horizontally until it was in proper proportions.  I did this gradually while also adjusting the dot clock frequency and total vertical lines to keep the horizontal and vertical scan rates close to 15.750kHz and 60Hz so I wouldn't lose sync. 

^ *btw, this is a good example of how to make large adjustments without losing sync: Find what makes a useful geometry change, then if it causes you to start losing sync watch which scan frequency is being pushed too far.  There will usually be something else you can adjust to bring the scan rates back in line without undoing the geometry change.  Then you keep alternating, moving your geometry in small increments, while adjusting elsewhere to maintain sync.*

Finally, as I was getting close, I allowed horizontal scan rate to drift to its upper limit before losing sync so that the screen would continue to get taller; it ended up around 16.6kHz.  I kept vertical scan rate right at 60Hz.  In total, I was able to squish the screen horizontally by several inches to bring things into proportion, but I was only able to stretch it vertically by a fraction of an inch. 

*While horizontal size adjustments are very flexible at the PC end with timing values, only small changes to vertical size are possible and it's more difficult.*

The result is that there is about a 1 inch border around the whole screen in this resolution.  In gameplay, this customized resolution results in a slightly larger game screen than just running it centered and un-stretched in 480i, but not by a whole lot.





Here is the modeline:

Modeline "512x384_60 16.6KHz 60.0Hz" 12.210 512 560 616 736 384 464 467 550 interlace -hsync -vsync   

You can try this if you want a laugh.  It worked for me on two different Trinitrons, so cross your fingers and hope your TV can deal with 16.6kHz.  If you were to run the game with this, use Direct Draw, wait for refresh, auto frameskip.  Normally, Direct Draw, sync to refresh, no frame skip, is preferred, but it won't work well because this resolution is 60Hz and the game is supposed to run at 55Hz.  The output vertical refresh rate must be matched to the game's native rate for that.

Ultimately, the problem is that while you are getting a pixel perfect reproduction of the game screen, it isn't really clear enough to really get much benefit from this due to it being a small display area, having interlace-flicker, and lacking the strong scan lines of low-res progressive.  You might as well run it stretched to fullscreen in 480i using Direct3D, wait for refresh, auto frameskip, so you can at least use the full height of the screen.

So, unfortunately it's not worth it to make custom interlaced resolutions for yoko orientation.  This example was using a 256x384 vertical game.  Something with a more common resolution around 240x320 or less would be even worse.

[wordsworth]

Sticking my nose in here...

I think notbillcosby is using a RCA VHDC300 transcoder which I've recently found out does not work that well with these resolutions.

This is from the "Newbie TV walkthrough, please!":

It's that RCA transcoder I PM'd you about
...it was $10.01 after shipping

The Audio Authority 9A60 or the RCA VHDC300.  Either one sounded like it would work, just a little iffy.  Certainly worth the risk at that price.

This is from the "Ian's BurgerBoss project thread":

nbc >> It looks like you are using the RCA VHDC300, which is about 40-60 dollars cheaper than then Audio Authority 9A60A that I've been planning on buying.

I'm interested in the months you spent perfecting the video and any regrets, do overs, or concerns you might have regarding the RCA VHDC300 and/or soft 15khz.

Harvey: Good eye! Yes, that's what I used. Got it for $10 after shipping on Ebay. I have some issues when it comes to adjusting screen geometry in Powerstrip when I'm running a progressive scan resolution- anything I adjust makes it FREAK OUT. I don't know if this is the video card, the transcoder, or the TV. I have no point of reference, so I'm not sure what to blame...

I actually bought a VHDC300 based on those posts and it's low cost (~$20 shipped) but it turned out to be a mistake for me.

This post, http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131980.msg1369637.html#msg1369637, explains my trouble with this transcoder.

Maybe this helps someone else not make the same mistake I did. You get what you pay for 

[rCadeGaming]

He eventually did pick up a TC1600, but was still having problems making adjustments to timing values, which is why I think the problem is narrowed down to the PC now.  Thanks for the help and the interest though.

[wordsworth]

Okay, that clears it up then.

BTW is that the CRT_Emudriver interface in your first new pic. If it is that's SOOO much better than S15KHz/PowerStrip.

[rCadeGaming]

That's ArcadeOSD, which is included with CRT_Emudriver for adjusting resolutions, and yes, it is much much better than Soft15kHz/Powerstrip.  I'd never go back.

[adder]

hello Rob, aaaargh i havnt been around in ages here apart from the odd quick view here and there so only just saw the post
fantastic to see you messin about making tv's work in a way which if they could speak would say "erm, would you like to watch a dvd instead? leave me alone!"

an update from me is im no longer stuck at 60hz, i was being a prat (as usual) and realised my tv is just fine with other refresh rates (eg. 55hz) and of course so is my ati video card. in fact by pure coincidence im using the same video card calamity recommends as being pretty much the best for custom resolutions ... QUOTE: "For a MAME-only setup (no HLSL) and Windows XP, my favourite is Radeon X300"

unfortunately, my 'supermarket' style beko tv bursts into tears once it hits about 15.9khz so i dont think there is much point pushing my luck. however, maybe its time for me to keep my eyes open for a sony trinitron. sidenote: atari paperboy is another interesting res.... horiz game but at 512x384 .... i wonder how eg. groovymame deals with that game's resolution

by the way, (note: you might not be interested in this if you're not a fan of playing vertical games on a horizontal tv);  i found a nice easy (well, pretty easy) way in mame to override that annoying feature of only having 2 choices in mame regarding displaying vertical games horizontally (ie. 'thin in the middle' of the screen, or stretched full width...ok there's a 3rd choice also.. pixel aspect view). anyway i have it so u can simply choose the size of the side borders.. and there is no 'visible stretching' so to speak (ie. like u get when u stretch stuff vertically).  ok so of course the proportion does change, but personally speaking i find that if u dont stretch too much (ie. avoid full width stretch) you get good results (in my opinion)

to do this you dont even need to do a mame custom compile (altho it can be done via custom compile if preferred)
if u are interested in the details on how to do that just shout
cheers

edit: i took some pics... prob will get flamed for these but what the hell see below:

mame: standard view (too thin in my opinion)


mame: pixel aspect view (better, but still too thin)


mame: my custom view: yay just right


mame: full view (too stretched looking)

[rCadeGaming]

Paperboy used a 24kHz "medium res" or "EGA" monitor.  There's no way we'll get 384 lines progressive on a 15kHz tube.  By coincidence, 512x384i is the same res I made for Image Fight in yoko a few posts above, so you can see the problems there.  Also, GroovyMAME can't do anything magical we couldn't do by hand.  Unless it was hooked to an actual 24kHz monitor it would have to scale and compromise just the same.

I'm guessing you're setting your own aspect ratio to change the size of the side borders?  I fooled with that a bit before getting into native res, but I put a higher priority on keeping the display area in proper proportions rather than worrying about the size of the borders.  When you're really playing you'll be looking at the graphics, not the side borders.

I've found that most games are designed to fill a 4:3 space, regardless of the "pixel aspect" of the resolution used, simply because they would be adjusted to fill a 4:3 screen.  For example, early Nintendo games like Mario Bros. ran in 256x224, which is 8:7 pixel aspect.  However, the developers knew that, in the actual cabinets, monitors wouldn't be adjusted to show that aspect with a little border, they would be adjusted to fill the screen.  So, this was accounted for in the way it was drawn.  When 256x224 fills a 4:3 monitor, each actual pixel is no longer square, it's a little wider than it is tall; but the characters are drawn to compensate for this, so they're displayed in the proportions the artists intended.  CPS1/2/3 games, like Street Fighter, are the same way.  They run in 384x224, so each pixel ends up taller than it is wide, but the characters are drawn with this in mind.

In those pics it's the same principle; I'd go with the standard view (4:3).  In your custom view, some of the characters are almost as wide as they are tall.

[adder]

I'm guessing you're setting your own aspect ratio to change the size of the side borders?

that's it yea.  mr. do (artwork expert) at mameworld forums explained to me how to do it, i will post his message he sent to me at the bottom of this post.

In those pics it's the same principle; I'd go with the standard view (4:3).  In your custom view, some of the characters are almost as wide as they are tall.

this is where we differ then in the sense that i dont mind a certain amount of stretching, even if indeed the look of the sprites changes so they are 'fatter'. that said, i dont want it stretched all the way fullscreen, but personally want it bigger than mame pixel aspect ratio. anyway its no big deal is it, we all have our ideas about whats acceptable and what isnt, and i will always respect purists (after all they are the very backbone of the emulation scene )

post from mr. do:
-----------------------------------------------------
to apply this to ALL vertical games, the easiest way would be to edit the default vertical.lay file, and compile your own version:

http://www.mamedev.org/source/src/emu/layout/vertical.lay.html

In line 5, change the values for "right" and "bottom" to be the aspect of how you want to run the games, then compile MAME, and every vertical game will run at the new aspect ratio (sidenote: make sure there is always a difference of '1' between your two numbers, or you will get changes to the top and bottom of your screen instead of just the sides... eg. 4:3, 5:4, 6:5, 7:6 are all ok.. but 7:5 would be bad).

If you dont compile mame yourself or just want to run certain vertical games that way, then do the same as in the paragraph above,  but instead of compiling mame yourself, save a copy of the file as "default.lay" (note: dont save it as an ANSI text file or mame will reject the file), and add it to a ZIP file named "gamename.zip" (where gamename is the name of the ROM), then make a copy of that file for each vertical game you want to run that way, and put all of those zips in your artwork directory.
-----------------------------------------------------

[adder]

rCadeGaming can u give me any general modeline tweaking tips regarding getting as many viewable lines (height) as possible on a tv please (fyi im still using powerstrip at the moment as im kind of used to it)

talking low res modes, the problem i have with my beko tv is i feel im not seeing enough visible lines (i lose too much off the top and bottom of the picture).  note: i have pulled in the top and bottom of the screen in the tv service menu by quite a lot.   you can see in my Commando pics earlier in this thread that im losing the entire score area at the top of the screen, and i cant see how many grenades are remaining at the bottom of the screen.  ok so the game Commando height is 256 lines so maybe i cant display it all on a horizontal tv, but id be happy with even just a couple of more lines. every single line is precious at this point

mainly im wondering, does the amount of visible (height) lines very between tv brands, ie. can some tv's display more than others? (eg. is scan rate a key factor, ie. a tv must be able to handle high scan rate values in order to display a lot of lines?)

also, what part does refresh rate play... can u get more visibile lines if u have a game at eg. 58hz instead of 60hz? you might think im crazy (as i know u like things looking and running as they did at the arcades), but id sooner play commando at 58hz if i can see more of the screen rather than 60hz but have the top and bottom of the screen cut off). the 2hz reduction in overall gameplay speed honestly doesnt bother me.   note: i use the soundsync feature in mameuifx so gameplay-wise the game will still remain perfectly smooth the way it scrolls, and the way the music/sound is heard (no stuttering etc)

regarding modelines, is there a link between horizontal and vertical geometry/size with regards to how many lines in height u can display on a tv, or are they mostly independent so to speak

does vertical front/back porch play a key role. should both of these amounts be set very low eg. 0 or 1? and what about sync width...
im even struggling understanding the relationship between 'active' and 'total' lines tbh (im forever noob, i know )

sorry this post ended up a bit long, i will mess around some more with powerstrip advanced timing and look at the tv service menu again. any tips or advice would be most welcome. cheers!

[Rigby]

when you work with a tube TV that is driven by a TV chassis, you are limited to NTSC resolution.  You can adjust how much shows on screen, if the chassis supports it, via picture height and width controls.  Out of the factory there is always overscan; picture that you cannot see because it is covered by the frame.

The only avenue I know of for increasing the amount of lines your TV can display is to make adjustments to minimize overscan.  No matter what is driving the TV, it will have to speak NTSC in order for the TV to display it, so you're going to be bound by that.

All lies.  I was misinformed and this entire post is incorrect.  IGNORE!

[adder]

thought i would add a bit more info if that helps:

example game used: Rastan by Taito - 320x240

so as u can see in the pic below, i lose the top and bottom of the screen (where it says HIGH SCORE, and CREDIT)

and that's with my beko tv vertical size adjusted so the screen is really pulled in (in the pic u can even see that visible line thing u get at the top of tv's if u pull them in too far vertically)

my powerstrip settings are below. needless to say i suck at this stuff and cant seem to get my head around it (which is weird for me as usually if i mess around with something long enough i figure it all out through trial and error )

surely my tv can display 240 lines

[rCadeGaming]

when you work with a tube TV that is driven by a TV chassis, you are limited to NTSC resolution.

Rigby, sorry to be a dick, but this is completely false.  It is one of the big misconceptions that keeps people from understanding that a standard definition TV is a highly viable option for GENUINE classic arcade resolutions.  Please read through the thread before posting misinformation, and do not spread this around any further.

Yes, North American standard definition TV's are designed primarily to display a standard NTSC signal, but this in no way means that they are strictly limited to it.  They can display ANYTHING reasonably close to 15kHz horizontal scan rate and 60Hz vertical scan rate. 

Case in point: The NTSC standard is 480i.  Not a single game console from the ATARI to the Nintendo 64 sticks to 480i.  They all ran in 240p or less most of the time.  The NES outputs 256x224p, but you won't have any trouble displaying it on a standard def TV; and no, the TV was not upscaling to 480i before actually displaying.  TV's did not have any scaling capabilities until hi-def CRT's and flat panels came out in the 2000's, and visible scanlines are proof that you're looking at 15kHz progressive.

Long story short, 90% of games in MAME run somewhere between 224p and 256p, and all of these can be displayed in native res on a standard def TV if you know what you're doing.

-

Jadder, first are you still using Soft15kHz and Powerstrip?  If you've got a Radeon X300 you need to switch to CRT_Emudriver ASAP.  You'll have a MUCH better time making adjustments in ArcadeOSD than Powerstrip.

I'm working on a big write-up to answer some of your questions, but it will probably have to wait a week or so while I'm out of town.  For now, make sure you're actually telling MAME to use an appropriate resolution of at least 240 lines when running Rastan.  Open the options specific to that game, make sure you have the right resolution selected, and make sure switch resolutions to fit is checked.

If that is all good and you still can't get all the lines visible, then start looking for another TV.  A good Trinitron will give you plenty of adjustment in the service menu to show the full 256 lines of R-Type!

[adder]

cool, cheers Rob.  if it is the beko tv limiting the amount of lines and not my modelines settings, then i will feel better about my lack of progress, as ive tried for hours to fit more lines in but just cant get past about 234 in height!

im not using soft15khz, all i use is powerstrip to generate the modelines which are then added to the windows registry
then in mame i choose the corresponding resolution for each of the games (eg. the 512x240 resolution for rastan).

when i set up my mame pc i cant remember if i used the crt_emudrivers when installing the video card, but i think i did. i may try arcadeOSD then but to be honest i personally only really need about 10 modelines, which is enough to run everything i like (without stretching the height of course. i dont allow any of that). anyway i have set up all of those modelines already in powerstrip and they are all sitting comfortably in my windows registry. its just a case of my tv cant handle the height of the 240 and above modelines it seems.

if i do start over in the future though with a new mame project, i would switch from mameuifx (with its soundsync feature) and powerstrip,  ...  to groovymame, crt_emudriver, arcade osd.. that's clearly the way forward. i'm not quite ready for that just yet, but tomorrow is a different day..

i will start looking for another tv!

[Rigby]

Rigby, sorry to be a dick,

Then don't be.  If you're going to be a dick on purpose, I would ask you why, and what you hope to accomplish with that.

but this is completely false.  It is one of the big misconceptions that keeps people from understanding that a standard definition TV is a highly viable option for GENUINE classic arcade resolutions.  Please read through the thread before posting misinformation, and do not spread this around any further.

I have no issues being wrong.  I learned a lot from your post despite the combative attitude.  If you're sorry to be a dick then don't be one in the first place.  It is easier to teach others, and easier for willing students to learn, by using a supportive tone rather than a spiteful one.

I'm aware that the NES and other consoles never displayed 480i, but I always assumed it was because they simply failed to draw the 2nd field of the picture (odd scanlines only, or even or whatever it is) not that they manhandled the signal enough to nearly fully ignore the NTSC standard.

I'd have thought it obvious why I falsely assumed this; NTSC and PAL are relatively close but we all know they are incompatible with one another.  480i and 576i are a lot closer to each other than 480i and 224p are, at least at first glance.

So anyway I learned a lot from you and I thank you.  If you're at all worried about my opinion of you, don't, but if you don't want to be a dick, then don't be one.  Sorry to say that three times but I want to make sure you and others know that I consider post language and tone to be fully under the post author's control.

[rCadeGaming]

I felt that what I was saying was something that had to be said.  I wasn't just trying to "be a dick on purpose."   My main priority was to be very clear and direct, as I felt it was very important to prevent anyone else reading from taking your statement as fact, and prevent it from spreading any further.  That being said, I realized it may come off as harsh, which is why I said "sorry to be a dick."

What I meant was "sorry if this is harsh, but I feel it needs to be said." 

If I was at all spiteful I think it was because you'd jumped into the middle of a thread and posted harmful misinformation that you could have known is not true if you had read through the thread so far prior to posting; but I realize that it's a long thread and perhaps you didn't have the time just yet, it was a hasty reaction on my part.  Again, I apologize if I came off as a jerk.

-

Jadder, I just noticed something, if Rastan runs in 320x240, why are you running it in 512x240?  That would either leave quite a lot of black space to the left and right, or result in uneven horizontal stretching if stretched to fit.

[adder]

Jadder, I just noticed something, if Rastan runs in 320x240, why are you running it in 512x240?  That would either leave quite a lot of black space to the left and right, or result in uneven horizontal stretching if stretched to fit.

no reason really, it just seemed to work ok so i left it alone, and i wasnt keen on setting up a large amount of modelines, so i figured if i have a high horizontal res amount, then all the '? x 240' games i play can share that one resolution. im quite fussy when it comes to scaling so if there was noticable stretching on the horizontal i would tackle that problem. if it's there, i cant see it (or havnt seen it so far anyway. to be honest i havnt played a huge amount of games so far though). the horizontal is my friend at the moment. it's the vertical which is my enemy
i will try to source another tv

[Rigby]

I realize that it's a long thread and perhaps you didn't have the time just yet, it was a hasty reaction on my part.  Again, I apologize if I came off as a jerk.

No worries.  I fixed the post.

[adder]

update:
i managed to try another tv, i dont believe it is a particularly good brand (ALBA) but it's all i have here at the moment

so my beko crt tv couldnt display more than 234 lines regardless of how much you pull in the vertical size in the tv service menu..
the ALBA tv, after i pulled in the vertical size in its service menu, can manage 243 visible lines. it might not sound like much of an improvement but it most definitely improves eg. seeing scores at the top of the screen or lives remaining at the bottom

im not sure i will actually stick with the alba tv though, as the picture quality is not quite what i hoped, the remote control only half works, the tv always comes on in standby mode, and the interlace mode i set up for displaying Windows desktop is rolling (ok i could fix that in powerstrip....)

well anyway, the search continues. gonna try other tv's and hope to get closer to 256 visible lines. freakin hope i can find a sony or panasonic crt tv

[notbillcosby]

It's been too long since I've posted; I've been involved in a drawn-out move from one city to another that has severely cut into my ability to really work on my machine. Instead, I've spent my free time PLAYING THE HELL OUT OF IT with friends. Donkey Kong and Burger Time, man....

My Sony cuts the top and bottom off, exactly like the pictures shown above. In most/all games I've moved the screen with the MAME controls to find a compromise where I can see the bulk of what I need to in order to play the game. If I'm missing a few pixels of Score at the top and a few of how-many-lives-I-have at the bottom, it does irk me a little bit just because of the amount of time I've spent on this, but ultimately it has no real effect on my gaming. Some time ago, when my TV moved from sitting on the floor next to my computer to being gutted so the case could be cut down, and then jostled AGAIN to get into my cabinet, the geometry of the screen changed. I had to spend some very real time in the service menu adjusting things as best I could... I do not remember if the tops and bottoms were cut off before this, but I know things got slid strangely off to the side. That was an easy 5 or 6 months ago so my recollection is hazy at best.

I'm one of the chumps still using Powerstrip. The idea of starting over with a new build of MAME is extremely daunting to me, especially if it involves downloading a whole new ROMset and stuff. I'm probably going to just keep playing for now until my apartment is arranged in a way that I can comfortably dig into this for a few months again. It's just so hard to want to do the un-fun tasks of computer junk when I've got a high score to beat.

[rCadeGaming]

Hey notbill, good to see you back.  You don't need to switch to GroovyMAME to use CRT_Emudriver, you can use it with your current MAME setup .  That's what I did because I'm waiting until the new GroovyMAME with manually defined modelines comes out.  Anyhow, it's just a matter of swapping out the graphics card and changing the drivers.

[nadcraker]

Any thoughts on the Sony KV-27FS200? I had a KV-27FS100 but...it didn't work out

The KV-27FS200 seems to be the same set, just with an extra RF adapter?

I can get one on Craigslist pretty cheap is why I am asking.

Thanks!

[rCadeGaming]

I'm not familiar with either of those TV's.  The 27" Trinitrons I'm working with now are the KV-27FS120 and KD-27FS170.  I find the tubes to be of much better quality on the KV's (at least as calibrated from factory, I will have to try improving that on the KD's), but the KD has an interesting behavior which is *extremely* useful for MAME:

In addition to MAME, my TV is also set up for consoles (real hardware).  So, I have my service menu geometry adjusted to a happy medium for the common ~224p resolutions from older consoles.  I've found this is great for MAME as well.  There are a ton of games that run around 224p.  To fit a few more lines, adjust overscan, etc, you can get some vertical size adjustment using a combination of horizontal scan rate and total horizontal pixel adjustment.  To fit in something a lot taller, like 256p, there is an interesting behavior of the TV that can be exploited.  If you increase the total lines (total, not active) to over 288 in progressive the picture will snap to a much smaller size, and a much larger resolution will fit on-screen.  If you find this value in ArcadeOSD, you'll literally see a huge change in size as you cross over it.  256p games now fit very well. 

For example, I can switch between Street Fighter II (224p) and R-Type (256p) with no service menu adjustments, and have the exact amount of overscan I want in both.  This works the same with interlaced resolutions (the boundary value is the same amount of lines per field, or double that amount per frame), and I have my desktop running in 704@512i, to make Windows a little more manageable.  So my tip is to learn to how use these two different "pictures sizes" above and below this total horizontal line value.  Optimize the smaller picture size for 224p, and the larger size for 256p. 

A real console, like a SNES or Genesis will provide a good reference for a standard "224p picture size" to shoot for when adjusting the service menu.  I also use a PS3 to output test patterns in NTSC standard 480i.  Using a PC isn't the best point of reference to begin with because your modelines can vary all over the place.

Yes, I've heard about this before, and it's something that should be considered. I wonder if that boundary total lines value is constant or depends on some other variable like vfreq or something. If it's constant, then it would be quite easy to model it by doing two separate ranges as mikecrj is doing. I believe this was designed to make these TVs autoadustable when switching between PAL/NTSC frames.

The NTSC/PAL switching theory makes perfect sense.  I think the boundary of 288 lines is constant, as I've used it with a few different resolutions of varying vertical scan rate.

I went back to a KV-27FS120 and I was not able to replicate this boundary value behavior.  I double checked, and it works consistently with both KD-27FS170's I have, but I could NOT get it working with either of my KV-27FS120's... It just seems to start losing sync around 285 lines regardless of h and v scan rates, and from what I can see through the rolling image, the size change doesn't seem to happen at 288.  The strange thing is that both models are supposed to be chassis BA-6 according to the service manual, so I feel like there must be something I'm missing.

EDIT:  I just noticed that the service manuals for these models list both as chassis type BA-6, but they also have more specific chassis numbers which are different.

KV-27FS120 - Chassis no. SCC-S61N-A
KD-27FS120 - Chassis no. SCC-S61Y-A

So, it is in fact a different model of chassis.

I'm going to try driving a KV-27FS120 tube with a KD-27FS120 chassis (SCC-S61Y-A).

If you can pick up a KV-27FS200 to test out please do.  I've gone through over a dozen TV's just for testing.  It sounds like it's in the range of models which should be appropriate for MAME (15kHz-only, component input).  What chassis is it?  Also, I'd be very interested if you could confirm or deny whether that model exhibits the 288 line boundary behavior.  Having another model to look for and to recommend would be great.

What happened to your KV-27FS100?

[nadcraker]

What happened to your KV-27FS100?

I put a hole in the tube.

I am very new to this kind of monitor stuff, but by all means I will try to help out.  How can I tell what chassis it has?

[rCadeGaming]

Well s**t!  Sounds like a good story.

Find the service manual which covers that model, and it will list the chassis type.  Thanks for the help.

[nadcraker]

According to the service manual, it says BA-5D, but then has the following table:

MODEL         DESTINATION            CHASSIS NO.

KV-27FS100      US                       SCC-S65D-A
KV-27FS100      CND                    SCC-S64D-A
KV-27FS200      US                      SCC-S65E-A
KV-29FS100      LATIN NORTH      SCC-S62H-A
KV-29FS100      LATIN SOUTH      SCC-S62J-A
KV-32FS100      US                      SCC-S65F-A
KV-32FS100      CND                   SCC-S64E-A
KV-32FS200      US                      SCC-S65G-A
KV-34FS100      LATIN NORTH      SCC-S62K-A
KV-34FS100      LATIN SOUTH      SCC-S62L-A

[rCadeGaming]

Cool.  It looks like a great candidate for old school consoles and 15kHz native res from MAME.  Only testing will tell us about the 288 line boundary behavior, which I would be grateful to hear about.

If you go for it, let us know your results.  Hold onto that service manual, it will be very handy when you're setting up the geometry and such in the service menu.

[Tzakiel]

Really appreciate this thread... thanks rCadeGaming for all the info here.  I am building a UAII cabinet from north coast, I think the interior width is 27" wide.  I believe some 27" televisions fit inside, such as the "old" trinitron I have now which has only S-video, and speakers on bottom rather than sides.

Any other TVs with component that are 27" and might fit?  Like others, I am really scared I will kill myself with voltage if I take the casing off the 27" WEGA trinitron you recommend.

[rCadeGaming]

No problem Tzakiel, just trying to keep the authentic video aspect of this hobby alive.   

Discharging a CRT is something you need to learn if you want to use them properly in arcade cabs.  Just be careful and read the sticky for instructions.  It's very easy and once you've done it once or twice it won't be a big deal anymore.

As for recommendations I'd go for something in the KV-27FS range.  The one I can best vouch for is the KV-27FS120.

Don't bother with the KD-27FS170 I mentioned above.  The size switching at 288 total lines is nice, but the picture quality is very poor.  Geometry is unstable across different modelines, and focus is awful anywhere except the center of the screen.  I had planned on trying to connect its chassis to a KV27FS-120 tube to get the best of both worlds (KD model has size switching, KV has excellent picture quality).  Upon taking it apart, I found that they actually use the same model of tube, so switching the chassis between them is no help.  The poor picture quality seem to come from the design of the chassis itself.  The two models do also have slightly different driver boards, deflection yokes, and flybacks, so I also tried switching these around in various combinations (using the KV driver board and flyback with the KD chassis took a good deal of hacking things up), but couldn't get satisfactory results.

Eventually, I spent some time looking over all the games I consider worth playing in MAME to get some perspective.  A few hundred if you really stretch the definition of "worth playing."  What I found is that among the 15kHz games (which are the great majority), anything over 240p is actually pretty rare.  224p is by far the most common, with 240p in a distant second, and a few odd resolutions in between 224-240 lines being third.  There's not a lot that's notable over 240 lines, except the Irem m72.c games (R-Type I and II, Ninja Spirit, Image Fight, X-Multiply, all 256p), and various Midway hardware games (NBA Jam/TE/Hangtime, MK I-III if you're into that, all 253p).  There are in fact only a handful of games over 240 lines per field that I'd consider worth playing, maybe a dozen, which is not significant among hundreds of others.  So, the size switching isn't that important, as it's rarely needed, and I can make some compromises with that small handful of games.

In my case I'm also using consoles, which are never more than 240 lines per field (480i is still 240 lines per field, so it's the same vertical size as 240p).  I'm also building a separate cab with a vertical screen for vertical games.  So I'll never have to deal with running vertical games on a horizontal monitor (yoko), like Jadder and some other people here are trying to pull off.

Another consideration is that KD27-FS170's are pretty rare, whereas KV-27FS120's are very common.

Long story short, I decided to stick with the KV27FS-120.

[rCadeGaming]

Oh btw, I'm assuming you're in the US.  TV selection is a whole different story in PAL territories.

As for mounting a TV or monitor in a cab while it's still in its case, here's something to scare you straight:

http://www.wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/

[TalkingOctopus]

I'm using a Sharp 27uf-500 TV, which you can fit in an arcade without removing from the case.  I think the picture quality is good, but I do have a little bit of over scan.

[Tzakiel]

rCadeGaming,

Thanks much for your helpful reply. I think you may have convinced me to pick up the 27" wega trinitron and take it out of the casing. No way it will fit with those speakers on there. I guess I am still a bit nervous however. Is there any way to know what I can and cannot touch inside before I do the discharge?  And if I need to mess with it after I have it in the cabinet and have turned it on, can I touch the inputs, etc in the back without worrying about shock?

Speaking of getting it into the cabinet, that is another area of worry for me. It's a 100lb tube and, without the casing, I imagine it will be extremely unwieldy (and delicate) to lift and maneuver. Is there some sort of guide I can take a look at to building a safe frame for this type of tube, or how to get that started? I picture myself with a 100lb piece of fragile glass on the floor and no idea how to get that into a cabinet without breaking it. I am comfortable using wood pieces to make a frame for it, and I assume I would do that on the floor or table first, then load it in, but I am wondering how to attach it safely, and what height to mount it in the UAII, etc. I assume I can just mount it onto 2x4s, but not sure what shape or angles I need to create.  I guess the height will be up to me and I will just make a painted plexiglass cover/bezel for it to hide the empty space. I wonder if there is some tutorial or series of steps someone has documented about this?

No problem Tzakiel, just trying to keep the authentic video aspect of this hobby alive.   

Discharging a CRT is something you need to learn if you want to use them properly in arcade cabs.  Just be careful and read the sticky for instructions.  It's very easy and once you've done it once or twice it won't be a big deal anymore.

As for recommendations I'd go for something in the KV-27FS range.  The one I can best vouch for is the KV-27FS120.

[Tzakiel]

So do scanlines appear on all CRT tvs, or only when fed a 240p source?  I am using s-video (480i, then, I suppose) right now on a trinitron which does not have component in, and the games look blurry, I would say, but not really stacked in scanline rows like I see with rCadeGaming's examples. I'm just wondering if they should be there or not (even if not in native res)

[adder]

in interlace mode you will lose the scanlines,   you have to stay in low res modes to see them, eg. 224 / 240 / 256 lines etc

as for the scanlines themselves, i have found the strength of the scanlines (ie. how visible they are) seems to vary between tv to tv (but i admit it could just be my imagination )

[rCadeGaming]

Is there any way to know what I can and cannot touch inside before I do the discharge?  And if I need to mess with it after I have it in the cabinet and have turned it on, can I touch the inputs, etc in the back without worrying about shock?

Once it has been unplugged and the tube has been discharged, you should be able to touch absolutely any part of it safely.  The only exception is maybe if there's some huge capacitors that still are still holding a charge, but it's not very likely.

While it's on is another story.  Anything plastic, rubber, or glass is safe.  The big flat black area on the back of the tube is safe.  Any of the empty space on the circuit boards, usually brown, green, or blue areas, is safe.  The disc magnets on the neck and the little magnets that may be scattered around the back of the tube are safe.  What's not safe is any kind of exposed conductor that may be carrying voltage.  This includes components on the circuit boards, the silver/grey colored solder joints on the boards, any exposed copper traces, and ESPECIALLY any exposed copper wire, like the windings of deflection yoke coil. 

Knowing what you can and can't touch is important of you want to make geometry or convergence adjustments at the neck, which requires you to have your hands in there while it's on (I you don't disturb this stuff while moving the tube, you can leave this alone).  If you're unsure of anything check it with a multimeter.  Set it to measure voltage, connect the black probe to chassis ground, and touch the red probe to whatever's in question.  If it reads zero volts, it's probably safe.

Is there some sort of guide I can take a look at to building a safe frame for this type of tube, or how to get that started?

Maybe, search around.  Nothing I can think of right now.  I'm planning to just secure the four mounting ears to some wooden brackets in my cabs.  Let me know what you find or come up with.

I picture myself with a 100lb piece of fragile glass on the floor and no idea how to get that into a cabinet without breaking it.

Just don't pick it up by the neck (the skinny part in the back).  That is the only part of the tube that is fragile, the rest is very sturdy.  Many tubes are an inch thick of glass is most places.  The tube shouldn't be 100lbs.  I can carry around my 27" sets on my own, tube, chassis, case and all.

I guess the height will be up to me

Here's some advice for every aspect of this hobby.  Never take anything straight from paper plans to the final copy.  Make physical mock-ups to test everything.  Stack up some boards, crates, whatever, and set the TV on it.  Mock up your control panel with some scrap wood or cardboard.  It doesn't matter what it looks like.  The point is just that you can play it for a while and try lots of different things.  Play with the height of the screen, angle, distance from the control panel, control panel angle and height, button layouts, etc.  It's the only way to figure out what will be the most comfortable.  Nothing's worse than building a nice looking cab and then finding out that it's not as comfortable to play as you imagined it would be.

and I will just make a painted plexiglass cover/bezel for it to hide the empty space. I wonder if there is some tutorial or series of steps someone has documented about this?

Search about using tinted glass.  There are some good threads about it.  As for a bezel, the nice thing about a flat face tube is that you can just mask off the viewing area of a flat piece of glass/plexi, and spray paint the inside black.

So do scanlines appear on all CRT tvs, or only when fed a 240p source?  I am using s-video (480i, then, I suppose) right now on a trinitron which does not have component in, and the games look blurry, I would say, but not really stacked in scanline rows like I see with rCadeGaming's examples. I'm just wondering if they should be there or not (even if not in native res)

When a video technician hears the term "scanlines," he thinks we mean each line of video being scanned on the CRT, which is technically much more correct, but when we say "scanlines" in the gaming community we are generally referring to the black spaces in between each line of video.  I stick to that popular definition here.

There are a lot of things that determine how distinct the scanlines are.  A big factor is the dot pitch of the screen.  This is defined by the design of the aperture grille or shadow mask, and determines how sharply defined individual pixels will be. 

The black spaces in between each line of video are just areas that weren't lit up by the electron beams.  So, the finer the dot pitch, the finer each line will be, and the more black space will there will be in between them.  The thickness of each line will the be about the same whether you're using 240p or 480i, but with 480i you're packing twice as many lines into the same space, so there's going to be a lot less black space in between them if any.

So, yes, it's normal not to see any scanlines in 480i.  It depends on the dot pitch though.  Some CRT's have a fine enough pitch that faint scan lines can still be seen in 480i, and then of course on that same CRT the scanlines in 240p will be very bold.  On the other hand, older CRT's can have such a coarse dot pitch that scanlines aren't even visible in 240p (by the design of the era, dot pitch won't change due to aging).

The brightness/contrast/color saturation also affects how thick each line of video will appear, and therefore how much black space is left in between lines.  You'll notice in gameplay that scanlines are thinnest with a bright white screen.  I wouldn't recommend setting your brightness/contrast/color settings with scanline size in mind though.  The set should be calibrated properly, and then the scanlines are what they are.  You just have to pick a model with the scanline thickness you prefer.

EDIT:  Focus and convergence also have a big effect on the visibility of scanlines.  Both may be adjustable, but the latter is much more of an endeavor.

-

Aaaaaanyway.  That's not the TV you're going to use right?  Going through all the work of using a CRT isn't worth it if you're not reaping the benefits.  S-video out from a PC is not a viable option for authentic arcade picture.

[Tzakiel]

I'm using it for now but plan to replace it once i have all of the other pieces in place. Think I understand what those are for now. Meanwhile, I don't even have the cab.   I'll replace it with either the same tube you have or with a compact 27" component in tv.

[rCadeGaming]

Since I've been linking to them a lot recently, I thought I should post all of the test patterns I have to share here.  Some of these were taken from a great program called Nokia Monitor Test, which unfortunately only seems to work in XP32.

To calibrate a 15kHz TV or arcade monitor, display these in full screen in 480i.  If possible, it's preferable to use a game console to do this.  I use a PS3.  The problem with just displaying them from the PC is that your custom modelines could be all over the place, whereas most game console's 480i outputs will conform to NTSC standards, making them a good reference of where horizontal and vertical center should be.  You can use a PC if you have to, just make sure your 480i desktop modeline is well centered.

-

Geometry Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-white.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-red.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-green.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-blue.bmp

These are used to adjust everything from sizing and centering to pincushion and rotation.

When using these, you might want to leave some overscan (leave the edges cut off) rather than trying to display the whole thing, especially in the vertical direction.  You'll be able to adjust each individual game's horizontal size, horizontal center, and vertical center from the PC.  Vertical size is pretty much fixed to you service menu (or chassis potentiometer) setting though.  A lot of MAME games (and older console games) are only 224p, which is 224 lines per field.  If you try to get the entire 480i test pattern visible, you're showing a full 240 lines per field, which will leave 8-line tall black bars at the top and bottom of the screen during 224p games.  I use a Super Nintendo, which outputs 224p, to make sure I'm showing just about 224 lines.  You can use a 224 line MAME game, like Street Fighter II, just be sure it's well centered.

Also, be sure to carefully set up your vertical linearity and s-correction settings (if available) using these patterns.  These settings are often overlooked, and will cause vertically scrolling objects to have a distorting/warping effect if set up poorly.

-

Brightness and Contrast Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-brightness.bmp

This is a good one, but if you actually follow the directions your brightness might be a bit too low.  I usually end up leaving the 1% box just barely visible.  Contrast should be set so that the frames around the edge vary greatly from brightest to darkest, and each step is distinct.  You may need to zoom out or move this one around a bit, as those frames might be going into the overscan.

Brightness and contrast can be hard to perfect, you may find yourself comparing them in many different places throughout the process.

-

Color Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-brightness-color-contrast.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-color.bmp

To calibrate color, you will need to adjust the balance of the individual red, green, and blue color drives.  First, focus only on red, and set it to go a good level.  This depends on your preference.  You can make it as vibrant as you want, but you will be able to see when it becomes oversaturated as subtle differences in shade blur together and it will bleed over onto neighboring areas.  Try this both in-game, and using the two test patterns above.

These two patterns are also good for setting the lower cutoff levels of red, green, and blue, if available.  They will also show how brightness and contrast effect color levels.

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-yellow.bmp

Next focus on pure yellow.  In terms of light, pure yellow is an equal mix of red and green.  So, now that red is set, adjust only green.  When there is too much green, yellow will have a green tint.  When there is too little, it will have a red tint.  Pure yellow means red and green are well balanced.

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-white.bmp

Finally, focus on pure white, which is equal parts red, green, and blue.  Since the other two are set, finish by adjusting only blue.  When there is too much blue, white will have a blue or "cool" tint.  When there is too little, it will have a yellow or "warm" tint.  Some people may prefer a cool or warm tint, but I just set it as neutral as I can.  Pure white means the colors are well balanced.

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-red.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-green.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-blue.bmp

Pure red, green, and blue patterns can be used while adjusting purity and convergence.  These are advanced adjustments though.

-

Focus Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-focus.bmp

Simply adjust focus to achieve the desired sharpness.  This may also affect scanline visibility.  If a focus adjustment isn't available in a digital menu or with a potentiometer somewhere, there may be an adjustment inside the TV on the flyback.

-

1080p Test Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/1920x1080-brightness.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/1920x1080-color.bmp

These really don't belong in this thread, but since I'm sharing all the test patterns I have available here, I'll put them up.  They're good for calibrating a modern TV or computer monitor.  While doing so I also refer to the color patterns above.

[rCadeGaming]

Here's an update on the current availability of RGB to component transcoders.

I'm still using this:

http://www.crescendo-systems.com/transcoder.html

I use the TC1600 VGA to component transcoder (scroll down a bit on that page), which is a little more expensive, but the TC1500 will also do the job very well.  It just lacks some optional adjustments that most people will probably never use with game hardware.

*****
UPDATE 11/14/2014:  The Crescendo Systems website is currently down.  Looks like the domain is up for sale.  I was sorry to see this.  I'm not sure what happened, but I know that the "company" was actually a one-man operation run by an enthusiast named Kim Beumer.  His products and support were world class, but my guess is that it was not his day job.  He could have called it quits due lack of business (he served a tiny niche market), or he could have just had some more important life obligations.  If anyone has any idea what happened, please let me know.  I have spoken with Kim a few times via email, but the address I have is "@crescendo-systems.com" so I don't think that'll be of any use now.  Anyone who still wants a TC1600 could try contracting BYOAC member notbillcosby.  He wanted to sell his a while ago, and I don't think he did yet.  Aside from that, I guess my only recommendation for now is the CVS-287, below.  There are also some dedicated IC's available for building your own transcoder circuit, which I'll probably look into eventually.
*****

A cheaper option than either of those, but one that still works very well, is a CVS-287 RGB SCART to component transcoder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YPbPr-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/370695549217?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item564f2d3121

These work well, I have tested one personally.  However, to use it you'll have to make a VGA to SCART adapter.  If you can solder, it's very easy.  Just get a female VGA connector (also called a female DB-15HD) and hood, and a male SCART connector and hood.  Look up the VGA and SCART pinouts, connect red to red, green to green, blue to blue, and ground to ground.  Horizontal and vertical sync from the VGA connector must be combined to make composite sync.  This is done by running each through a 1N4148 diode and connecting them together.  Then connect that to the composite sync connection in the SCART connector.



Note that this schematic is only to intended for use with a CVS-287.  It has not been tested for other devices with SCART inputs, which may need switching voltages provided.

-

There are also transcoders available from RCA, Audio Authority, and JS technologies, but it hasn't been confirmed that these will work consistently with arcade resolutions, so they should be avoided.  Other users have actually had a lot of problems with the RCA unit; the other two are just unconfirmed.  I have personally tested the TC1500/1600 and the CVS-287 extensively and haven't found any problems.

[rCadeGaming]

I found this in my notes just now.  It looks like I was working on a post for something and it never went up.  It was about understanding front and back porch/blanking interval, and how it is used to make adjustments with modelines/timing values.  I might as well post it here:

Think of it this way:  Imagine you've made a resolution of 320x240 progressive.  The active resolution is 320 pixels wide.  The CRT's electron beam will move from left to right as it draws each complete line of 320 pixels, but then it will keep going.  It moves a little further through some blank pixels to until the horizontal sync pulse tells it to jump back to the left side of the screen.  This extra space to the right of the active picture is called the horizontal front porch.  After the electron beam jumps back to the left side, it will move through some more blank pixels before it starts drawing the next active line.  This extra space to the left of the active picture is called the horizontal back porch. 

Since a picture tube is naturally black, scanning blank or "black pixels" just requires that the electron beam doesn't "light them up."  It doesn't have to actually do anything to draw them, so the real function of the blank pixels is that it provides a few microseconds during which the electron beam doesn't have to be accountable anywhere on the screen.  This provides time for the process of the electron beam jumping back to the other side and re-stabilizing before it has to show up again to draw the first pixel of the next line.

Similarly, there are whole blank lines which allow time for the electron beam to jump back to the top of the screen (after being told to by the vertical sync pulse) and re-stabilize before drawing the first line of the next frame.  The extra space below the active picture is called to the vertical front porch, and the extra space above the active picture is called the vertical back porch.

Front and back porch areas are also referred to as blanking intervals sometimes.

Anyhow, you don't want to reduce your front or back porch to little or nothing, as you won't allow enough time for the electron beam to re-stabilize before drawing the next line or frame and have sync pulses taking place during the active drawing time.  This can cause the picture to become unstable or lose sync entirely.

However, adjusting front and back porch within reason is how to change geometry and scan rates while maintaining a given active resolution.

First, the total resolution (active resolution and front and back porch areas all together) will always be centered due to the nature of a CRT, but the active resolution can moved around within the total resolution to adjust centering.

-Increasing horizontal front porch and decreasing horizontal back porch will move the active picture to the left.  Doing the opposite will move it to the right.
-Increasing vertical front porch and decreasing vertical back porch will move the active picture up.  Doing the opposite will move it down.

Second, adjusting the total horizontal resolution will adjust horizontal size and horizontal scan rate.

-Decreasing both horizontal front and back porch will decrease total horizontal resolution, making the active picture appear wider and decreasing horizontal scan rate.

Adjusting total horizontal size, total vertical size, horizontal scan rate, and vertical scan, may all have an effect on vertical size, depending on how your particular display reacts.  However, the effect is extremely small.  Painstaking adjustment from one end of the spectrum to the other will sometimes result in a change of only a line or two, often less.  For all intents and purposes, vertical size adjustment isn't really feasible through timing value changes.  Luckily horizontal position, vertical position, and horizontal size are easily doable.

[MeatballB]

Speaking of getting it into the cabinet, that is another area of worry for me. It's a 100lb tube and, without the casing, I imagine it will be extremely unwieldy (and delicate) to lift and maneuver. Is there some sort of guide I can take a look at to building a safe frame for this type of tube, or how to get that started? I picture myself with a 100lb piece of fragile glass on the floor and no idea how to get that into a cabinet without breaking it. I am comfortable using wood pieces to make a frame for it, and I assume I would do that on the floor or table first, then load it in, but I am wondering how to attach it safely, and what height to mount it in the UAII, etc. I assume I can just mount it onto 2x4s, but not sure what shape or angles I need to create.  I guess the height will be up to me and I will just make a painted plexiglass cover/bezel for it to hide the empty space. I wonder if there is some tutorial or series of steps someone has documented about this?

Hey Tzak, what'd you end up doing with this? I also just picked up Sony Trinitron (KV-27FS13) and have just started to decase it and I'm wondering what's the best way to mount it in my UAII cabinet.  Be interested in any info/pics you have of your setup.

[Tzakiel]

Meatball,

I didn't end up decasing, and I used a toshiba 27a50. I might decase in the future but not in a rush. My build thread is in my sig. 

[rCadeGaming]

Does the tube have four metal mounting ears, one at each corner of the screen?  You should be able to rig a wooden bracket that those will bolt into.

[MeatballB]

Does the tube have four metal mounting ears, one at each corner of the screen?  You should be able to rig a wooden bracket that those will bolt into.

Yeah it does.  I've pulled the back cover off and can see those mounts, but haven't gotten much further.  I'll think something up, just wanted to see if anyone else had already come up with something.  I would have just left it in the case, but it's about 1" too wide.

[rCadeGaming]

Another entry for archiving purposes.  I wrote up a concise summary of the options for yoko-tating in response to a PM.  I figured I might as well post it here:

Displaying a vertical game on a horizontal monitor is called yoko, or yoko-tate. Basically, you won't be able to do it on a 15kHz display with most games, at least not in native resolution.  The problem is that once you turn a vertical game on its side, the "width" becomes the "height." 

Let's say, for example, you're playing a vertical game that runs in 320x224p@60Hz.  Normally you would turn the monitor on its side, so the game looks right-side-up and the monitor only has to put out 224 active lines per frame like normal.  On the other hand, if you try and leave the monitor horizontal and "rotate" the resolution you now have to display 224px320p@60Hz.  Actually you'll want to make that 456x320p@60Hz so the 224 pixel active width gets squished in horizontally, adding black borders on the left and right side to keep things in proportion.  The increased horizontal resolution is no problem for any CRT.  The problem is the vertical resolution.  A 15kHz display can't display 320 progressive lines at 60Hz, it's just mathematically impossible.  320 lines per frame * 60 frames per second = 19200 lines per second.  That's 19.2kHz before the blanking lines have even been accounted for.

There are several workarounds.  The first is of course to just rotate the monitor itself as originally intended.  That's my choice, but not everyone has the desire, or even the space, to have two separate cabinets.

The next is to use a 24kHz/EGA-capable display.  By adjusting the number of total lines you should be able to get 456x320p@60Hz, or other similar resolutions needed for yoko games, to run around 24kHz.  400 lines per frame * 60 frames per second = 24kHz.  This can give you pixel perfect native resolution at the proper refresh rate.  Of course, it ought to be a multi-sync monitor so that you can still play your 15kHz horizontal games normally.

If you're using a 15kHz-only display, one solution is to reduce the vertical scan rate to allow more lines at 15kHz.  Allowing 320 lines would require lower than 49Hz.  Some arcade monitors and PAL-capable TV's will be able to do this, most NTSC TV's will not.  Even if you are able to do so, deviating from the native refresh rate causes all kinds of issues with tearing, game speed, and sound sync, and the workarounds for these issues add lag.  You'll also need a big adjustment to the display's vertical size to show 320 lines, which may cause conflicts with your settings for normal 224-256 line horizontal games.

The simplest and most common solution on a 15kHz-only display is to just run yoko games scaled in 480i or some interlaced resolution close to it.  It won't be as pretty, you'll lose scanlines and add blurriness and interlace feathering, but you'll be able to scale the game screen to whatever size and proportions you want without deviating from the proper refresh rate or causing conflicts with your horizontal games.

[the720k]

Hi rCadeGaming.  I spoke with you briefly in a thread a couple months ago, and have been very intrigued about the prospect of attaining native res on my KV-27FS17.  My budget is extremely limited right now, so I couldn't drop the cash on the Audio Authority transcoder (which I really want eventually.)  I did, however, pick up a factory remote to enter Service Mode as well as an RCA VCHD300 transcoder.  Spent about $15 total on both.

I'm aware of the issues that many others have run into with the RCA transcoder, but I have also noted that those who have tried it have had a mixed bag of results - doesn't seem to be the same sets of problems among other hobbyists.  There also seemed to be tipping points with the other users, where they just got frustrated and bought a different transcoder/called it a day.  While reading those threads, the IT guy in me just had to see all the other avenues exhausted before declaring that this transcoder cannot possibly be used acceptably in a MAME cabinet. 

I work as an IT director, and thus have access to a plethora of decommissioned computers that would otherwise be routed to File 13.  With some of these comes video cards, and I have a variety of cards at my disposal.  My perhaps overly optimistic idea is that I might be able to get a working combination with this extremely inexpensive transcoder, and in the process of making mine work, I could document this process.  Bear in mind, I am not pinning my hopes on this, but thought it could be of great benefit to both myself and possibly other members of the forum if I were to at least take a stab at it.  And if it doesn't work, I understand these transcoders make halfway decent HTPC interfaces, so I wouldn't be out all that much money.

I plan on getting started on this tonight.  Mind if I bounce a couple thoughts of you while I go through the process?  Thanks again for opening my eyes to this possibility.  Really hoping I can make this work on my shoe-string budget, and in the process, help other hobbyists.

[rCadeGaming]

I did, however, pick up a factory remote to enter Service Mode as well as an RCA VCHD300 transcoder.  Spent about $15 total on both. ... I'm aware of the issues that many others have run into with the RCA transcoder ... the IT guy in me just had to see all the other avenues exhausted before declaring that this transcoder cannot possibly be used acceptably in a MAME cabinet.

Certainly, I appreciate the effort in confirming it one way or the other.  Glad you didn't have to pay much for it.

I have a variety of cards at my disposal.  My perhaps overly optimistic idea is that I might be able to get a working combination with this extremely inexpensive transcoder

Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to see any difference by trying different graphics cards.  As long as CRT_Emudriver is set up properly, the signal generated with a given modeline should theoretically be no different, regardless of what video card is used (assuming we're only considering cards that are compatible with CRT_Emudriver of course). 

I think you'd be better off to hold the video card as a constant and let the modelines be the variable.  I'd use a card with no minimum dotclock, so you have the widest possible range of timing values at your disposal, meaning a Radeon 9250, X300-X600, or HD4XXX series.  Just try adjusting timing values methodically in Arcade_OSD and see what you can learn from the response.

Have you read this thread?

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131980.0.html

I think Wordsworth may be right in that that transcoder is meant for 31kHz and up.  One ray of hope is that it has yet to be tested with CRT_Emudriver.  Both Wordsworth and Notbillcosby were using Soft15kHz, which I would no longer consider worthwhile anyhow, given the advantages of CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME.

if it doesn't work, I understand these transcoders make halfway decent HTPC interfaces

I'd prefer HDMI for an HTPC, but I suppose component may be needed for some projectors.

I couldn't drop the cash on the Audio Authority transcoder (which I really want eventually.)

Do you mean the Crescendo TC-1600?  That's the high-end one I'm using.  The Audio Authority transcoder has yet to be confirmed one way or the other.  If you want to investigate it, it would be appreciated, but just know you'd be a guinea pig with that one too.

Really hoping I can make this work on my shoe-string budget

If you need a discount transcoder, look into the CVS-287.  See my post further up the page.  The advantages of the TC-1600 aren't really that useful if you're not using game consoles in addition to MAME.

I plan on getting started on this tonight.  Mind if I bounce a couple thoughts of you while I go through the process?  Thanks again for opening my eyes to this possibility.

I'll answer any questions I'm able to.  Thank you for experimenting.   

[wordsworth]

BTW I have tried the VCHD300 with CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME and I had the same issues. the720k if you can get that transcoder working at 15KHz then I am all for it as I still have mine and would love to get some use out of it but I have a gut feeling this is an issue that, barring some kind of hardware modification, the VCHD300 cannot overcome.

I'm on a tight budget as well and I had a thought the other day about trying to make a clone of the CVS-287. I can't find a schematic anywhere for it but looking at the PCB it doesn't seem that bad to reverse engineer. It would require a bit of work but if we put our heads together we might make them for $10 instead of buying them for $50. As I proofread that last sentence it seems almost silly to bother with it to save $40 but I'll throw it out there anyway.

[the720k]

Hey guys.  I didn't have a chance to work on it much at all last night, as the weather was ridiculously cold, and I had a ton of household chores to get caught up on.  I did plug the transcoder into my MAME machine and wound up with nothing but scrambled video/three distorted representations of the screen, indicating I'm not outputting an acceptable scan rate.  I then remembered that I'm running Win7x64 on that cabinet, which is not exactly an ideal test environment.  With that in mind, I'm currently installing XP on a discarded computer from work before I leave for the day.  I did install an ATI Radeon 6750 card into the PC, though I have an X300 at home as well, amongst several other vintage varieties. 

Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to see any difference by trying different graphics cards.  As long as CRT_Emudriver is set up properly, the signal generated with a given modeline should theoretically be no different, regardless of what video card is used (assuming we're only considering cards that are compatible with CRT_Emudriver of course).

Yeah, you're probably right.  Will have a crack at it with CRT_Emudriver, though I see wordsworth has already tried.

Have you read this thread?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131980.0.html

 

Yes, a few times, and I'm happy to see that wordsworth has chimed in on this.  I will be using the current thread and his thread as references while I play around with this transcoder. 

Do you mean the Crescendo TC-1600?  That's the high-end one I'm using.  The Audio Authority transcoder has yet to be confirmed one way or the other.  If you want to investigate it, it would be appreciated, but just know you'd be a guinea pig with that one too.

Doh.  I actually meant the CVS-287.  The Crescendo would be fantastic someday if I ever get the basement cleared enough to set up a console section next to the arcade games.  Maybe one of these days.  I would like to give the Audio Authority one a shot one day as well.  I love squashing, or at least identifying bugs.  And the transcoders can always be repurposed into something else if they aren't suitable for MAME.  I am always coming up with different projects, and a tinkerer can't have too many tools.

I'll answer any questions I'm able to.  Thank you for experimenting.

Thank you for replying! 

BTW I have tried the VCHD300 with CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME and I had the same issues. the720k if you can get that transcoder working at 15KHz then I am all for it as I still have mine and would love to get some use out of it but I have a gut feeling this is an issue that, barring some kind of hardware modification, the VCHD300 cannot overcome.

I'm on a tight budget as well and I had a thought the other day about trying to make a clone of the CVS-287. I can't find a schematic anywhere for it but looking at the PCB it doesn't seem that bad to reverse engineer. It would require a bit of work but if we put our heads together we might make them for $10 instead of buying them for $50. As I proofread that last sentence it seems almost silly to bother with it to save $40 but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Well, that's strike two, I suppose.  I do wonder, though:  Have you decased the transcoder yet?   I see that in addition to the H-pos pot, there are four other pots surface-mounted to the board.  I'm going to go ahead and guess that they are RGB cutoffs plus a possible sync pot of some sort, but will check them out in further detail tonight if I can get out to the garage.

Cool idea on the CVS-287 clone, but you might be right - might be a lot of effort for little payout.  Still would be a cool project!

[rCadeGaming]

BTW I have tried the VCHD300 with CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME and I had the same issues.

Ah, sorry if you already told me.  I was just going off what I saw re-reading some things.

I'm on a tight budget as well and I had a thought the other day about trying to make a clone of the CVS-287. I can't find a schematic anywhere for it but looking at the PCB it doesn't seem that bad to reverse engineer. It would require a bit of work but if we put our heads together we might make them for $10 instead of buying them for $50.

You can make an RGB to YPbPr component transcoder using some very inexpensive components.  Start with a color matrix conversion circuit.  Try looking here, starting with page 7:

http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an57fa.pdf

Then you'll need to combine your horizontal and vertical sync to composite and combine that with luminance.  After that, you can start adding things like color level adjustment.  Reversing engineering the CVS-287 isn't totally necessary, but it may give you some ideas to add to the mix.

I did install an ATI Radeon 6750 card into the PC, though I have an X300 at home as well, amongst several other vintage varieties.

A 6750 isn't supported by CRT_Emudriver at all.  Use the X300 or one of the others I mentioned.

Have you decased the transcoder yet?   I see that in addition to the H-pos pot, there are four other pots surface-mounted to the board.  I'm going to go ahead and guess that they are RGB cutoffs plus a possible sync pot of some sort, but will check them out in further detail tonight if I can get out to the garage.

You're probably right.  Probably RGB cut-offs or level adjustments.  Sync adjustments could include level, pulse width, or delay (h only).

[the720k]

Well, it turns out the X300 I thought I had was a 6670, but I did have an old Radeon 7500 PCI, and that worked fine with CRT_Emudriver.  I barely scratched the surface with experimenting with different modelines outside of trying every preset modeline in Arcade_OSD.  Not one single stable image so far, but I kind of expected this going into it.  I'll be re-reading the threads and trying some of the ideas posted there to see if I can make any difference, along with tweaking the pots on the board. 

I can say that I did adjust one of the unmarked pots on the transcoder, and I did see that it had an effect on the sync.  Adjusting it somewhat stabilized a 640x240 modeline, but not by much.  I'll try to get some pictures taken tonight or tomorrow and show anyone who cares what I mean.  Oddly enough, adjusting the rest of the pots had no effect on the colors, so I'm not quite sure what their functions are.  I'll be experimenting with them a little more tonight.

wordsworth:  I see what you mean about this box being unlikely to work outside of its intended specs (the STB it was designed for.)  Still, though, I wonder if any stability can occur with enough tweaking of the onboard pots and Arcade_OSD settings.  Even if there is a required hardware mod to make it happen, I wonder if it could be done.

So it does look like it'll be a little while before I get to enjoy native resolutions on this gorgeous TV, but even with composite S-video, the picture blows regular RCA composite out of the water.  Scanlines and all.  But if it can be better, dammit, I'm determined to make it so sooner or later.

[rCadeGaming]

The 7500 is supported, but may have problems with low dotclocks.  Sounds like you understand the issue if you're trying 640x240, but it will limit the range of modelines you can test and it might add another confounding variable if it's not clear what the minimum safe frequency is.  Best to use one of the preferred cards if possible.

[rCadeGaming]

Answered some questions about refresh rate, resolutions, and timing values.  Thought I should post a link here for archiving purposes:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138486.0.html

[the720k]

Very cool.  Thanks, man.  I'm probably going to be working out in the garage tonight, so I'll see if I can work on it some more this evening.  Understood on the issue with the 7500.  I have several HD 4000 series cards, but they're all dead.  I may be able to get my hands on one that needs to be replaced in the next couple days. 

[MeatballB]

I finally got back to my Arcade project and I've got just about everything setup and running, but I've run into a problem with distortion of my video image on my TV.  Here's my setup.

VGA Output on a Connect 3D Radeon x300 PCI Card (Model 3003)
 ->
VGA Monitor Cable
 ->
Crescendo Systems TC1500 Transcoder
 ->
RGB Component Cable In through Video 4 Jacks
 ->
KV-27FS120 TV Decased and mounted in a frame I built...

I've got WinXP 64 and the 9.3 Catalyst version of the CRT_Emudriver installed.  I've got the machine and Front End and everything up and working fine, but when I boot up attached to the Sony I get all sorts of distortion (ranging from 4 duplicate squished desktops across the screen to a completely diagonally offset image)  depending on the resolution I try.  I can't go lower than 800x600 but if I go into the driver settings I can list all modes and have also tied 720x480 and 640x480 with no luck (all at 60Hz).

Am I missing a step with resolution somewhere or do I possibly have a bad component somewhere in the mix?  My gut is telling me I need to push the resolution lower, but I can't for the life of me find anywhere to get it lower than 640x480

[Timstuff]

A cheaper option than either of those, but one that still works very well, is a CVS-287 RGB SCART to component transcoder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YPbPr-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/370695549217?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item564f2d3121

These work well, I have tested one personally.  However, to use it you'll have to make a VGA to SCART adapter.  If you can solder, it's very easy.  Just get a female VGA connector (also called a female DB-15HD) and hood, and a male SCART connector and hood.  Look up the VGA and SCART pinouts, connect red to red, green to green, blue to blue, and ground to ground.  Horizontal and vertical sync from the VGA connector must be combined to make composite sync.  This is done by running each through a 1N4148 diode and connecting them together.  Then connect that to the composite sync connection in the SCART connector.

If I get one of those SCART to YPbPr converters, would I be able to get by with a pre-made SCART to VGA cable like the one below, or is making a cable myself the only option?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SCART-TO-VGA-LEAD-PIN/dp/B001GUJBQ2/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1396674842&sr=1-2&keywords=scart+to+vga

I can handle wiring up a cable myself if I have to, although I would prefer being able to buy one since it's a more elegant solution and less hassle.

[MeatballB]

Am I missing a step with resolution somewhere or do I possibly have a bad component somewhere in the mix?  My gut is telling me I need to push the resolution lower, but I can't for the life of me find anywhere to get it lower than 640x480

Well, I partially figured out my issue.  Since my card has a VGA and DVI port I'm guessing the DVI port is considered the 'primary' port because I threw a DVI/VGA adapter on that port and used to to connect to the Sony and the distortion went away.

I am still getting some 'jittering' of the picture and the image is a bit off center though.  Plus I think when I decased it I might have disconnected the remote sensor.  I can point the remote at the back boards and it works, but I can't seem to see where the actual sensor is.  I'd like to fish that to the front of the tube so I can use it without having to pop the TV out.

[Yeltsew7]

However, to use it you'll have to make a VGA to SCART adapter.  If you can solder, it's very easy.  Just get a female VGA connector (also called a female DB-15HD) and hood, and a male SCART connector and hood.  Look up the VGA and SCART pinouts, connect red to red, green to green, blue to blue, and ground to ground.  Horizontal and vertical sync from the VGA connector must be combined to make composite sync.  This is done by running each through a 1N4148 diode and connecting them together.  Then connect that to the composite sync connection in the SCART connector.

I have been doing a little research about combining the sync wires.

Would this http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/scartdd.png work for the VGA -> SCART adapter, or does it have to be more complicated like this http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/syncbox.gif ?  Why does the first one have so many diodes and stuff?  I don't know much about this sort of thing, so I am asking a lot of obvious questions probably.

Also, the sticky (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,77370.0.html) doesn't say anything about diodes or anything for the sync.  What it does say is that you need to add power.  Does this only apply when you are plugging it right in, not with the transcoder?

Finally, since I am lazy and don't know much about electrical wiring, would one of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-RGB-ARCADEVGA-TO-SCART-CABLE-ADAPTER-EUROCONECTOR-for-JAMMA-system-/331166305955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d1b0ccea3
or these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-VGA-SVGA-Male-Female-Projector-Plasma-HD-Cable-1M-1-5M-1-8M-2M-2-5M-3M-/330701716131?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item4cff5bbaa3
or these http://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-RGB-TO-SCART-2-METERS-SOUND-JACK-EUROCONECTOR-for-JAMMA-ARCADE-system-/331169858050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d1b430202 work?

If so, which one would be best?

[adder]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,77370.0.html doesn't say anything about diodes or anything for the sync.

you dont need to use any diodes
sync: the way the cable is wired up means it is composite sync

What it does say is that you need to add power.  Does this only apply when you are plugging it right in, not with the transcoder?

for plugging directly into tv scart socket yes. i cant answer about transcoders as i dont use them
the power (between 9.5v to 12v) which is sent to scart pin 8 tells the tv to go into AV mode
the power (between 1v and 3v) which is sent to scart pin 16 tells the tv we want RGB mode

Finally, since I am lazy and don't know much about electrical wiring, would one of these do:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-RGB-ARCADEVGA-TO-SCART-CABLE-ADAPTER-EUROCONECTOR-for-JAMMA-system-/331166305955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d1b0ccea3

as long as he has wired it up correctly, yes. perhaps email him first and ask what wiring diagram he used.
i would expect he is using a 100ohm resistor in the circuit (to get the approx 2v needed for scart pin 16). i wouldnt worry about diodes, my cable doesnt use any, and has worked on about 10 completely different scart tv brands/chassis (examples, sony trinitron, panasonic, toshiba, sharp, ferguson, beko, bush, and some others). the colours/image sharpness/quality looks great (to me anyway ), and is stable etc

ps. if you do use one of these cables, personally i needed to do two things in windows xp in order for it to work properly:

1. you have to tell your ATI gfx card to output composite sync, as it wont be by default. you can do this by selecting the composite sync output checkbox in the catalyst control center, or instead, just download and run a program called winmodelines; for the tickbox which says, CSYNC VGA1 VGA2, tick the VGA1 box, apply and reboot. a change is made to registry, and your ati gfx setup in your pc will now be running in composite sync mode

2. (i had to do this, i dont know if others have to also) .. for all my modelines, example:
Modeline "320x224@57.6Hz 15.7KHz (58Hz)" 6.630 320 336 368 424 224 239 242 272 -hsync -vsync
i have to change the -hsync and -vsync to +hsync and +vsync in order to get the correct picture on my tv. not sure why.  perhaps some people have to do this and others dont. i would say if you are not getting a stable/working picture, try it. one easy way to do it all at once is, when you have all the modelines added to your registry which you want to use: launch the winmodelines program, and you will see the list of all of your modelines. highlight and select them all, choose 'cut' so they are removed from the window. now press 'apply' in winmodelines so they are removed but still safe in your windows clipboard. now (hoping at this point you dont get a power failure)... open a new text document in windows, paste all the modelines you 'cut' earlier, then.. do a find and replace.. search for:
-hsync -vsync
 .. choose to replace with:
+hsync +vsync
  .. now, from the new text file, copy and paste those fixed modelines back into the winmodelines window, choose 'apply' ... reboot. done.

ps. Rob why do our posts end up so long      

[rCadeGaming]

Meatball, the components in your chain are excellent (barring any issues with which is the primary display port) so it must be a software problem.

The IR receiver for the remote is located on the little PCB with the front buttons.  It should be easy to relocate, I'll be needing to do that on my cabinet.

Can you describe what you mean by jittering?

[rCadeGaming]

Tim, I can't say whether that cable will work without knowing how it's wired inside.  It depends how it handles sync.  You need a VGA to SCART cable which just combines H and V to make composite sync.  A true SCART to VGA cable would use a sync separator to split composite back into H and V.

[rCadeGaming]

Yeltsew, those diagrams are for creating perfectly combined sync with the exact right levels and pulse widths and all that.  Most displays/processors are not that picky though. 

Sometimes you can get away with just connecting the H and V sync wires directly together.  As Jadder says, the diodes might not be totally necessary, I just used them for an extra bit of protection.  If you combine the H and V sync wires you shouldn't need to tell the computer to output composite sync though.  Jadder, if you do, it could be due to the separate sync signals not being combined well enough, i.e. not using the diodes.

One of those VGA to SCART cables may work depending on how it handles sync combination.  You don't need to provide any power to the switching pins for this transcoder.  As Jadder says, that's for actual SCART TV's. 

You also won't need to output positive-going sync with this transcoder, negative-going is generally standard.

ps. Rob why do our posts end up so long      

I guess because this stuff is interesting and we can't help but ramble on about it.   

[Yeltsew7]

What if I tell it to output composite sync, would that be more stable than combing the wires physically twisting them together?  Also, where do you think I should pick up a male SCART end piece?

[rCadeGaming]

No, not if you use the diodes.  They're super cheap.  The trouble of getting composite sync in all of your modelines isn't worth saving two diodes, and you might not even be able to get composite sync out of some graphics cards.

I run all my old game consoles in RGB using RGB SCART cables, but I chop off the SCART ends and replace them with DB-15HD ("VGA") connectors, so I ended up with plenty of spare male connectors.  They have nice easy to open hoods and nice solder-able connection points.  I get all my SCART cables from this eBay seller:

http://www.ebay.com/usr/retro_console_accessories

If you're not interested in RGB cables for consoles, this the cheapest thing I could find:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5M-Black-20-Pin-Scart-Male-to-Male-Connector-Cable-/310642636469?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item4853be76b5

That would probably work just as well, it looks like the same type of housing.

[Yeltsew7]

Combine syncs like this, just instead of resistors use those diodes?
http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/vga2euro.gif

What if I get this and just chop off the end? Would that work for a SCART hood?
http://m.ebay.com/itm?itemId=111321450935

[Yeltsew7]

Remember that Phillips TV from my thread?  Well the service menu is crap.  I have been looking for a Sony.  I found a KV-27FS100. Is this suitable for MAME or should I look for a KV-27FS120?  Here is the link http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/ele/4408946997.html

[rCadeGaming]

Combine syncs like this, just instead of resistors use those diodes?
http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/vga2euro.gif

Yup, use 1N4148 diodes and make sure the negative side (cathode, the side with the stripe) is connected to the Y connection.

What if I get this and just chop off the end? Would that work for a SCART hood?
http://m.ebay.com/itm?itemId=111321450935

Yeah, looks like the same clam shell setup as the ones I have.  You unscrew the plastic nut where the wire comes out and the clam shell will unfold.

Remember that Phillips TV from my thread?  Well the service menu is crap.  I have been looking for a Sony.  I found a KV-27FS100. Is this suitable for MAME or should I look for a KV-27FS120?  Here is the link http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/ele/4408946997.html

I haven't used one of those personally, but it's likely very similar to a KV-27FS120, it's just one chassis model earlier (BA-5 vs. BA-6).  It's worth picking up to try.

[Yeltsew7]

This?

or this?

I hope these are clear.

[rCadeGaming]

First one.  Nothing wrong with being explicitly clear.

[Yeltsew7]

I got a KV-27FS120!  It has a few issues, black bars on the sides (which could be nothing) and it is slightly clearer in the middle, just enough to drive me crazy.  I'm sure nothing I can't fix. I will start a thread about it tomorrow.

[rCadeGaming]

Try the focus knob.   

[Yeltsew7]

Where is that?  Is it on the chassis?  I haven't decased it yet.

pardon my stupidity

[rCadeGaming]

It's on the chassis on the flyback.  Be careful sticking your hands in there while it's running.

[Yeltsew7]

My friend made the mistake of poking around inside one while it was on. 

Also, I posted a thread in this forum with some pictures/videos of it.

[Dungeonsdeep]

This thread has been very helpful for a newbie like myself. I have a question though.

Let's say I decide to ditch my worn out arcade monitor (it's BAD), and go with a CRT television. If I don't go for one of the Sony newer flat models mentioned earlier in the thread, and just use any old CRT base model Sanyo, Panasonic...whatever, via COMPOSITE; How bad will the picture quality be? I mean, will it just plain suck? Would I be better off using an LCD?

I am scouring Craigslist for these Sony flat tube with components, and believe I found a few, but it's hard to be certain, so I am contemplating just using any old thing that comes my way.

Thanks again!

[rCadeGaming]

Yes, it will just plain suck.  A CRT driven with composite will still have the advantage of less input lag than an LCD, but you aren't nearly using the potential of the CRT.  Keep in mind that a PC over composite is much worse than an old console over composite, because in the case of the PC you'll be locked into scaling everything to 480i@60Hz.  Not only will you be losing native res, scanlines, etc., you'll have the additional issues caused by failing to match the games' native refresh rates.  (If composite is even an option, I'm assuming this is a MAME cab you're talking about?)

You can get what you need on Craigslist.  Just hold out for a 15kHz tube with component inputs.  Don't pay over $50.

Also, what's wrong with the arcade monitor?  Could it be fixed, or is it badly burned-in?

[Dungeonsdeep]

Yes, it will just plain suck.  A CRT driven with composite will still have the advantage of less input lag than an LCD, but you aren't nearly using the potential of the CRT.  Keep in mind that a PC over composite is much worse than an old console over composite, because in the case of the PC you'll be locked into scaling everything to 480i@60Hz.  Not only will you be losing native res, scanlines, etc., you'll have the additional issues caused by failing to match the games' native refresh rates.  (If composite is even an option, I'm assuming this is a MAME cab you're talking about?)

You can get what you need on Craigslist.  Just hold out for a 15kHz tube with component inputs.  Don't pay over $50.

Also, what's wrong with the arcade monitor?  Could it be fixed, or is it badly burned-in?

I just realized you responded, rCade. And thank you for that.

I actually traded the cab that had the monitor in it with a forum member here. I wanted to make a MAME cab. He had a SFII cab, I had an old Williams cab he wanted to restore, so it was happy on both sides. The current cab doesn't have a monitor, but from what I have read, arcade monitors are finicky with MAME, because of the different resolutions of games. Which is why I thought maybe a TV would be a better route.

If I get a TV, and just use component inputs WITHOUT an expensive transcoder, will it look bad? Thanks!

[rCadeGaming]

Arcade monitors can be set up just as well as a TV for MAME.  The downside is just the expense.  When you say you've heard they can be finicky, I think you might be referring to the danger of feeding them out of range signals.  There are several solutions to protect yourself from this, and the problematic resolutions are usually from BIOS and the default Windows desktop.  You wouldn't have problems getting an arcade monitor to display the actual arcade games in MAME.

If I get a TV, and just use component inputs WITHOUT an expensive transcoder, will it look bad?

The question is how you will use the component inputs without a transcoder.  Although it's theoretically possible there are graphics cards with a component TV-out port capable of displaying custom resolutions, no one here has yet confirmed the existence of one.  Your picture will be clearer and cleaner than composite, but you'll still be scaling everything to 480i or 480p or more, and have all the same problems as mentioned before (losing native res, losing scanlines, additional issues caused by incorrect refresh rate, etc.)

The transcoder doesn't have to be expensive.  Look back two or three pages in this thread and find my post on the current availability of transcoders for a cheap but effective option.

[Dungeonsdeep]

Arcade monitors can be set up just as well as a TV for MAME.  The downside is just the expense.  When you say you've heard they can be finicky, I think you might be referring to the danger of feeding them out of range signals.  There are several solutions to protect yourself from this, and the problematic resolutions are usually from BIOS and the default Windows desktop.  You wouldn't have problems getting an arcade monitor to display the actual arcade games in MAME.

If I get a TV, and just use component inputs WITHOUT an expensive transcoder, will it look bad?

The question is how you will use the component inputs without a transcoder.  Although it's theoretically possible there are graphics cards with a component TV-out port capable of displaying custom resolutions, no one here has yet confirmed the existence of one.  Your picture will be clearer and cleaner than composite, but you'll still be scaling everything to 480i or 480p or more, and have all the same problems as mentioned before (losing native res, losing scanlines, additional issues caused by incorrect refresh rate, etc.)

The transcoder doesn't have to be expensive.  Look back two or three pages in this thread and find my post on the current availability of transcoders for a cheap but effective option.

So, an RGB>Component type cable just won't cut it?

I will check out the transcoders you are talking about. I didn't realize there were less expensive options.

And yes, I was referring to Arcade monitors switching between different ranges of signals. Another thing that confuses me, is what if an old low res monitor is being fed a newer, higher resolution game? Will it be able to display it?

[rCadeGaming]

RGB and YPbPr component communicate colorspace differently.  Some electronics are needed to translate between the two, so no a straight cable will not work. 

RGB and component are not just types of cables.  The actual video signals use different formats.

If it's a 15kHz arcade monitor, it can only display a 15kHz signal, around 240 lines progressive or 480 interlaced.  If you feed it something too far outside it's range, the best case scenario is garbage on the screen.  Worst case is damage to the monitor.  I think all of this has been covered here.  Please read the whole thread, and research wherever else you can.

[polyrhythmic81]

After reading through this thread, I picked up an ArcadeVGA (was quickly frustrated by trying to get CRT_Emudriver to work on Windows 7) and a CVS287 transcoder.  I made a cable, connected both syncs from the VGA end to the composite pin on the SCART end, and am having some problems.  The TV is a Panasonic CT-27D10B.

As I click through the different resolutions in windows, the first inch or two at the top of the screen is warped/wavy looking.  The other major issue is that for resolutions with more vertical lines (~288), the images loses stability and rolls vertically.  I'm wondering if there are settings I can make in the TV or if it simply won't cooperate with the signal being sent to it...

[rCadeGaming]

Do you mean 288 active lines?  If you're trying run vertical games on a horizontal monitor, it's probably not going to happen in native res on a 15kHz display.  On the other hand, if you mean total lines, it's still not surprising that a US can't handle it, what are your horizontal and vertical scan rates at that resolution?  You're going to have to make compromises for the few games designed to run at 50Hz.

As for the cable, there are instructions in this thread to on how to make a better adapter for the CVS287.  Doing that would rule that out as a problem.

The other thing is that I'm not interested in trying to provide support for an ArcadeVGA setup, I think it's a poor alternative to CRT_Emudriver.  There is plenty of support in the GroovyMAME section to help you get CRT_Emu working in 7.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, but it will take some work to get proper native-res MAME running.  I hope you stick with it.

[Yeltsew7]

I'm back again, and I don't want to make a new thread.  Do you think that an HD5450 would be able to run CRT_emudriver?  I picked one of those up FOR FREE!!!.  It seems to work, but I haven't tested it, because I plugged my KV-27FS120 in last week and it was REALLY messed up, and my remote is broken.  I guess that means that I need to pick up a 4TH TV for this project.  I saw a REALLY big Sony the other day.  I think it was a KV-32FS100.  CRTs seem to be getting rarer and rarer in my area at least.

[rCadeGaming]

IIRC, nothing newer than 4XXX will work with Windows, but it might in Linux.  Don't quote me on that though.

I wouldn't recommend a 32" for anything but a showcase cabinet, they're just too big.  27" is pushing it.  I'm going to space myself as far back from my 27" as I can by having a deep control panel and tilting the monitor back a lot.  I've mocked up test setups and these things hurt your eyes if you're too close.  That, and the weight of the tube.

[rCadeGaming]

The website for Crescendo Systems, maker of the TC1600 VGA to component transcoder, is currently down.  Looks like the domain is up for sale.  I was sorry to see this.  I'm not sure what happened, but I know that the "company" was actually a one-man operation run by an enthusiast named Kim Beumer.  His products and support were world class, but my guess is that it was not his day job.  He could have called it quits due lack of business (he served a tiny niche market), or he could have just had some more important life obligations.  If anyone has any idea what happened, please let me know.  I have spoken with Kim a few times via email, but the address I have is "@crescendo-systems.com" so I don't think that'll be of any use now.  Anyone who still wants a TC1600 could try contracting BYOAC member notbillcosby.  He wanted to sell his a while ago, and I don't think he did yet.  Aside from that, I guess my only recommendation for now is the CVS-287.  There are also some dedicated IC's available for building your own transcoder circuit, which I'll probably look into eventually.

[theillest]

...UPDATE 11/14/2014:  The Crescendo Systems website is currently down.  Looks like the domain is up for sale.  I was sorry to see this.  I'm not sure what happened, but I know that the "company" was actually a one-man operation run by an enthusiast named Kim Beumer.  His products and support were world class, but my guess is that it was not his day job.  He could have called it quits due lack of business (he served a tiny niche market), or he could have just had some more important life obligations.  If anyone has any idea what happened, please let me know.  I have spoken with Kim a few times via email, but the address I have is "@crescendo-systems.com" so I don't think that'll be of any use now.  Anyone who still wants a TC1600 could try contracting BYOAC member notbillcosby.  He wanted to sell his a while ago, and I don't think he did yet.  Aside from that, I guess my only recommendation for now is the CVS-287, below.  There are also some dedicated IC's available for building your own transcoder circuit, which I'll probably look into eventually.
*****

A cheaper option than either of those, but one that still works very well, is a CVS-287 RGB SCART to component transcoder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YPbPr-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/370695549217?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item564f2d3121

These work well, I have tested one personally.  However, to use it you'll have to make a VGA to SCART adapter.  If you can solder, it's very easy.  Just get a female VGA connector (also called a female DB-15HD) and hood, and a male SCART connector and hood.  Look up the VGA and SCART pinouts, connect red to red, green to green, blue to blue, and ground to ground.  Horizontal and vertical sync from the VGA connector must be combined to make composite sync.  This is done by running each through a 1N4148 diode and connecting them together.  Then connect that to the composite sync connection in the SCART connector.

There are also transcoders available from RCA, Audio Authority, and JS technologies, but it hasn't been confirmed that these will work consistently with arcade resolutions, so they should be avoided.  Other users have actually had a lot of problems with the RCA unit; the other two are just unconfirmed.  I have personally tested the TC1500/1600 and the CVS-287 extensively and haven't found any problems.

If I get the CVS-287 and don't know how to solder, can I buy one of these guys?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-2M-Scart-RGB-To-VGA-SVGA-15-PIN-Female-HD-Cable-Lead-For-TV-Plasma-LCD-Monitor-/360953093876

[rCadeGaming]

Sorry for the late reply.  Based on the information given, it's hard to tell.  It depends how the change from separate to composite sync is handled.  It's advertised as SCART to VGA (the opposite direction from what you need), so I'm guessing it could be a problem.  Best answer?  If you're into video games/arcade games, learn to solder.

[theillest]

Sorry for the late reply.  Based on the information given, it's hard to tell.  It depends how the change from separate to composite sync is handled.  It's advertised as SCART to VGA (the opposite direction from what you need), so I'm guessing it could be a problem.  Best answer?  If you're into video games/arcade games, learn to solder.

Fair enough, thanks for all your feedback man. 

[helyblackstorm]

Rcadegaming

Thanks for tip.

The image in native resolution using converter CVS287 + VGA to SCART was fantastic in my friend's TVs:

SAMSUNG DNIE 21"



SAMSUNG DNIE 29" Vertical for Shoot 'em ups



Been a long time I and my friend was looking for a way to put my NTSC TV in 15 Hz and thanks to your tip we finely got.

Once again thank you.

[Yeltsew7]

IIRC, nothing newer than 4XXX will work with Windows, but it might in Linux.  Don't quote me on that though.

I wouldn't recommend a 32" for anything but a showcase cabinet, they're just too big.  27" is pushing it.  I'm going to space myself as far back from my 27" as I can by having a deep control panel and tilting the monitor back a lot.  I've mocked up test setups and these things hurt your eyes if you're too close.  That, and the weight of the tube.

Thanks for your 2 cents, I might drop another $20 on a 24" Sony.  My KV-27FS120 is kill, don't know what is wrong with it.  It's probably bad caps, but I REALLY don't feel like taking them all off, buying equivalent ones, and re-soldering them. The ATI card is just completely broken. I also didn't plan on using Linux on my cab either, just for convenience. I'll look for the card you recommend on eBay or CL.
My project is pretty much just on hold right now, because of the TV, and because of lack of funds.

[cool_factor]

Been researching til my eyes hurt....  Ive got MAME up and running on one of my PCs but now am going to make the leap to building a arcade cabinet and using a Toshiba 27a42 27" tv with either an ATI X600 or ATI HD4350 and the CVS-287 hack as described further up using GroovyMAME, the CRTemu_drivers, and I havent chosen a Front end yet, computer will be fine and have a stripped down XP install on it... I hope Im on the right path....

[rCadeGaming]

Thanks for tip.

No prob! 

My project is pretty much just on hold right now, because of the TV, and because of lack of funds.

Mine has been on hold indefinitely!  I WILL get it done someday though.  Hope you get back to it sometime. 

I hope Im on the right path....

Seems like it!   

TV:  This may work well, but I'd see if you can get into a service menu to correct geometry.
Graphics card:  HD4350.  An HD4xxx series card is required for Windows 7.
CVS-287:  Will work great as long as the cabling is wired correctly.
Front-End:  Couldn't tell you about them.  I know Calamity advises against Hyperspin.  Check the GM section for alternatives.
OS:  I would recommend 7 x64 from the standpoint of speed, stability, lag, driver/software/etc availability, better support moving forward

[ohnoes]

I have the exact TV as cool_factor mentioned, however I'm leaning towards getting an HD 4350 that has a 7-pin s-video, so I can use an s-video to component dongle to connect it to the TV. I've looked all over, and it seems using a 7-pin w/ a dongle did help a couple people connect their PCs to TVs, but I haven't been able to confirm if they've been able to use 15khz with that setup (the worry being that s-video out locks everything at 640x480i - but it's not the same as the 4-pin, so...). The card I'm looking at: https://www.visiontek.com/images/datasheets/900273.pdf and the dongle: https://www.visiontek.com/cables-accessories/for-pcs/7-pin-to-hdtv-component-cable-detail.html

It's been crazy researching this. Almost considering just getting a PC CRT monitor since that'd be the least complicated option, even if it's at the expense of losing 15khz.

Edit: It appears this person is going through a setup similar to mine and is going through the process of fixing it: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,143229.msg1485541.html#msg1485541

[rCadeGaming]

The s-video out will definitely lock you into 480i.  Not worth using in my opinion.  Also, stay away from Visiontek cards in general, as I think they've had reported problems with CRT_Emudriver.  I use ASUS HD4350's and they work great.

[Yeltsew7]

Also, the remote for that KV-27FS120 is busted. I don't know what's wrong with it.  I cleaned the contacts but no buttons work.  That kind of kills trying to get into the service menu. The universal remotes that I hve didn't have the right buttons to access it either.  Do you know of any way to get in to the service menu on that TV without the original remote?

[rCadeGaming]

Universal remotes probably won't work.  All the Sony remotes from that era were pretty interchangeable though.  I have the following remote models here, and they all work: RM-Y173, RM-Y194, RM-Y195, RM-Y197.  Just search any of those on eBay and pick one up cheap.  I like the first two because they're about half the size, and still have everything needed for the service menu.

[tiobolinha]

This is GREAT stuff here guys. It seems you have all the milestones ready for us to get native resolutions with component in CRT TVs.

I have a couple of questions though:

1) It seems that TC1500 and TC1600 a pretty impossible to find at resonable prices these days. Is CVS287 the ONLY option? I'd rather convert directly from VGA to component if possible. Are there any good options?

2) Is there a VGA-SCART cable available to be bought in ebay with the correct wiring? Just to make things easier? I don't think it will be easy to find SCART connectors in Brazilian electronic stores to build the cable in accordance with rCadeGaming scheme. We really don't use SCART in here. 

Guys i really appreciate all the help you are giving to make this dream real. I'm sick of distorced, streched images. I want to play my games the way I used to play in the 80's. It will be so great to make this thing work.

Thank you.

[rCadeGaming]

1.  The TC1600 and CVS-287 are the ones I've personally tested, and found to have quality results.  TC1600's are no longer being made because the enthusiast who was producing them, Kim Beumer, sadly passed away late last year.  I just found this out recently; very sad.  He was a great guy from what I knew of the quality of his work, support, and conversations via email.

...TC1600 a pretty impossible to find at resonable prices these days.

Do you mean you can find them at all?  Where?

Understand that the CVS-287 directly converts RGB to YPrPb component just the same as a TC1600.  Using SCART is a difference of connector style in this case, not a difference in video format.  It's probably not the of the same quality as a TC1600, but with the TV's and resolutions we're concerned with, I doubt I could tell the difference in a side-by-side comparison.

Another option is to build your own transcoder circuit with some specialized IC's.  I will be trying this eventually, and can provide links now if anyone is interested.

2.  Not that I know of.  We don't use SCART in the US either, but you can still buy an RGB SCART cable for an old game console to get the SCART connector you'll need to build the adapter.  That's what I did.

[mameCab123]

Ok I just got a Sony KV-24FV300 which looks good and limited to 480i.

Can I just cut up an existing vga cable I have and buy this?

http://www.amazon.com/1-5M-Scart-Adapter-Cable-Black/dp/B00BQBYDOG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1423944779&sr=1-1&keywords=scart+cable

Then use your diagram for vga > scart

Then buy this-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/221156873851

I already have a working computer with crt_emudriver outputting 15khz mame games into a arcade monitor.

Thanks for this thread, very exciting stuff for way cheaper than arcade monitors.

[rCadeGaming]

The transcoder looks right, it's a CVS-287 or clone.  The cable looks like it has the connector you want too.  Unscrew the nut, open the clamshell, and start soldering.

[tiobolinha]

Thank you for repplying guys.

I'll do what you said to build the cable. The diodes and VGA-RGB connectors should be easy to find in here.

I had found one TC in ebay a few weeks ago. I don't remember the exact model as I was researching like crazy those days. Anyway it's not there anymore.

I would be interested in building the conversor using the ICs you mentioned rCadeGaming. Do you already have a scheme for that?

Thank you.

[rCadeGaming]

I've attached the references I have on it.  See the following schematics:

Linear Technologies - LT1399 Applications.pdf:  Fig. 8, p.14 (pdf p.3)
Linear Technologies - Video Circuit Collection.pdf:  Fig. 15, p.8
Linear Technologies - Video Circuit Collection.pdf:  Fig. 16, p.9

You can also check the datasheets for any of the IC's shown.

Note that none of those three methods provide sync on luma on the output, so that will have to be added.  There's a note about this in the circuit collection pdf near the end of p.7.

[tiobolinha]

Thank you for your repplies rCadeGaming.

I found this hardware called UMSA at an european site. http://arcadeforge.net/UMSA/UMSA-Ultimate-SCART-Adapter::57.html

This would be an alternative for the SCART - VGA cable we are building. Right?

I already bought the SCART cables to be racked in ebay. Unfortunatelly it takes like a month for then to get here as they come from the U.K.

rCadeGaming: I have a doubt about the scheme you put in this post. Some people say the diodes are not necessary, some people say they are and others say they are optional but the image will look better with then. Could you explain?

Thank you again. I can't wait for my cables to arrive!
Regards

[dmckean]

So which 19/20 inch Sony TVs should I be looking for on Craigslist? Most people on this thread seem to be using 24-27" monitors.

[rCadeGaming]

I found this hardware called UMSA at an european site. http://arcadeforge.net/UMSA/UMSA-Ultimate-SCART-Adapter::57.html

This would be an alternative for the SCART - VGA cable we are building. Right?

That may work if you use it like this:

PC -> VGA cable -> UMSA -> SCART cable -> CVS-287

To me, it's a lot simpler to make the adapter.

rCadeGaming: I have a doubt about the scheme you put in this post. Some people say the diodes are not necessary, some people say they are and others say they are optional but the image will look better with then. Could you explain?

I made that schematic before I had a full understanding about combining sync.  I did test it with a CVS-287, and it worked, but it seems like some other people here are having trouble reproducing the same results.  Now that I have an oscilloscope to see what's actually going on, I can see that that method doesn't produce very good results.  When dealing with negative sync pulses (typical VGA output) it is best to combine them with an XOR gate and then invert the output.  Even better, this circuit, based on a single 74LS86 quad XOR chip, works regardless of the polarity of either horizontal or vertical sync:



In any case, if you don't want to take it that far, just connecting the two lines together will probably work ok as a quick and dirty method only for use with the CVS-287.  The schematic I posted has been updated to remove the diodes.

So which 19/20 inch Sony TVs should I be looking for on Craigslist? Most people on this thread seem to be using 24-27" monitors.

Any model with component inputs should work, as long as it doesn't support higher than 480i.  All of the ones I've seen were 15kHz only (what you want).  Post the model number of any specific set you're looking at to confirm.

[tiobolinha]

I already built the cable with the two diodes. I'll test it like this and if it doesn't work I'll remove the diodes.

I didn't understand what you said about the combining circuit. Is there a ready IC to make the composite sync? If so, what's the model?

Thank you.

[tiobolinha]

In any case, if you don't want to take it that far, just connecting the two lines together will probably work ok as a quick and dirty method only for use with the CVS-287.  The schematic I posted has been updated to remove the diodes.

rCadeGaming You're right. I had to get rid of the diodes to make the cable work.

I got image! (hey!)

But the image has a lot of noise (like bad contact noise), some shadows going up and down and some distorcion on the uper part of the screen.

Does this look like poor welding on the cable?

That SCART connector is a b***c to weld on. Is there any easier way to sold on it? In the original cable it seems like the wires were simply clipped so I wonder if the pins come out. If they do it would be SO MUCH EASIER to make the cable. Does anyone knows if the pins come out?

EDIT: I figure out how to pull the pins from the SCART cable. That will make the task MUCH MUCH easier. I encourage everyone to do the same. It's easy: The SCART pins are clipped and then inserted into the main connector. When the pins are fully inserted they click because they have a small spring. To remove the pins press the spring with a very small driver (clock type) until it bends back and touch the pin. Push the pin and it will deepen into the connector. After your release the pin push the spring back to the original position so it will click again when you reinsert it into the connector.

Thank you.

[Amra]

 I concur on building a sync combiner circuit for this arrangement.  I build one similar to the version you referenced, though I modified mine slightly so that I could integrate a 15 Pin D-Sub VGA input directly into the CVS287. I also integrated a 7805 regulator to the circuit and tapped directly off the 12v supply coming into the CVS287 to power it. 

The sync combiner made a HUGE difference in quality. I tried the diodes at first and they did not work for me at all.  I then tried twisting both the wires together, and it worked but the top 1/4 of the screen was wonky and skewed to the right. With the sync combiner I get a beautiful crisp picture with almost zero artifacts (some slight color and geometry issues, but those can be adjusted using the trimmers on the CVS287 and the TV service menu). This is using a Radeon 9600PRO AGP with CRTEmudriver 6.3 on a Sony KV27FS100. 

One thing that surprised me is that I can display 480i with this device. I had it in 240P while I was testing things, and needed to switch to a different monitor to work on setting up windows, mala, groovymame, etc, as windows is a pain to navigate and use when in 240p, but when I selected 640x480@60hz, it changed and displayed fine (though with the familiar 30hz flicker, meaning its in 640i, not 640p). I had assumed I would only be able to display very low resolutions with this arrangement.  Do you think I would have any issues running at 480i for a prolonged period of time on this setup? Is that a bad idea? Just curious if I can work on setting everything up (windows, groovymame, etc) while using this device, or if I should do all the setup on a separate monitor and only connect the TV after getting everything functioning properly.

One thing I  think I will do is add a heatsink to the 7805 in the CVS287, it seems to get quite hot. I had originally tapped directly off the 5v regulator in the CVS287 for the sync circuit given the power draw should be negligible, but given how hot it was already running I figured its wasn't a good idea to increase the current draw any more.

Just wanted to say thanks for all the information you've provided in this thread, its been quite useful. 

I made my arcade machine a long time ago, and used composite input on a TV with a scan-do 1024 in 640i, and it worked fine, but that 30hz flickering can drove you nuts if you stare at it long enough. 
This is a much needed change, the difference in quality is night and day, and the best part is that I get to keep my sanity. 

[tiobolinha]

I made that schematic before I had a full understanding about combining sync.  I did test it with a CVS-287, and it worked, but it seems like some other people here are having trouble reproducing the same results.  Now that I have an oscilloscope to see what's actually going on, I can see that that method doesn't produce very good results.  When dealing with negative sync pulses (typical VGA output) it is best to combine them with an XOR gate and then invert the output.  Even better, this circuit, based on a single 74LS86 quad XOR chip, works regardless of the polarity of either horizontal or vertical sync:



In any case, if you don't want to take it that far, just connecting the two lines together will probably work ok as a quick and dirty method only for use with the CVS-287.  The schematic I posted has been updated to remove the diodes.

rCadeGaming I got image by removing the diodes but my cable seems to poorly welded. I'll make a new one (thankfully I got TWO SCART cables from UK). I figured out how to remove the pins from the SCART connector so now I'll be able to make a much better job.

Amra said the quality of the image will improve greatly if we build the sync combiner circuit so I'll try to build one.

I'm a Dummy with electronic circuits so I'll ask help. Be aware that my questions might be stupid. I already apologize for my ignorance.   

1) I have to feed power to the circuit. I understand that I can pull 5v from the computer (that white 4 pin power conector we use for Hard Drives). Every ground mark on your schematic has to be connected to the ground black wire of the same power source. Correct?

2) I made a component list from your schematic just to make sure I'll get everything I need. Could you please take a look?

    - 4 x 74LS86 XOR ports
    - 2 x 22 uF capacitors
    - 2 x 2k2 resistors
    - 1 x female computer power plug (to connect 5v from the PC's power source)

3) I understand that the resistors can be connected either way and the capacitors have to be connected + to the circuit and - to ground. Is that correct?

4) I'll have to ground the the Hsync, Vsync, Composite Sync wires and both capacitors. All to the black pole of the power source. Correct?


I'll really appreciate your help.

Thank you.

[tiobolinha]

Guys,

What about this schematic that was pulled out from a RGB to SCART-TV cable?

They claim that using a 75 ohm shielded cable and the 1k resistors for the sync will greatly improve the image quality. Has anyone tried that?

Thank you!

[tiobolinha]

Guys,

Does this look like a good schematic for a TOP quality RGB-SCART converter to use with the CVS287?

Your comments will be highly appreciated.
Thank you.

[Amra]

I've not tried the double resistor solution, so I'm not sure how it compares to the other options presented thus far. You could always give it a go and let us know how it goes! 

That schematic you've got looks fine, they've switched a couple of the gates around compared to the version rCade linked, but that really shouldn't matter. Personally, I did it with the output on pin 11, primarily so that I could just bridge pins 14 and 13 for the +5, eliminating an additional jumper wire. It was simpler that way, but mainly because I made mine on a protoboard.

I think you could simplify things a bit further though if you are using the CVS287, because all of the grounds are electrically identical inside the device anyways. You can bridge pins 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 from the 15 pin DSub and connect it to any single one of the ground pins for the SCART connector going into the CVS287 (pin 21, 18, 17, 13, 9, or 5).  For mine, I just connected all the grounds together and connected them to pin 21.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

[rCadeGaming]

1) I have to feed power to the circuit. I understand that I can pull 5v from the computer (that white 4 pin power conector we use for Hard Drives). Every ground mark on your schematic has to be connected to the ground black wire of the same power source. Correct?

Yes, but see answer to question 4.

2) I made a component list from your schematic just to make sure I'll get everything I need. Could you please take a look?

    - 4 x 74LS86 XOR ports
    - 2 x 22 uF capacitors
    - 2 x 2k2 resistors
    - 1 x female computer power plug (to connect 5v from the PC's power source)

I'm guessing from your schematic that you realized the 4 XOR ports are contained on a single IC.  The rest looks good.  You'll also want to add a 0.1uF capacitor (again see answer to question 4).

3) I understand that the resistors can be connected either way and the capacitors have to be connected + to the circuit and - to ground. Is that correct?

Yes, although some don't have a polarity, in which case you don't need to worry about that.  This is the case with some film capacitors, which I'd recommend at least for the 0.1uF cap.

4) I'll have to ground the the Hsync, Vsync, Composite Sync wires and both capacitors. All to the black pole of the power source. Correct?

This is the problem with your schematic.  You can't ground the H and V inputs or the C output because then they'll be pulled low and the circuit won't do anything.  Notice in the schematic I posted that the ground symbols aren't connected to the signal path itself, but a rather a circle that goes around it.  This indicates that the cable shielding (in the case that there is any) should be grounded.

You could also use a decoupling capacitor very close to the 5V input on the IC.  This will help to isolate it from noise.  A corrected schematic is attached.

What about this schematic that was pulled out from a RGB to SCART-TV cable?

They claim that using a 75 ohm shielded cable and the 1k resistors for the sync will greatly improve the image quality. Has anyone tried that?

Between a straight connection, two diodes, or two resistors, the two resistors might give the best results.  I haven't tried it personally.  The best bet is a proper combining circuit.  The problem with bowing at the top of the screen is caused by horizontal sync being held low for about three lines by the vertical pulse when they're not combined properly.  This momentary loss of horizontal sync can allow the display's horizontal rate to drift, which is seen as the first few lines having a horizontal shift until it locks back in.  Whether or not the display will lock back up to the correct horizontal rate before anything is noticeable on screen depends on the amount of overscan, the duration of the vertical back porch, and the nature of the display's sync circuitry.

[Amra]

I modified your circuit to be a bit simpler, I went ahead and added the extra protection/filtering cap that rCade put on his.  Its a good idea to add one, especially if you have a noisy Power Supply such as a wal-wart, as it should send most of the noise to ground, I didn't add one on mine, but mine is run from a linear regulator and uses the filtering cap on the CVS287 itself.

[rCadeGaming]

Very nice. 

[Amra]

Very nice. 

Ty Sir, every little bit helps!

[tiobolinha]

Between a straight connection, two diodes, or two resistors, the two resistors might give the best results.  I haven't tried it personally.  The best bet is a proper combining circuit.  The problem with bowing at the top of the screen is caused by horizontal sync being held low for about three lines by the vertical pulse when they're not combined properly.  This momentary loss of horizontal sync can allow the display's horizontal rate to drift, which is seen as the first few lines having a horizontal shift until it locks back in.  Whether or not the display will lock back up to the correct horizontal rate before anything is noticeable on screen depends on the amount of overscan, the duration of the vertical back porch, and the nature of the display's sync circuitry.

I've not tried the double resistor solution, so I'm not sure how it compares to the other options presented thus far. You could always give it a go and let us know how it g oes! 

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

I bulit a second cable with shielded 75 ohns cables for each YUV signal and the quality of the image is PERFECT. I noticed that the SCART connector I got don't accept the welding alloy (mine is made of tin). It simply don't stick in the pins material. I took the pins out and clipped the cables.

After I hooked the cable and the CVS287 I got native resolutions right away and it looks awsome. It even feels different.

Mortal Kombat looks amazing!!!

The sync signals are just straightly connected. I'll test the same cable with the two 1k resistors and later with the sync circuit Amra showed in his last post. I'll comment the results.

Right now I have crispy image in some games (MK for instance). Others have that distortion to the left on the upper quarter of the screen rCadeGaming talked about (Robocop, Double Dragon). Other games doesn't work and just give me a blue screen (Popeye for instance).

I didn't start to mess up with the software yet. I'm just running standard MAME (not GroovyMAME) with 15 khz generated by CRT_Emudriver. I'm pretty sure the games are already showing native resolutions. I can see the scanlines and the dots very clearly!!

Thank you guys. I'll report my accomplishments soon!

[rCadeGaming]

Nice.  Yeah, that distortion definitely due to the straight connection on the sync lines.  Can you try the two resistor method first and let us know if that fixes it?

You should still switch to GroovyMAME, there are a million little reasons.

[tiobolinha]

Nice.  Yeah, that distortion definitely due to the straight connection on the sync lines.  Can you try the two resistor method first and let us know if that fixes it?

You should still switch to GroovyMAME, there are a million little reasons.

I'll start the software part as soon as I'm done with the hardware. I'm pretty sure there's a LOT of things I can do to pimp up my new home arcade. Getting GroovyMame will be the first thing.

I tried the two 1k resistors. No image.   

I already got all the components to build the sync circuit. I'll need a few days as my soldering skills aren't the best.

I have one question: Why there are some games that aren't showing any image (ex: popeye, TMNT, Space Invaders, Karate Champ, ...). Is that software related or maybe it has something to do with the sync method?

I'll keep your guys updated.

[Amra]

I have one question: Why there are some games that aren't showing any image (ex: popeye, TMNT, Space Invaders, Karate Champ, ...). Is that software related or maybe it has something to do with the sync method?

I suppose its possible something to do with sync, but that seems unlikely if other games with similar modelines are working properly, that said, I do know that popeye runs at an uncommonly high resolution for its age ( 512 x 448 ), which may cause problems, as 512x448@60hz would require a 24khz monitor, un-displayable on a 15khz monitor. Atari got around this by dropping the refresh rate to 30hz, meaning the original popeye game was interlaced and therefore could be displayed on a 15khz monitor. This could be causing problems if its trying to display on modline that can't be displayed on a 15khz system (i.e. 512 x 448 @ 60hz).

[tiobolinha]

Nice.  Yeah, that distortion definitely due to the straight connection on the sync lines.  Can you try the two resistor method first and let us know if that fixes it?

You should still switch to GroovyMAME, there are a million little reasons.

As I told you before the two 1k resistors gave me no image at all.

I just got the sync circuit done. Distortion in the upper third of the screen is gone but I feel that I have a little bit of noise in the middle of the screen. Maybe it's because I'm geting 5v from my (cheap) computer power supply and I didn't include the 0.1 uF capacitor in the circuit (I had already bought the components when you updated the circuit).

Maybe including it would solve the noise? What else can I do? What about those 6 variable resistors (orange / yellow swicthes) inside the CVS287? Do they do anything?

Thank you!

Thank you

[Amra]

I just got the sync circuit done. Distortion in the upper third of the screen is gone but I feel that I have a little bit of noise in the middle of the screen. Maybe it's because I'm geting 5v from my (cheap) computer power supply and I didn't include the 0.1 uF capacitor in the circuit (I had already bought the components when you updated the circuit).

Maybe including it would solve the noise? What else can I do? What about those 6 variable resistors (orange / yellow swicthes) inside the CVS287? Do they do anything?

That extra cap might help, as it takes stray ac (such as noise/ripple) and allows it to go to ground instead of the circuit.

The trimmers inside the CVS287 can be adjusted, but I believe most of them adjust color in some way, there are a couple videos on youtube that tutorial how to get proper color reproduction using the trimmer pots inside.  rCade certainly has more experience with the device than most, so perhaps he can provide more information in that regard.

[rCadeGaming]

Not sure about that noise, but the filter cap is definitely worth a try.  The 6 pots in the CVS-287 adjust high and low cutoff levels for red, green, and blue.  Use the test patterns I've posted in this thread.

[tiobolinha]

Guys,

You have been helping me so much and finally I'll have the chance to give something in return!

I made contact with this guy from Mercado Livre (Brazilian ebay) who is making those plug and play RGB - Component conversors specifically for 15 Khz emulation!

http://mlb-s1-p.mlstatic.com/conversor-vga-pc-p-video-componente-tv-crt-22991-MLB20239375310_022015-F.jpg

I bought one a few days ago for R$ 150,00 + R$ 22,00 shipment (arround $60 USD). It worked like a charm!! No more cables, no SCARTs in the middle. Just plug and play as long as your GPU is hacked to send 15 khz signal trough the VGA port.

I don't know if Johnny, the guy who makes those conversors, speaks english. anyway if anyone is interested in testing one of those bad boys I'll be glad to help.

This is great news. Finally we have an option for the CVS289!!

What do you think rCadeGaming?

Regards!

[rCadeGaming]

Looks awesome.  Are those pots for color adjustment?

Where do you buy them?

[tiobolinha]

Looks awesome.  Are those pots for color adjustment?

Where do you buy them?

A guy named Johnny Sierascky makes those. He told me it's his own schematic.

He's selling those at the brazilian ebay, called "Mercado Livre". There's where I bought mine. There goes the link (it's in portuguese but you can check out the pictures):

http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-645831813-conversor-vga-pc-p-video-componente-tv-crt-_JM

The pots are for RGB adjustment.

Johnny told me he just build a "bridge" from RGB to Component without any further processing in the image which is PERFECT for us. Right?

Mine worked perfectly just out-of-the-box. Perfect image: Good colours, no lines, no noises, no distortions what so ever.

There goes some pictures Johnny linked to the ad. Those are not from my system but mine looks just as good.

https://plus.google.com/photos/+JohnnySierascky/albums/5981443038402329889

Regards.

[Amra]

That looks like a very elegant solution, if you own one and can take and don't mind taking a look, are there any markings on that single inline dip package directly behind the power input connector? Im curious what method he's using to convert the signal.  It looks like a minimal amount of signal processing, and that's a good thing! Thanks for posting!

[tiobolinha]

Hi Amra,

That looks like a very elegant solution, if you own one and can take and don't mind taking a look, are there any markings on that single inline dip package directly behind the power input connector? Im curious what method he's using to convert the signal.  It looks like a minimal amount of signal processing, and that's a good thing! Thanks for posting!

It's surely a direct bridge between RGB and Component. Pretty much what rCadeGaming is planing to do I wonder.

I had the same curiosity and did take a look. Unfortunately all the ICs are blanked (IDs scrathed) and the actual circuit is convered with a stick. Anyway I'll send some pictures. Maybe you can spot something.

Regards.

[Amra]

It's surely a direct bridge between RGB and Component. Pretty much what rCadeGaming is planing to do I wonder.

I had the same curiosity and did take a look. Unfortunately all the ICs are blanked (IDs scrathed) and the actual circuit is convered with a stick. Anyway I'll send some pictures. Maybe you can spot something.

I appreciate you taking a look! Scratching off the part numbers is a pretty common practice, its suppose to help prevent people from copying/reverse engineering the circuit, but unless its a custom IC it really just adds a couple extra steps in the process.

[tiobolinha]

Amra,

There you go!

[Amra]

Thank you very much for the images! Truly appreciate it! =)

It is a pretty interesting looking project, and a pretty nicely made board. I might have to bite the bullet and purchase one for the second system that I plan on making at some point (one vertical, one horizontal, lol).  I'm hoping to help work on a direct input RGBHV hacks for TV's, but if those don't succeed, this seems like a good alternative.  I'm having good luck with the CVS287, but its nice to keep ones options open.  Besides, an all in one solution that achieves the same thing without the need for hacking would be nice.

Thanks again!

[tiobolinha]

My pleasure. You guys have been helping me so much. It's nice to be able to give something back.

I'll send you a PVT with Johnny's email.

Regards.

[tiobolinha]

It is a pretty interesting looking project, and a pretty nicely made board. I might have to bite the bullet and purchase one for the second system that I plan on making at some point (one vertical, one horizontal, lol).  I'm hoping to help work on a direct input RGBHV hacks for TV's, but if those don't succeed, this seems like a good alternative.  I'm having good luck with the CVS287, but its nice to keep ones options open.  Besides, an all in one solution that achieves the same thing without the need for hacking would be nice.

Thanks again!

Hi Amra, I sent you the message. I also talked to Johnny and let him know some people from the forum might contact him. He seemed excited about it. If you find any problems in getting this device shipped let me know. I'll help you get it.

I'm very interested in your hacking project. Please share it in the forum and let us know your progress.

[dmckean]

Any model with component inputs should work, as long as it doesn't support higher than 480i.  All of the ones I've seen were 15kHz only (what you want).  Post the model number of any specific set you're looking at to confirm.

After weeks of searching for any TV that size with component inputs I've found a Phillips 20PT643R01. Is there anything wrong with this particular set or Phillips sets in general?

[rca420]

Hi all,

Apologize for thread jacking, but I was wondering if anyone is selling a vga to scart cable for the cvs287. I tried building it twice by following the diagram and it just didn't work out. I've spent more money buying the parts than I'd like to spend and I'm at the point where I just want to enjoy some good gaming. I would be more than happy to buy the cable off someone. Again, sorry for disrupting the flow of your conversations. But desperate time calls for desperate measures. 

Please PM me if you have help. I am located in the CONUS. Thanks!!

[Paradroid]

After weeks of searching for any TV that size with component inputs I've found a Phillips 20PT643R01. Is there anything wrong with this particular set or Phillips sets in general?

Philips are a good, solid brand. You can't go too wrong there.

[Paradroid]

I modified your circuit to be a bit simpler

Thanks for this Amra. I finally got around to trying this out last night using a piece of Veroboard to build the circuit. The old circuit I had been using successfully for VGA to SCART cables wouldn't work properly with my direct to Jungle IC hacks but this one does! Woohoo! This means I can eliminate the UMSA and Extrons from my chain and make standalone RGB input hacks for my TVs instead.

[dheck]

Guys can you help me out?  Using the CVS287 I followed the schematic posted below.  I am using an ATI4350 video card with CRT EMUdriver connected to a 27" SONY CRT.  The second monitor shows up fine in Windows 7.  Below is the image I am getting.  It's hard to make out but that is the Windows 7 background extended onto the SONY CRT.  Where should I even start diagnosing.  I checked my wiring and everything seems to be correct.  Any advice on where to start?



     

[lilshawn]

you may have to tie ground to pin 17/18 of the scart socket as well.

[dheck]

I think I just figured out what I missed.  I did not ground pins 5,6,7,8,9 and 10 on the dsub.  I will try that and see how it goes.   

[theAEoN]

On the journey to building my first cabinet and I'm getting my hardware sorted out.

So far, I'm working with the following hardware:

Intel i3 2100
4GB ram
Powercolor Radeon HD 6750
Windows 7 64bit
CVS287 Transcoder
24" Sony Trinitron KV-24FS100

To build my VGA -> SCART cable, I used the following directions coupled with some forum reading guides:

http://scarthunter.blogspot.ca/2012/04/how-to-make-vga-to-scart-cable.html

Resulting in this:



Dotted lines go to the respective shielding colors which were twisted and shrink-tubed into separate cables.

I'm going the easy composite sync route using the two 1k resistors instead of the sync circuit for now as I don't have any veroboard, diodes, or transistors on hand.

After the second cable was done (first was a disaster and done without helping hands) I loaded up CRT Emudriver 2.0 (and enabling both syncs as positive and enabling composite sync) using Calamity's HD5450 guide and ATOM-15 which resulted in a steady 640x480 windows desktop... with a ton of overscan to resolve now.

Some issues that I have so far:

1. That the top of the image looks to be pincushion in the top right corner and there appears to be a slight yaw variation at the top of the screen too. I've tried to correct it in service menu and it looks better, but still a little out of wack. I'm wondering if my ground on the above diagram I used would have caused it? Maybe RFI since I snipped the ferrite core off the SCART end of the VGA cable when I was wiring it (I've seen cables built with and without ferrite cores though)?

2. On boot, the EFI bios image scales correctly but some of the other console text before the Windows loading screen seems to be off-screen. Is this normal? It seems to snap into place (albeit, with text a little fuzzy) on the Windows 7 load screen.

3. A faint diagonal banding that rolls in the background that I assume is caused from the composite sync lazyness of using resistors instead of the circuit.

My journey starts now to correct the overscan and going through each of the modelines to get them to centre and work in GroovyMame. Most screenshots I've seen have the Windows desktop at 320x240 so should I be correcting in service menu from that resolution or the default 640x480?

[theAEoN]

Ran Avia through component dvd last night and did a calibration on color, sharpness, and brightness (PO set it way too high causing some deformation). Went into service menu and reset geometry values back to default (as per manual) and started calibrating from there, this is the best I could do:




The left side of the picture appears to sag down and there's no adjustment in service menu I can make to "rotate" or make yaw adjustments to the picture. Looks like the TV is getting opened up and I'll be adjusting from the yoke.

So it's looking like the cable is fine. Installed Groovymame and ran a test with Radiant Silvergun, SF2, and Bubble Bobble which looked fantastic (but still suffer from overscan issues).

Where would I start to adjust to fix that left side sagging on the image though?

[Battleship]

I realize this post is old but on this RGB/VGA convertor thats on that out of Country Ebay site, how do you order it?  Is there an equivalent now available in the states? Im in the process of using a 27" TV for my cab and this seems like a nice piece of hardware. Thanks.