Strange issue with GroovyMame v.146

[mamenewb100]

I've heard a few other people mention similar problems. I have an issue where certain games (especially older ones) will not maintain 100% emulation sync speed without triple buffering enabled. Allot of games will run at 99%, 101% and many (like Mortal Kombat) at 110% speed. Some games run consistantly at these faster/slower rates while some jump all over the place and reach as high as 200% emulation speed. This is with NO frameskip enabled.

I'm thinking it might be Win 7 64-bit issue with GroovyMame since others having this type of issue mentioned the sane version of windows. I've gone through all the recommended settings and none of them seem to have effect. The only option that fixes it is having triple-buffering enabled. Of course that means goodbye to smooth scrolling.

GroovyMame works flawlessly other than this problem i'm having. Any ideas?  

P.S. I'm using a Makvision 29" Arcade monitor 31 khz model with ArcadeVGA.

[Calamity]

Hi mamenewb100,

What video card and monitor type are you using?

[mamenewb100]

I'm using a Makvision 29" Arcade monitor 31 khz model with ArcadeVGA 3000

[Calamity]

Well, it's completely normal that your emulation speed is not 100% for many games, as we can't tweak the AVGA3000 video modes under Windows. If we want smooth scrolling, everything must be forced to run at 60 Hz, because that's the refresh that most AVGA3000 modes are defined. This will cause acceleration or slowdown depending on the original game's speed.

The triplebuffering in GroovyMAME just ignores the video card refresh and just relies on CPU clock, that's why it runs at perfect 100%, but scrolling is ruined.

As an alternate solution you can try the GroovyArcade Linux live-CD, this one can reprogram ArcadeVGA3000's modes so the result is perfect.

[mamenewb100]

Yeah, I'm just fine with the games that run at tad fast or slow. It's the ones that run at a consistant 110% speed that is odd. I understand that AVGAs modes are not very tweakable.

I'd love to use the Linux Live CD... except my Frontend is Hyperspin. I tried enabling force 60 Hz in AVRES utility for AVGA but it didn't seem to do anything. I'm just wondering what would cause games to run at 110%. Must be somekind of syncing issue with refresh rate and resolution I guess.

[Calamity]

Give me a sample of a game running at 110%, or better get me a log of one of them:

groovymame.exe romname.txt -v -md 4 >romname.txt

[mamenewb100]

Here you go. 

[Calamity]

Try enabling -video d3d for this game.

[mamenewb100]

That was a good idea but nope. I still runs at 110%. Interesting in the log though is that it said it enabled -waitvsync when I have that option disabled in MAME.ini. Maybe groovy is overriding that option to pick what it thinks is better?

[Calamity]

Yes, -waitvsync is managed internally in GM, you only have to edit -syncrefresh.

Well, this is interesting because the 400x256 AVGA's resolution is usually 54 Hz, but here the system is reporting 60 Hz, which could be a fake value but when you vsync to that it actually seems to be 60 Hz, that's strange.

So yes, 60/54.8 = 1.09 (109-110%)

Did you ever use ArcadePerfect to modify this resolution?

You can use Arcade_OSD to set that resolution to full screen and measure it's actual refresh rate.

[mamenewb100]

Well ArcadePerfect is not working at this moment.. that's another issue. The program claims it cannot find my card when it is listed in windows. It didn't do that when I first installed it and I didn't change anything that would cause it to not work.

I can try Arcade_OSD as I haven't used it before.
My monitor is set at 60 Hz so it would make sense that games not running near 60 Hz are having sync issues. If I disable -syncrefresh in Mame.ini then there is tearing. So I'm assuming that is supposed to be on.

[Calamity]

Wait a minute, are you sure the resolution is actually switching?

Try launching it like this:

groovymame mk3 -nomodeline -resolution 400x256

[mamenewb100]

Wow. I used that command and now the command line reports after exit:

Target refresh = 54.8
Average speed = 397.89%

The speed varied from 300 to 400 percent. I don't actually hear the monitor changing resolutions like I do for some other games but it seems to look decent. Also isn't that 31 Khz monitors can't get much below 640x480 and need to scale the images up from 320x240 for example?

[mamenewb100]

Also I'd like to add that it always says "SwitchRes: Failed opening DefaultVideo registry" in command line. I'm assuming that means it can't find a perfect match and doesn't fit the profile of standard AVGA resolutions. I can hear the monitor changing on some games, others are silent.

You've been a great help so far and don't mean to keep you here all day. I'm just stumped.

[Calamity]

Oh damned! I didn't notice it was a 31 kHz monitor, that explains everything.

Well, I don't know exactly what the AVGA3000 does with 31 kHz monitors. Your monitor_specs in mame.ini should reflect that too, now you've got it set as cga. Anyway, that bad refresh with this particular game won't get corrected by just doing this. You're best chances are getting ArcadePerfect to work.

[Calamity]

Also I'd like to add that it always says "SwitchRes: Failed opening DefaultVideo registry" in command line. I'm assuming that means it can't find a perfect match and doesn't fit the profile of standard AVGA resolutions. I can hear the monitor changing on some games, others are silent.

Well that's normal, GroovyMAME attempts to read Windows XP style registry and it fails, this should be fixed at some point.

[mamenewb100]

Hmm I wonder if changing the setting from CGA to VGA in mame.ini would make a difference. I doubt it.

I read from some people that Groovymame could convert a res like 320x240 and double scan it to 640x480 keeping it pixel perfect minus the scanlines. Maybe I misunderstood  

Or the video card does that automatically.

[Calamity]

Hmm I wonder if changing the setting from CGA to VGA in mame.ini would make a difference. I doubt it.

I read from some people that Groovymame could convert a res like 320x240 and double scan it to 640x480 keeping it pixel perfect minus the scanlines. Maybe I misunderstood  

Or the video card does that automatically.

Yes, GroovyMAME can scale the resolutions automatically but you need to define your monitor accurately so GM knows what to do.

However this can only be done properly by defining a custom mode table with VMMaker, that already contains the scaled resolutions.

Obviously you can't do this with the AVGA, so the results will be unpredictable.

For your specific case, I can't see the advantage in using a AVGA, as you're not using a 15 kHz monitor. I'd rather go with a normal ATI card.

[mamenewb100]

I was really confused when I originally got my monitor and AVGA. Didn't understand the difference between 15 and 31 Khz. All I heard was people talking about how you would really benefit from AVGA and an arcade monitor.

I was cool with having 31 Khz with higher res games without the thick scanlines but then didn't know the AVGA was basically made for 15 Khz lol. What I don't get is the games look pretty good as if they are pixel perfect although some seem a tad blurry. Maybe If is saw a 15 Khz display or a pixel doubled 31 Khz, I would notice an even sharper image.

Anyway I very much appreciate you pointing me in the right direction and investing your time helping with this.

[mamenewb100]

OK so I'm considering getting another video card at some point. This is all I have to add:

Why would it be impossible to create a windows modeline that you could point AVGA to? Is the firmware completely locked, so there is no way to add different resolutions or modelines? No possible way to use WinModelines, VMMaker, or Powerstrip?

If I can't do it with this card. Which one do you know will work well with Win 7 and Groovy?

[Calamity]

Hi mamenewb100,

If I can't do it with this card. Which one do you know will work well with Win 7 and Groovy?

The custom drivers (CRT_Emudriver) are for Windows XP only, both 32/64-bit versions are supported. Windows 7 OS has several issues that are an obstacle when it comes to accurate CRT support.

Why would it be impossible to create a windows modeline that you could point AVGA to? Is the firmware completely locked, so there is no way to add different resolutions or modelines? No possible way to use WinModelines, VMMaker, or Powerstrip?

First, we can't use our hacked drivers with AVGA 3000 because it has a custom BIOS the drivers would reject. AVGA 3000 needs its own drivers.

Second, the AVGA 3000 drivers might support the registry modelines method (what Soft-15Khz/Winmodelines/GroovyMAME use), or might not. I don't have one to test here. It's a matter of testing. In the best case you'd be limited to 60 resolutions (that's the limit of regular Catalyst). I highly doubt that it will work, because the drivers are probably modded. Of course there's nothing that physically prevents this from working. It's just that it would require reverse engineering and this is something that is NOT going to happen.

Andy suggested the possibility of providing a DLL to interface for this card, but this was some time ago and we've had no news about it yet.

[mamenewb100]

Well that hurts. I do have a 32 bit version of xp, but it would suck to lose that extra 64 bit processing power. The more I hear the less realistic this sounds. Having to have certain OS, certain software, certain monitor, etc. just to get close to what 15k is like on 31. Microsoft tightens the screws on their software every release so you can't customize anything.

If I were to attempt the only scenario would be to ditch Windowsand go with Lunux, change frontends, and video card. Even then it sounds like no guarantees lol.

Well I'll just live with what I got for now. Let me know if you find a time machine, so I can go back before I bought this monitor. 

[Calamity]

You don't really need to ditch Windows. You can install GroovyArcade Linux in a pendrive and boot from there, in practice you'll have a dual boot system without messing with your hard drive installation. So you can get a feeling of how good or bad it works for you. Actually the AVGA 3000 works great in GroovyArcade Linux.

Just stay tuned until the new GroovyArcade release is out as it should make it easier to install to a pendrive, hopefully I can write a tutorial for it.

Fortunately, the user cotmm68030 already figured out the settings for your monitor, so it will be a matter of plug and play:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116023.0

[mamenewb100]

You can run two OSes at the same time? So I'll still be able to use Windows Hyperspin to launch Linux version of GroovyArcade off the pendrive? If so that would be awesome.

I've never run Linux before and had some problems attempting to install it from Windows in the past for some reason but I never really bothered enough to find out what to do. I'll have to give it a try, as it would rule to be able to test that without having to change OS or video cards. Great idea. May be awhile before I get around to installing and getting a drive.

[Calamity]

You can run two OSes at the same time? So I'll still be able to use Windows Hyperspin to launch Linux version of GroovyArcade off the pendrive? If so that would be awesome.

No, sorry for the confusion, what I mean is that you can keep your Windows installation unmodified, and install GroovyArcade on a pendrive. Then when you decide to boot the Linux system you just need to turn the machine on with the pendrive plugged. Both systems are independent, they'll just share the roms in your current install. So no Hyperspin in Linux.

I think 4 GB pendrive is the bare minimum, better get a 8 GB one just in case. There are some issues yet with the installation process, hopefully they'll get fixed soon.

[mamenewb100]

Ah ok. It will let me see if doublescan and running GroovyArcade in Linux is worth making the overhaul to a different OS and Frontend. But I would at least be able to keep the ArcadeVGA. Worth a shot, Thanks.

[mamenewb100]

Well Calamity I burned your GroovyArcade LiveCD ISO to a CD because I have an extra hard drive. I was able to see the pretty boot screen when I restarted my PC with the CD. I selected VGA mode, which is the only one that would work with my monitor. The rest are 15 Khz modes. Problem is when it came up with a selection of video resolutions to choose from, anyone that I picked resulted in a "Over Specification" error. I imagine it is treating my monitor like PC CRT or LCD which uses odd frequencies that are higher than the monitor supports.

  I didn't get a chance to try it this morning but I'm sure if I hook up my other LCD monitor that I'll be able to install it that way.

In case your wondering I downloaded the newest version I could find  GroovyArcade-Arch2012.06.09-x86_64

[mamenewb100]

Ok I was able to see what was going on during installation after I hooked up my LCD monitor but now gives a bunch of errors right before installation. Yet continues to show the GroovyArcade installation screen and load GA.. then out of nowhere just stops loading and doesn't proceed any further. I also got an error saying that processor #1 was not responding. This kind of stuff happens everytime I try to install an operating system other than windows. Bad luck?

The only option it gives on the CD is changing the boot command. What are the things I could try and are any of these errors normal?  (included pic)
 

UPDATE: The cd works on my other computer, so apparently there is something wrong with the Bios or something. I'm going to try to tackle this myself. What a mess. 

[Calamity]

Hi mamenewb100, there seems to be an error with the cd-rom reader or the cd itself. No idea about the other errors however.

Provided everything worked without errors, I would install it with a LCD monitor and then edit mame.ini, etc. with your specific monitor specs, those are not defined in the default options. Then you should be able to boot with your arcade monitor. This is the theory, I've just tested it with normal 15 KHz monitors, so I don't know if there would be any remaining issue like a frontend resolution of 15 Khz or something like that. All that should be fixable but you'd need some manual tweaking and knowledge.

When new version is ready I'll be installing it and testing the process so I could be of more help to you.

[mamenewb100]

I've established now that there is something strange with the Motherboard keeping GA from running on my cab PC. I put in the AVGA into my other AMD PC and it works fine.

Only problem now is I'm a total Linux newb and can't figure out how to use the internet or install drivers for the video card. I've read about mounting drives but there is no clear cut explanations on exactly how to do this since there are 100 different Linux distros out there. But I'm determined to figure it out. 

[Calamity]

Hi mamenewb100,

Why would you want to install drivers for the video card? Everything you need is already in the CD.

[mamenewb100]

Hi mamenewb100,

Why would you want to install drivers for the video card? Everything you need is already in the CD.

Didn't know that it included AVGA drivers. That is cool.

Still haven't found out how to get my arcade monitor to display without going out-of-range. I think it's still trying to run at max res of the vid card even though I picked 640x480 in GA setup. The vid card is feeding a 48 Khz signal and I'll google later to find how to change resolution in Linux. Hopefully that fixes it.

I was able to boot directly to the frontend so I could at least test to see how it looks. I noticed that the graphics looked a little more pixelated probably due to doubling the pixels. However the colors are more vibrant and characters look slightly bigger/better. It seems that the inconsistent game speed is fixed. However some games like Pacman and Donkey Kong are running very slow like they are in PAL mode or something. Overall I like it if I can only get my other PC working with it and fix the display issue.

[Calamity]

Still haven't found out how to get my arcade monitor to display without going out-of-range. I think it's still trying to run at max res of the vid card even though I picked 640x480 in GA setup. The vid card is feeding a 48 Khz signal and I'll google later to find how to change resolution in Linux. Hopefully that fixes it.

So where exactly are you getting an out of range resolution? Is it during boot, during GA setup, both? You'll probably need to define a proper modeline in xorg.conf that fits your monitor. This will need to be done manually, I'm afraid. Hopefully the Linux guys can give you a more helpful answer.

I was able to boot directly to the frontend so I could at least test to see how it looks. I noticed that the graphics looked a little more pixelated probably due to doubling the pixels. However the colors are more vibrant and characters look slightly bigger/better. It seems that the inconsistent game speed is fixed. However some games like Pacman and Donkey Kong are running very slow like they are in PAL mode or something. Overall I like it if I can only get my other PC working with it and fix the display issue.

So the frontend runs at a proper resolution?

Pixelated graphics may indicate the scaling is working. I'm concerned about the vertical games, those should run fine at their right speed. Please get me a log of one of them, I'll figure out what's the issue:

groovymame romname -v -md 4 >romname.txt

[krick]

However some games like Pacman and Donkey Kong are running very slow like they are in PAL mode or something.

Pacman runs slightly slow on my setup and you can hear it in the audio, but that's a side effect of the SoundSync code.

[mamenewb100]

Funny that I spent all that time on xorg.conf only to find out xorg is the program that runs the emulators. Xorg is not the problem, it is the Arch Linux shell at boot that won't allow change to it's resolution. It always defaults to 1440x900 resolution. Once frontend starts then res changes. I don't understand why xorg can't run the whole time. That way there wouldn't be a problem.

[Calamity]

Well, at least now we know where to look at. you probably need to edit the grub command, that's the menu you see on boot. there's a param in that line that controls the resolution, hopefully it works:

 http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/install-boot-login/406464-set-post-grub-pre-gui-resolution.html

[ves]

Hello  mamenewb100 , can you post logs "/var/log/*" and grub.cfg "/boot/grub/" ?

How do you know that the resolution is always 1440x900 on xorg?

[mamenewb100]

Hello  mamenewb100 , can you post logs "/var/log/*" and grub.cfg "/boot/grub/" ?

How do you know that the resolution is always 1440x900 on xorg?

Hi VES. I've tried just about every basic suggestion I could find on the internet and nothing has worked. Some kind of auto-res change is always applied during boot. I've tried adding the lines "nomodeset" and "vga=***" but it has no effect.

I notice that it starts booting in low-res because the text is big on the LCD screen. Then right around the time it gets to processing UDEV events and setting up user settings it changes to a much higher res. Udev the culprit maybe? If I use my arcade monitor it simply displays "over specification" when it gets halfway through the boot process.

Let me be clear that Xorg is NOT the issue. That works fine and changes res without a problem. It is the GA Setup environment that is in hi-res and can't seem to be changed. Once I get past GASetup screen and Xorg loads the emulator, then all is well but I can't make any changes with my arcade monitor without GAsetup. Is there anyway to use command line while in Xorg environment? Xorg closes whenever I press ESC to get back to GA Setup screen.

I included some logs but they don't seem to mention anything about res changes or any major problems. Tried to include some pics but couldn't because of file size limitation.

[mamenewb100]

Ok I just discovered something. If I boot hooked up to my arcade monitor and then switch VGA cable over to my LCD it shows GASetup in 1024x768. Windows 7 also detects my monitor as being capable of 1024x768 when it is not.

Once again I think this an issue with the program trying to auto-detect my monitor and over-riding any manual settings I try to make.

[Calamity]

Well, it seems that the card is somehow reading an EDID block from the DVI-0 port so probably your monitor is providing one:

[    14.185] (II) RADEON(0): EDID vendor "PTS", prod id 1904

The odd thing is that this EDID contains many high resolution modelines that your monitor doesn't support. So the OS is getting fooled by this information. This is strange, but unfortunately many monitors and TVs contain wrong EDID blocks.

Just out of curiosity, have you tried booting with the arcade monitor attached to the VGA output? Why are you using the DVI one?