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spinner sensitivity

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nick3092:


--- Quote from: tony.silveira on June 03, 2012, 11:06:04 am ---here's a thought, let's start a list of spinner games with the optimal settings for a TT2.  I'll start us off:

tempest - 6 (ok, i cheated...)

--- End quote ---

This comes up about once every 6 months.  You can calculate this with a simple math formula found with many of the spinner counts on the wiki:

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Spinner_Turn_Count

The TT2 has a 1200 turn count.  Form there, you can do the math for any game listed.

RandyT:


--- Quote from: molton on June 03, 2012, 07:48:16 am ---...if he listened to your demands he'd have to give free ---shoe--- to every idiot on the internet.

--- End quote ---

Well stated. :)  We wouldn't be around long if we participated in shenanigans, so I steer clear whenever possible.

After scrounging up the hardware schematic for the original controller, it seems the chain gearing of the controller is only for the damping effect.  It appears, contrary to my earlier assumption, to be a direct drive device, so given the information in the wiki, the proper sensitivity setting should be 12%.  12% of 1200 = 144.

Of course, this still doesn't change the fact that there needs to be an index signal generated by the control to maintain synchronization in the event that the player exceeds the ROMs ability to process the decoding.  If the player can do it in Tempest, there's a very high likelihood it can happen in 720 as well.  The indexing wheel is there, and used by the code during play, for a reason.  That being stated, if one doesn't intentionally try to knock it out of sync with a spin that is faster than whatever that threshold might be, then it should, in theory, remain in sync, once calibrated.  Much depends upon the way the control is handled by MAME here as well.  If the output from the spinner is averaged, or interpolated in any way, all bets are off.

Gamuhar:  Yes, I can put something together, knob-wise, for you to approximate the control as you have it shown.  With the AccuTwist option, reasonable damping could also be achieved.  One could even drill and tap (or install a bushing in) the 5" steering wheel and install a joystick shaft.  However, the radius of the wheel or knob to the point of the extension will have a direct impact on the playability of the game.  Too short, and it will be hard to control.  Too long, and it will feel less responsive than the original.  As the knob needs to be 1:1 for positioning purposes, this is not something which sensitivity twiddling will be able to overcome.  If you are serious about this, and willing to compensate me for the time, parts and effort involved in the endeavor, I can do what you want.  It could be simple and inexpensive, or something which will be closer to the original, and likely more complex and costly.  Just email me with the specifics.


--- Quote from: tony.silveira on June 03, 2012, 11:06:04 am ---you mentioned spinners dated 3/09 wouldn't show this behavious.  anything that can be done to "fix" pre 09 spinners?  soem kind of bios flash for the board is it physical?

--- End quote ---

If the board you have is the current surface mount version, we can replace the old chip with one containing the post 03/09 code for a nominal fee.  Email me for details.  Otherwise, upping the poll rate in the OS achieves the same end result.

RandyT

gamuhar:


--- Quote from: RandyT on June 03, 2012, 01:15:16 pm ---
We wouldn't be around long if we participated in shenanigans, so I steer clear whenever possible.

--- End quote ---

All grown up I see... you'll lose your marbles like that, can you even catch your own shadow anymore? Shenanigans!? You must be running out of magic dust, it's a challenge and adventure! It's what fairies fart and what dreams are made of.



--- Quote ---Of course, this still doesn't change the fact that there needs to be an index signal generated by the control to maintain synchronization in the event that the player exceeds the ROMs ability to process the decoding.  If the player can do it in Tempest, there's a very high likelihood it can happen in 720 as well.

--- End quote ---

How well can Tempest do it, how do you measure? Is position in Tempest also "absolute" similar to 720 Degrees?



--- Quote ---The indexing wheel is there, and used by the code during play, for a reason.  That being stated, if one doesn't intentionally try to knock it out of sync with a spin that is faster than whatever that threshold might be, then it should, in theory, remain in sync, once calibrated.  Much depends upon the way the control is handled by MAME here as well.  If the output from the spinner is averaged, or interpolated in any way, all bets are off.

--- End quote ---

It's not averaged, it seems to work well enough in either "spinner", or "real" 'driver mode' where you can map calibration input to a button and so calibrate during the game if necessary.



--- Quote ---Gamuhar:  Yes, I can put something together, knob-wise, for you to approximate the control as you have it shown.  With the AccuTwist option, reasonable damping could also be achieved.  One could even drill and tap (or install a bushing in) the 5" steering wheel and install a joystick shaft.  However, the radius of the wheel or knob to the point of the extension will have a direct impact on the playability of the game.  Too short, and it will be hard to control.  Too long, and it will feel less responsive than the original.  As the knob needs to be 1:1 for positioning purposes, this is not something which sensitivity twiddling will be able to overcome.  If you are serious about this, and willing to compensate me for the time, parts and effort involved in the endeavor, I can do what you want.  It could be simple and inexpensive, or something which will be closer to the original, and likely more complex and costly.  Just email me with the specifics.

--- End quote ---

Now we're talking! I'm for the simplest (cheapest) solution that produces "playable" results and doesn't fall apart after 15 minutes, for the prototype and proof of concept kind of thing. I am not willing to compensate you for it, unless you manage to convince me better. I think I am already sacrificing a spinner and you get to have all the fun with experimenting. I'd just let you do it because you probably can find more suitable parts and would know better what and how to combine.

720 Degrees is very good game, and like Star Wars not many people get to play it today due to necessity to have authentic controller to play it properly. It's a shame, and so there is market potentially for this mod. I was hoping you will see interest in it for your own knowledge and possibility to make and sell more of these modifications. So, while I'm not willing to compensate you for testing and prototyping, I'd like to share profits if it turns out this thing works well and you get other people asking you to make them one these too. We could work together, I'll pay for half of everything then, and do half or as much as I can, and share profits accordingly, and I'll give 70% of my profits to UNICEF that we can write off as your donation so you get some tax returns or whatever benefits that can give you. I'd kind of work for your company and also provide half of the investment, sounds like an adventure?

Xiaou2:

Gamuhur, you really have no clue... and so you are just becoming a troll.

 If you dont want something that will break in 15 min, that actually plays the game without losing any calibration.. and plays the game properly... its not going to be a quick and cheap hack.

 As for Starwars, you can play it with a mouse, or an analog joystick "ok".  The problem is that it does not feel as good as a true yoke.   Having the correct feel, means a lot of engineering, and a lot of expensive development, and a high price tag in parts & assembly.

 720's controller is the same as Starwars, but worse.  The game in unplayable without having an accurate dual encoder system in place.   But even if you could get it to work without that... you still cant just hack a handle onto a spinner.   It will never feel right. Never control well.  And will probably tear itself apart in a very short time period.

 Theres are countless reasons why a 720 controller is like 10 inches deep, and contains a boatload of parts.  Everything is made to specifications that allow the design the correct control, player comfort, player safety, and lasting durability.

 One time I made a spinner with a 1/4" shaft.  Didnt feel right at all.  The smaller shaft spinners were easier to spin, spun faster, and just felt better.  Theres a lot of science in mechanical design to consider.  Which is why most arcade controllers went through extensive testing and revisions, before hitting the arcade floor.


gamuhar:


--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on June 03, 2012, 04:25:25 pm ---Gamuhur, you really have no clue... and so you are just becoming a troll.

--- End quote ---

You mean like last time (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=117130.0) when you attacked me with your assumptions and when it turned out you were wrong you just went away without so much as saying "sorry" for your childish insult?



--- Quote --- If you dont want something that will break in 15 min, that actually plays the game without losing any calibration.. and plays the game properly... its not going to be a quick and cheap hack.

--- End quote ---

Hey, kiddo. Let Mom and Dad talk for a minute, will ya? I'm talking to Randy here, and I said I want "proof of concept". You make yourself whatever and however you like, stop bothering me.



--- Quote --- As for Starwars, you can play it with a mouse, or an analog joystick "ok".  The problem is that it does not feel as good as a true yoke.   Having the correct feel, means a lot of engineering, and a lot of expensive development, and a high price tag in parts & assembly.

 720's controller is the same as Starwars, but worse.  The game in unplayable without having an accurate dual encoder system in place.   But even if you could get it to work without that... you still cant just hack a handle onto a spinner.   It will never feel right. Never control well.  And will probably tear itself apart in a very short time period.

--- End quote ---

Go play Star Wars with a mouse then and get of my back, goblin.



--- Quote --- Theres are countless reasons why a 720 controller is like 10 inches deep, and contains a boatload of parts.  Everything is made to specifications that allow the design the correct control, player comfort, player safety, and lasting durability.

 One time I made a spinner with a 1/4" shaft.  Didnt feel right at all.  The smaller shaft spinners were easier to spin, spun faster, and just felt better.  Theres a lot of science in mechanical design to consider.  Which is why most arcade controllers went through extensive testing and revisions, before hitting the arcade floor.

--- End quote ---

You are boring me. Go watch some TV and do whatever you like, I prefer to try the things that have not yet been done.

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