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Happ Optical rotary joysticks
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---and as a bonus you will also be able to play spinner games
--- End quote ---
If you like playing your games with about half or less the typical control... then sure.
Nobody is going to enjoy playing Tempest with an Optical Rotary. Sorry.
There are reasons why multiple controls exist. Try to do everything with one controller, and you end up with
a controller that does poorly for ALL things it tries to do.
gamuhar:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on June 06, 2012, 12:14:16 pm ---
Distance = Delay
If you have to turn a dial 3x more distance to make the character change angle.. then you have effectively lost TIME.
If you lose time, thats called a DELAY. If you have a delay in a game, that can cased loss of life.
--- End quote ---
You do not have to turn a dial 3x more, stop hallucinating already. Since it has at least twice the precision of mechanical rotary you actually can cut that distance in half. Did you read mytymaus007 post? He does not want damn bump-stops,
to him: BumpStops= resistance = delay+discomfort
--- Quote --- A Rotary that Snaps, locks instantly into place, making the delay almost non-existent.
--- End quote ---
LOL. It only makes it easier to STOP, and in return it is that much harder to START turning and pass over lock-stops. That's exactly what mytymaus007 is complaining about, do you understand? Maybe you think they should add bum-lock to Arkanoid or Missile Command as well, perhaps that would make them FASTER?
--- Quote --- Furthermore, yes, you Could make the sensitivity higher for the opticals, making almost no delay. However, that would then
probably lead to the player accidentally going Past the intended direction.
Even if you got the exact match for rotational distances between the two types of controllers, Since the optical does not
snap lock into the exact positions... eventually you will lose or gain distances... which again, equates to lost time.
--- End quote ---
Of course you can match rotations 1:1 if you like. MAME developers actually took more care to make it working with optical rotary than mechanical, it was easier. The rest of what you said is wrong. Probably? Who do you think is interested in your assumptions? You keep talking about it and you never actually tried it, have you?
--- Quote --- Do some research on Joysticks, about 'Throw', 'Actuation', switch type, etc. You will find that many people are very critical
about losses in control. Shump players tend to use Japanese short throw sticks, because the travel to actuation is reduced, thus you get quicker response times.
--- End quote ---
Do you really have optical rotary and have you ever actually tried playing any spinner or mechanical rotary games with it?
gamuhar:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on June 06, 2012, 12:26:53 pm ---
If you like playing your games with about half or less the typical control... then sure.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I have plenty of resolution on my optical rotary, playing Tempest or Arkanoid is much better than with a mouse, almost as good as with a spinner, I really enjoy it and I don't feel the playability is compromised at all, it just feels a little bit different at the beginning. You still do not know the resolution of Happ optical rotary, it could easily have better resolution than Arkanoid.
You know Arkanoid actually has 24 notches encoder wheel?
--- Quote --- Nobody is going to enjoy playing Tempest with an Optical Rotary. Sorry.
--- End quote ---
Speak for yourself only, people already do enjoy it:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=118265.0
... and as you can see there are even more people interested to try it out. And if Andy thinks that's good enough to start production, then what weight you believe your assumptions have here? Your agenda is wrong. Give it up, goblin. Or try it out, it does not bite!
RandyT:
--- Quote from: gamuhar on June 06, 2012, 05:56:50 pm ---You still do not know the resolution of Happ optical rotary, it could easily have better resolution than Arkanoid. You know Arkanoid actually has 24 notches encoder wheel?
--- End quote ---
It's simple enough to find out...the part number is described as "PLASTIC STAR WHEEL F/TRACKBALL (24 SLOTS)". So yes, same encoder wheel as Arkanoid, but that's a small part of the equation. The Arkanoid control is geared, so the resolution of the control is a result of the encoder resolution multiplied by the gear ratio.
With just about any quadrature decoder, you would get 96 counts from that wheel (without gearing), so it would be enough for Tempest, and some others. But twisting a stick doesn't come close to the feel of a free-wheeling spinner control when playing the game. A game like Arkanoid, a driving game, or a game where a potentiometer based control was originally used, requires much more resolution to be played properly than this particular control can provide.
As for "click" vs "no-click", I'm with Xiaou2 on this. Yes, you can play it without detents in the positioning device, but the experience will be much better with them. The detents provide a positive stop for position, and will prevent erroneous movement. This provides the player with instant tactile feedback upon direction change, and removes the necessity to concentrate on not accidentally twisting the stick, whilst using it to move.
It's fine for one to take the position that a game can be played adequately, based on their own expectations, with a non-ideal controller. But it is patently absurd to take the position that the ideal controller offers no real benefit, and that there are no compromises inherent to the alternatives.
gamuhar:
--- Quote from: RandyT on June 06, 2012, 06:30:41 pm ---It's simple enough to find out...the part number is described as "PLASTIC STAR WHEEL F/TRACKBALL (24 SLOTS)". So yes, same encoder wheel as Arkanoid, but that's a small part of the equation. The Arkanoid control is geared, so the resolution of the control is a result of the encoder resolution multiplied by the gear ratio.
--- End quote ---
So there could be some "transmission" and 24 notches in Happ optical rotary does not really define its resolution.
I'm really delighted for your appearance, wizard. I'm always keen to negotiate some deal if you ever change your mind about that 720 Degrees spinner mod. Anyway, we all understand how mechanical transmission works with larger and smaller gears/rollers/balls changing rotation ratio, but how does software "transmission" work, what about "multiplier" thing? Would it be possible then to have 25x multiplier built in optical board and get higher resolution than Arkanoid even if with only 24 notches encoder wheel?
--- Quote ---With just about any quadrature decoder, you would get 96 counts from that wheel (without gearing), so it would be enough for Tempest, and some others.
--- End quote ---
Thank you, my favorite wizard!
How did you arrive at 96 counts, is that "at least"?
--- Quote ---As for "click" vs "no-click", I'm with Xiaou2 on this. Yes, you can play it without detents in the positioning device, but the experience will be much better with them. The detents provide a positive stop for position, and will prevent erroneous movement. This provides the player with instant tactile feedback upon direction change, and removes the necessity to concentrate on not accidentally twisting the stick, whilst using it to move.
--- End quote ---
I never disagreed about "tactile feedback", that's a part of personal preferences and out of the scope of what I wish to discuss. Only if you mean to suggest it can impact the score, only then it is worth discussion, but otherwise it's for everyone to figure out for themselves. Do you agree?
You need to consider that guy who started this thread is actually looking to get rid of that "feature". He knows all about it and that's the reason why he does not play those games. Maybe you should explain to him what he feels about it is wrong?
Have you actually tried playing any mechanical rotary games with optical rotary? I don't have any such problems as you describe. Do you think that's how it is to play Caliber .50 this joystick was made for and has 24 positions? Do you believe there would be twice as much "erroneous movement" than with Ikari Warriors, or half as much? If you can properly play Caliber .50 with it, then surely it would be even more suitable for those mechanical rotary games with half the precision, yes?
--- Quote ---It's fine for one to take the position that a game can be played adequately, based on their own expectations, with a non-ideal controller. But it is patently absurd to take the position that the ideal controller offers no real benefit, and that there are no compromises inherent to the alternatives.
--- End quote ---
Why did you say that? If you mean to imply I took that absurd position then please quote me as you seem to be misinterpreting something. I repeated several times and was very clear what my position is, please:
- "Again, my point is not that you should replace mechanical rotary or Arkanoid spinner with optical rotary stick, but those are BONUS things you can do with optical rotary if you already have it."
- "Sure there are compromises and trade offs, but that's about personal preferences and for everyone to figure out for themselves."