Why the LCD TV hate?

[Jack Burton]

This has basically descended into the new vs vintage argument you see all over the internet.

One of my friends is a musician.  He searches all over the state for vintage amps that use vacuum tubes.  He likes the sound they produce.

One of his friends has a brand new amp that has the ability to emulate(!) the sound of the old amps. 

My friend tries to explain to his friend that it's just not the same.  But his friend just says he can't tell much of a difference and doesn't want to go to all the trouble anyway.  My friend heaves a heavy sigh and moves on. 

As I believe I will from this thread. 

[boardjunkie]

Just FYI, there's more tube amps in production now than there was in the 60s. Why? Because they *sound good*.

All that Line6 (and the like) digital modelling claims to reproduce the character of several tube amps, but any player worth their salt knows they fall short. Serious players view that sort of thing as a toy that does 10,000 things but not one thing *well*.

[ItzMR2u]

CRT v LCD I say whatever makes you happy do it!  But, there's talk in here about when my CRT dies I'll do this or that. Well, I still have 2 27" CRT's, a JVC in my room and a Sharp in my cab and they're both from the 80's and still work fantastic!  Maybe it's because they were both made in Japan I don't know but I bet they'll still be working when the LCD's being put in cabs now die as I have yet to see these last very many years unlike the old reliable CRT!

I am going to be in the LED/LCD camp soon though as I'm planning on building a pinball machine and that's the only option for that from what I've seen!  I still worry about longevity of these though.

[wizkid32]

Just another thought.  There is one other convincing reason to go CRT, and that is viewing angle.  LCD/Flatscreen monitors often have small viewing angles, so you have to be sitting right in front of them.  You can't see the image if you look at any other angle.  This is much less of a problem with newer monitors, however, but you should still keep it in mind.

[Gray_Area]

Just FYI, there's more tube amps in production now than there was in the 60s. Why? Because they *sound good*.

All that Line6 (and the like) digital modelling claims to reproduce the character of several tube amps, but any player worth their salt knows they fall short. Serious players view that sort of thing as a toy that does 10,000 things but not one thing *well*.

Just another thought.  There is one other convincing reason to go CRT, and that is viewing angle.  LCD/Flatscreen monitors often have small viewing angles, so you have to be sitting right in front of them.  You can't see the image if you look at any other angle.  This is much less of a problem with newer monitors, however, but you should still keep it in mind.

Lots of talk on that already. SIPS and stuff I can't remember the names of.

[wizkid32]

Just another thought.  There is one other convincing reason to go CRT, and that is viewing angle.  LCD/Flatscreen monitors often have small viewing angles, so you have to be sitting right in front of them.  You can't see the image if you look at any other angle.  This is much less of a problem with newer monitors, however, but you should still keep it in mind.

Lots of talk on that already. SIPS and stuff I can't remember the names of.

Not trying to rehash, just summarize my views.

[Paul Olson]

I was looking around over at mameworld's forums, and it looks like we are going to have nice artwork for the widescreen LCDs soon. These are supposed to into the next release.

http://www.cooleywire.com/jimmyh/mame/artwork.html

[Spacedueler]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

That's what I get if I use bezel artwork with those games - is that possibly your case? If you're using artwork try running the game without it and see if there's any change.

[wizkid32]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

I have had no such problems on my 20"  LED monitor.  On the topic of aspect ratios, some monitors (like mine) offer a hardware solution.  Mine can be switched from 16:9 to 4:3 with the touch of a single illuminated key!  This is accomplished by the usual black bars, but is handy none the less!

[Gray_Area]

This whole black bar nonsense amuses me. 'We must be missin somethin thar cuz the whole screen ain't filled by this here original video game picture'.

[Howard_Casto]

This whole black bar nonsense amuses me. 'We must be missin somethin thar cuz the whole screen ain't filled by this here original video game picture'.

Heh yeah... people are dumb.  A 27 inch 16:9 display is NOT the same size as a 27 inch 4:3 display if you are running games at 4:3.  The equivelent screen size is much smaller.  Then again, stretching the image to fill the screen doesn't make the image larger, it makes it fatter.

IMHO 16:9 displays are not well suited for arcade cabinets unless it's a showcase cab or you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen. 

On the other hand 16:10 display's are pretty brilliant.  I got a 27 inch hanns g for xmas for 220 bucks (I know because I had to order my own xmas present ).  Because it is 16:10 there is almost no wasted space on the screen.  Now the equivelent screen size is slightly smaller... it is more like 25 inches instead of 27, BUT my cab is MK-based, and they only had 25 inch monitors in them anyway.  Now you have to use some screen filters on the thing, that's a given, but other than that I can't say enough good things!

I think for mame cabs in regards to using lcds, the 27 inch 16:10 is the sweet spot for a "traditional" cabinet but if you are using a showcase cab  the sky is the limit and you can even use 16:9 lcds as you have the room to install a much larger monitor.  Remember a lot of the showcase cabs used rear-projection tvs anyway. 

[wizkid32]

you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen.

You eventually get used to it, and it's not really all that distorted.

This will probably anger some purists but I agree...(Waits for fire to come down from the sky to burn him up.)

[one8seven]

you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen.

You eventually get used to it, and it's not really all that distorted.

What monitor is that? (brand/type)

[Le Chuck]

I'm pretty sure that's a Vizio given that Vizio is written in white letters.

[Le Chuck]

I like how you're getting your ass whooped for the sake of getting a pic 

[ed12]

you know at the end of the day
it's all fine and nice to say ppl are goffy for wanting change :tube-lcd:
but u might want to grow up and suck it up
find a yoke for a crt..? find a pix tube for same ?
unless u have a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- load of time on your hand's
and can search internet for countless hour's ?
u are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of luck,unless u have stock
but of course u would be deleting your stock and then u will need
to refill it...humm how much is your time worth
pennies i guess

where i perfer to go :goffy: road and new tech it
why?
i make money and do not lose it

think about it


ed

[jimmy2x2x]

you know at the end of the day
it's all fine and nice to say ppl are goffy for wanting change :tube-lcd:
but u might want to grow up and suck it up
find a yoke for a crt..? find a pix tube for same ?
unless u have a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- load of time on your hand's
and can search internet for countless hour's ?
u are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of luck,unless u have stock
but of course u would be deleting your stock and then u will need
to refill it...humm how much is your time worth
pennies i guess

where i perfer to go :goffy: road and new tech it
why?
i make money and do not lose it

think about it


ed

Ed, I am thinking about and I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Your time is not well spent finding a good CRT and you are happy to compromise by using LCD technology?

[ed12]

no jimmy
not at all
i perfer crt to lcd and i hate plasma
but aside i live in a real world
ie the boss dose not pay u if the game dose not go out and make money
simple comcept as it is,but it is

ed

[Gray_Area]

no jimmy
not at all
i perfer crt to lcd and i hate plasma
but aside i live in a real world
ie the boss dose not pay u if the game dose not go out and make money
simple comcept as it is,but it is

ed

I prefer the plasma I've seen to the LCD I've seen. My neighbor has a recent-model 56" Samsung that just blows my mind. 1080p is just fine for detail, colors and contrast are great, and deflection angle rocks.

[ed12]

has anyone even looked at happ control's ?
300.00+ for a crt
try finding a 19",good luck
try finding a yoke",good luck
try finding a flyback for a neotech.good luck >2701<
even itsgaming on there newest realses are putting out the complete
golden tee live with a 42" lcd,that my friend's is a mfg telling u crt has met it's time,sure u can by a asian crt,chassic >in-bulk<
but then we are back to $$$$ verus your time engery cost's
so get the point.....
i love crt's alway's have alway's will,same with tube amp's etc
but is but in the real world
as i stated i do not get paid because the machine has a broken monitor
nor do i get paid to warehouse new 1's
that my friend is just bad business
my best interest is to switch them out to lcd
this will make a few thing happen
a=machine is fixed
b=i get paid
c=coustmer is happy
so where is head ?
ed

[alfonzotan]

HLSL has been in MAME for 2 release cycles thus far, since .143. The latest MAME .144 has a stable and dependable implementation of the HLSL additions. Avoid the .143b release, its buggy. If you compile, you want .143u8 or higher.

Is the stable 0.143 version okay?  The ROM update for 0.144 is horrendous-huge by comparison, just as soon not go through another re-sort of my romset if I don't have to.

[Paul Olson]

That would be the .143b that was warned against. You would need to compile your own with the u updates to u8 or higher.

[Gray_Area]

I do wonder how much I'll actually use the 3D stuff, but I wouldn't even consider a TV without it these days. 
 

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

[Richard_Nixon]

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

How about 3d gaming?

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

[wizkid32]

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

How about 3d gaming?

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

That may be true...  Whilst I don't use the 3D much, I do like to have it, in case I want it some day.   

[MonMotha]

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

This isn't due to the 3D.  Most TVs that feature 3D support are somewhat higher models and have better panels.  The 3D support (for models using active shutter glasses) is just an emitter (IR or RF) to sync the glasses up and maybe a couple pairs of glasses thrown in the box.  Otherwise, it's just a plain ol' 120Hz TV capable of accepting 120Hz input (if flagged as 3D).

The models that use polarization tricks for their 3D may actually suffer when doing 2D, depending on how it's implemented.

[Richard_Nixon]

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

This isn't due to the 3D.  Most TVs that feature 3D support are somewhat higher models and have better panels.  The 3D support (for models using active shutter glasses) is just an emitter (IR or RF) to sync the glasses up and maybe a couple pairs of glasses thrown in the box.  Otherwise, it's just a plain ol' 120Hz TV capable of accepting 120Hz input (if flagged as 3D).

Thats what I meant. Not the fact that it is 3D alone, but because it is usually found in higher end models.

As for the Hz thing. Its the tv that converts it up to 120Hz(or above). Video sources (that I know of) only put out @ 60Hz.

[MonMotha]

Conventional TV sources are (at best) ~60Hz (59.94 in former NTSC land, 50.00 in former PAL land).  Movies are 24 fps.  A lot of TV is also interlaced, so you have to do something about that, and you'll end up with, at best, ~60fps as a result of that process.  If you turn on the "120Hz mode", yes, it just upconverts.  It's also handy if you feed the TV a native 24p signal for a movie, since 24 evenly divides 120 (but not 60), so you can avoid a 3:2 pulldown.

Computers, however, can easily do 120Hz refresh rates (and even higher - let me assure you that 160Hz just looks wrong, too, as it's TOO smooth).  Most TVs won't accept it if you just naively set your PC to 120Hz and hook the cable up, but if you instead tell the TV that you're sending it a "3D" signal that isn't actually 3D (it's just a chain of progressive frames at 120Hz) and don't bother putting on the glasses, you can get 120Hz refresh out of a lot of modern 3D-capable TVs.  Handy little trick.  You may have to adjust whether left or right comes before/after the other since some TVs do it in different orders from others.  Obviously this only works on TVs with shutter glasses, not passive polarized glasses.

[Gray_Area]

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

How about 3d gaming?

Nope. There are a select few polygon games frome the 90s I play, but I tend to display them at 15khz/software scanlines, for example, Golden Tee '97. (I don't play any 'sports' games.)

[supadave]

Boy did i drag up an old topic.. 

IMHO 16:9 displays are not well suited for arcade cabinets unless it's a showcase cab or you are one of those goofs who want to look at a stretched out, distorted screen.  

Just because you have a 16x9 doesn't mean your picture will be stretched out. you can set the Mame config to maintain correct aspect ratio for games and therefore it will just put black bars around the 4:3 games and the vertical games too. It's a much larger black bar around the vertical games obviously but at least it's all in correct proportion. I have a 42" and the bars do not bother me one bit. I don't really even notice them. I also use the scanline filters to help with the pixelation. No it's not perfect like a tube but it is much easier to deal with. Some things do look good stretched like the Hyperspin menu and some newer emulators. The advantage I've found is gaming outside of Mame. PC games, and newer emulators.  It's all still just a matter of preference. Tubes look good if you have a good one, and LCD's IMO work to if done right.  

[MTPPC]

you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen.

You eventually get used to it, and it's not really all that distorted.

This will probably anger some purists but I agree...(Waits for fire to come down from the sky to burn him up.)

That's just because you are used to looking in the mirror.

[MacGyver]

I fully understand why the industry is switching to LCDs, power consumption, lead-free, weight during shipping, definition, yada yada...  I just want to know why an LCD company hasn't picked up on the idea that there are whole industries out there that need a 4:3 form-factor?  There should be at least one manufacturer that makes large 29" 4:3 LCDs for drop-in replacements, in fact they should offer all established CRT sizes in bare LCDs.  There are companies out there that sell just about everything you can think of, except large 4:3 LCDs.  16:9 are swell for watching movies, but there are places where a 4:3 makes more sense, and would be a better fit from a design point of view, aircraft for one, wooden arcade cabinets for a second, anything with a complicated control panel that has monitors stuck in it. 
Why is there not one manufacture that is a one-stop shop for all kinds of crazy exotic sized LCDs (I don't mean cut ones)? I'm talking 1:1, 4:1, and yes, even 4:3.

Side note, does anyone have a complete list of games that do not work with hlsl, ie. the taito 3d ones.  I'm currently having to create separate .inis without scanlines by hand as I find them? I am using 0.145.

[ed12]

there is a crap load of drop in replacement's to have
with or with out mounting hardware
happ control's/neham displays to name a few
a little google here goe's along way
but i do get the :edit: .ini point
were i have to say
if the mame ppl did not want u to beable to :tweak-it: the would not have hard coded in the .ini,it would have been a .dll,try editing 1 of them critter's
so the ---smurfette--- about editing is just utter rubish to me
olny thing i find with lcd's,is there contrast and :edge: smothing we all like
with crt's

ed

[Gray_Area]

I fully understand why the industry is switching to LCDs, power consumption, lead-free, weight during shipping, definition, yada yada...  I just want to know why an LCD company hasn't picked up on the idea that there are whole industries out there that need a 4:3 form-factor?  There should be at least one manufacturer that makes large 29" 4:3 LCDs for drop-in replacements, in fact they should offer all established CRT sizes in bare LCDs.  There are companies out there that sell just about everything you can think of, except large 4:3 LCDs.  16:9 are swell for watching movies, but there are places where a 4:3 makes more sense, and would be a better fit from a design point of view, aircraft for one, wooden arcade cabinets for a second, anything with a complicated control panel that has monitors stuck in it.

Haven't you seen Farenheith 451?  The world is finally catching up.

Why is there not one manufacture that is a one-stop shop for all kinds of crazy exotic sized LCDs (I don't mean cut ones)? I'm talking 1:1, 4:1, and yes, even 4:3.

3D printers can't do electronics yet.