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Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts

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Jack Burton:

I feel like I need to make a little addendum to my strong worded post earlier in this thread and talk about one of my experiences with some rather "inferior" controls. 

This is a Nintendo VS. cocktail.  Also known as a red tent. 



It's playing my favorite VS game, and one of my favorite arcade games of all time: VS Super Mario Bros. 

Now, the joysticks on the VS. cabinet are sort of strange.  They are very squishy, spongy feeling.  Sort of like the joystick on a Donkey Kong cab.  The buttons are also quite mushy. 

Because of the the controls this game has an entirely different character from console game.  It's much harder to control Mario, and time his jumps correctly.  You have to sort of mentally compensate for the sloppyness of the controls, and how much the joystick will bounce around when you let go of it.  This greatly increases the difficulty of the game, and makes it much more arcade-y in my opinion. 

I played one of these cocktails only one time in my life.  I played it at Jason Wilson's Game Galaxy in Nashville, TN.  When I got home I immediately tried playing it on my PC.  But something was missing.  It seemed way too easy.  The long jumps that killed me over and over in the arcade were very easy with my sidewinder joypad at home. 

I figured I might do better by switching to a joystick, but my Sanwa sticks were too responsive and still made the game too easy.  Even the competition joystick in my MAS stick was the same.  The real magic of the game was in that Nintendo joystick.  To me, that was a fundamental part of the game itself.  By using "better" controls, I ruined the experience for myself. 

So, in my earlier post I used the term "true arcade culture" in reference to the guys who play fighting games on cabs in tournaments.  Well, they don't represent everybody.  The arcade culture of this site, with all the MAME cabs, restorations, crazy concepts, etc.  That's just as legit as the guy who has a single Astro Cab in his basement with a bunch of CPS2 and Cave pcbs. 

So why don't we use the superior Japanese joysticks?  Well, sometimes superior isn't right.

Xiaou2:


--- Quote ---Those are all advantages.
--- End quote ---

 The thing is... that they are Generic.  If your running a Generic Arcade... then its OK.  Cause everyone knows that most modern games today dont have any soul anymore... so why bother making cabinet art?  Or cabinets that have unique qualities?   Gone are the days when cabinets actually had great cabinet art, like Journey, or Discs of Tron Environmental.




--- Quote ---true the japanese arcade machine may not have what we think is a true arcade machine. but most the game people played in the arcade was a clone of a japanese game.
--- End quote ---

 While Japanese have created some great games... Lets not get too high and mighty.  Atari created some incredible original classics.  And look at Williams...  Defender, Robotron, and a bunch of other excellent classics.

 Finally, even though the LATER Japanese games were generic... there were many older cabinets that had great looks and innovative features.

 The problem is that your just a Fanboy of a certain time period.   Im Not.  Im a fan of good games... and that means, any time period.  Im not hung up on ego, which is exactly why your panties are all in a bunch.



--- Quote ---Those generic plastic cabinets are one of the reasons the arcade industry in Japan is thriving to this day.  Some of them are made of metal btw. 
--- End quote ---

 Sorry to tell you this.. but Japanese arcades are not doing very well compared to the past.  Most of them survive merely because of high population density.  Meaning..  there are soooo many people in one small area, that its nearly impossible to fail.  Another reason, is that most of the Japanese arcades are home of Pachinko & Slot machine style gambling machines.

 If you bring over some of the Japanese games to many American spots.. or lower population density areas... they will get ignored.   How do I know this???  Because I was a Manager of a USA mall location Namco arcade.  The locations of stores in higher density areas... got higher sales.  They were also the last to have to close up.



--- Quote ---I think a larger tri-sync monitor is a big advantage, but I can understand how you feel it's mounted too close to your face.
--- End quote ---

 The Midway 25" monitors were even a little large, and they were a lot further away than most Japanese machines.   Its like sitting 1ft away from your TV.  Its stupid...  But its necessary, in a tightly cramped Japanese arcade.

 If the Japanese had the room, even They wouldnt have made the generic cabinets w/ face hugging, eye burning, EMF zapping monitors.


--- Quote ---At least Japanese cabinets correct for this by adjust the angle of the player 2 controls a little.
--- End quote ---

 There are many ways to utilize space.  For example, you can leave your elbows out, which puts your hands at an angle... OR... you can but them directly in front of your body... which will save a lot of space... and not require change your hand angles.



--- Quote ---What a logical, detailed argument, let's remember what you said about convex buttons.
--- End quote ---

 Feel is very important to how something operates.  Almost all buttons which are critical, are concave.  It makes it easier to tell where your fingers are.  Keeps your fingers from slipping off / out.  Directs the fingers to the center of the button, which keeps the button mechanically more effective.

 As for the sticks, they are not anything innovative.  Pivot balls have been done before.  The sticks feel cheap, fragile, super clicky.  Some have throws which are way too tight.  A lot of them have Hideous color schemes.


Your fingers don't make any less of a curve when you curl them up than they do laying flat.  They only do if you curl some fingers up a lot more than others; this isn't comfortable or natural, it's forced by the button layout.  The layout should conform to your hand, not the other way around. 

 When you spread your fingers apart, and bend them, they line up quite well.  If you extend your middle finger too far... where it would so called "Naturally Be", it lies too flat, and becomes more difficult to effectively press the button.  You want to press the the button vertically, using a straight path, gravity, and good bio-mechanical leverage and spring action.

 You simply are Not understanding all the issues involved. 

 I thought I was being brilliant when making a curved layout.  Felt good on on a mock up drawing... but it didnt work well on a real control panel.



--- Quote ---Also, straight line keyboards are not known to be comfortable, natural, or healthy.  Ever hear of an ergonomic keyboard?  Ever hear of carpal tunnel syndrome?
--- End quote ---

 Carpal Tunnel can be caused by ANY highly repetitive action.  A lot of it has to do with being too tense too often.  Your muscles need to have relaxation / rest times.  They need to be stretched and flexed.

 The Ergo boards are still rare compared to the standard keyboards... and it has little to do with costs.  Probably the most effective keyboards at stress reduction, are also the most difficult to learn to use.  Like the vertical splits.

 Theres nothing difficult with using my flat keyboard. I dont have CT. And anyone whos seen my marathon post would probably figure that I SHOULD have CT.

 Ohh, and another thing... I dont think Ive EVER seen a keyboard with convex buttons.


--- Quote --- Besides, straight line keyboards are ergonomic nightmares meant to fit as many keys as possible into a useable space...
--- End quote ---

 They are a method to control.  Theres nothing else that will perform the job as effectively.
Even the so called ergo methods do not improve much upon the results.

 I remember as a kid, getting an Epyx single handed ergomonic joystick.  As nice as it was for its quality micros, and good stick, ...pressing the buttons rapidly on it was not good at all.  A simple non-ergo nintendo gamepad was far easier and better to use...





--- Quote ---You're getting these problem because you're using poor concave buttons that don't move smoothly or actuate responsively.  This is why there are convex buttons, you shouldn't have to hold your hand a certain way to get the buttons to work properly.  Again, the control panel should conform to your hand, not the other way around.
--- End quote ---

 Ive already debated this.  Again, its not mechanically advantageous to press a button at an angle.


--- Quote ---Daigo uses the curved layout.  Your fingers don't make a straight line whether they rested on the buttons or held in the air.
--- End quote ---

 In order to make your fingers go in a perfect downward pathway... then you have to adjust your fingers... and that adjustment, creates a straight line.  Try doing the sequential 4 finger tap... both with a straight line, and with a curved layout.

 And when you are talking fastest most accurate response.. you want a perfect downwards path.  Not a longer distance angled path, with a poorly leveraged finger.


 While anyone CAN learn to become great with limitations... they could actually play better, with better controller methods.


amendonz:

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

"Sorry to tell you this.. but Japanese arcades are not doing very well compared to the past.  Most of them survive merely because of high population density.  Meaning..  there are soooo many people in one small area, that its nearly impossible to fail" - my god, what a moron.

paigeoliver:

I get his idea and he is right, he just worded it poorly. America doesn't have the population density to support arcades anymore because there are very few places you can place one and have enough interested people within a reasonable distance. Japan's population density is literally ten times that of the United States. That means when you throw down a specialty shop or destination in Japan you will have ten times as many people close by.

So thus America has a problem keeping any arcades open anywhere because the 2 percent of the population interested in going just isn't enough with the low population density. Meanwhile in Japan that same 2 percent interest can literally translate to 10 times as many people because of the population density.

Japanese arcades are also on the decline. The big operators have closed several hundred locations in the past few years and all the manufacturers have sales that drop year after year. As of 2 years ago Japan had 4650 arcades (that is one arcade for every 27,408 people). To compare America had one arcade for every 9000 people in 1982. Japan's arcade industry has been in serious decline since the year 2000 and it shows no signs of any rebound.

http://stats-japan.com/t/kiji/12028
http://www.export-japan.com/jcu/sample/index.php?page=game-over-or-continue-what-will-become-of-the-japanese-video-arcade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_arcade_video_games


--- Quote from: amendonz on March 15, 2012, 09:16:16 pm ---Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

"Sorry to tell you this.. but Japanese arcades are not doing very well compared to the past.  Most of them survive merely because of high population density.  Meaning..  there are soooo many people in one small area, that its nearly impossible to fail" - my god, what a moron.

--- End quote ---


DCsegaDH:

Its sad about the arcade industry, the concept just doesn't appeal to most people anymore. The newer games are expensive now too. I think the arcades are having a hard time now because the hardware and games cost way more than they are making in profit.

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