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| rCadeGaming:
--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 11:15:45 pm ---I have to ask though if you truly prefer the japanese controls. Particularly the sticks. ... I was never an expert level player and perhaps the japanese sticks are better at doing special moves? --- End quote --- Absolutely. The stick is crucial. Try doing shoryukens in Super Street Fighter II Turbo (forward, down, down-forward + punch). This type of input is common to most 2-D fighting games, and Street Fighter II's strict requirements to perform it illustrate how much easier it is perform with some sticks than others. Since Turbo plays faster, you also have to input it correctly in a shorter period of time for it to work. Some newer games have workarounds to accept sloppy inputs, but absolute precision is still required for high-level play. Anyhow, try some shoryukens in Super Turbo. I found them to be difficult to pull off consistently with a Happ/IL stick. Doing a couple in a row was tough just against a dummy, let alone under pressure in a match. After switching to a Sanwa JLF, it is was immediately much easier. Some people are able to practice enough to eventually be consistent with American sticks, but that's a huge hump in the learning curve that you don't have deal with on a Japanese stick. It's a better starting point. Even if you're already used to an American stick, you might already start to improve further just in the adjustment process of switching over. Like the Happ/IL competition, the JLF has the advantage of unlevered microswitches; but it uses a round actuator, unlike the Competition's square one which rotates and engages kind of sloppily. Like most Japanese sticks, the JLF also pivots much smoother on its spherical pivot than most American sticks do on their cylindrical pivots. The restrictor gate is also very important. --- Quote from: BadMouth on March 14, 2012, 09:34:22 am ---I read somewhere that the Japanese "pro" players never hit the restrictor. They move the stick just far enough to trip the switches so they can transition faster. --- End quote --- I think this is true. I'm not that good, I think I bump it often, and I like the way the square restrictor lets you know where the diagonals are. This is really useful for blocking as well as executing attacks. For the pros, they might not ever touch it, but the square restrictor gives them the space to work in, and everyone can benefit from the way it gives all eight directions equal areas of engagement. From slagcoin: With both circular and octagonal restrictors, the spacing of the engages is usually based toward equal spacing along the restrictor (the throw areas). With square restrictors, the spacing of the engages is usually based toward equal neutral and engage zone sizes (a nine square grid of equal sizes). Note, however, that most joysticks are not precise to these goals. It can be difficult to balance the size of each direction's throw edge with the size of each direction's engage zone when eight directions are created using only four switches. With a circular or octagonal gate, you can easily divide the throws equally, but the engage zones for diagonals are going to suffer. --- Quote from: Jack Burton on March 14, 2012, 12:13:01 pm ---I've played SF for years at the highest levels. I started out with a MAS systems Super Pro Stick with a happ ultimate stick. That was crap. Then I switched to an x-cade super knockoff. That was a little better. Then I used an IL sourced competition stick in it. That was pretty good. Then, just as the japanese control craze started in the US I was an early adopter and tried out a Sanwa JLF plus Sanwa convex 30mm pushbuttons. I built my own case to house them in and used the exact layout off of the 1st player side of an astro cab. I've never looked back. It's by far the best hardware and layout for competitive fighting games, and that's why it has risen to be the standard for tournament play. Each year in Columbus, OH they host the Season's Beatings fighting game tournament. And each year there is a Super Street Fighter II tournament. The entry fee is $50. The very best players from all around the country come there to play. Do you know what controls they use? Japanese in a Japanese cabinet with a Japanese layout. These guys are killers. They all have literally thousands of hours logged into these games. They take every advantage they can to improve their gameplay. If there were anything inferior about these controls they would have hammered out the differences a long time. --- End quote --- Exactly. --- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 11:15:45 pm ---The sticks on my Super Neo 29 always felt sort of cheap. --- End quote --- Nice cab, you're lucky. I know they're a pain in the butt to service because they don't swing open like most candy cabs, but I'd certainly like to have one if I had the chance for a good deal. I think they came stock with Seimitsu LS-40's. Like most Japanese sticks, they have a pretty weak spring resistance. I like how light of a touch it takes to use them, but to some it does feel cheap. Like I said, it's easy to swap the spring out and make it feel as tough as an American stick. You might have also disliked the very short engage and throw distances of the LS-40, this a big advantage for shooters but some don't think it's suited for fighting games and other genres. I'm considering switching to an LS-40 for certain games, but right now I generally prefer a JLF. --- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 11:15:45 pm ---I used to have a Street Fighter 2 machine that had the normal Happ supers swapped out for the 8-way microswitch version of the classic wico stick and those just felt right with the game. --- End quote --- I've tried a lot of sticks but this is one I don't know about. I know Wico's 4-way leafswitched sticks were hugely popular in the 80's and played great in things like Donkey Kong, Mario Bros., Pac-Man, etc., but I've never tried a Wico that was 8-way or microswitched. I emailed the owner of Slagcoin.com (anyone know his name, I couldn't find it anywhere) and asked him if he'd be willing to add that to his comparisons. Too bad they're out of stock at LizardLick. |
| paigeoliver:
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on March 14, 2012, 10:34:59 pm --- I've tried a lot of sticks but this is one I don't know about. I know Wico's 4-way leafswitched sticks were hugely popular in the 80's and played great in things like Donkey Kong, Mario Bros., Pac-Man, etc., but I've never tried a Wico that was 8-way or microswitched. I emailed the owner of Slagcoin.com (anyone know his name, I couldn't find it anywhere) and asked him if he'd be willing to add that to his comparisons. Too bad they're out of stock at LizardLick. --- End quote --- Wico leaf sticks were actually most common in the lesser known titles and in the early conversion game era. Midway had their own leaf stick design for the Pac games, and Nintendo had their own joysticks as well (microswitch ones at that!!) The 8-way microswitch wicos with the rubber grommet are sort of rare birds, mostly being shipped in the late 80s/early 90s on Sega and Konami games. At least one of the common Happ/iL bat top sticks actually favors the diagonals, I think it is the Ultimate, but may be the competition (avoid them both as they are awful). |
| BadMouth:
first, a disclaimer....I'm a button masher and not qualified to be arguing minute details of fighting sticks. ;) (someday I'd like to study the games and get better at them) but...just to play devil's advocate >:D Regarding the diagram above, I'm not convinced that the total area that would register a direction is all that important. If a player uses the restrictor to guide them through the move, the circular or octagon restrictor makes more sense because the joystick is travelling the same distance through each zone. With the square gate, you have a longer distance to travel through the corner and the motion isn't as fluid. |
| northerngames:
In the OP I hate that layout and with american hands they dont fit. I would play like I was crippled in the hands. after hundreds if not thousands of hours on a street fighter layout it just feel's more natural over others. mk with the 5 button is the best feel for that game for me also over any other. I just dont like the offset buttons even neo-geo I dont care for but that pic would make me feel like I am typing on a mini micro keyboard with two large hands it just dont feel/work right. even on a bartop or mini cab it would still be weird. |
| rCadeGaming:
--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 14, 2012, 11:01:05 pm ---Wico leaf sticks were actually most common in the lesser known titles and in the early conversion game era. Midway had their own leaf stick design for the Pac games, and Nintendo had their own joysticks as well (microswitch ones at that!!) --- End quote --- Gotcha, maybe I'm thinking of people referring to them as "Wico-style" sticks? Did the Nintendo ones use rubber grommets? --- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 14, 2012, 11:01:05 pm ---At least one of the common Happ/iL bat top sticks actually favors the diagonals, I think it is the Ultimate, but may be the competition (avoid them both as they are awful). --- End quote --- Yeah, if you look at the diagram of the circular gate you can see how that will happen if the engage points are moved in too close, away from the gate. --- Quote from: BadMouth on March 14, 2012, 11:13:02 pm ---but...just to play devil's advocate >:D Regarding the diagram above, I'm not convinced that the total area that would register a direction is all that important. If a player uses the restrictor to guide them through the move, the circular or octagon restrictor makes more sense because the joystick is travelling the same distance through each zone. With the square gate, you have a longer distance to travel through the corner and the motion isn't as fluid. --- End quote --- Your argument that it's more important for the eight directions to be allotted an equal distance around the circumference than an equal area of movement is certainly interesting. However it assumes that you'll be riding the gate all the time, which you shouldn't be. You said that the pros never do. I touch the gate sometimes but I don't ride it. The square gate doesn't have to disrupt circular motions; throwing hadoukens isn't any more difficult for me with the square than the round. To me, the other problem with the round gate is that you have no tangible reference of where the directions are. I don't ride the square gate when performing attacks, but I do hold against it while blocking which gives me a natural understanding of where the directions are instead of having to think out how I'm holding my hand in relation to the control panel or the screen. For example, without a reference it gets hard to block high without accidentally blocking low or jumping. I have to be honest with you guys. I love arguing this stuff out like we're on the debate team, but it takes me all night to write this stuff out. It's cutting into my time working on my cabinet. :lol As far as square vs. circle, I guess if you're totally at one with your exact layout you would automatically know the exact engage points without needing that physical reference. It's just that for me the square seems to have the largest open space on the JLF, staying out of your way if you really intend on never touching the gate. I should try the circle gate again, now that they're being sold for the JLF. I've really only used in Happs/IL's/X-Arcades and Seimitsus. I tried the octagon, but it's the worst, it's too small and restrictive. I gives you constant reference while you're bumping into it all the time. --- Quote from: Yenome on March 13, 2012, 11:57:06 pm ---i think when i do build my cab i will leave the 7th button on the right side of the 6. that is of course if i dont make both my middle buttons block and have that other one where it belongs for a MKist layout. --- End quote --- --- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 14, 2012, 12:02:17 am ---I also think that 4th button in the bottom row would be a lot better over on the right as well. I wish my machine was done that way. --- End quote --- I think all of the layouts on Slagcoin are meant to use the leftmost buttons for 6-button play. This is the layout I use: It's the Sega Astro City Player 1 Layout I posted, minus the top right button and with the stick in the further left position. Yenome, I'm not big into Mortal Kombat so I just put run on the pinky button, and block on both the center buttons like you said. If you really wanted to you could use my layout plus a thumb button to make MK a little more correct. Is this what you guys were talking about or were you referring to the square layout? --- Quote from: amendonz on March 14, 2012, 12:08:48 am ---Also on the topic of where to put that 4th button, I honestly think the best thing to do is just use the jap 6 astro layout like this 234 1XX For neo, feels all good --- End quote --- --- Quote from: Dawgz Rule on March 14, 2012, 08:15:43 am ---This is the template that I went with. I have a seven button layout and opted to eliminate the upper left button. --- End quote --- To me the problem with these layouts is the angle it puts your hand at. If you put your hands down on a table in front of you, and look at your right hand, you'll notice that your pinky is lower than your pointer finger, or at most about even with it (whether your fingers are laying flat or curled up). Button layouts which position the pinky button a lot higher than the pointer finger button force you to rotate your hand counter clockwise. This means you have to either hold your arm at a 45 degree angle to the panel (sticking out in player 2's way) or twist your wrist pretty badly. Pick the curve that's right for you, I just think the overall layout should be rotated to position your arm and wrist comfortably. --- Quote from: amendonz on March 14, 2012, 12:03:30 am ---It's also interesting to note p1 and p2 button layouts are slightly different to make up for the different angle your arms would be at as p2. The japanese were pretty clued up. --- End quote --- I think this is evidence that these cabinets/layouts had more thought put into them in terms of playability. --- Quote from: amendonz on March 14, 2012, 12:03:30 am ---Also I prefer ls32 aswell, but my preference changes game to game, even games within the same series. Eg LS32 for ssf2t, jlf for sf2hf --- End quote --- I've said I prefer the JLF for fighting games, but I want to try the LS-40 for shooters. Can I ask why you prefer different sticks for two games that are so similar? Also, what is it you prefer about the LS-32? Any mods to it? --- Quote from: Dawgz Rule on March 14, 2012, 08:15:43 am ---People can be pretty passionate about button layouts and joysticks. The important thing is to do research and pick the best combination that works for you. Personally, I love the Mag-Stik plus but others hate it. Again, personal preference. --- End quote --- That's one of the reasons I made this thread. I don't want to tell everyone they should use the same design elements as I do. I just want to present the arguments, encourage people to do the research by trying all the options for themselves and thinking it out, and then decide their own preference. I'm not saying everyone does this, but I think sometimes people default to the square layouts and American parts because they decide that the other options aren't worth their time to look into before they've even given them a chance. When someone says they have given both sides an equal chance and they prefer one or the other, I can respect that, even if it's the opposite of what I would choose. When someone puts their fingers in their ears and says the only option they have really tried has to be the best, I cannot. |
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