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Controls controls controls...Noob learning

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paigeoliver:

I have owned two different Streetfighter 2 machines with the square layout. I have owned a Japanese candy cabinet with the curved layout. I have owned mame cabinets with both the square and the curved layouts.

I would have to say I prefer the square layout. Capcom must have also, since their kits all came with artwork containing the square layout. They invented the square layout, as no game used it before that. The square layout is not laziness. It was the official control layout, the dedicated machines came that way. Even the Japanese flyer for Street Fighter 2 showed the square button layout.

In fact the curved layout is actually a result of the Japanese cabinet builders wanting to support both the existing Neo Geo system and Street Fighter 2 on the same steel control panels. So they put in 3 more buttons below their official pre-existing Neo Geo button layout so they could support street fighter 2. Capcom started doing the 6 button curve thing on their japanese cabinets only after street fighter 2 was already last year's thing. Even then the curve they used was so mild it might as well not be there.

I didn't encounter the curved layout on an actual Capcom machine with artwork on it until Street Fighter IV came out. Even on those machines the curve is very mild.


--- Quote from: someone on March 13, 2012, 02:36:21 pm ---Street Fighter was made in Japan, and it was intended for a 3 over 3 curved layout, which was used for it there.  When it was imported to North America, usually only the boards were brought over.  People who were more concerned with money than how well the game played put these boards into totally different cabinets with lazily arranged controls.

--- End quote ---


rCadeGaming:


--- Quote from: Trip on March 13, 2012, 02:36:21 pm ---Can't look at the other links right now, they are unfortunately blocked, like so many arcade sites, at work for me.   :lol

--- End quote ---

Gotcha, yeah definitely check out those links when you get home.

Here's a thread I made about Japanese sticks, buttons, and button layouts:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=118842.0


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---I would have to say I prefer the square layout.

--- End quote ---

That's your preference, and you're entitled to it.  Obviously I disagree, but I'm encouraging Trip to try out all available options determine his own preference as well.  Wanted to raise awareness for the curved layout as it isn't talked about much here.


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---They invented the square layout, as no game used it before that.

--- End quote ---

You're probably right that they invented the 6 button layout.  I don't know of any game that used 6 buttons in that way before the original Street Fighter.  Also, you're very likely right that it was originally a square layout even in japan.  SF and SF2 predate the Sega Astro City cabinet.  

However, once the Astro City did come out in 1993, it's curved layout became the standard for 6 button layouts in Japan for many, many years.  Other cabinets there used the same layout or something derived from it.  Btw, the layout I linked to is an exact diagram of the player 1 controls on an Astro City cabinet, it's also the layout used on Hori Real Arcade Pro Sticks:



Moving to a curved button layout to greatly improve comfort and playability was just one of the many improvements to go along with the release of Super Street Fighter II, which came out then as well.


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---It was the official control layout, the dedicated machines came that way.

--- End quote ---

As far as I'm aware, Capcom of Japan never made a dedicated SF2 cabinet.  I thought they developed SF2 for their CPS-1 board (later CPS-2 with Super SF2) which went into other manufacturer's cabinets.  Not saying Capcom didn't make dedicated cabs in Japan, I'm just not aware of it.  Can you show me a link to one of these cabinets?  Again, not trying to be a smart-ass, I would like to see one.

In any case, whoever made the first cabinets would have been unfamiliar with a 6 button layout, so they just arranged it simply.  The Astro City quickly came along and improved that, and that became the standard.

EDIT:  Looks like Capcom did make it's own 6-button cabinet in Japan at some point, called the Capcom Impress.  Can't find much info on these (like release date), but they seem to be derived from the Astro City II.  Anyone have any info on this?


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---their kits all came with artwork containing the square layout.

--- End quote ---

Are you talking about artwork for a cabinet that was pre-93, or for a cabinet outside of Japan?


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---In fact the curved layout is actually a result of the Japanese cabinet builders wanting to support both the existing Neo Geo system and Street Fighter 2 on the same steel control panels. So they put in 3 more buttons below their official pre-existing Neo Geo button layout so they could support street fighter 2.

--- End quote ---

That may very well be the case, but it became the standard after they saw how well it worked.


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---Capcom started doing the 6 button curve thing on their japanese cabinets only after street fighter 2 was already last year's thing.
--- End quote ---

The curved layout has been standard for most of the SF franchise.  It was established by the time Super SF2 came out, then there was Super Turbo, Alpha, SFA2, SFA3, SFIII, 2nd Impact, Third Strike, the VS games, etc.


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---Even then the curve they used was so mild it might as well not be there.

--- End quote ---

That's quite a stretch.  If you look at the layout I linked to, that's clearly not the case.


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 03:15:53 pm ---I didn't encounter the curved layout on an actual Capcom machine with artwork on it until Street Fighter IV came out. Even on those machines the curve is very mild.

--- End quote ---

That would be a Taito Vewlix.  Sega's "City" series and similar cabinets were based around CRT monitors, so Third Strike was the last SF game to be designed for them.  Capcom went with the Vewlix for SF4 because it has a 720p flatscreen.  Here is the Vewlix layout, which is also the layout used on Mad Catz Fight Sticks:



It's not so great for 4 button games because there's no curving for the 4th button, but you will notice the 6 buttons used for SF are positioned almost exactly the same as the Astro City layout with the whole thing rotated just a bit.

I stand by my previous statement.  In Japan, the curved layout has been the standard since about 93.  These are all decisions made by executives based the economics anyways.  It's up to custom cabinet builders to make their own decisions based on playability.  I can tell you that most competitive players prefer a curved layout with Japanese parts.

paigeoliver:

The US market had dedicated machines for plenty of the Street Fighter games. A lot of them were dynamo brand cabinets but they still came from Capcom USA with the game already in them.  and all the assorted Street Fighter kits came with control panel artwork for that same square layout.

Capcoms own metal cabinets had far less of a curve than the Astro City cabinets did. Their original CP system cabinets had 3 buttons that would have been in a perfect line except that the first button was a few millimeters lower. Their later six button cabinets were pretty mild on the curve as well.

Here is a picture of a control panel from the dedicated Super Street Fighter 2 control panel (us version of course, since they didn't make dedicated machines in japan). Notice how it still has the square layout.



They were still shipping their game kits with square layout artwork in the Street Fighter 3 and SNK vs. era as well.

Now I am sure real fighting game nuts probably prefer the japanese layout since they are also the same guys who tended to import japanese cabinets and build their own fighting sticks with the Astro City layout. I am just saying that the square layout was the original layout, it isn't lazy, it isn't wrong, and I have still yet to find any evidence of Capcom actually coming out with any button layout specific artwork in any style other than the square layout prior to Street Fighter IV.


rCadeGaming:


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 11:01:10 pm ---The US market had dedicated machines for plenty of the Street Fighter games. A lot of them were dynamo brand cabinets but they still came from Capcom USA with the game already in them.  and all the assorted Street Fighter kits came with control panel artwork for that same square layout.

Here is a picture of a control panel from the dedicated Super Street Fighter 2 control panel (us version of course, since they didn't make dedicated machines in japan). Notice how it still has the square layout.

They were still shipping their game kits with square layout artwork in the Street Fighter 3 and SNK vs. era as well.

--- End quote ---

I know the US market has always had dedicated cabs and cabs with square layouts, at no point did I disagree with that.  


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 11:01:10 pm ---Capcoms own metal cabinets had far less of a curve than the Astro City cabinets did. Their original CP system cabinets had 3 buttons that would have been in a perfect line except that the first button was a few millimeters lower. Their later six button cabinets were pretty mild on the curve as well.

--- End quote ---

Again, you're talking US right?  Doesn't look like Capcom Japan made a 6-button cabinet until the Impress cabinet, which seems to postdate the Astro City and uses the same curved layout.


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on March 13, 2012, 11:01:10 pm ---I am just saying that the square layout was the original layout, it isn't lazy, it isn't wrong, and I have still yet to find any evidence of Capcom actually coming out with any button layout specific artwork in any style other than the square layout prior to Street Fighter IV.

--- End quote ---

I was just saying that in Japan the straight layout was updated to the curved layout very early on, and it was never changed elsewhere due to monetary reasons.

I apologize for saying the square layout is lazy and wrong, I spoke without thinking.  Clearly it's a preference.  Can I just ask you why you prefer the square layout?

Also, the Street Fighter IV layout isn't "Capcom's" layout either, it just happened to be the layout of Taito's Vewlix cabinet, which they decided to use.

paigeoliver:

I would have to say at this point we are in agreement.  ;D

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