What's up with the angling?

[loppydog]

the underside of the panel is routed to fit the square mount, and screwed from underneath...not the hardest fix.  I would just need to route the "square" pocket "straight" then maybe some re-wiring.  I just wish someone would have told me the right way to do it when I was building.

I found a pic:

[paigeoliver]

Looks like a really nice machine. When you go to do the fix think about upgrading to perfect 360s as long as you are already taking it apart (to get the joysticks up to the same level of quality you seem to have on the rest of the machine). 
 
Do you use left hand on the trackball? That is the only way I can wrap my head around the trackball buttons! 

[loppydog]

yeah, right hand on track ball, left hand on buttons.  It works REALLY well for a mouse, I know it doesnt look like it   I will check out the 360's, are they a good "all around" stick?

[paigeoliver]

Pretty much nicest stick I ever used. I am using mine with robotron handles, but they are nice with the stock handles as well.

The classic Wico leaf may feel just a little bit better, but those never have the great even sized zones of the P360.

yeah, right hand on track ball, left hand on buttons.  It works REALLY well for a mouse, I know it doesnt look like it   I will check out the 360's, are they a good "all around" stick?

[Davros]

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make "rotatable" controls where the joystick/buttons rest of movable circle within the panel itself so you can move it slightly in either direction.  It might be overkill, but it definitely would bring the positives of console sticks (being able to position the controls relative to you and/or space yourselves out) while being more intuitive to seasoned arcade players.

I know this angling issue comes up from time to time. I am trying to absorb as much as I can before I start any building. I appreciate all the advice that experienced members offer to people just starting out in the hobby.

Is my understanding correct that the U360s offer a software solution version of your proposed "rotatable" controls (obviously buttons stay where they are)? That is you could default all four joysticks facing north (up = orthogonal to screen) but in the software offer the option for P3 and P4 to angle inwards.

In the very specific case where you had built staggered joysticks on a 4p cp and those edge joysticks were at perfect 45 angle to P1 and P2 and you were interested in playing games with two joysticks per player, would it be easier to play with staggered hands but both pointing north or parallel hands but both pointing 45 degrees inwards? Thanks again for input.

[paigeoliver]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

A gamepad works at any angle not so much because you are moving relative you are moving relative to your body, but because your thumb is moving relative to its own natural position on your hand. Thus it is easily learned and pretty much works at any angle. On an arcade joystick the only natural reference point you have is the game screen. You have to trust your ability to follow that natural reference point more than the ability to use your body (which will almost never be at the exact same angle as the joystick) as a reference point. It has been tried time and time again and it doesn't work.

You aren't the special case in which angled sticks are going to work. Your project isn't the special case. There is no special situation to use angled sticks, not even if you personally have the ability to easily adapt to them. You aren't going to be the one playing on player 4, your friend Bob will and he is going to have trouble with it, or your little cousin Terry will and he won't be able to use it at all.

There is not a single merit to angled sticks. There is no real discussion to even be had about them. For 10 years the discussion of angled sticks has consisted of a small minority of the gamepad obsessed, trolls and some who already built angled sticks (and don't want to admit fault), trying to defend the idea while the other 90 percent try to help them. Again and again the people who are trying to help show pictures of dedicated 4-player panels and how they weren't angled. Over and over again some who built them angled chime in and admit it was a mistake. Yet over and over again people try to turn it into a discussion.

[yotsuya]

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters, I decided to try this out for myself. My natural inclination would be that yes, P3 and P4 should be angled to the screen in order for things to feel right. They have a few 4 player games there, and I checked - all the joysticks from the factory are installed straight up (no angling).

I put some credits in and I used the P3 controls (far left). I started off by playing straight-forward, directly in front of the machine. Obviously, I had no issues. I then, stepped to the side, playing as if I were the third player and someone were occupying the P1 area. Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

[Le Chuck]

...Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

That right there should come on a little slip of paper taped to every joystick sold.   

[HaRuMaN]

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters...

What?  And I wasn't invited?

[yotsuya]

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters...

What?  And I wasn't invited?

It was Family Fun Day for my daughter's school. Trust me, you'll be getting your fill of those soon enough! 

[vanrose72]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

[yotsuya]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

[Le Chuck]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

[Vigo]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

Well, it's not like you really are coming from a different direction on this issue.

[Le Chuck]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

Well, it's not like you really are coming from a different direction on this issue.

No reason to get up in arms about it...

[Vigo]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

Well, it's not like you really are coming from a different direction on this issue.

No reason to get up in arms about it...

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so obtuse.

[javeryh]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

A gamepad works at any angle not so much because you are moving relative you are moving relative to your body, but because your thumb is moving relative to its own natural position on your hand. Thus it is easily learned and pretty much works at any angle. On an arcade joystick the only natural reference point you have is the game screen. You have to trust your ability to follow that natural reference point more than the ability to use your body (which will almost never be at the exact same angle as the joystick) as a reference point. It has been tried time and time again and it doesn't work.

You aren't the special case in which angled sticks are going to work. Your project isn't the special case. There is no special situation to use angled sticks, not even if you personally have the ability to easily adapt to them. You aren't going to be the one playing on player 4, your friend Bob will and he is going to have trouble with it, or your little cousin Terry will and he won't be able to use it at all.

There is not a single merit to angled sticks. There is no real discussion to even be had about them. For 10 years the discussion of angled sticks has consisted of a small minority of the gamepad obsessed, trolls and some who already built angled sticks (and don't want to admit fault), trying to defend the idea while the other 90 percent try to help them. Again and again the people who are trying to help show pictures of dedicated 4-player panels and how they weren't angled. Over and over again some who built them angled chime in and admit it was a mistake. Yet over and over again people try to turn it into a discussion.

This is very high up on the list of things people should be forced to read before joining this site.   

[Green Giant]

You guys are all just a bunch of crazy old people stuck to your old way of doing things.


Me and my buddy Fry know a thing or two about reinventing old technology.

[DaveMMR]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

A gamepad works at any angle not so much because you are moving relative you are moving relative to your body, but because your thumb is moving relative to its own natural position on your hand. Thus it is easily learned and pretty much works at any angle. On an arcade joystick the only natural reference point you have is the game screen. You have to trust your ability to follow that natural reference point more than the ability to use your body (which will almost never be at the exact same angle as the joystick) as a reference point. It has been tried time and time again and it doesn't work.

You aren't the special case in which angled sticks are going to work. Your project isn't the special case. There is no special situation to use angled sticks, not even if you personally have the ability to easily adapt to them. You aren't going to be the one playing on player 4, your friend Bob will and he is going to have trouble with it, or your little cousin Terry will and he won't be able to use it at all.

There is not a single merit to angled sticks. There is no real discussion to even be had about them. For 10 years the discussion of angled sticks has consisted of a small minority of the gamepad obsessed, trolls and some who already built angled sticks (and don't want to admit fault), trying to defend the idea while the other 90 percent try to help them. Again and again the people who are trying to help show pictures of dedicated 4-player panels and how they weren't angled. Over and over again some who built them angled chime in and admit it was a mistake. Yet over and over again people try to turn it into a discussion.

This is very high up on the list of things people should be forced to read before joining this site.   

Agreed. That basically sums this all up beautifully.

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters, I decided to try this out for myself. My natural inclination would be that yes, P3 and P4 should be angled to the screen in order for things to feel right. They have a few 4 player games there, and I checked - all the joysticks from the factory are installed straight up (no angling).

I put some credits in and I used the P3 controls (far left). I started off by playing straight-forward, directly in front of the machine. Obviously, I had no issues. I then, stepped to the side, playing as if I were the third player and someone were occupying the P1 area. Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I think visiting an arcade should be one of the recommended steps when building your own cab and/or control panel. 

[yotsuya]

I think visiting an arcade should be one of the recommended steps when building your own cab and/or control panel. 

Amen. When I built my first cab, I went to Castles 'N Coasters and took pictures of my favorite cabs as well as took measurements.

[paigeoliver]

If people visited real arcades rather than following plans seemingly drawn up by people who have never seen a real arcade game then they would stop building this cabinet.



It is only a matter of time before someone in this hobby builds a cabinet that tips over on some kid and kills them. This isn't meant to be funny. It isn't a joke. It is deadly serious. I am actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.

I think visiting an arcade should be one of the recommended steps when building your own cab and/or control panel.  

Amen. When I built my first cab, I went to Castles 'N Coasters and took pictures of my favorite cabs as well as took measurements.

[yotsuya]

Four laughs, a select few of my photos from Castles 'N Coasters (note non-angled factory joysticks):

[DCsegaDH]

If people visited real arcades rather than following plans seemingly drawn up by people who have never seen a real arcade game then they would stop building this cabinet.



It is only a matter of time before someone in this hobby builds a cabinet that tips over on some kid and kills them. This isn't meant to be funny. It isn't a joke. It is deadly serious. I am actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.

I don't know about the Mame cabinets tipping over, aren't most Mame cabinets really heavy and stable. Mine is pretty stable and its a slim one, but mine is only a 2 player if that makes a difference.

I did actually looked at real arcade cabinets to get ideas on what to do right.

[Davros]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

Believe me, I hear the message. All joysticks should face north. Noted.

In my post I was trying to get at a slightly different (specific) issue. No one seems to think it is a terrible mistake to stagger joysticks as some of the arcade examples show. Say you had built a 4p cabinet with staggered joysticks.  Then on this cabinet realized you wanted to play Smash TV. Is it better to play both north with staggered hands OR for this game on this cab angle sticks and play with parallel facing sticks (but now angled) and does the software for U360 offer you the ability to do this? 

[DaveMMR]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

Believe me, I hear the message. All joysticks should face north. Noted.

In my post I was trying to get at a slightly different (specific) issue. No one seems to think it is a terrible mistake to stagger joysticks as some of the arcade examples show. Say you had built a 4p cabinet with staggered joysticks.  Then on this cabinet realized you wanted to play Smash TV. Is it better to play both north with staggered hands OR for this game on this cab angle sticks and play with parallel facing sticks (but now angled) and does the software for U360 offer you the ability to do this? 

The staggering looks to be a way to physically separate the players from each other, but it's still kept straight to allow the player to stand almost anywhere and be able to control the character. (Though on the Open Ice picture above, it appears that only the buttons are staggered.) 

If wanting to play Smash TV and 4-player games are a concern, you can probably leave the actual sticks straight on the same horizontal line and stagger the P3 and P4 buttons instead.  Because if you angle the sticks (and remap with U360 software or in MAME for the 2-stick games like Smash TV), you are physically dictating where the player has to stand - and this is what leads to dangerously oversized panels to compensate for that very specific standing space.

As to Paige's point: I think oversized panels are ever more of a concern now with the advent of the skinny cabs, which has a lot less back weight to keep it standing up (and I've seen panels that must weigh more than the rest of the cab combined.)
 

[kahlid74]

I wound up deciding to redo the current machines CP for a different reason and I'll not angle the sticks this time.  For me, the angling has always been done because it's easy for me to take Lusid's button diagram and tilt it and be done.  Then again I'm super lazy and wind up having to do things multiple times because I always take fing shortcuts.

Not angling the joysticks seems like a foreign concept to me but alas I shall try it and see how it turns out.  I honestly just can't remember arcades enough to remember the orientation of the sticks.  I'd like to think that since I've been playing them since the 80's I would remember but I'm a dolt, so oh well.  I always was more into the run inside arcade, put coins in and play the bejeebus out of it.

Oh well, no time like the present to fix it right.

[Vigo]

Has anyone ever played a 3 player Real Ghostbusters by Dataeast? The game suspiciously looks like player 2 and 3 are angled. I can't find a manual on he dedicated machine to tell.

[Le Chuck]

Ripped this off a KLOV for sale page.  So far I can only find the conversion manual and you can't tell for sure from the pic but I'm betting it's the right way. 

[paigeoliver]

I checked the dedicated manual, it doesn't have any panel drawing, but I promise they aren't angled, Data East isn't stupid. Angled buttons doesn't mean angled sticks.

The dedicated Real Ghostbusters is kind of odd though because player 3 gets a right hand stick rather than a left hand one.

[DogFish]

from my own personal experience, this is the kind of situation that led me to draw out my preliminary plan for my arcade controller with angled stick's. and in that situation, it works fine, which led me to assume that it would work fine on a 4 player arcade control panel. alas, i have been slapped upside the back of the head and informed just how much of a bone-headed idea it is. but to continue, me thinks is just a situtuation of console gamer's imparting a bit of casual-gamer non-wisdom when exploring avenues outside the comfort of thier console of choice (as a pc gamer, i firmly believe that console gamers have destroyed my beloved FPS games, but thats a story for another board...)

anyway anyway anyway...
with the help of some very helpful member's of this board, i have come to the conclusion that at the very least, the controls should be aligned with the edge of the controller closest the person playing, as top serve as a reference point to the angle of the sticks. while a lot of people might think it is less than ideal having sticks angled at all, i think its acceptable if done with a physical, feelable reference point.

i've included a photo of my cardboard mock-up arcade control panel, as you can see in the pic all four sticks are angled (all four drawings of sticks, whatever...) i've since rectified the middle two sticks to the standard north towards monitor config, but i am keeping the two outer sticks and buttons as they are in the photo of the mock up. i figure the physical reference point of the edge of the control panel will serve fine as a way of instinctively knowing which way is which. if it doesn't work out, then the joke is on me and i've just wasted a $20 sheet of MDF and a $120 sheet of polycarbonate (lexan to all you americans )


anyway, thats some food for thought. i've enjoyed this thread quite a bit, cheers 

[paigeoliver]

No, it doesn't work. The edge of the control panel does not serve as a good reference point. If it did then angled sticks would work, since 90 percent of the panels that make the mistake of having angled sticks line them up with the panel edge.

 :banghead:They don't work. They don't work. They don't work. 

I bet I could make a lot of money selling the names of the people who read all about how angled sticks don't work and still want to try it anyway to multilevel marketing people!

[Howard_Casto]

Someone who decided upon 18 admin buttons (yes 18, I counted them!) should probably reconsider rebuking the peanut gallery's opinion.  Just mho. 

[DaveMMR]

from my own personal experience, this is the kind of situation that led me to draw out my preliminary plan for my arcade controller with angled stick's. and in that situation, it works fine, which led me to assume that it would work fine on a 4 player arcade control panel. alas, i have been slapped upside the back of the head and informed just how much of a bone-headed idea it is. but to continue, me thinks is just a situtuation of console gamer's imparting a bit of casual-gamer non-wisdom when exploring avenues outside the comfort of thier console of choice (as a pc gamer, i firmly believe that console gamers have destroyed my beloved FPS games, but thats a story for another board...)

anyway anyway anyway...
with the help of some very helpful member's of this board, i have come to the conclusion that at the very least, the controls should be aligned with the edge of the controller closest the person playing, as top serve as a reference point to the angle of the sticks. while a lot of people might think it is less than ideal having sticks angled at all, i think its acceptable if done with a physical, feelable reference point.

i've included a photo of my cardboard mock-up arcade control panel, as you can see in the pic all four sticks are angled (all four drawings of sticks, whatever...) i've since rectified the middle two sticks to the standard north towards monitor config, but i am keeping the two outer sticks and buttons as they are in the photo of the mock up. i figure the physical reference point of the edge of the control panel will serve fine as a way of instinctively knowing which way is which. if it doesn't work out, then the joke is on me and i've just wasted a $20 sheet of MDF and a $120 sheet of polycarbonate (lexan to all you americans )


anyway, thats some food for thought. i've enjoyed this thread quite a bit, cheers 

While I think angling in relation to the front of the panel is slightly better than random angles, it's also time spent needlessly. When you install them straight, you don't have to cut a bunch of edges, etc. And contrary to popular belief, you are not spacing out people optimally since players are REQUIRED to stand in a very specific spot. When sticks are straight they can stand pretty much anywhere.

If you still want the angles go for it, but I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented in this particular case.

[Le Chuck]

Dogfish, why is it better that I would need to look at the CP to know which way is up?  What makes the top edge of the panel less of a candidate for orientation than the bottom?  Do you play staring at your hands?  I am sure that in a few months your panel will be complete and you'll come back on and declare victory over all who told you to orient your sticks correctly and I wish you well but this isn't a case of opinion.  There is a correct way to do this and an incorrect way.  Preference over one way or another does not change the correctness.

I present the Q-Bert Theory

If sticks aren't designed to have a fixed orientation as related to the screen then why does Q-Bert have a purposefully angled stick and why is it so hard to get a decent score when playing on an incorrectly angled stick?  Ergo if Q-Bert is designed to play with the joystick angled to a certain degree then all other games are designed to play with the joystick angled to a certain degree.  Corollary:  If the game has an up direction that equals moving parallel to the edges of the screen from bottom to top then the controller is meant to be oriented to produce a physical manifestation of that onscreen movement, just as Q-Bert's joystick is oriented to mirror onscreen movement.    

[paigeoliver]

You know in the past I have actually TRIED to stand at an angle to do better at Q*Bert on a normal stick and it doesn't help one bit.

Dogfish obviously knows more about this than two generations of experts at Atari, Sega, Midway and Konami. It is too bad the industry is dead, otherwise he could have really showed them a thing or two about the right way to set up their 4 player machines.

Why do you think this is something that you can somehow beat. What exactly is the situation that you are trying to fix with those angled sticks? The gamepad obsessed gremlin in the back of your head that thinks it is smarter than all the engineering teams that put together every 4 player game ever made.

I do actually recall seeing a very early (mid 70s) 4 player Snake type game at an auction that angled the joysticks, but for the life of me I can't remember which game it was. I was almost certain it was a Midway Checkmate but I owned one of those some years later and the sticks weren't angled. Perhaps it was an early run machine and they fixed the problem afterwards. Those 4 player snake games were pretty much the first 4 player joystick games out there and even then they quickly figured out they shouldn't angle the sticks.

[Vigo]

Well, one thing I will say in defense of "the industry" arguement is that Konami, Midway, Atari and Sega never had to deal with throwing 4 players with 20+ buttons between them, a trackball, spinner and God knows what else on to just one panel.

My point only really covers player 3/4 angling, not really a defense for P1/P2 angling, and you can make an easy argument that that much shouldn't be that much on one panel to begin with. But considering that an authentic arcade machines never used to dare taking up more than a few extra inches on each side of the cabinet, there isn't a whole lot of "industry standard" to cover some of the angling law on the frankenpanels.

[BadMouth]

I don't get the "standing too close" arguement.

Which direction you push the joystick to move up has no bearing on how close you stand to another player.
A Gauntlet Legends CP has player #4 standing all the way on the side of the CP, but they still press the joystick toward the monitor to move up.
If they pressed the joystick forward in relation to themselves instead, they'd still be standing in the same friggin' place.

The appearance arguement makes no sense either, as you can't even tell which way a joystick is positioned unless it's indicated by the CP art or the bolts are showing.

The "feels right to me" arguement holds solid. (even if it feels wrong to me    )
The important thing is that you know ahead of time how most arcade CPs were done and why.
If you like angled better, it's your cab, build exactly what you want.

[Green Giant]

Calm down guys.  I have solved dogfish's problem as well as the angling dilemma completely.

With my simple modification, angled sticks can work perfectly.


I presume industry execs avoided this as the added cost in materials would be bad.

[Vigo]

A Gauntlet Legends CP has player #4 standing all the way on the side of the CP, but they still press the joystick toward the monitor to move up.
If they pressed the joystick forward in relation to themselves instead, they'd still be standing in the same friggin' place.

I don't think other players have much of an effect as well, but I guess I like to sit and play devil's advocate here.  I would not rank Gauntlet Legends (non-pedestal) upright as a shining example of a well designed 4 player CP. You simply did not wan't to be player 4 on that machine. More than 10 minutes in and you would get a kink in your neck from playing with your head cranked to the side. Your wrist would get sore as you would try to correct your body position. Gauntlet 1 and 2 are not as big of a deal because there in essence is only one button you have to worry about. Potions were used few and far between.

I also have to point out that my Trog 4 player has the almost the same layout as a Gauntlet, when I bring in someone to play at player 4, they constantly get mixed up as to which direction is up. Sometimes they go from the angle they were standing, sometimes they go 90 degrees if they stood perfectly to the side. I believe since Gauntlet had the Atari Joysticks with the label to show which direction is up, as well as the tick marks on the CP art, it gives guidance to the players playing from a funky angle. Trog had Wicos and no art to designate up. It leads me to believe that towards the screen is not always the natural up for people who don't have that notion ingrained in their mind already.

In the end, that leads me to come at the same conclusion as you. For the people that want to angle, more power to you. It might, however, feel weird to me.

[paigeoliver]

That would almost fix it. Now all we need to do is to add additional monitors on the sides for players that match the angles of the sticks.

Of course all this brings up the much more important reality that you aren't going to be playing more than a handful of fully populated 4 player games over the life of your machine unless you have 3 or 4 children (and do you really want to burden your least dominant children with cruddy angled sticks when they can barely see the screen).

4 player machines rarely saw much 4 player action out in the wild after they were a few months old and when they did it was mostly kids playing not adults.

I once owned a 4 player TMNT cabinet and had several 4 player boards that could go in it and when I had people over they would wait to play on it two at a time rather than all squish in at once.

Really, do YOU want to squish up against 3 sweaty adult nerds just to play the Simpsons? I sure don't.

Last time I played a fully populated 4 player upright was like 6 years ago and it was a Pong clone and the game lasted about 90 seconds.

Calm down guys.  I have solved dogfish's problem as well as the angling dilemma completely.

With my simple modification, angled sticks can work perfectly.


I presume industry execs avoided this as the added cost in materials would be bad.