What's up with the angling?

[DaveMMR]

First off, let me preface by saying I'm not picking on anyone's project or plans in particular.

Anyway, I've kind of gotten over the "outer" players on 4-player panels being angled in relation to the front. But I've seen more than a handful of new CPs being built or designed with the inside (or only) sticks angled as well. What set this trend off? Is being too close to player two that humongous of a concern?

I kind of tried it out with my own panel, pretending different points on the stick being "up". And I felt weird, like I was frightened to stand directly in front on the game. My tests were a bit unscientific to be honest - but I can't imagine it working out well (except maybe Q*Bert or Congo Bongo) for any long period of time.

I dunno. I'm just curious. Anyone have any experiences or opinions about the main sticks being laid out that way?

[kahlid74]

When I was working on my latest cab I messed around with this using Lusid's button format.  My primary thoughts were ergonomics and how it felt while playing.  If I angled player 1/2 I could shrink the control panel size by close to a foot making it a smaller cab all together.  In the end I didn't do this because it just felt weird to be honest but it was a fun exercise to better understand it.

[leapinlew]

The reason I don't understand why anyone would do it is because you never saw a layout like that in the arcade. If you are building a arcade game for authenticity, why would you change one of the most critical things?

[Green Giant]

To be honest I think it is just cockyness coupled with lack of experience.

If you were not an arcade expert, you would think, the controls should always point at the screen.  Hence the need for the angling.

The problem is every human alive learned to play arcades on straight button layouts.  It just feels unnatural when the buttons are at an angle.




I guess the best example would be the common QWERTY keyboard.  It is a fact that there is a much more efficient keyboard design, but QWERTY is so ingrained that we don't want to change.  Just an FYI, QWERTY was designed to slow down typing and encourage alternating a letter from each hand to reduce the chance the mechanical typewriter would jam up when the keys hit the paper.




It kind of reminds me of the guys that do the curved button layout because they say when you put your hand down your fingers make a curve.  This is true but when you assume the arcade button smashing position, your fingers are bent forming a fairly straight line where the buttons lay.

[kahlid74]

To be honest I think it is just cockyness coupled with lack of experience.

If you were not an arcade expert, you would think, the controls should always point at the screen.  Hence the need for the angling.

The problem is every human alive learned to play arcades on straight button layouts.  It just feels unnatural when the buttons are at an angle.




I guess the best example would be the common QWERTY keyboard.  It is a fact that there is a much more efficient keyboard design, but QWERTY is so ingrained that we don't want to change.  Just an FYI, QWERTY was designed to slow down typing and encourage alternating a letter from each hand to reduce the chance the mechanical typewriter would jam up when the keys hit the paper.




It kind of reminds me of the guys that do the curved button layout because they say when you put your hand down your fingers make a curve.  This is true but when you assume the arcade button smashing position, your fingers are bent forming a fairly straight line where the buttons lay.

This is a different entity from what the OP's original grip/question was.  If you've never actually angled the buttons you should try it.  You don't really gain a true perspective until you play it on wood with angled buttons.  Angled buttons are super ergonomic and prevent finger fatigue.  Yeah yeah, catch phrase smatch phrase but it really works man.  I noticed a huge difference after two hours of playing.  On my straight line buttons my fingers would cramp but on the angled buttons I can play longer.

[Vigo]

I, for the life of me, could never get myself to use one of those "ergonomic keyboards". You know the kind where it is cut in half, angled on each side, then the middle is nothing but dead space. To me, they feel awkward and unnatural, look stupid, and handicap the rest of the human race that is used to straight keyboards.

There are people out there who function better with, and love those keyboards.

I guess my point is, it is someones personal machine, I am not gonna rail on them for not being authentic, being cocky or even being inexperienced. I may personally not like it, but my brain has only been tuned to using P1/P2 controls only one specific way.

I have been down the angled controls route before for player's 3 and 4, when I was surprised how many times I was seeing them angled. I finally tried it on someone else's cab, and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Green eggs and Ham moment for me.

[BadMouth]

This is a different entity from what the OP's original grip/question was.  If you've never actually angled the buttons you should try it.  You don't really gain a true perspective until you play it on wood with angled buttons.  Angled buttons are super ergonomic and prevent finger fatigue.  Yeah yeah, catch phrase smatch phrase but it really works man.  I noticed a huge difference after two hours of playing.  On my straight line buttons my fingers would cramp but on the angled buttons I can play longer.

OP is talking about the joystick being angled.  On original arcade games, up on the joystick was always parallel with the sides of the cab, even if the player were standing to the side and the buttons were angled.  Basically the joystick is aligned with your character on the screen, not your body's angle to the arcade machine.  Even though the buttons were angled so the joystick handle and buttons were square with your body, the joystick was not angled.

I think it might just be a matter of younger people being used to playing with controllers, so they want the controls squared with their body.

Notice where UP is on this gauntlet panel.  Noob's would have UP facing toward the center of the panel.

[DaveMMR]

The button angling or curving isn't all that much of a concern (as long as your design is not over-angled, like straight up). Albeit, I believe over-thinking ergonomics is time wasted that could otherwise be spent on other things. Straight across is fine (SFII), slight curve is okay, extreme angles should be tested extensively with two players on many rounds of fighting games (and at that point - just go with one of the standards.)

Just for clarity though, I am referring to Player 1 and 2 joysticks being set up an an angle that's at least 15 degrees off center, but not even 45 degrees.  That is what's baffling me a bit...

I guess my point is, it is someones personal machine, I am not gonna rail on them for not being authentic, being cocky or even being inexperienced. I may personally not like it, but my brain has only been tuned to using P1/P2 controls only one specific way.

You know what I agree but I can't imagine this is comfortable in any way except for the person building it, as he/she is rationalize their decision to install the sticks that way.  So I bring this up not to say "hey stop doing things wrongs!"  But I think it's starting to spread and suddenly people are dropping a couple of bills on wood, artwork, lexan - and not to mention time - because they were getting the idea from someone else's project.  It's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but seems terrible in practice.

I believe in "do whatever you want" with the rest of the cab - but bad controls could potentially make the cab a chore  to play and as a result, almost useless.

I have been down the angled controls route before for player's 3 and 4, when I was surprised how many times I was seeing them angled. I finally tried it on someone else's cab, and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Green eggs and Ham moment for me.

Unauthentic to arcade, yes - but it's not horrible when the front of the cab (like half an octagon shape) is parallel to the angle of the sticks (which is typically 45 degrees).  Just again to clarify, what I am seeing is the main (P1 and P2) sticks, angled not at all parallel to the front edge and not even at 0/360 or 45 degrees (like it's almost random). 

(Sorry I can't provide examples, but there are a couple in Proj. Announce.  I do not want to single anyone out.)

[Ond]

I think it's probably down to a stubborn attachment to aesthetics i.e. builders don't care about the practicality of a stick at an odd angle from the plane of the screen they just want the look of their CP to be like that.  You can get used to anything I guess, but practical design is another matter.

[drventure]

Interesting. I've noticed the same thing lately. I don't recall cp's that popped up around here from back even just a few years ago with p1-2 sticks angled, but I've seen several of them in the last few months.

Seems like they've always been nods to the angled front edge of the CP's though, which tends to indicate more of a design decision than and functional one. Ond's right , though, you can get used to anything (see laptop keyboards vs desktop, big L shaped enter key vs single row enter key, etc).

[Le Chuck]

That gauntlet CP is the perfect example of how to handle the issue.  If you want to crowd everybody together that's fine, if you want to put the buttons at various clock positions with respect to the joy and monitor that's fine too but UP should always translate in relation to the monitor because players are watching the screen and not their hands.  Rotating the joystick on axis does nothing to the ergonomics, it will work exactly the same and produce the same fatigues because that rotation doesn't alter the way it fits in your hand so anybody who claims ergonomics for rotating a joystick is barking up the wrong tree... in fact I don't even think it's a tree.

Button position is a whole other issue and I've seen a lot of builds on here start to angle the button layouts to "prevent jostling" which I've found to be malarky personally but doesn't affect gameplay significantly.  If it looks cool and plays fine then knock your socks off.  When the users start moving the relative position of UP away from direct screen orientation that is where the waters get murky for playability because the brain wants the way you move the joystick to correlate directly to the way the little man moves on screen whether or not that joystick movement is in line with the body or laterally like when you're playing as Thor or Questor.

So the trick is separating the discussion and advice of button position from UP orientation because I think that we can pretty much agree that while position is a matter or preference there is only one right answer for UP... unless you're Q-Bert... or marble madness... or nevermind.    

[Green Giant]

I guess the best example would be the common QWERTY keyboard.  It is a fact that there is a much more efficient keyboard design, but QWERTY is so ingrained that we don't want to change.  Just an FYI, QWERTY was designed to slow down typing and encourage alternating a letter from each hand to reduce the chance the mechanical typewriter would jam up when the keys hit the paper.

Don't repeat urban legends.

http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html

Ok, if I remove the statement about more efficient designs, then everything else is true.

Also, that article does nothing to say QWERTY is the best design, it just says DVORAK is not an obvious improvement.  Although I still believe there are more efficient keyboard designs, might not be Dvorak, but I didn't even realize that was the common comparison.  



I guess I should have used the Beta Max VHS analogy.  Once a standard becomes accepted it is difficult to change it.

But if you want to argue about standards and efficiency, there is no argument.  There are many many areas where standard activities are done inefficiently, but the effort to change the process is to much of a pain in the ass to deal with.

Hence why angled arcade controls are a bad plan unless every single person who plays on your machine has plenty of time to break all of their old habits.

[Vigo]

I have been down the angled controls route before for player's 3 and 4, when I was surprised how many times I was seeing them angled. I finally tried it on someone else's cab, and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Green eggs and Ham moment for me.

Unauthentic to arcade, yes - but it's not horrible when the front of the cab (like half an octagon shape) is parallel to the angle of the sticks (which is typically 45 degrees).  Just again to clarify, what I am seeing is the main (P1 and P2) sticks, angled not at all parallel to the front edge and not even at 0/360 or 45 degrees (like it's almost random). 

I hear what you are saying, and frankly i do agree. I don't know if I could wrap my mind around a slightly offset joystick. The P3/P4 I have come to terms with were 45 degree joysticks on a half octagon. I don't want to rail on this idea just yet because I used to think there was no way you could angle any controller on a cab and have it work.

Put me in the "skeptical, but not ready to to knock a method I have't tried yet" category.

[Green Giant]

When QWERTY was created it was far from the industry standard.  The jamming problem was solved on type writers very early and it was many years before QWERTY took over, and it was done in the face of a lot of competitors.  Point being, it's the standard because people preferred it and not because some nefarious designer was attempting to slow typists down.


Anyway, now that you know, it's one of those things that'll drive you nuts like "NASA spent millions on a pen, the Soviets used a pencil" and "the creator of Fahrenheit made 100 degrees equal to the hottest day of the year" and other nonsense stories people like to repeat.

Angled control panels mean you don't have to touch the guy standing next to you.  Works for me.

Haha, the nasa one is pretty funny.  Never seen the email talking about Fahrenheit. 



My main complaint with angled though is that new users on your arcade will find it awkward.  They will just find something different without being able to pinpoint it probably.

But if you are putting a trackball in the middle of the CP, I really don't see a need to angle it to separate players.  That seems like overkill.

[ark_ader]

Does it relieve hand cramp?

[Vater]

Forgive me if someone has brought it up, but skimming through I didn't see anyone mention it.  There's at least one original arcade game (series, more accurately) that has angled joysticks, and oddly enough the front of the control panel is not contoured or angled at all, but parallel with the screen.  I own an original Virtua Fighter cabinet, and when I first played around with it I found that it was difficult to move the characters in the direction I wanted them to go, and I couldn't figure out why...until I opened the control panel.


Photo courtesy of Google image search; not my cab

Even on the outside you can tell that the control sets (joy and buttons together) for each player are angled slightly toward center.  But the control panel graphic with all its 90° angles can throw you off.  I'll have to snap a picture of the underside of the CP tonight (it's off the cab as its in the process of a MAME conversion), but the joys are definitely not parallel with the face of the monitor.

Bottom line is, I agree with most everyone here that it doesn't feel right when the joys are angled.  I'd be interested to know if there are any other games around with this setup.  It would be odd if the VF series was the only one.

[DaveMMR]

Vater, can't really tell by the picture, I don't see the bolt heads to determine.  But disregard the buttons - is the joystick mounting plate itself parallel to the straight lines where the up position is directly towards the screen (i.e. 12 O'Clock)?  

You know, if you opened that up and told me they mounted those sticks at an angle, I would be genuinely shocked (or it's a really bad conversion job by an op.)  

EDIT: I looked up the manual (only found VF2 - but I assume it's the same).  It looks indeed to be angled.  Hmmm.... don't get why they'd do it that way?  But I'm not much of a VF player.

Here's the manual - see page 35 (copy and paste - can't use hyperlink markup due to brackets in address):

Code: [Select]

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/ARCADE/S-Z/Virtua%20Fighter%202%20[Service]%20[English].pdf
EDIT #2: Yes VF1 and VF2 are the same - here's the manual for VF1: http://www.crazykong.com/manuals/VirtuaFighter.man.pdf

[bkenobi]

The link didn't work for me, but it is on the site...

[DaveMMR]

Fixed it.  I'm bad at this.   

[drventure]

There's at least one original arcade game (series, more accurately) that has angled joysticks

Awesome. I sense a disturbance in the force....   

[BadMouth]

There's at least one original arcade game (series, more accurately) that has angled joysticks

Awesome. I sense a disturbance in the force....  

This bothers me.....really bothers me.

We must re-orient all the joysticks in VF2 cabs, burn the manuals, and never speak of this again.  

(Good find though)

[Vater]

I find it funny that no one was aware of this (including myself before I bought one).  I was never a Virtua Fighter player either (I remember playing a couple times when it was first released because it was all new and 3-dimensiony and stuff), but--as I'm sure most of you would expect--it genuinely feels natural to play assuming the sticks are oriented at 90°, which messes up your movements.

The greater problem with the VF panel in particular is, there is absolutely nothing that would indicate at what angle the joysticks are positioned.  It's not even consistent on each side.  If you look at the picture (even more evident in the manual DaveMMR linked to), button 1 (Defense) is positioned in a different spot in relation to each joystick.

[DaveMMR]

I'll save everyone the trouble of flipping through the manual; I attached the diagram.



Vater, good spotting.  I'm genuinely in shock and now I'm beginning to wonder. I haven't looked under many panels: are they all crooked and I'm just assuming otherwise because translates it "correctly" somehow?

Come to think of it, I did seem to "jump back" a lot the few times I played Virtua Fighter. I though I just sucked at it.  

I don't know - doesn't seem to make logical sense but, admittedly, what I know about arcade machines is relatively minuscule. I think I'm doing some more research on this.  

 

[yotsuya]

Maybe their market research showed them that most arcade players would rather not be standing right next to one another while playing fighters? 

[Le Chuck]

Maybe their market research showed them that most arcade players would rather not be standing right next to one another while playing fighters? 

But how were they [we] supposed to figure it out?  Arrows or something would've helped.  I'm not up on my VF history but wasn't it supposed to be somewhat ground-breaking?  Maybe the devs were trying to shake up the way players play - deciding that right and left should be relative to a player's feet when standing at the cab or some such wackiness. 

[Vater]

That's exactly what I suspect, Le Chuck; because of the groundbreaking nature of the game, and possibly because there were fewer buttons than on typical fighters, the devs may have wanted a more laid back approach to player orientation or something.  Unfortunately it seems like the dude that designed the layout of the controls and the graphic designer of the panel itself weren't on speaking terms.

Edit: Took a quick pic of the underside of the CP.

[Xiaou2]

Ive been under the hood of Tons of machines.  In the arcade I managed, there were 42 games at any one point in time. Titles rotated every now and then as well.

 I didnt initially recall VF having angled sticks.  It made like a dollar a week, so I rarely had to touch it. However, none of the other games Id seen had angled sticks.  VF hardly matters... not only because the game is so crappy.. but also because jumping is something you Dont want to do in that game.  10min of slow motion flight... ugg.  Pit Fighter has better gameplay than VF  heh. (I now have a feeling Sega was trying to sabbotage the player, so that it would make the player spend a bit more money to cover the losses of its craptastic creation)

 Some Idiot did however install angled sticks on a Tekken Pedestal unit... and I couldnt play it for crap as a result.  A lot of games came as Kits... and it was up to the Op's / Managers to install them.

 
 Angled buttons are one thing.. but sticks should always be parallel to the monitor.  Most people instinctively press north as Up, no matter which way their body is facing, when playing at an arcade control panel.

 Also, theres a difference between a straight set of angled buttons, and buttons that are laid out in a circular or non-linear shape.  When buttons are aligned squared, its easy to know where buttons are.  However, when they are at odd alignments to each other... unless you actually Look at the buttons, you can get lost / confused.  You can end up hitting the wrong button, or hit the buttons hard edges...rather than the center of the buttons.   Maybe thats why some Japanese cabinets switched to convex (raised) buttons.. to help with the poor layout choices in some cabinets.

 The Majority pretty much speaks for itself... and its that way for very good reasons.
 

[amendonz]

I'd def go for north south joysticks but I don't think it's that bigger deal. When playing on console using stick I don't need to perfectly align myself with the tv. 

[Le Chuck]

I'd def go for north south joysticks but I don't think it's that bigger deal. When playing on console using stick I don't need to perfectly align myself with the tv. 

no but you're playing with sticks that have a clearly defined up in relation to the joypad which allows you to play so smoothly off kilter.  If you rotated up to 15 degrees on an analog stick joypad you'd probably have a helluva time for a bit tell you adjusted.

[amendonz]

Yeah but your whole body is angled with the joystick.  If I were to stay aligned head on(on angled) it would feel weird, but i'd imagine you would stand at an angle making up for the angle. Not saying it's a good set up at all, just I think it would be workable.

[kahlid74]

This is really interesting.  I never thought about this.  I'm not super young but my arcade days were mostly 88 and on and I don't really remember this with 4 player games.  Every cab I build has the joystick angled because it's easy for me to take Lusid's layout and angle it on the top of the control panel, tape down and drill.  My first cab from 2003 is still played fairly often at a friends house (we played four player during Super Bowl) and no one had any issues with the angled joysticks.  Now that I think about it, it does take a few moments to get accustomed to the up direction towards the monitor not being 100% up but then you adjust and don't think about it again.

Very interesting.

[Gray_Area]

Angled control panels mean you don't have to touch the guy standing next to you.  Works for me.

I see you're studiously trying to avoid your true nature.


Yeah, I've noticed this, too. Looks aesthetically interesting. Looks functionally problematic. But then, I think I remember some kid back in the day playing on Atari or something with the stick diagonal-facing, and he rocked. Reminds me of them teaching us to write with our papers at an angle and all that in school. I still do that sometimes, before I notice the crook in my damn neck.

[Howard_Casto]

You know I always told people back in the day that VF was garbage and the controls handled like a..... well garbage truck.  Now I have proof. 

Weird angles and designs are always caused by one thing when you look into it... the franken-panel.  People are trying to stuff 20 pounds of crap in a 10 pound sack.  The angled design is their way to try to stuff more uselessness on.  The trend to do two rows of four buttons, simply because consoles do so, is eating up a lot of room... even on modest panels. 

I would also like to point out that on those rare arcade games where the joysticks WERE angled, directional input wasn't curcial to the game.  I know a few 4-player cabinets did it, but they housed isometric beat-em-ups.  The only thing you use the joystick for in those games is to very slowly adjust your walking direction... it isn't like street fighter where a mis-aligned joystick would ruin your game.

[Xiaou2]

You know I always told people back in the day that VF was garbage and the controls handled like a..... well garbage truck.  Now I have proof.  Cheesy

 It wasnt just the angles of the sticks. The game used Happ Ultimates... which didnt work well for very long due to the fast wear of the spacers.  Of course, there were some other 3d fighters and 3d games, which also stunk around that time.  Quite simply put.. .the technology for 3d used in a fighting game, just wasnt ready for prime time.

Weird angles and designs are always caused by one thing when you look into it... the franken-panel.  People are trying to stuff 20 pounds of crap in a 10 pound sack.

 Let the Trolling begin      Thats why, on the spacious CP of Virtua Fighters, the sticks were angled?  Ohh, wait.. Contradiction.   There are plenty of large and multi-controller control panels that have correctly angled sticks, that play and feel just fine.

The angled design is their way to try to stuff more uselessness on.

 

Ahh, Uselessness?  I never realized that having a game control the way it was intended... was Useless.  Tempest with joystick?  It will play like BUTT... butt hey, we dont want the control panel to look cluttered or too 'ugly', so that we upset someone... right?!   

The trend to do two rows of four buttons, simply because consoles do so, is eating up a lot of room... even on modest panels.

 Hmm, maybe The[Y], use 8 buttons, to play emulated console games, which use more than 6 buttons?  Maybe they utilize the buttons in different ways, to be more authentic to the original layouts... such as NeoGeo's 4-in-a-row.. yet still able to use the SF style layout as well?   Whats it matter to you that they burn an extra 4" of CP space to make THEMSELVES HAPPY, playing THEIR CONTROL PANELS?

 Stop being so black and white.

 Theres a big difference between not knowing something, and making a well informed and decided choice, based on finances, space, and personal preferences.

 The usual decision to angle sticks is simply because many builders have never seen the underside of real arcade machines.  And or they think they can improve upon things... but just dont have the experience.

 
 To the others... Yes, you could train yourself to operate a stick at an angle (but others who are not trained will not be happy).  However, it almost never fails... that you end up making at least one mistake every now and then, due to the stresses in quick action games.   You may also say that your fine with a gamepad at an angle.. so why not a joystick?  The thing is... is that your grip on the controller is very tactile.  You can feel where things are... and thus know instantly which direction is which based on that feel.  With a joystick in a large CP however, theres nothing tactile to feel.  The CP edge isnt really enough.  You Might be able to semi-solve this with some vertical linear bumps.  But even that may not be quite enough.  Its far better to just keep the sticks parallel to the monitor.

[amendonz]

er no, not gamepad I was talking about playing with a arcade stick on console.

[DaveMMR]

er no, not gamepad I was talking about playing with a arcade stick on console.

The thing with that (whether it's gamepad or arcade stick), those are something you hold in relation to your body.  They are not screwed down to anything.  But the fact of the matter is that an arcade machine's controls are not like a console's where you can move it around, bring it closer or change the angle to accommodate your position.

I think a lot of newer, younger builders are thinking "consoles" when planning their arcade machines instead of "arcade". That's why, as Howard said, you're seeing many 8 BPP (buttons per player) setups on extra-wide panels with gratuitous angling. You don't sit in close proximity to your friend playing a console - so you can't be too close to anyone at the cabinet. You look down and see your arcade stick eschew while you're playing - you translate that to the control panel.

Builders who think "arcade" when building arcade machines tend to emulate the most versatile real-world arcade layout depending on their needs. This would typically be your standard 6-button Street Fighter layout, the Neo-Geo layout or a simple two or three button row. The spacing between players is minimal: enough so players have the room needed but can still see the screen straight-on. And, VF notwithstanding, the sticks are installed straight (up at 12 o'clock) because the designers have no idea where the player will be standing - having the reference point a stationary object (monitor) means joystick motions are intuitive no matter where you stand.

I think the best piece advice for people designing control panels for arcade cabinets is remembering that you're making this - not this. Otherwise, there might be some frustration down the road.

As for the Virtua Fighter layout - I'm guessing it may be due to the fact that this was around the time Sega was clearing starting to lose it's mind. 

[Vater]

While I definitely think straight alignment with the monitor is best (and will be doing so when I build my CP), I don't see anything inherently wrong with angling the sticks and buttons...except when there's no indication they're angled, as in the case of VF.  I find it astounding that there's nothing angled on the CP art--even the button labels are parallel with the screen!

If someone wants angled controls on their CP, I couldn't care less; I'm never gonna play their cab.  Seems that some arcade purists can get pretty bent out of shape over silly stuff.

[CheffoJeffo]

My only contribution here is a solid  to vater for being the first person that I have ever seen to find a concrete example of angled sticks on a factory cabinet.

[Vater]

Heh, thanks, although had I not bought a VF cab and happened upon this thread the other day, the profound affect of the angled sticks on my VF CP wouldn't have even entered my mind. Good timing, I guess.

[CheffoJeffo]

Well, to be fair, the sticks are Happ Ultimates ... it's not like anybody would actually notice the angling!

 

[Howard_Casto]

Xaiou2:

Rather than responding to your illogical counter-arguments that rely on the ONE EXCEPTION amoung thousands of arcade games, let me just say this:


Isn't that kind of the pot calling the kettle black? I mean you've pretty much been crowned "king troll" at this point. 

[DaveMMR]

If someone wants angled controls on their CP, I couldn't care less; I'm never gonna play their cab.  Seems that some arcade purists can get pretty bent out of shape over silly stuff.

That is fair.  But even though we're comparing to arcade standards, it's more about playability.  And while I shouldn't really care what other people choose to do, I should disclose that I do peruse people's panels all the time and a part of me gets a little disappointed when an otherwise gorgeous, well-constructed panel might play poorly due to breaking away from the norm. It's heartbreaking when you put time, effort and money into something and your friends complain about it being "broken". I'm not trying to dictate what should be done so much as giving new builders some food for thought. Thorough testing is always the best practice before committing to anything permanent.

And I think arrows would only help a little bit: are you looking at the screen on the control panel when playing? As some point, reflexes take over in the thick of battle.

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make "rotatable" controls where the joystick/buttons rest of movable circle within the panel itself so you can move it slightly in either direction.  It might be overkill, but it definitely would bring the positives of console sticks (being able to position the controls relative to you and/or space yourselves out) while being more intuitive to seasoned arcade players.

And yes, congrats on your find as Cheffo said. 

[Vater]

And I think arrows would only help a little bit: are you looking at the screen on the control panel when playing? As some point, reflexes take over in the thick of battle.

Sure, I totally get that.  My surprise comes from the fact that unless you open the panel, look at the manual, or just eventually figure it out after dropping a s***ton of quarters, you're not going to know they're angled (case in point: this thread).  At least if there were arrows, you can try to ingrain in your brain the angle you should be positioning yourself during the game.  Poetic, eh?  And the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain...

And yes, congrats on your find as Cheffo said.  

Thanks.  I suppose as both a service and disservice to the arcade purists, I'm in the process of converting an original working Virtua Fighter into a MAME cab, complete with borderline Frankenpanel.  A disservice because I'm altering an original cab, and a service because I'm ridding the world of one more control panel with angled joysticks...and a fairly lousy game.

[Howard_Casto]

If someone wants angled controls on their CP, I couldn't care less; I'm never gonna play their cab.  Seems that some arcade purists can get pretty bent out of shape over silly stuff.

That is fair.  But even though we're comparing to arcade standards, it's more about playability.  And while I shouldn't really care what other people choose to do, I should disclose that I do peruse people's panels all the time and a part of me gets a little disappointed when an otherwise gorgeous, well-constructed panel might play poorly due to breaking away from the norm. It's heartbreaking when you put time, effort and money into something and your friends complain about it being "broken". I'm not trying to dictate what should be done so much as giving new builders some food for thought. Thorough testing is always the best practice before committing to anything permanent.

And I think arrows would only help a little bit: are you looking at the screen on the control panel when playing? As some point, reflexes take over in the thick of battle.

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make "rotatable" controls where the joystick/buttons rest of movable circle within the panel itself so you can move it slightly in either direction.  It might be overkill, but it definitely would bring the positives of console sticks (being able to position the controls relative to you and/or space yourselves out) while being more intuitive to seasoned arcade players.

And yes, congrats on your find as Cheffo said. 

+100,000,000

Understand when veterans are voicing their opinion they are NOT telling you what to do, rather they are trying to save you from your own inexperience.  When a newbie comes up with his latest frankenpanel design he sees his "own unique and innovative layout"  we, on the other hand, see a little boy about to stick his finger in a light socket.  You don't know better so it's no fault of your own, but we might... we just don't want to see you get shocked. 

[alfonzotan]

Heck, it works in Wacko...

[paigeoliver]

There was a 4 player 1970s Snake game that also had angled sticks, but that was back before they knew better (arcade games with joysticks instead of paddles were pretty new at the time). There are maybe a half dozen others.

I agree with Howard. People say your angled sticks and innovative button layouts are wrong because they are trying to keep you from making a newbie mistake, one that can potentially be very expensive if you work up a custom panel with artwork only to have it work horribly because of angled sticks and special button layouts.

[danny_galaga]

When QWERTY was created it was far from the industry standard.  The jamming problem was solved on type writers very early and it was many years before QWERTY took over, and it was done in the face of a lot of competitors.  Point being, it's the standard because people preferred it and not because some nefarious designer was attempting to slow typists down.


Anyway, now that you know, it's one of those things that'll drive you nuts like "NASA spent millions on a pen, the Soviets used a pencil" and "the creator of Fahrenheit made 100 degrees equal to the hottest day of the year" and other nonsense stories people like to repeat.

Angled control panels mean you don't have to touch the guy standing next to you.  Works for me.

The Fahrenheit scale is a tad inexplicable though, you must admit...

[Green Giant]

When QWERTY was created it was far from the industry standard.  The jamming problem was solved on type writers very early and it was many years before QWERTY took over, and it was done in the face of a lot of competitors.  Point being, it's the standard because people preferred it and not because some nefarious designer was attempting to slow typists down.


Anyway, now that you know, it's one of those things that'll drive you nuts like "NASA spent millions on a pen, the Soviets used a pencil" and "the creator of Fahrenheit made 100 degrees equal to the hottest day of the year" and other nonsense stories people like to repeat.

Angled control panels mean you don't have to touch the guy standing next to you.  Works for me.

The Fahrenheit scale is a tad inexplicable though, you must admit...

In terms of every day practicality, Fahrenheit is a better measurement system.  Mr. Fahrenheit intentionally adjusted his system to incorporate the human body temperature and freezing point of water on a smooth scale avoiding fractions to ensure the actual scale would work cleanly.  64 degrees separation between freezing water and avg human temp or 6 bisecting lines on a scale.


Celsius is a much better scientific scale.

[CheffoJeffo]

How long before this thread gets sent to PnRnMetric ?

[paigeoliver]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

[leapinlew]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

The only reason I can think why someone would do this is they get over zealous in the BYO spirit and try to re-think everything. Lots of times it's no big deal with a machine being 3" taller, but occasionally you will get someone who decides that a control panel needs to be 60".

[BadMouth]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

......but is the joystick angled?

[Le Chuck]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

You mean no way to fix it besides getting a piece of wood, cutting new holes, and remounting everything right?  I get the huge investment in hardware but CPs themselves aren't overly expensive to create. 

[paigeoliver]

No, the buttons are just a smidge too far apart and the button layout is too angled. It makes it hard to play, particularly on the very kind of games it is supposedly designed to play.

Yes, make a new panel, tossing out the existing panel with custom plexi, artwork, tmolding. It isn't just a matter of the cost of a new piece of wood!  

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

......but is the joystick angled?

[paigeoliver]

Here is a shot of the whole thing. It is beautiful, the quality of the work is top notch and the wiring is pretty clean too (not quite up to dedicated Atari standards but better than most conversion games).

And the button layout is just funky enough to detract from the experience, but not funky enough to make it worth tossing the whole thing out.

[Le Chuck]

You spring for new art, I've got the wood and T-molding already.  I'll spring for plexi and we'll split the beer costs.  Come on over, we'll getchya fixed up on a saturday morning. 

[CheffoJeffo]

What I want to know is if Paige will drive the MAMEmobile there.

[paigeoliver]

Might take you up on that offer once the game fund gets above zero (lost my job a few weeks ago).

[Le Chuck]

Might take you up on that offer once the game fund gets above zero (lost my job a few weeks ago).

Sorry to hear that bro but it's nice to see you back on the forums after hiatus.

[Howard_Casto]

Here is an example from a control panel I personally own. I didn't make this panel myself, I got it in a trade. Someone else made it, although I upgraded some of the controls on it (to perfect 360s with heavy springs and robotron handles).

This panel has around $500 sunk into it and the innovative button layout makes it tedious and difficult to play on and there is literally no way to fix it.

I appreciate you sharing this..... 

I used to hang out in the old irc chatroom constantly (back when people actually went there for help).  People would come in with layouts like that and we would try to steer them away from it.  Soemtimes we could, sometimes we couldn't.  One of the benefits of being a dinosaur like myself is you are around long enough that these same people come back to talk to you... sometimes YEARS after their build.  9 times out of 10 if they took our advice they come back sayng that they are happy with their cab... if they didn't the response is usually something like "boy I wish I would have listened to you guys back then."

I think this is a good example because it looks really nice.  I mean you wouldn't look at that and think that it would be unplayable.... unless you actually have experience with layouts.

[Xiaou2]

Yeah, your Really tooting your own horn now Ay Howie?  You act as if you are the King of Arcade knowledge.. and quite frankly, your not.  Especially back then.  There are people older and wiser, and much Nicer to boot.

if they didn't the response is usually something like "boy I wish I would have listened to you guys back then.

 What about those people you helped guide to use composite instead of Svideo?

 And what about those whos faces you kicked, without their permission, on a trash website?  Im sure that really Helped them too...

 TooT-TooT

[DaveMMR]

Xiaou, Howard doesn't need defending from me but I do have to say that I don't see the point in your derailing of threads to carry out a personal vendetta.  Did his advice of using composite instead of Svideo cause you some sort of irreparable harm that you have to bring it up all these years later? You seriously need to let that go; stop poisoning threads with some off-topic anger issues.

Paige, maybe we need to come up with a "Top 10 CP design choices you should reconsider" (much like your earlier topic on cabinet "mistakes").

[kahlid74]

Just saw this image and it looks sure as heck like the joysticks are slightly angled right?  For players 3/4.

[Hoopz]

I tried angling my joys and it didn't work so I changed it.  Some people may be able to do it but I didn't.  Just personal preference.  I know that I'm different than most people here because I am right handed and use my right hand on the joy stick and use my off hand for the buttons.  Its just about what works for the guys/ladies building their CPs.

[Barry Barcrest]

Just saw this image and it looks sure as heck like the joysticks are slightly angled right?  For players 3/4.

On all these 4 player cabs like this you tend to find no one want's to be the side controllers. This is true of all of them back to the original gaunlet II, TMNT, Simpsons etc... If you are not square on to the screen it's just awkward.

[Hoopz]

On all these 4 player cabs like this you tend to find no one want's to be the side controllers. This is true of all of them back to the original gaunlet II, TMNT, Simpsons etc... If you are not square on to the screen it's just awkward.

Truer words have never been spoken on these forums!   

[paigeoliver]

That Gauntlet Legends machine isn't dedicated, some stoned arcade employee did a half-ass conversion and like many newbies thought he should angle the sticks.

Here is a dedicated panel. Up is up.

[Le Chuck]

True, and also true I still hate playing in the P3 or P4 slot.

[Peja]

This topic is interesting for someone like me who is going to pick up his melamine sheet today and make his first control panel.  This whole time, I figured I would angle my joysticks on players 3 and 4 like  on a mameroom quad player panel.  http://www.mameroom.com/Products_QuadController.asp


Now I read almost everyone here says the 3 and 4 players should be facing straight up.  Now I have a Dynamo showcase cab so it doesn't  effect me too much since I am a ways away from the screen, but now I must make a decision on how to angle/not angle my sticks. 

I keep thinking about me playing a game on a console at home.....I don't need to be directly in front of the screen to know up is up.  I can sit off to the side slightly and still function just fine. 

Decisions Decisions.......

[DaveMMR]

Peja, keep in mind that control panels (or controllers) you hold in your hand and controls permanently installed into a stationary panel are not the same.  With little exception, they should be straight.

I think a lot of issues could be solved by separating any comparisons between the home console and the arcade machine.  

[Peja]

Peja, keep in mind that control panels you hold in your hand and controls permanently installed into a stationary panel are not the same.  With little exception, they should be straight.

I think a lot of issues could be solved by separating any comparisons between the home console and the arcade machine. 

I get what you are saying, I really do.  In fact, even while typing it out, in the back of my head I knew I should probably word it in a way that I wasn't comparing the two apples to apples. 

With that being said, on a setup like mine(which is set on being a 4 player panel), would you make almost a rectangular CP or still have curves for the 3 and 4 player to stand on the side but make their controls still aim up.  For some reason I can't grasp my head around that being a very comfortable layout for the 3 and 4 players. 

Time for a few different cardboard mockups I suppose.

[Green Giant]

I keep thinking about me playing a game on a console at home.....I don't need to be directly in front of the screen to know up is up.  I can sit off to the side slightly and still function just fine. 

Decisions Decisions.......

But think about it like this.

When you play a console you still hold the controller parallel to your body.  When you approach an arcade control panel, you will almost inherently align your shoulders parallel to the control panel/face of the cabinet.

I would imagine you would still feel more comfortable on a showcase control panel with the joysticks pointing up even if the tv was off to the left.

[Peja]

I keep thinking about me playing a game on a console at home.....I don't need to be directly in front of the screen to know up is up.  I can sit off to the side slightly and still function just fine. 

Decisions Decisions.......

But think about it like this.

When you play a console you still hold the controller parallel to your body.  When you approach an arcade control panel, you will almost inherently align your shoulders parallel to the control panel/face of the cabinet.

I would imagine you would still feel more comfortable on a showcase control panel with the joysticks pointing up even if the tv was off to the left.

This is something I will have to try with a mock cut out.  I am not sure I would face straight at it if I was player 3 or 4.  When two other people are already on players 1 and 2, to give myself the most room and be comfortable, I see myself not minding the angle and getting used to it. 

Once again, this is my first CP I am making so the safe bet would be on me not knowing what the heck I am talking about.....

[paigeoliver]

I know your brain might keep saying angle, but your brain is wrong there. Even if the player is basically standing on the side of the panel (like player 3 and 4 on a dedicated Gauntlet) you STILL need to have the sticks face north.

Also, that mameroom panel you linked has the button bank angled, not the joysticks.

Here is another gauntlet legends control panel. this one a showcase. All the joysticks face the monitor.

You can trust darn near every factory built game ever made and the combined knowledge of all the experienced builders here.

Or you can listen to that little part of your brain that can't stop thinking about gamepads (and the people who listened to that part of their brain and refuse to admit they made a mistake).

You will also find that it won't matter much, your cabinet probably won't see much 4 player action regardless (unless you have children). 4 player cabinets were mostly gimmicks to convince game operators that they could get twice the income on one machine. It was rare to see more than 2 people on one out in the arcade, unless the game was brand new. When I owned 4 player machines in the past people would literally just swap out two at a time rather than all cram in around the same machine. Adults just don't like doing that.

[Peja]

I hear ya paigeoliver. 

Now if only I could find a template of a comfortable 4 player CP with trackball I could use as my cutout, I may give it a shot.  Not only will this be for adults but for my hordes of nieces and nephews.  We have a close family so there is a lot of family time. 

Thanks for the advice.

[Vigo]

Time for a few different cardboard mockups I suppose.

Smart man! 

All I can say is that you just need to test it out for yourself, have family and friends try it with you on an angled and straight set up. I have seen the angle work, but as I said on a different thread, I think a few objectives had to be met. The screen had to be large enough and offset enough from the screen. The control panel needs to be very defining of the angle the controls are at, the one I tried was a half octagon shape with the controls lines up with that angle. I think most people here will recommend straight joysticks because it simply works, every time. Shoulders crashing together is a much smaller problem than wonky controls.

I once made an angle mockup for my old 4 player cabinet....it was a huge failure, though I am glad I tested it out. I learned a lot about my layout needs in general from it.

There is simply no downside to over-testing a control panel layout.

[Howard_Casto]

Agreed! One of the reasons I'm so vocal about cp designs is because I've made quite a few mistakes over the years.  I think it was halfway though my second cp (for my first official cabinet) that I started going the whole cardboard route and boy does it save in lumber costs! 

[paigeoliver]

Really, Howard knows what he is talking about! You don't hang around the community for years and years and have as much involvement as he has without learning a thing or two.

People aren't ragging on angled sticks because they are THE MAN, trying to keep you down, trying to keep you from using the BETTER method. They are ragging on angled sticks to keep you from making a possibly very costly mistake.

Agreed! One of the reasons I'm so vocal about cp designs is because I've made quite a few mistakes over the years.  I think it was halfway though my second cp (for my first official cabinet) that I started going the whole cardboard route and boy does it save in lumber costs! 

[loppydog]

This was an interesting read for me.  I built my CAB a few years back and it is only a 2 person:

Not knowing any better, I angled my sticks.  I am pretty happy with the way the buttons feel (kinda angled), but the sticks have always bugged me.  Honestly, I thought that angled stick were the norm.  Now I want to straighten them, but It is going to be kind of a lot of work (routing and re-wiring).  Long story short, I agree, sticks should point north.

[paigeoliver]

That one looks fixable without spending any money, however you would have to drill your new joystick holes through the panel (I am assuming your original ones are under the overlay or something, because I don't see them).

[loppydog]

the underside of the panel is routed to fit the square mount, and screwed from underneath...not the hardest fix.  I would just need to route the "square" pocket "straight" then maybe some re-wiring.  I just wish someone would have told me the right way to do it when I was building.

I found a pic:

[paigeoliver]

Looks like a really nice machine. When you go to do the fix think about upgrading to perfect 360s as long as you are already taking it apart (to get the joysticks up to the same level of quality you seem to have on the rest of the machine). 
 
Do you use left hand on the trackball? That is the only way I can wrap my head around the trackball buttons! 

[loppydog]

yeah, right hand on track ball, left hand on buttons.  It works REALLY well for a mouse, I know it doesnt look like it   I will check out the 360's, are they a good "all around" stick?

[paigeoliver]

Pretty much nicest stick I ever used. I am using mine with robotron handles, but they are nice with the stock handles as well.

The classic Wico leaf may feel just a little bit better, but those never have the great even sized zones of the P360.

yeah, right hand on track ball, left hand on buttons.  It works REALLY well for a mouse, I know it doesnt look like it   I will check out the 360's, are they a good "all around" stick?

[Davros]

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone make "rotatable" controls where the joystick/buttons rest of movable circle within the panel itself so you can move it slightly in either direction.  It might be overkill, but it definitely would bring the positives of console sticks (being able to position the controls relative to you and/or space yourselves out) while being more intuitive to seasoned arcade players.

I know this angling issue comes up from time to time. I am trying to absorb as much as I can before I start any building. I appreciate all the advice that experienced members offer to people just starting out in the hobby.

Is my understanding correct that the U360s offer a software solution version of your proposed "rotatable" controls (obviously buttons stay where they are)? That is you could default all four joysticks facing north (up = orthogonal to screen) but in the software offer the option for P3 and P4 to angle inwards.

In the very specific case where you had built staggered joysticks on a 4p cp and those edge joysticks were at perfect 45 angle to P1 and P2 and you were interested in playing games with two joysticks per player, would it be easier to play with staggered hands but both pointing north or parallel hands but both pointing 45 degrees inwards? Thanks again for input.

[paigeoliver]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

A gamepad works at any angle not so much because you are moving relative you are moving relative to your body, but because your thumb is moving relative to its own natural position on your hand. Thus it is easily learned and pretty much works at any angle. On an arcade joystick the only natural reference point you have is the game screen. You have to trust your ability to follow that natural reference point more than the ability to use your body (which will almost never be at the exact same angle as the joystick) as a reference point. It has been tried time and time again and it doesn't work.

You aren't the special case in which angled sticks are going to work. Your project isn't the special case. There is no special situation to use angled sticks, not even if you personally have the ability to easily adapt to them. You aren't going to be the one playing on player 4, your friend Bob will and he is going to have trouble with it, or your little cousin Terry will and he won't be able to use it at all.

There is not a single merit to angled sticks. There is no real discussion to even be had about them. For 10 years the discussion of angled sticks has consisted of a small minority of the gamepad obsessed, trolls and some who already built angled sticks (and don't want to admit fault), trying to defend the idea while the other 90 percent try to help them. Again and again the people who are trying to help show pictures of dedicated 4-player panels and how they weren't angled. Over and over again some who built them angled chime in and admit it was a mistake. Yet over and over again people try to turn it into a discussion.

[yotsuya]

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters, I decided to try this out for myself. My natural inclination would be that yes, P3 and P4 should be angled to the screen in order for things to feel right. They have a few 4 player games there, and I checked - all the joysticks from the factory are installed straight up (no angling).

I put some credits in and I used the P3 controls (far left). I started off by playing straight-forward, directly in front of the machine. Obviously, I had no issues. I then, stepped to the side, playing as if I were the third player and someone were occupying the P1 area. Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

[Le Chuck]

...Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

That right there should come on a little slip of paper taped to every joystick sold.   

[HaRuMaN]

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters...

What?  And I wasn't invited?

[yotsuya]

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters...

What?  And I wasn't invited?

It was Family Fun Day for my daughter's school. Trust me, you'll be getting your fill of those soon enough! 

[vanrose72]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

[yotsuya]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

[Le Chuck]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

[Vigo]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

Well, it's not like you really are coming from a different direction on this issue.

[Le Chuck]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

Well, it's not like you really are coming from a different direction on this issue.

No reason to get up in arms about it...

[Vigo]

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I like your angle on this.

I don't cut corners when it comes to this stuff.

Yes, everyone should take your side

Well, it's not like you really are coming from a different direction on this issue.

No reason to get up in arms about it...

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so obtuse.

[javeryh]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

A gamepad works at any angle not so much because you are moving relative you are moving relative to your body, but because your thumb is moving relative to its own natural position on your hand. Thus it is easily learned and pretty much works at any angle. On an arcade joystick the only natural reference point you have is the game screen. You have to trust your ability to follow that natural reference point more than the ability to use your body (which will almost never be at the exact same angle as the joystick) as a reference point. It has been tried time and time again and it doesn't work.

You aren't the special case in which angled sticks are going to work. Your project isn't the special case. There is no special situation to use angled sticks, not even if you personally have the ability to easily adapt to them. You aren't going to be the one playing on player 4, your friend Bob will and he is going to have trouble with it, or your little cousin Terry will and he won't be able to use it at all.

There is not a single merit to angled sticks. There is no real discussion to even be had about them. For 10 years the discussion of angled sticks has consisted of a small minority of the gamepad obsessed, trolls and some who already built angled sticks (and don't want to admit fault), trying to defend the idea while the other 90 percent try to help them. Again and again the people who are trying to help show pictures of dedicated 4-player panels and how they weren't angled. Over and over again some who built them angled chime in and admit it was a mistake. Yet over and over again people try to turn it into a discussion.

This is very high up on the list of things people should be forced to read before joining this site.   

[Green Giant]

You guys are all just a bunch of crazy old people stuck to your old way of doing things.


Me and my buddy Fry know a thing or two about reinventing old technology.

[DaveMMR]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

A gamepad works at any angle not so much because you are moving relative you are moving relative to your body, but because your thumb is moving relative to its own natural position on your hand. Thus it is easily learned and pretty much works at any angle. On an arcade joystick the only natural reference point you have is the game screen. You have to trust your ability to follow that natural reference point more than the ability to use your body (which will almost never be at the exact same angle as the joystick) as a reference point. It has been tried time and time again and it doesn't work.

You aren't the special case in which angled sticks are going to work. Your project isn't the special case. There is no special situation to use angled sticks, not even if you personally have the ability to easily adapt to them. You aren't going to be the one playing on player 4, your friend Bob will and he is going to have trouble with it, or your little cousin Terry will and he won't be able to use it at all.

There is not a single merit to angled sticks. There is no real discussion to even be had about them. For 10 years the discussion of angled sticks has consisted of a small minority of the gamepad obsessed, trolls and some who already built angled sticks (and don't want to admit fault), trying to defend the idea while the other 90 percent try to help them. Again and again the people who are trying to help show pictures of dedicated 4-player panels and how they weren't angled. Over and over again some who built them angled chime in and admit it was a mistake. Yet over and over again people try to turn it into a discussion.

This is very high up on the list of things people should be forced to read before joining this site.   

Agreed. That basically sums this all up beautifully.

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters, I decided to try this out for myself. My natural inclination would be that yes, P3 and P4 should be angled to the screen in order for things to feel right. They have a few 4 player games there, and I checked - all the joysticks from the factory are installed straight up (no angling).

I put some credits in and I used the P3 controls (far left). I started off by playing straight-forward, directly in front of the machine. Obviously, I had no issues. I then, stepped to the side, playing as if I were the third player and someone were occupying the P1 area. Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

I think visiting an arcade should be one of the recommended steps when building your own cab and/or control panel. 

[yotsuya]

I think visiting an arcade should be one of the recommended steps when building your own cab and/or control panel. 

Amen. When I built my first cab, I went to Castles 'N Coasters and took pictures of my favorite cabs as well as took measurements.

[paigeoliver]

If people visited real arcades rather than following plans seemingly drawn up by people who have never seen a real arcade game then they would stop building this cabinet.



It is only a matter of time before someone in this hobby builds a cabinet that tips over on some kid and kills them. This isn't meant to be funny. It isn't a joke. It is deadly serious. I am actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.

I think visiting an arcade should be one of the recommended steps when building your own cab and/or control panel.  

Amen. When I built my first cab, I went to Castles 'N Coasters and took pictures of my favorite cabs as well as took measurements.

[yotsuya]

Four laughs, a select few of my photos from Castles 'N Coasters (note non-angled factory joysticks):

[DCsegaDH]

If people visited real arcades rather than following plans seemingly drawn up by people who have never seen a real arcade game then they would stop building this cabinet.



It is only a matter of time before someone in this hobby builds a cabinet that tips over on some kid and kills them. This isn't meant to be funny. It isn't a joke. It is deadly serious. I am actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.

I don't know about the Mame cabinets tipping over, aren't most Mame cabinets really heavy and stable. Mine is pretty stable and its a slim one, but mine is only a 2 player if that makes a difference.

I did actually looked at real arcade cabinets to get ideas on what to do right.

[Davros]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

Believe me, I hear the message. All joysticks should face north. Noted.

In my post I was trying to get at a slightly different (specific) issue. No one seems to think it is a terrible mistake to stagger joysticks as some of the arcade examples show. Say you had built a 4p cabinet with staggered joysticks.  Then on this cabinet realized you wanted to play Smash TV. Is it better to play both north with staggered hands OR for this game on this cab angle sticks and play with parallel facing sticks (but now angled) and does the software for U360 offer you the ability to do this? 

[DaveMMR]

It would be easier to play if you didn't angle anything. The part to absorb is that the sticks are not supposed to be angled. I am very sorry that so many people have made that mistake and sorrier still that some of them pretend it isn't one. Just don't do it. It isn't something that needs a solution or an option it is something that shouldn't be done.

Believe me, I hear the message. All joysticks should face north. Noted.

In my post I was trying to get at a slightly different (specific) issue. No one seems to think it is a terrible mistake to stagger joysticks as some of the arcade examples show. Say you had built a 4p cabinet with staggered joysticks.  Then on this cabinet realized you wanted to play Smash TV. Is it better to play both north with staggered hands OR for this game on this cab angle sticks and play with parallel facing sticks (but now angled) and does the software for U360 offer you the ability to do this? 

The staggering looks to be a way to physically separate the players from each other, but it's still kept straight to allow the player to stand almost anywhere and be able to control the character. (Though on the Open Ice picture above, it appears that only the buttons are staggered.) 

If wanting to play Smash TV and 4-player games are a concern, you can probably leave the actual sticks straight on the same horizontal line and stagger the P3 and P4 buttons instead.  Because if you angle the sticks (and remap with U360 software or in MAME for the 2-stick games like Smash TV), you are physically dictating where the player has to stand - and this is what leads to dangerously oversized panels to compensate for that very specific standing space.

As to Paige's point: I think oversized panels are ever more of a concern now with the advent of the skinny cabs, which has a lot less back weight to keep it standing up (and I've seen panels that must weigh more than the rest of the cab combined.)
 

[kahlid74]

I wound up deciding to redo the current machines CP for a different reason and I'll not angle the sticks this time.  For me, the angling has always been done because it's easy for me to take Lusid's button diagram and tilt it and be done.  Then again I'm super lazy and wind up having to do things multiple times because I always take fing shortcuts.

Not angling the joysticks seems like a foreign concept to me but alas I shall try it and see how it turns out.  I honestly just can't remember arcades enough to remember the orientation of the sticks.  I'd like to think that since I've been playing them since the 80's I would remember but I'm a dolt, so oh well.  I always was more into the run inside arcade, put coins in and play the bejeebus out of it.

Oh well, no time like the present to fix it right.

[Vigo]

Has anyone ever played a 3 player Real Ghostbusters by Dataeast? The game suspiciously looks like player 2 and 3 are angled. I can't find a manual on he dedicated machine to tell.

[Le Chuck]

Ripped this off a KLOV for sale page.  So far I can only find the conversion manual and you can't tell for sure from the pic but I'm betting it's the right way. 

[paigeoliver]

I checked the dedicated manual, it doesn't have any panel drawing, but I promise they aren't angled, Data East isn't stupid. Angled buttons doesn't mean angled sticks.

The dedicated Real Ghostbusters is kind of odd though because player 3 gets a right hand stick rather than a left hand one.

[DogFish]

from my own personal experience, this is the kind of situation that led me to draw out my preliminary plan for my arcade controller with angled stick's. and in that situation, it works fine, which led me to assume that it would work fine on a 4 player arcade control panel. alas, i have been slapped upside the back of the head and informed just how much of a bone-headed idea it is. but to continue, me thinks is just a situtuation of console gamer's imparting a bit of casual-gamer non-wisdom when exploring avenues outside the comfort of thier console of choice (as a pc gamer, i firmly believe that console gamers have destroyed my beloved FPS games, but thats a story for another board...)

anyway anyway anyway...
with the help of some very helpful member's of this board, i have come to the conclusion that at the very least, the controls should be aligned with the edge of the controller closest the person playing, as top serve as a reference point to the angle of the sticks. while a lot of people might think it is less than ideal having sticks angled at all, i think its acceptable if done with a physical, feelable reference point.

i've included a photo of my cardboard mock-up arcade control panel, as you can see in the pic all four sticks are angled (all four drawings of sticks, whatever...) i've since rectified the middle two sticks to the standard north towards monitor config, but i am keeping the two outer sticks and buttons as they are in the photo of the mock up. i figure the physical reference point of the edge of the control panel will serve fine as a way of instinctively knowing which way is which. if it doesn't work out, then the joke is on me and i've just wasted a $20 sheet of MDF and a $120 sheet of polycarbonate (lexan to all you americans )


anyway, thats some food for thought. i've enjoyed this thread quite a bit, cheers 

[paigeoliver]

No, it doesn't work. The edge of the control panel does not serve as a good reference point. If it did then angled sticks would work, since 90 percent of the panels that make the mistake of having angled sticks line them up with the panel edge.

 :banghead:They don't work. They don't work. They don't work. 

I bet I could make a lot of money selling the names of the people who read all about how angled sticks don't work and still want to try it anyway to multilevel marketing people!

[Howard_Casto]

Someone who decided upon 18 admin buttons (yes 18, I counted them!) should probably reconsider rebuking the peanut gallery's opinion.  Just mho. 

[DaveMMR]

from my own personal experience, this is the kind of situation that led me to draw out my preliminary plan for my arcade controller with angled stick's. and in that situation, it works fine, which led me to assume that it would work fine on a 4 player arcade control panel. alas, i have been slapped upside the back of the head and informed just how much of a bone-headed idea it is. but to continue, me thinks is just a situtuation of console gamer's imparting a bit of casual-gamer non-wisdom when exploring avenues outside the comfort of thier console of choice (as a pc gamer, i firmly believe that console gamers have destroyed my beloved FPS games, but thats a story for another board...)

anyway anyway anyway...
with the help of some very helpful member's of this board, i have come to the conclusion that at the very least, the controls should be aligned with the edge of the controller closest the person playing, as top serve as a reference point to the angle of the sticks. while a lot of people might think it is less than ideal having sticks angled at all, i think its acceptable if done with a physical, feelable reference point.

i've included a photo of my cardboard mock-up arcade control panel, as you can see in the pic all four sticks are angled (all four drawings of sticks, whatever...) i've since rectified the middle two sticks to the standard north towards monitor config, but i am keeping the two outer sticks and buttons as they are in the photo of the mock up. i figure the physical reference point of the edge of the control panel will serve fine as a way of instinctively knowing which way is which. if it doesn't work out, then the joke is on me and i've just wasted a $20 sheet of MDF and a $120 sheet of polycarbonate (lexan to all you americans )


anyway, thats some food for thought. i've enjoyed this thread quite a bit, cheers 

While I think angling in relation to the front of the panel is slightly better than random angles, it's also time spent needlessly. When you install them straight, you don't have to cut a bunch of edges, etc. And contrary to popular belief, you are not spacing out people optimally since players are REQUIRED to stand in a very specific spot. When sticks are straight they can stand pretty much anywhere.

If you still want the angles go for it, but I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented in this particular case.

[Le Chuck]

Dogfish, why is it better that I would need to look at the CP to know which way is up?  What makes the top edge of the panel less of a candidate for orientation than the bottom?  Do you play staring at your hands?  I am sure that in a few months your panel will be complete and you'll come back on and declare victory over all who told you to orient your sticks correctly and I wish you well but this isn't a case of opinion.  There is a correct way to do this and an incorrect way.  Preference over one way or another does not change the correctness.

I present the Q-Bert Theory

If sticks aren't designed to have a fixed orientation as related to the screen then why does Q-Bert have a purposefully angled stick and why is it so hard to get a decent score when playing on an incorrectly angled stick?  Ergo if Q-Bert is designed to play with the joystick angled to a certain degree then all other games are designed to play with the joystick angled to a certain degree.  Corollary:  If the game has an up direction that equals moving parallel to the edges of the screen from bottom to top then the controller is meant to be oriented to produce a physical manifestation of that onscreen movement, just as Q-Bert's joystick is oriented to mirror onscreen movement.    

[paigeoliver]

You know in the past I have actually TRIED to stand at an angle to do better at Q*Bert on a normal stick and it doesn't help one bit.

Dogfish obviously knows more about this than two generations of experts at Atari, Sega, Midway and Konami. It is too bad the industry is dead, otherwise he could have really showed them a thing or two about the right way to set up their 4 player machines.

Why do you think this is something that you can somehow beat. What exactly is the situation that you are trying to fix with those angled sticks? The gamepad obsessed gremlin in the back of your head that thinks it is smarter than all the engineering teams that put together every 4 player game ever made.

I do actually recall seeing a very early (mid 70s) 4 player Snake type game at an auction that angled the joysticks, but for the life of me I can't remember which game it was. I was almost certain it was a Midway Checkmate but I owned one of those some years later and the sticks weren't angled. Perhaps it was an early run machine and they fixed the problem afterwards. Those 4 player snake games were pretty much the first 4 player joystick games out there and even then they quickly figured out they shouldn't angle the sticks.

[Vigo]

Well, one thing I will say in defense of "the industry" arguement is that Konami, Midway, Atari and Sega never had to deal with throwing 4 players with 20+ buttons between them, a trackball, spinner and God knows what else on to just one panel.

My point only really covers player 3/4 angling, not really a defense for P1/P2 angling, and you can make an easy argument that that much shouldn't be that much on one panel to begin with. But considering that an authentic arcade machines never used to dare taking up more than a few extra inches on each side of the cabinet, there isn't a whole lot of "industry standard" to cover some of the angling law on the frankenpanels.

[BadMouth]

I don't get the "standing too close" arguement.

Which direction you push the joystick to move up has no bearing on how close you stand to another player.
A Gauntlet Legends CP has player #4 standing all the way on the side of the CP, but they still press the joystick toward the monitor to move up.
If they pressed the joystick forward in relation to themselves instead, they'd still be standing in the same friggin' place.

The appearance arguement makes no sense either, as you can't even tell which way a joystick is positioned unless it's indicated by the CP art or the bolts are showing.

The "feels right to me" arguement holds solid. (even if it feels wrong to me    )
The important thing is that you know ahead of time how most arcade CPs were done and why.
If you like angled better, it's your cab, build exactly what you want.

[Green Giant]

Calm down guys.  I have solved dogfish's problem as well as the angling dilemma completely.

With my simple modification, angled sticks can work perfectly.


I presume industry execs avoided this as the added cost in materials would be bad.

[Vigo]

A Gauntlet Legends CP has player #4 standing all the way on the side of the CP, but they still press the joystick toward the monitor to move up.
If they pressed the joystick forward in relation to themselves instead, they'd still be standing in the same friggin' place.

I don't think other players have much of an effect as well, but I guess I like to sit and play devil's advocate here.  I would not rank Gauntlet Legends (non-pedestal) upright as a shining example of a well designed 4 player CP. You simply did not wan't to be player 4 on that machine. More than 10 minutes in and you would get a kink in your neck from playing with your head cranked to the side. Your wrist would get sore as you would try to correct your body position. Gauntlet 1 and 2 are not as big of a deal because there in essence is only one button you have to worry about. Potions were used few and far between.

I also have to point out that my Trog 4 player has the almost the same layout as a Gauntlet, when I bring in someone to play at player 4, they constantly get mixed up as to which direction is up. Sometimes they go from the angle they were standing, sometimes they go 90 degrees if they stood perfectly to the side. I believe since Gauntlet had the Atari Joysticks with the label to show which direction is up, as well as the tick marks on the CP art, it gives guidance to the players playing from a funky angle. Trog had Wicos and no art to designate up. It leads me to believe that towards the screen is not always the natural up for people who don't have that notion ingrained in their mind already.

In the end, that leads me to come at the same conclusion as you. For the people that want to angle, more power to you. It might, however, feel weird to me.

[paigeoliver]

That would almost fix it. Now all we need to do is to add additional monitors on the sides for players that match the angles of the sticks.

Of course all this brings up the much more important reality that you aren't going to be playing more than a handful of fully populated 4 player games over the life of your machine unless you have 3 or 4 children (and do you really want to burden your least dominant children with cruddy angled sticks when they can barely see the screen).

4 player machines rarely saw much 4 player action out in the wild after they were a few months old and when they did it was mostly kids playing not adults.

I once owned a 4 player TMNT cabinet and had several 4 player boards that could go in it and when I had people over they would wait to play on it two at a time rather than all squish in at once.

Really, do YOU want to squish up against 3 sweaty adult nerds just to play the Simpsons? I sure don't.

Last time I played a fully populated 4 player upright was like 6 years ago and it was a Pong clone and the game lasted about 90 seconds.

Calm down guys.  I have solved dogfish's problem as well as the angling dilemma completely.

With my simple modification, angled sticks can work perfectly.


I presume industry execs avoided this as the added cost in materials would be bad.

[paigeoliver]

Also with the pure size of that 18 Admin buttons "Magic Moments" control panel you might as well  just line the players all up in a row like a 4 player showcase cabinet. It looks to be about 50"-54" wide, which is around 6" wider than two normal 2 player control panels combined.

[Nephasth]

Now all we need to do is to add additional monitors on the sides for players that match the angles of the sticks.

Check.

[Vigo]

Of course all this brings up the much more important reality that you aren't going to be playing more than a handful of fully populated 4 player games over the life of your machine unless you have 3 or 4 children (and do you really want to burden your least dominant children with cruddy angled sticks when they can barely see the screen).

4 player machines rarely saw much 4 player action out in the wild after they were a few months old and when they did it was mostly kids playing not adults.

That's the thing, I personally think I like 4 player games than most, but I came to the realization that that I don't play them with all four players that often. It is one of those pieces of nostaligia that is hard to shake.

[Vater]

I'm one that rarely plays 4-player games, so a 2-player panel suits me fine.

Regarding the Q-Bert discussion, I learned to play Q-Bert on my Atari 400 (only played a handful of times in the arcade and sucked because I was just a young kid with a limited number of quarters), and for some reason didn't position the fully-mobile Atari joystick at a 45° angle (with the button facing north) as the manual recommended.  So I got used to the directional controls being funky: up=NE, right=SE, down=SW, left=NW.  Consequently, I rock at Q-Bert on my current cabinet, which uses an X-Arcade tankstick.

But not to worry, when my custom panel is built I will likely have a U360 configured with the proper angles for Q-Bert.

[DogFish]

haha i didn't realise i'd kick up such a stink haha, but anyway, just to clarify,
the player 1 and 2 (middle two) controls will be in line with the television, no angling, but the outer controls (p1 & 4) will be committing the most heinous crime of being angled to be in line with the front ledge (the ledge closest you) rather than with the monitor.

i've made it in such a way so that will should not ever have to look at the controller to know which direction is which, because you will be able to feel the edge against your palm/wrist.
while i'm not saying it will work, i'd still like to try it. i've never seen a four player control panel i like they are either clustered together haphazardly, or the outer two controls are dead straight with the other two and you's have to either sit on a different angle to the controls your using, or have to keep your head turned left 45 degree's the whole time you play, which i could imagine not being fun.

maybe it will be horrible, but even if it is i'm going to find out first hand and the joke is on me, no-one else. no need to get all bent out of shape on it ^_^

as far as i could find, no-one has made a 4-player control panel with the outer two controls in-line with front of the control panel. if anyone has used one with that setup, or even seen one with that setup, i'd like to see it. if they regret doing it and it was a horrible decision, i'll happily eat my words.

 

[paigeoliver]

as far as i could find, no-one has made a 4-player control panel with the outer two controls in-line with front of the control panel. if anyone has used one with that setup, or even seen one with that setup, i'd like to see it. if they regret doing it and it was a horrible decision, i'll happily eat my words.

 

What do you mean by in line with the front of the panel. Do you mean with the joysticks all facing the same way, in that case they all did that. Gauntlet, Simpsons, Ninja Turtles, Quartet, X-Men, etc, etc, etc.

If you meant with all 4 player stations more or less firmly in front of the panel, thenscroll back further in this very thread so see that Gauntlet Legacy showcase style panel.

I have been involved on and off with the mame cabinet community for 11 years. Never once have I heard anyone say they regretted not angling their side sticks in. I have however seen dozens and dozens of people who were smarter than the sticks were and just had to angle their sticks. The best you ever here from them is "Its OK", and usually that is a lie.

The only reason you don't hear people being even more vocal about the mistakes of angling the sticks is that those 3rd and 4th player stations just end up sitting their unused anyway, so the problem doesn't crop up very much.

[HaRuMaN]

My player 3 & 4 sticks are not angled.

One of the main reasons: Robotron!  Robotron gets played with the player 3 & player 1 sticks...  imagine if one were angled, and the other one wasn't? 

[Vigo]

If he is referring to just that specific octogon 4 player control panels style, he might have a point. I don't know.

Although on my first rig, it was octagonal with the controls all facing up relative to the screen, however I never took any photos or documented it or anything. I also had a test panel with P3 and P4 angled but didn't quite like it. It just felt wrong to me. (Although as I mentioned in an earlier post, I have tried an angled rig that was not bad, which is the reason why I am not totally anti-angling. I still have a mindset that straight joysticks are always the best bet.)

My player 3 & 4 sticks are not angled.

One of the main reasons: Robotron!  Robotron gets played with the player 3 & player 1 sticks...  imagine if one were angled, and the other one wasn't? 

I always set my Robotron controls on player 1 and 2 to be centered on the screen. I would think that anyone with angled controls could do that if they at least lined up player 1 and 2. However, if anyone wants to partake in some 2 player smash TV with the correct controls, then straight joysticks are an absolute must.

[DogFish]

paigeoliver, you seem to have a rather poor grasp of understanding very basic english, so i have drawn up a diagram JUST FOR YOU to explain exactly how i am orienting the sticks and what it is i am trying to avoid, and, what i have never seen an example of.

i will explain this very simply, and very clearly, as if i were explaining it to a child. i will be VERY surprised if you manage to misinterpret it.

there are EIGHT lines i have drawn over this picture,
FOUR over each set of controls.
FOUR over the corresponding edge.

you will notice that the four lines over the controls run parallel with the four lines over the front edge of the control panel.
you will notice that despite the felt marker drawings on the middle two controls, the line for said two controls runs in line with the ledge in front of it. very simple stuff.
will will also notice that the outside 2 controls run parallel with the front the arcade controller, as i have marked with the two lines on each side.

now, if you can show me a controller with the same parallel with the front edge on player 3 and 4 setup, and the owner/maker/player of these controls can attest to it being awkward, i will bake you a damn cake and post it to you.

if you can not, kindly keep your nasty self-righteous comments to your self.

honest opinions are WELCOME and i thank everyone that has helped on my arcade-building journey.
ego-boosting nay-saying is totally un-called for and isn't going to help anyone at all.

[paigeoliver]

Sure thing here are a few. I just googled 4 player control panel and these were all on the first page, the vast majority of homemade 4 player panels line the buttons up like you do. I really don't mean to be nasty, but you don't have a new idea, you have an idea that has been well tested and doesn't work well. Lining the buttons up with the edge of the panel is actually a pretty good thing to do (original games normally didn't have the space for that luxury), but rotating the stick around to line up with the buttons, not so much.

I don't want a cake. I am not a child. I have built dozens of mame cabinets. I have owned around 200 original machines. I have a little experience with what we are talking about.

You never see an experience builder angling their sticks. It is always someone on their first project with 15 posts and a control panel layout who long ago got the idea that you were supposed to angle their side sticks because they read it on crapmame and now they can't let it go.

My first project was awful. It was a Capcom bowling cabinet with a 14" monitor in it and I had rigged the original trackball to roll the encoder wheels on one of those Compusa crystal trackball, and the two buttons were rigged up through that and everything else had to be done through the keyboard. Later I tried to build a big jumbo panel on a Defender cabinet (complete with dual gamepad hacks that required me to plug the second one in after I booted to keep them from swapping positions, the sticks may have even been angled, can't remember). I personally made the majority of the mistakes that one can make in this hobby, and my projects didn't start coming together right until I started doing what the more pro builders were doing.

But hey, you win. Your layout solves the problem perfectly. It will never be awkward or troublesome for anyone. You should build it.

[DogFish]

nicely done ^_^

you were doing so well til you said

"But hey, you win. Your layout solves the problem perfectly. It will never be awkward or troublesome for anyone. You should build it."

apparently, 10+ years in the industry has not taught you common human decency.

also, i take it you don't see how a straight layout or an octagon layout with northward sticks is troublesome?

[kahlid74]

paigeoliver, you seem to have a rather poor grasp of understanding very basic english, so i have drawn up a diagram JUST FOR YOU to explain exactly how i am orienting the sticks and what it is i am trying to avoid, and, what i have never seen an example of.

i will explain this very simply, and very clearly, as if i were explaining it to a child. i will be VERY surprised if you manage to misinterpret it.

there are EIGHT lines i have drawn over this picture,
FOUR over each set of controls.
FOUR over the corresponding edge.

you will notice that the four lines over the controls run parallel with the four lines over the front edge of the control panel.
you will notice that despite the felt marker drawings on the middle two controls, the line for said two controls runs in line with the ledge in front of it. very simple stuff.
will will also notice that the outside 2 controls run parallel with the front the arcade controller, as i have marked with the two lines on each side.

now, if you can show me a controller with the same parallel with the front edge on player 3 and 4 setup, and the owner/maker/player of these controls can attest to it being awkward, i will bake you a damn cake and post it to you.

if you can not, kindly keep your nasty self-righteous comments to your self.

honest opinions are WELCOME and i thank everyone that has helped on my arcade-building journey.
ego-boosting nay-saying is totally un-called for and isn't going to help anyone at all.

Take it from someone who has angled them exactly how you did, it doesn't work long term.  I did the same thing with lining the joysticks based on the angled side of the CP closest to the player and what I found was that player 3-4 not only felt awkward to start but required a learning curve with each game and felt significantly awkward after 15 minutes of play.  This was even with stickers on the CP showing what direction was up/down/left/right.  

We all have a right to build cabinets however we want, and I'm a huge proponent of supporting every individuals uniqueness, but what the majority of people in this thread are telling you is that if you build it angled, there's a high chance that long term you won't be happy with what you've done.  Don't take it personally, because that's what I did and I acted like it was my choice and I was the right one. Then I actually played player 3 for a prolonged period of time and discovered how I had been misguided all along.  Then it made even more sense why at a lot of house parties we held people didn't play player 3/4 after about an hour of use where player 1-2 were played into the wee hours of the morning.

[kahlid74]

Let me add also that I left the layout as is, with the players positioned just like you did but I aimed the joystick towards the screen like player 1/2.  That way player 3/4 were still physically separated from 1/2.  At first I thought it would be awkward as a wrist motion but it's not, it works.  Whole heartily it works.

Angle the buttons, but not the joystick.

[DogFish]

why thank you, khalid. its nice to have an honest respectful opinion from someone who has had first-hand expirience with player 3/4 sticks lined up with the panel instead of the TV. thats think kind of thing that will make me seriously reconsider my design, rather than getting annoyed at spiteful nay-sayers.

once again, thank you. your voice of sanity and reason is very welcome.

....any suggestions as to what would be the best alternative?

[Peja]

Kahlid,

I noticed you said P3 and P4 were barely played while 1 and 2 were into the wee hours of the morning.  Is this because of just hardly any 4 player games to play or because the controls were angled wrong? 

I'm in the process of cutting my CP this weekend and have yet to decide on all 4 players with trackball or just 2 players with trackball.  I have all the controls for 4 players, just not sure if it will be too cramped and not used.  However, I do want to play Dreamcast on my machine so I am leaning towards 4 players.

Thanks,

[DogFish]

haha, you answered my question before i even asked it!

you are truely fantastic, Mr. Khalid.

[paigeoliver]

I apologize. Sometimes I feel like I am just beating my head against a wall with some of this stuff. It can get frustrating.

I have never played on an exact precise clone of the control panel layout you have come up with. I have played on maybe a half dozen machines that had angled sticks (several pretty similar to your layout but not exact). There was always some level of strangeness to it that ranged from mildly weird to totally unplayable. The larger the angle and the closer you were to the screen the worse it got. I have played on countless machines that didn't angle the sticks and the only thing that was ever weird about it was the less than ideal screen viewing angle that most 4 player machines gave the 3rd and 4th players.

The alignment of the buttons in relation to the alignment of the stick isn't a real issue. If you look at enough original machines you can see that they swung those all over the place on multiplayer machines. The reason it isn't an issue is because your joystick hand isn't doing the same thing as your button hands, at all. It is up in the air holding a stick controlling the action that happens on the monitor and that is why aligning the stick with the monitor works most naturally. That is why when you drive your car you can operate it just fine with your steering wheel at one level and your shifter down much lower. However if you tried to ergonomically angle that shifter gate pattern to fit the angle of your arm you would find it would be harder to control.

It might also help if you could imagine piloting a plane with that stick, and the monitor is the front window of the plane. The plane will always be easiest to fly if the controls face the same was as the window, even if you approach the stick from an angle.

nicely done ^_^

you were doing so well til you said

"But hey, you win. Your layout solves the problem perfectly. It will never be awkward or troublesome for anyone. You should build it."

apparently, 10+ years in the industry has not taught you common human decency.

also, i take it you don't see how a straight layout or an octagon layout with northward sticks is troublesome?

[Vigo]

You can consider just not putting major angles into your CP design at all. Here is the one that Haruman just acquired from Timeo.



I think this looks like a fine 4p panel.

[paigeoliver]

Peja. When I owned my 4 player TMNT cabinet people usually just waited to play it two at a time rather than all cramming in, however I also had multiple machines to choose from. Building a second (vertical) cabinet if you have room for it might be the better choice.

How old you and your friends are plays a big part too, once you get past your early 20s your machine isn't really going to see much 4 player action until you are much older and then it will be the kids, not the adults. You might get all your buddies over to go through TMNT once, maybe even twice, but the novelty will wear off quickly.

Kahlid,

I noticed you said P3 and P4 were barely played while 1 and 2 were into the wee hours of the morning.  Is this because of just hardly any 4 player games to play or because the controls were angled wrong?  

I'm in the process of cutting my CP this weekend and have yet to decide on all 4 players with trackball or just 2 players with trackball.  I have all the controls for 4 players, just not sure if it will be too cramped and not used.  However, I do want to play Dreamcast on my machine so I am leaning towards 4 players.

Thanks,

[kahlid74]

Kahlid,

I noticed you said P3 and P4 were barely played while 1 and 2 were into the wee hours of the morning.  Is this because of just hardly any 4 player games to play or because the controls were angled wrong? 

I'm in the process of cutting my CP this weekend and have yet to decide on all 4 players with trackball or just 2 players with trackball.  I have all the controls for 4 players, just not sure if it will be too cramped and not used.  However, I do want to play Dreamcast on my machine so I am leaning towards 4 players.

Thanks,

Honestly, I'm super happy I built it four player.  There's still plenty of cases where all four players were being used and we had parties of 30-50 people just about every weekend for a year straight there.  I think the majority of people were there to drink/hang out/hook up so after the initial hour the novelty wore off and only the hardcore arcadists were still rocking it (1 and 2 player).  I can however tell you we had numerous instances where my close group of friends would rock all the way through four players of Sunset riders or captain American and the avengers or X-Men, so I'm very happy I built it four players.  So IMO you can't go wrong with a four player unless you want to build something specific instead of a full size cab.

From a design perspective I'm super happy I angled the positions of player 3/4 to the side on the CP.  The spacing physically is just enough where people can stand somewhat comfortably and the viewing perspective is still workable.  I've only every built cabs with 27" screens or larger (TV {CRT and LCD}) so I've lucked out in the skewed viewing angle by angling the CP.  I'm building another CP right now and I plan to have it drilled by this weekend.  I'll upload photos for you guys so you can see how it looks and whether you like the look/feel of it.

[Peja]

Thanks for the replies paige and kahlid.  My setup is a Dynamo showcase with the 39" monitor so I think I will still plan on going 4 players.  I may however extend the length of the pedestal a little bit more so 3 and 4 players have a little bit more of a straight viewing area. 

I have also thought about having a dedicated 2 player setup eventually as paigeoliver has suggested.  Can't go wrong with a 4 player and 2 player dedicated cabs I suppose.

I am interested in seeing your pictures kahlid, or even pictures of your 4 player panel.

Thanks.

[paigeoliver]

Oh heck yes. I am not the biggest fan of four player, but with a 39' Dynamo showcase I would go four player as well.

[Green Giant]

why thank you, khalid. its nice to have an honest respectful opinion from someone who has had first-hand expirience with player 3/4 sticks lined up with the panel instead of the TV. thats think kind of thing that will make me seriously reconsider my design, rather than getting annoyed at spiteful nay-sayers.

once again, thank you. your voice of sanity and reason is very welcome.

....any suggestions as to what would be the best alternative?

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

[DogFish]

is it lonely down there under your bridge?

[Vigo]

  Well played.

[CheffoJeffo]

Man have I missed hearing the same damned arguments with the same damned results! 

About the only new piece of info was an actual picture of a factory machine with angled sticks.

[kahlid74]

Thanks for the replies paige and kahlid.  My setup is a Dynamo showcase with the 39" monitor so I think I will still plan on going 4 players.  I may however extend the length of the pedestal a little bit more so 3 and 4 players have a little bit more of a straight viewing area. 

I have also thought about having a dedicated 2 player setup eventually as paigeoliver has suggested.  Can't go wrong with a 4 player and 2 player dedicated cabs I suppose.

I am interested in seeing your pictures kahlid, or even pictures of your 4 player panel.

Thanks.

My next cab is a Dynamo/Showcase with a 42" inch rotating TV.  So I'm in the same place you are!   I'm going to have to change the Dynamo design because I need to push your standing back.  It's a pet project so I hope it still resembles an arcade machine somewhat LOL.  It's probably just going to be a monstrosity but man if it works that would be cool.

I'll post pictures of the system so you can see.

[HaRuMaN]

a 42" inch rotating TV

I hope you mean LCD?

[paigeoliver]

It would have to be LCD or plasma. The largest commonly available traditional TV sets capped out at 36", although the very high end did produce some larger ones than that during that brief period of time where you could buy a widescreen set with a picture tube.

a 42" inch rotating TV

I hope you mean LCD?

[kahlid74]

42 inch LED tv I got from BB for 200 bucks.  Works just fine and being LED is super light, so my lbs*in torque is less than what it would be if it's an LCD or Plasma.

[Peja]

Kahlid,

Originally I had a LED tv I was going to use in the dynamo but decided to recap the arcade monitor and go the arcadevga/jpac route.  I will just hang the led tv on the wall in the game room now which saves me from having to go buy one.  I was going to extend the width of the top and bottom parts of the dynamo monitor section to fit the tv....kind of like mamerooms design:  http://mameroom.com/Products_LCDShowcase_System.asp  Maybe you can get your hole LED Box frame to rotate along with it??


As for the pedestal part, I am toying around with the idea of adding a 10 inch box section in between where the pedestal can disconnect from the base of the monitor section.  You may need to go a little bit further than 10 inches with the 42"   Perhaps, since it will most likely be against the wall, you could cut off the back section of the monitor base stand to get it even closer to the wall.

Then again, this might not make sense to anyone.......I just got back from lunch and took a nap at home instead of eating so I am still trying to wake up.

Peja

[Vigo]

It would have to be LCD or plasma. The largest commonly available traditional TV sets capped out at 36", although the very high end did produce some larger ones than that during that brief period of time where you could buy a widescreen set with a picture tube.

a 42" inch rotating TV

I hope you mean LCD?

I have a 40 inch crt tv from the 90's. I don't think they made larger than that. It weighs in at probably 250 lbs...at least playing tecmo super bowl kicks ass on it 

[HaRuMaN]

Like this?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/vgm/2822497044.html

[paigeoliver]

Can you imagine decasing that and putting it into a standing cocktail! That would be awesome.

Like this?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/vgm/2822497044.html

[Vigo]

I think that is the exact TV I have. I bought it at auction 5 years ago for that price as well. I love how the guy pretty much made the same comment about retro video games as I did. 

[DogFish]

oh, mitsubishi. too lovely, they make some of the best looking CRT's IMHO.