Anyone Else Jazzed About the New Avengers Movie?

[Howard_Casto]

I hate to burst you bubble, but there are characters infinately more powerful than superman in the JL.

That doesn't really burst my bubble. That doesn't even really address the issue of Superman's lameness.

What are you basing his "lameness" on? Movies? Comics? Cartoons? His abilities? What?

I dont know a ton about DC, but I wouldnt really say there are that many people/entities infinitely more powerful than Superman.

EVERYTHING Superman does is dangerous. What if he was sleepwalking and wrecked an entire city block? What if he sneezes and blows a building down? What if he eats a burrito and a bottle of mountain dew and has explosive diarrhea? Superman is the one shining beacon of hope. He doesnt wear a mask, he doesnt rule by fear. You know damn well, when Superman comes to save the day, he does just that. He is the ULTIMATE hero. How much humor does Batman have? Captain America? Wolverine? Any of the X-men aside from maybe Beast?

Spiderman cant be shot, stabbed, or hit by a car. Have you ever seen that in a comic? No he couldnt roll an ankle. He has super powers. Now if you said Batman, I would let you have that. Ill give you that, Spiderman has more of a personality than Superman. But Spiderman isnt nearly on the scale of Superman, by powers, age, scope or anything.

I just dont see how you can say Superman is boring.

I would suggest you look at virtually any hero then.  The Martian ManHunter, just for example, has all of superman's abilities AND the ability to shape-shift and become intangible.  Not only that, but he isn't weakened by cryptonite.  Captain marvel has supes powers as well and again... no weakness to the green rock.  Amazo is eons more powerful than any of those guys and that's just a few off the top of my head. 

On the marvel side even characters like Rogue have all of supes powers AND the ability to drain powers from others!  As a matter of fact, superman's powers are the generic set of powers they give to virtually every superhero.

Actually, superman IS boring and he IS lame.  At least he isn't without VERY CAREFUL treatment.  He isn't the ultimate superhero, he's simply the first.   None of the things you mentioned pose any danger to Superman, only those around him.  Superman doesn't wear a mask because of poor writing.  They expect the glasses to be a good enough disguise.  Batman, the cap, wolverine, and the rest of the x-men all have tons of personality.  Superman is very one-dimensional.  Your right, spiderman isn't on the same level as superman.... because spiderman has depth and a relatable quality to his character while superman doesn't. 


Btw Superman is NOT a hero.  The fact that he's seldom any any real danger means that he isn't risking anything and therefore isn't doing anything heroic.  Now Superman is a nice guy... he could just sit on his butt and do nothing to help the little ants around him or he could be their overlord.  So Superman isn't a dick, but he isn't a hero either. 

Batman is a hero.... batman is in mortal danger from even the lowliest of crooks.  Batman has no reason to go out on patrol every night in defense of the city, but he does anyway, that makes him a hero. 

Basically the more super powers you have, the less heroic your do-gooding is. 

[shmokes]

It's the difference between Indiana Jones and Laura Croft (the Angelina Jolie version). Indiana Jones is a hero, and it means something because he is always in way over his head risking his life and nearly getting himself killed saving people and acheiving whatever other objectives he's after. Laura Crof, on the other hand cartwheels through rooms full of spraying bullets without the slightest care, absurdly taking out all the evildoers like whacking moles at the arcade. Her foes pose no actual danger to her, so the fact that she defeats them is meaningless.

It's the difference between David beating Goliath and David beating his kids. One story is just more impressive and interesting than the other.

Perhaps taking the overabundance of powers to the extreme will help illustrate where my bordom is coming from. Imagine if someone wrote a comic book about god. I mean the literal Christian god. And god just sits in his armchair and when some lady is getting mugged in an alleyway, god makes her suddenly not getting mugged simply by thinking about it. And let's say a volcano erupts and the lava is about to destroy a village. So god, without even standing up just makes the lava not hit the village, just by willing it. Does that sound like a fun comic book? Does that sound like an engaging plot?

Superman's powers make's the things he does unimpressive. And his black&white lack of moral questioning makes his personality uninteresting.

[ark_ader]

Batman is a hero.... batman is in mortal danger from even the lowliest of crooks.  Batman has no reason to go out on patrol every night in defense of the city, but he does anyway, that makes him a hero. 

I'm not too sure about that Howard.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/arts/comic-books/batman-sociopath.htm

[Rando]

Btw Superman is NOT a hero.  The fact that he's seldom any any real danger means that he isn't risking anything and therefore isn't doing anything heroic.  Now Superman is a nice guy... he could just sit on his butt and do nothing to help the little ants around him or he could be their overlord.  So Superman isn't a dick, but he isn't a hero either. 

Um, what?

Sooo…  The only criteria for being a "Hero" is that you have to be in some sort of peril yourself?  So... that time when a mother wasn't paying attention to her toddler and he fell in the pool and was sitting on the bottom and I jumped in, to water that I could safely stand in, and pulled him out, I wasn't a Hero to that kid or family?  Is a cop who stops a crime but is wearing a vest less of a hero than if he hadn't been?  How about the kid in school who sees a gun in another kid’s locker and reports it to the principal?

This is a silly conversation, but Superman puts himself out there.  He may not be risking his actual safety (or he may be, he can't know for sure all the time), but his actions and decisions do put those around him at risk.  He also doesn't seek praise, riches, power, he sacrifices a regular life and the relationships that humanity as a whole pursues.  He could be above all this, he doesn't HAVE to help.  The fact that he does, and cares, and does so time and time again... That's pretty heroic, if you ask me.

Astro City illustrated this pretty well with Samaritan I believe, where he tried to fit in as much good/saving/heroic duties as he possibly could.  He couldn’t do everything, but he could do a lot.  He tried to take a break at one point to go on a date with another hero I think, but of course that time meant others were in danger and he couldn’t pursue it.  Giving up a normal life to help others with little benefit to yourself, that’s heroic.

To use your Spiderman reference btw, Spiderman would have nothing to fear from a thug/rapist, but to that comic book staple of a lone woman in the alley that he saves, I’m pretty sure she’d call him a Hero and probably thank him every day if she could.

[shmokes]

It's not the only criterion, but it's an important one. Why do you think firemen are so revered? Do you think they'd garner the same respect and mythos if they just sat behind a control panel and pressed buttons that activated ejc mechanisms installed in every building? What makes them true heros, what makes them admired and interesting is nOt just that they save lives . . . hell modern sewage systems have saved literally millions more lives than firemen . . . it's that they risk their own lives to protect others.

Do you think the guy behind the desk operating the unmanned drone gets the same respect as the guy on the front line risking his life every day? And which of them has a story worth telling. Which has a story that'll put you on the edge of your seat.

Superman is a hero by definition. But as a literary character, he sucks.

[Well Fed Games]

Perhaps taking the overabundance of powers to the extreme will help illustrate where my bordom is coming from. Imagine if someone wrote a comic book about god. I mean the literal Christian god. And god just sits in his armchair and when some lady is getting mugged in an alleyway, god makes her suddenly not getting mugged simply by thinking about it. And let's say a volcano erupts and the lava is about to destroy a village. So god, without even standing up just makes the lava not hit the village, just by willing it. Does that sound like a fun comic book? Does that sound like an engaging plot?

 

What makes them true heros, what makes them admired and interesting is nOt just that they save lives . . .  . . . it's that they risk their own lives to protect others.

That's a pretty good argument for Jesus Christ.  Sorry, you went with religion first, couldn't resist...  no offense intended.

[Rando]

Do you think the guy behind the desk operating the unmanned drone gets the same respect as the guy on the front line risking his life every day?

To the guy on the ground at the front line getting intel about where the enemy is and when to keep his head down, yeah, that drone driver is a hero.  So is the guy flying the chopper coming to pull him and his injured buddies out of harms way before it's too late.

And which of them has a story worth telling. Which has a story that'll put you on the edge of your seat.

Superman is a hero by definition. But as a literary character, he sucks.

I'm not arguing who has a better story, or who is a "better" hero, just that Superman is, regardless of definition in my opinion, a Hero.  Yes he's a Boy Scout who can be boring, but Boy Scouts do plenty of good deeds, even when they don't have to and are "off duty".

[Le Chuck]

Do you think the guy behind the desk operating the unmanned drone gets the same respect as the guy on the front line risking his life every day?

To the guy on the ground at the front line getting intel about where the enemy is and when to keep his head down, yeah, that drone driver is a hero.  So is the guy flying the chopper coming to pull him and his injured buddies out of harms way before it's too late.

---fudgesicle--- yeah.   

[shmokes]

But . . . Jesus . . . Superman is a STORY. He's not real. His only value is in how interesting he is. He doesn't literally save lives. He saves fictional lives in stories that are supposed to be entertaining. So maybe you're not arguing "who has a better story", but if not you're wasting your breath because that's all there is to argue about. because that's all superman and any other comic book is. A story.

Anyway, even to play your game, you're being dishonest if you claim to give no extra credit to the person willing to risk his own life to save others, versus the person who does it in perfect safety. To pretend that risking one's life for others has no independent value on top of the fact of saving lives is not only silly, but it's a lie, since I know that you don't actually feel that way. It's just something to say for the sake of argument.

[Le Chuck]

I took the quote to be that the UAV operator can be a hero to the ground pounder which is true.  I don't think there is much value in weighing the two against eachother.  Most door kickers when asked who the bigger hero was would probably invite you to do something pleasant to yourself. 

As for day to day respect I've found that the infantry man gets less than he deserves.  At least when a UAV operator tells a civilian what he does there is a respect for the technical aspect of his mission.  There is a huge unfortunate stigma towards grunts. 

That is off topic however.  For on topic I am totally bummed that Ed Norton didn't sign on or wasn't invited to Hulk out in the coming film, especially when Stark made a cameo at the end teaser of the most recent hulk film tieing the two casts together.  I'd even take Bana again, that would have been a humerous bit of casting but I still want to see how the hulk is handled in this treatment. 

[Vigo]

Zero?
Yeah, Zero is a wonderful thing.
In fact, Zero is my hero!

How can Zero be a hero?

Well, there are all kinds of heroes, you know.
A man can get to be a hero
For a famous battle he fought...
Or by studying very hard
And becoming a weightless astronaut.

And then there are heroes of other sorts,
Like the heroes we know from watching sports.
But a hero doesn't have to be a grown up person, you know,
A hero can be a very big dog
Who comes to your rescue,
Or a very little boy who's smart enough to know what to do.

But let me tell you about my favorite hero.

My hero, Zero, such a funny little hero,
But till you came along,
We counted on our fingers and toes.
Now you're here to stay
And nobody really knows
How wonderful you are.
Why we could never reach a star,
Without you, Zero, my hero,
How wonderful you are.

[Rando]

But . . . Jesus . . . Superman is a STORY. He's not real. His only value is in how interesting he is. He doesn't literally save lives. He saves fictional lives in stories that are supposed to be entertaining. So maybe you're not arguing "who has a better story", but if not you're wasting your breath because that's all there is to argue about. because that's all superman and any other comic book is. A story.

Dude…
None of these guys are real, we’re arguing about the Avengers vs JLA, wtf?

And if we didn’t argue about non-sensical stuff, where would this board BE?

Anyway,
To continue “wasting my breath” I’m not arguing this:

Actually, superman IS boring and he IS lame.

That’s your opinion.  Do I think there been some good Superman stories?  Sure.  Am I debating the merit of one story over another?  No, that’s a matter of taste.  I like Superman as a character and have a few trades featuring him, but I don’t go out of my way to read him unless I hear about something that is particularly good.

What I AM arguing is this:

Btw Superman is NOT a hero.

This is the thing that doesn’t make any sense to me, and I’m confused that other people think this way, so I brought in some real world scenarios to help illustrate my argument.  But because Superman is fictional, you’re not a big fan of that, so I’ll stay fictional.  If a plan is falling out of the sky, and Superman catches it, and gets it safely to ground, how is he NOT considered a Hero?  To the “fictional” people on the plane, he is the biggest possible Hero that they could ever DREAM about, and will tell their families for years to come that they should thank Superman every holiday that they’re still around.  They don’t care that the plane couldn’t hurt him, they don’t think that because he can fly and is super strong that he is obligated to perform such a task.  He could have been at a bank robbery, or punching meteors, or looking through some Cheerleader’s clothing.  The point is that instead of THOSE things he chose instead to spend his very precious time saving that plane.  And afterwards he usually doesn’t hang around for thanks, he’s usually off to plug up a dam or find a new meteor to punch. 

Basically the more super powers you have, the less heroic your do-gooding is. 

So by this argument, that Kick Ass kid is more of a Hero than Superman?  Ok fine, Kick Ass saves some chick from some thugs, gets a few bruises, and gains a grateful fan.  Awesome job.  Superman grabs that plane and 200 people can go on with their lives.  I wouldn’t belittle the action that Kick Ass performed because he saved only ONE person, but I’m also not going to discount Superman saving 200 just because it was “easy” for him to do so.

I wrote way too much on this topic, and just like you can’t understand why I don’t think the way you do, right back atcha!

[Mikezilla]

Howard... I cant even begin to try and even understand your thinking... We all know you have a hard on for Batman. Thats great. I have one for Spiderman. Favorite hero. Period. But to say that Batman is more heroic than Superman just because he is in more "peril" than Superman is asinine. There wouldnt be a Batman if there wasnt a Superman. Also, you keep comparing him to Martian Manhunter. Yeah, Martian Manhunter is in fact... A Martian. Im not a big DC person, but doesnt he always use his psychic powers to try to understand human behavior? Why do you think he has all of Supermans abilities and then some? Cause he was created after Superman. MM is a perfect example of having powers doesnt make you a hero.

And of course Shmokes, these are characters of fiction. There sole purpose is to entertain children mostly, but even adults. But as you can see, we are on a forum dedicated to obsolete technology. The reason why? To relive our childhood. Same reason we read comics, watch movies, etc. So why not talk about it.

I understand what youre getting at, but I just disagree with you. Your God analogy is ridiculous. Superman isnt a God. ANYONE can beat Superman. Batman has done it a number of times. He can be mindcontrolled. He can be hurt. He can be killed, almost. He isnt some all powerful omniscient being. Youre not basing your argument on anything other than what? You still havent answered me, it cant be the comics, so it must just be the movies.

Like Rando said, I dont believe just because you are at "risk" doesnt make you any less of a hero. Hell, people call sports players "heroes", its insulting.. Keep in mind, they call them SUPER heroes. Rando said it best already about Superman catching a plane. Superman is a hero because not only does he SAVE PEOPLES LIVES and protect them on a global scale, but he always does the right thing. He is bound by his principles that are instilled in him from his parents. When Superman shows up, everyone knows its going to be ok. They are going to be safe. The whole world knows that Superman is a good guy. Keep in mind the when he was created as well.

Indiana Jones a hero? You do know that he evolved into that, pretty much to keep the franchise going right? He is an archaelogist out to further himself, a treasure hunter. Sure he puts stuff into a museum, but cmon. Its mostly for personal gain. 

[shmokes]

It's about personal sacrifice. Not all actions are equal even when they are equal. When a dad takes a second job so his kid can travel to Europe with his high school class it means something more than when Larry Ellison's kid signs up for the trip. It's not saying that Larry Ellison is a bad guy. For all I know he spends half his time trying to cure Leukemia. But not all equal actions are created equal. I simply refuse to believe that you don't understand what I'm saying. This has to be deliberate. There is a palpable difference between, "Thank you, you saved me," and, "Thank you, you risked your life to save me."  Those are two different things. Super ---smurfing--- obviously two different things. If you don't see that I have a difficult time believing that it isn't intentional.

[Dartful Dodger]

You are all my heroes, equally.

I can now hold my head up high while I spend this weekend in my basement painting HO scale buildings and scenery.


Thank you, for being bigger losers than I.

[shmokes]

As I reread my last post, admittedly after a few vodka tonics, I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. It's a simple matter of accomplishment. It was the Larry Ellison reference that tipped me off. The regular poor guy accomplishes more by sending his kid. He overcomes greater obstacles. He works harder. He accomplishes more. The end is irrelevant. Both parents reach the same end. But one parent accomplished more in the getting there than the other. THAT'S Superman's problem. His feats are too easy. They aren't the same accomplishments they would be if he weren't so ---smurfing--- powerful. His godlike abilities make commonplace what would be heroic in any other person. And that's what makes him so uninteresting. His bar is so high it's impossible to impress. And if a person isn't impressing, who the ---fudgesicle--- cares about him?

[Gray_Area]

At least in the 80s, I thought Wolvie had tons of humour. Maybe you have to spell it that way ta get it. Plus, he's the best of 'em, because HE'LL KILL YOU. No wimpiness here. The only perhaps better 80s character in this regard was The Punisher. His humor was so dark it was scary cool....or cooly scary.

[Mikezilla]

It's about personal sacrifice. Not all actions are equal even when they are equal. When a dad takes a second job so his kid can travel to Europe with his high school class it means something more than when Larry Ellison's kid signs up for the trip. It's not saying that Larry Ellison is a bad guy. For all I know he spends have his time trying to cure Leukemia. But not all equal actions are created equal. I simply refuse to believe that you don't understand what I'm saying. This has to be deliberate. There is a palpable difference between, "Thank you, you saved me," and, "Thank you, you risked your life to save me."  Those are two different things. Super ---smurfing--- obviously two different things. If you don't see that I have a difficult time believing that it isn't intentional.

Of course I see that, but these are regular people we are talking about. Like you said, we are talking about things of fiction. In the comics, when Superman defends the Earth against an unseen threat that the people dont even know about, dont you deem that heroic? The end result is yeah, their lives are saved, but cmon. Imagine the strain on Superman considering his abilities. Thats his headache, he can do pretty much anything, and he does good. He makes the "world" a better place. Other heroes look up to him, and aspire to be like him. Yeah that sounds retarded cause Im a grown ass man talking about comics in that way, but when I was a kid, a little kid, like 5 or 6, I LOVED Superman. I grew to like Spiderman more, but man. Superman was the hero for me when I was young. Especially since I didnt have any real life heroes in my life when I was a kid. My dad left, and our house was never on fire, so it was cool to imagine what it would be like to live in a world with Superman in it. I would probably say the only real person I really idolized in real life was my mom.  

[shmokes]

I thought Superman was awesome too when I was a kid. But I liked Today's Special and Smurf's then, too. Then I grew up and realized that he's nothing but dessert and in the end dinner is actually the best part. You don't realize that as a kid.s

[Rando]

But not all equal actions are created equal. I simply refuse to believe that you don't understand what I'm saying. This has to be deliberate. There is a palpable difference between, "Thank you, you saved me," and, "Thank you, you risked your life to save me."  Those are two different things.

Shmokes,
If I fell off a building, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if you flew under your own power to save me with your invulnerable pecs, caught me in your invisible jet, shot some web junk to snare me, or held a trampoline with 5 other regular guys that bounced me into a big pile of feathers.  I was going to die, and then I didn't, thanks to you.  Thanks big guy.
 

[shmokes]

Of course you wouldn't care. You just want to live. The people reading about it, on the other hand, care.

SUPERMAN ISN'T REAL. HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY SAVE LIVES.

Superman is not made to save people. He's made to entertain readers (and listeners and watchers since the advent of radio, TV, and film).

For the love of all that's holy you can't possibly think that I am maligning Superman's ability to save lives. He's good at it. Duh. You can just leave that topic quite alone because I assure you we agree on it completely. The point is, from the point of view of of the reader (the only point of view that matters, seeing as the lives Superman saves are fictional), Superman's exploits are less interesting than those of people who put themselves in harms way in order to save others.

[Vigo]

People here can discern fact from fiction... 

People don't always want to read stories about someones life being in peril...that isn't the defining element that makes a story good. When reading a comic, do you really believe that Batman's life is in danger each issue? Spiderman? Wolverine? Really? You don't enjoy superman because you worry for his life, you let yourself get caught up in a story of good versus evil. Just as it was no surprise Luke blew up the death star.

Superman represents the best in us, and in our heroic imaginations what we would love to be for the world. Superman is modern mythology. People enjoy seeing how villains mastermind a way to take down the top dog. They love to see Superman's own nature used against him. They enjoy seeing a "clash of the titans" for the fate of the world. This isn't really much different from the stories told by the Greeks.

I think it boils down that you just don't get that elemental story-lore, the symbolic nature, the larger than life unrealism that hits us somewhere on an emotional level. I think that is why you can't get past Captain America's name, and it is why Superman's power bothers you. Not everybody gets Picasso either, that doesn't mean his art is poor.

[shmokes]

I do get Superman. He is a living, walking deus ex machina. His nature makes him a poor plot device. If what Rando said in his previous post were true we'd be just as happy with, "Once upon a time Rando's life was in danger. Then he was saved. The end." That doesn't work. It may work for Rando, because he was about to die and then he didn't die and that's probably enough for him. But for the rest of us, that's pretty boring. People care how it happened. A good story needs conflict. And it's difficult to create compelling conflict with Superman because of his very nature. And what conflict can be created is almost always hackneyed and repetitive. It generally starts with a K.

[Le Chuck]

I do get Superman. He is a living, walking deus ex machina. His nature makes him a poor plot device. If what Rando said in his previous post were true we'd be just as happy with, "Once upon a time Rando's life was in danger. Then he was saved. The end." That doesn't work. It may work for Rando, because he was about to die and then he didn't die and that's probably enough for him. But for the rest of us, that's pretty boring. People care how it happened. A good story needs conflict. And it's difficult to create compelling conflict with Superman because of his very nature. And what conflict can be created is almost always hackneyed and repetitive. It generally starts with a K.

I don't recall the year, somewhere mid 60s, but there was a Supe comic where he was put in a bind when Toyman, Mytzlpliks (I think), and a few others (bizarro, metallo?) teamed up to really mess with his world.  Supe was having the damndest time but slowly pitted them against eachother and wrapped it all up rather neatly.  Then at the end, on the last page, Toyman asks how Supe did it and, this is where Supe was almost ruined for me forever, he says "I used my super hearing and super speed weeks ago to learn of this plot, I've known it was coming the whole time, and I played along to teach you a lesson."  

What a frickin ripoff.  Good story, fun traps, some legit Supe in peril moments thanks to the 5th deminsion and whammo, I knew all along.  Left a sour taste in my mouth.

I got over it and am a diehard fan again but Shmokes, I can see where you're coming from.  With a character as powerful as Supe you have to be careful that you don't take the fun out of the story.  The comic has done a pretty good job, especially using the old "You can't save them both" device, but Superman is often more of an escapist read than a seat of my pants read.  It just really isn't that kind of comic, but then again, there is plenty of room out there for all kinds of entertainment and I don't need to be hanging by an emotional thread all the time.  

<edit: word subs and syntax>

[Bootay]

I have just been observing this debate. heh

I loved Superman as a kid but as a teen I didn't like him anymore for much of the same reasons that Shmokes doesn't. But after some time I learned to like him again...but he is far from my favorite. And during the early days they always gave him a power to get out of any jam. Much like they used to give Batman ridiculous devices to get out of any jam. (Shark repellant) They would just make ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up. Example? Well Le Chuck gave a good one, but here's another:

[Malenko]

I don't think Superman could rescue you guys, sounds like you never leave your houses.

[Rando]

It may work for Rando, because he was about to die and then he didn't die and that's probably enough for him.

Probaby?

Some days yes, some days... Meh. 

[Mikezilla]

People here can discern fact from fiction... 

People don't always want to read stories about someones life being in peril...that isn't the defining element that makes a story good. When reading a comic, do you really believe that Batman's life is in danger each issue? Spiderman? Wolverine? Really? You don't enjoy superman because you worry for his life, you let yourself get caught up in a story of good versus evil. Just as it was no surprise Luke blew up the death star.

Superman represents the best in us, and in our heroic imaginations what we would love to be for the world. Superman is modern mythology. People enjoy seeing how villains mastermind a way to take down the top dog. They love to see Superman's own nature used against him. They enjoy seeing a "clash of the titans" for the fate of the world. This isn't really much different from the stories told by the Greeks.

I think it boils down that you just don't get that elemental story-lore, the symbolic nature, the larger than life unrealism that hits us somewhere on an emotional level. I think that is why you can't get past Captain America's name, and it is why Superman's power bothers you. Not everybody gets Picasso either, that doesn't mean his art is poor.

 

Those little guys save me from a lot of typing. 

Shomkes you keep dodging me. Are you basing your opinions on the comics, or the films?

[shmokes]

I'm not dodging you. I'm ignoring an obviously loaded question.

Superman is a cultural icon. He's been around longer than most of our grandparents. I'm basing my opinion of him on what I know about him, which is quite a lot thanks to how famous he is and how long he's been around. I'm basing it on comics, cartoons, movies, hearsay, books, magazines, conversations, TV shows, videogames, etc..

But no, I have not read even 1/10th of all the Superman comic books.

But before you think you've finally caught me, please realize that, "If you haven't read all the comics, you must not know what you're talking about," isn't nearly as compelling an argument as actually addressing my complaints and showing how they're wrong. Saying that I'm categorically wrong because I don't have enough education doesn't actually make what I'm saying wrong. It just gives you an excuse to not address what I'm saying.

[shmokes]

I think it will most likely suck. Joss Whedon is the only thing that gives me any hope that the movie might be okay. And his track record is a bit spotty. He created Buffy and Firefly, but he also created Dollhouse. He directed Serenity, but that's the only feature film under his belt. It's not much to go off of. There are plenty of directors out there who have one great film swimming in a see of mediocrity on their resumes. Moreover, Serenity was a small, personal, fairly inexpensive film based on his own creation. The Avengers is a $150 million tent pole film which means that Whedon is going to have producers following his every move, saying things like , "Oh . . . you can't do that," and, "Hey, we really need you to have a love-triangle in the film so this will go over well as a date movie," etc. He's going to have back seat drivers on this film that he didn't have on Serenity.

On top of all that, his work is cut out for him. When a comic book movie tries to follow too large a cast of characters, it almost always ends up giving a shallow treatment to each (because there's just not enough time) and the movie is bad.  Hell, Thor had super shallow character development when he had an hour and a half all to himself. The first two X-men movies showed that it can be done. But it usually is not done well. Even Sam Raimi, who proved that he can make an excellent comic book movie (Spidey 1 and 1) faltered when he tried to cram in more characters (Spidey 3).

And yet . . . it looks like Avengers is gonna be great!

[Well Fed Games]

And yet . . . it looks like Avengers is gonna be great!

Ah, glad the reviews are promising. Not sure if I can handle another in-theater viewing so soon after trying to watch Cabin in the Woods through the light of cell phone screens and people jibber-jabbering, but the buzz sure makes it tempting.

[kahlid74]

I am late to this, but Joss just isn't what people think he's cracked up to be.  I think the movie will be entertaining especially the Loki/Hulk fight where someone gets thoroughly thrashed, but alas it won't be anything special.

Also, if you think Superman is lame you're entitled to that opinion.  I would add however that unless you've really delved into the depths of comics he's in it's just that, an opinion.  If you had delved you'd see that there are numerous other hero's and villains of his level of power if not stronger, proving he is in peril fairly often.  Additionally you'd know he's 100% susceptible to magic.  Also, Supes isn't invincible. that's a misnomer.  Dig deeper and you'll see he isn't.

My friend and I had this discussion once, about if people (DC) just went bat snot insane and started fighting who would win.  In the end it came down to Flash vs Zatana as the last standing.  Finally, we just couldn't go against Flash.  The ability to instantaneously kill everyone was just so overpowering.  The speed force too.  Side note, Flash can kill supes without Kryptonite, just saying.

[shmokes]

Nobody can kill Superman. He's alive now, even after this:

[kahlid74]

Nobody can kill Superman. He's alive now, even after this:

Now wait a minute, the resurrection of Super-hero's and Villains has nothing to do with Superman and everything to do with what's wrong with comics in general.  Everyone completely abuses death.  So this issue is relevant to all, not just supes.

Also I'm on the same page with you on this, it's ridiculous now.

[shmokes]

Superman invented it, though.   

[Vigo]

Except Jean Grey did it first.

[Mikezilla]

Except Jean Grey did it first.

  Good ol vigo.

Im kinda stoked to see The Avengers. Kind of irritated most of the world gets to see it before us, I dont understand why they do that.  

How the hell is Flash able to kill everyone? What the hell is the Speed Force? The only thing I have ever heard that about was in Kingdom Come, and I thought it was kind of lame, like they were trying to make Flash more powerful than what he was. Im not big into DC, Im a Marvel guy, but cmon. Supes essentially has the same power as Flash does, right?! I dont know who Zantana is.

I just hope they get the Hulk right. Thats pretty much all I care about at this point regarding the Avengeres. If they show Thanos, Im going to get a boner. I take that back. They tried doing Galactus in FF and he was a cloud of smoke, so nevermind...

Also, ANYONE can kill Superman. Thats the cool thing. Batman has beat the crap out of him a number of times.

[shmokes]

Except Jean Grey did it first.

Not the same thing for a variety of reasons, but most importantly because Superman invented it in the sense that he was the domino that started practice kahlid74 referred to of "everyone abuses death". Blaming Jean Grey for starting the trend of superhero death/resurrection is barely more legit than blaming Jesus.  

[Rando]

Except Jean Grey did it first.

Not the same thing for a variety of reasons, but most importantly because Superman invented it in the sense that he was the domino that started practice kahlid74 referred to of "everyone abuses death". Blaming Jean Grey for starting the trend of superhero death/resurrection is barely more legit than blaming Jesus.  

Dude!
Characters have been dying and coming back for years, Superman just happened to make the news as it was at the height of the Speculation market which caused a run on the bagged versions of the comic as everyone bought 2 to only open one and sell the other one at a profit later... glut ensued, comics market crashed, companies went under, and resulted in bitter comic readers. 

But onto topic, can't WAIT for Avengers, might even get a babysitter and see it in the theater!! (Dude, this is big news.  )

[emphatic]

I'll be seeing this in about 2 hrs! I'm pretty stoked too, as I love Joss Whedon as well as most of these characters.