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I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....

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Donkbaca:

The way I see it playing out in my head:

 "hey this game is pretty fun, but these atari sticks won't cut it in an arcade situation, got any 8 way sticks out there?"
 "Well Wico makes a decent one I have heard"
 " Sweet, you think we can get them a little longer?"

I think that is about as deep as the conversation went.  Call me cynical.  The development time on these games were too short to assume any sort of long beta test with different control schemes to find the optimum one.  I think it was more likely the designer told the hardware guy what he was going for and the hardware guy cobbled something together.

I DOUBT that the robotron guys went through several different types of joysticks before settling on the one they did because it offered the best game play.  i just don't think they thought that much about it or cared that much to be honest.  I of course could be wrong, and lots of you people think I am, and I guess we will never know the truth, but I honestly think we fanboys impose too much mythology on what really happened.

CheffoJeffo:

The question remains -- why choose to have a custom-length shaft ? The only answer that makes sense is "it results in better gameplay".

I've only ever seen posts that 4" sticks are better than 3.5" sticks. Never the other way. That decision cost money and wasn't arbitrary. It also wasn't repeated in other games (save one that I can think of).

BobA is correct, although, as RayB points out, different rules applied to vids back in the Golden age.

If we were talking about Teletubby-Streetfighter-Eleventy-Rainbow edition, then I would wholeheartedly agree about the choice of controls, because we really are talking just about fanboys.

Back in the day, however, the fanboys were the people who made vids and they ruled the roost on design (not so much on money).

And, yeah, you are wrong. And right, although nobody has given you credit for the "random element" in arcade design.

The 2 joystick control system was chosen because Eugene smashed his hand in a car accident and couldn't play Bezerk. Random element.

Did you know, though, that Robo was originally a scrolling screen game ? Nope, because it was changed during that "long" period of beta testing. (somebody posting in this thread grew up in the 90s and doesn't remember how games used to be developed).

If there was no thought going into controls at the time, why is it that the sequel to Robotron used a 49-way stick (which I don't think existed previously) ?

Again, your theory presents no answer to the obvious questions.

And, even if you, by some strange convolution of the universe and folding of the space-time-reality continuum, happened to be correct, there still would be no better stick to play Robotron with than 4" Wicos.

Shaft envy ?

 ::)

Xiaou2:


--- Quote ---Watch some of the videos on pinball games etc.  There was alot of effort but the bean counters were always involved at the end.   
--- End quote ---

 Your talking which years?

 Modern Stern = Yes.

 Older Williams / other  =  No.

 Look at a game like Haunted House.  3 levels of gameplay, which equates to a lot of extra parts and assembly labor.  Yet it, like many others like it, were not held back by restrictions.  Heck, look at Banzai Run...  A complete vertical playfield.


--- Quote ---I think that is about as deep as the conversation went.  Call me cynical.  The development time on these games were too short to assume any sort of long beta test with different control schemes to find the optimum one.
--- End quote ---


 Time to develop a game like Robotron didnt need 3yrs like todays games.  They also had a boatload of highly skilled people all working in various depts.  The programmers used a direct language.. and no messing around with interpretive stuff. No windows to drag and move around all day long, and no youtube or facebook to distract them. The long hours were brutal, but super productive... and a lot of these guys created for the Love of creation.  Many were given free reign of making anything they wanted.

 Graphics were simple.. and being that memory and processing power were limited, there were only so many things that could be done effectively.  Once the games engine framework was up, its was on to balance and perfection of gameplay.


 
--- Quote ---I think it was more likely the designer told the hardware guy what he was going for and the hardware guy cobbled something together.
--- End quote ---

 Eugene Jarvis, creator of Robotron, was at a place which had Robotron playing on an emulator. It didnt have leaf sticks.  He refused to play it.  I think that speaks volumes about the creators thoughts and feelings on controllers.

 Take a look at Jamie Fentons page.  She created "Gorf", and was working on a new game "MS Gorf".  You can see her development machine, which includes a custom made control panel, that has a spinner and a trigger stick.  It was her choice on what controllers to use, and she chose those to work with.

 Yes, there were Hardware guys.  However, the creators were the ones barking the orders to them.  If a controller wasnt working well, they had them sent back and modified... or exchanged them for something else.   They had input, and even helped come up with unique controllers, for the hardware guys to implement.


--- Quote --- I DOUBT that the robotron guys went through several different types of joysticks before settling on the one they did because it offered the best game play.  i just don't think they thought that much about it or cared that much to be honest.  I of course could be wrong, and lots of you people think I am, and I guess we will never know the truth, but I honestly think we fanboys impose too much mythology on what really happened.
--- End quote ---

 Back then, programmers actually Liked making games.  They got to create great things.. instead of being a code monkey doing boring sub-assemblies of some boring FPS game.  So, Yes, they cared... a Lot.

 The truth is out there, and these guys are still alive.  Many are still active in some sort of development.   

 The thing is.... the fanboy here is actually you.  You are young, and like most youngsters, you believe anything from the past isnt as good as the stuff made in YOUR chosen time period.  You cant accept the reality of the situation... and so much so, that you cant even be bothered to research it.


 As someone stated..  games were designed to last a many month on the field.  Many of Todays games can be beaten in the same day its purchased.  Which isnt much of a problem with a home game... because they still sell.  With coin-op however...   A game that gets old too quickly, was too easy and allowed players too much machine time, or a game that was too difficult... all would add up to major losses.  Loss of sales in the hundreds of thousands... and a bad reputation for future Op purchases.

 Many of todays programmers have it easy.  They barely have to make any gameplay at all... let alone balance it... let alone have it being split-second tight in 'skin-of-your-teeth' tolerances.


Gray_Area:


--- Quote ---The 2 joystick control system was chosen because Eugene smashed his hand in a car accident and couldn't play Bezerk. Random element.
--- End quote ---

I've never understood this. Berzerk only requires holding the button down at the right time, as it auto-fires. 'Clump'.......'clump'.......'clump'.  Not that I'm bitching, because I didn't like Berzerk controls scheme....though now I realize it would've been too easy with a separate firing stick.




--- Quote ---Time to develop a game like Robotron didnt need 3yrs like todays games...Once the games engine framework was up, its was on to balance and perfection of gameplay.
--- End quote ---

Yes, although games did *take* a year or more to develop.



--- Quote ---The centering grommet provides a sort of progressive resistance, which helps slow the stick towards the edges, and keeps hard smashes feeling soft, due to the rubber absorbing a lot of the shock forces.
--- End quote ---

I see now. It's similar to (but perhaps not as tough as) the grommet in the flight stick used in M.A.C.H. 3 (and which I have in one of my machines; it's a beast). I definitely want to check one out. Are/were the microswitch Wicos different?

boardjunkie:

I remember when the p360 "add on" unit came out in the early 90s. I installed them in a Robotron....the players *hated* them. They got swapped back out for the std leafs in less that a couple weeks. The system they used didn't allow for any adjustment, which was a major flaw and why they never really caught on.

The P360s were *not* OEM on the MK series, the Happ ultimate was. They "worked", but players tore them up quickly. The plastic centering system literally chewed itself up with hard use. I would apply silicone grease to the centering parts to slow down the process, but they still eventually wore out. Lame...

20 years ago I designed an optical retrofit for leaf switch sticks, but never got around to prototyping it. It used slotted opto interrupters that could slide on a track for adjustment, and a single leaf type "actuator" for each direction that had the tab on the end to break the opto beam. There was a need to incorporate a hex inverter chip to invert the output of the opto, since when the slot is "open", the output is high. Inverting that duplicates the function of the switch. Same thing works for buttons....as evidenced by the WMS Fliptronic opto flipper cabinet switches.

Watch...I'll see these on the market in a month now that I said something. Wouldn't be the first time I opened my yap and had an idea stolen...(you listening TV Jones??).

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