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I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
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opt2not:

--- Quote from: smartbomb2084 on February 01, 2012, 06:24:51 pm ---So is anyone making any repro 4 inch red ball WICO type joystick shafts for ROBOTRON these days?

I got a set off of eBay for $55 plus back in 2004 when I needed them and would have paid $155 plus... you just gotta have them to play original ROBOTRON.

--- End quote ---
Wolfeel over at KLOV had a run of NOS ones last year. I'm not sure if he has any left, but you could try asking him. I think he had them for $50 shipped, so slightly cheaper than what you saw back in '04.
There was talk about making another run, as well as hallowed shaft versions. I'm not sure if that was just talk though.



--- Quote ---The centering grommets are key.  I'm sure we have all found vintage cabs with WICO joysticks only to find  that the shaft has rusted itself to the centering grommet and the only way to remove it to reuse the joystick base is destruction of the shaft and grommet.

I just bought 2 spares. I've never seen them cheaper.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-WICO-Joystick-CENTER-GROMMET-FINAL-QUANTITY-/170758988415?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c207627f

--- End quote ---
That's where I got mine too.
Bob Roberts has grommets for the midway sticks (pacman, etc...), not sure if he stocked the Wico ones.


--- Quote from: Donkbaca on February 01, 2012, 06:40:34 pm ---I was more shocked at the P360 comment re fighters since that is what MKII cabs came with from what I recalled.

--- End quote ---
I wouldn't touch any MK game with a ten foot pole either.  >:D
Xiaou2:

--- Quote ---To clarify, I am skeptical that the hardware was picked specifically because it was the optimum one for the game.  I think it was picked because they had it around.
--- End quote ---

 Many Arcade companies made their own controller devices from Scratch.  Such as the Hard Drivin Shifter, wheel, and pedal sets.   Discs of Tron Spinner.  Pole Position wheel & shifter.  Sega Turbo geared wheel + 4 position optical pedal set, 4" Diameter trackball on X O Football / Missile Command...  and much more.   

 In fact, Marble Madness creators were originally trying to make a motorized force-feedback trackball set.  Unfortunately, they couldnt get it to work right & ran out of time... so used the standard design instead.

 Back in those days, it wasnt about being generic carbon-copy and cheap.  It was about making games that were optimized to the Player experience,  Breaking technical ground,  And pushing the limits on hardware & programming to the maximum.  Games were far better balanced, and challenging, as they actually spend a Lot of dedicated time to make games Play better.


--- Quote ---were more concerned with catering to operators and distributors than they were to actual gamers and the gaming experience.
--- End quote ---

 Furthest from reality of the 80s to early/mid 90s.  Thats more of the Modern attitude, and the reason why the arcades Sunk.

 And furthermore, the Arcade designers didnt care much about catering to the Ops much at all.  Try to find and then read coin meters on 20 games in a row.  They are all over the place. Some, in places that are very hard to get at or read.  Some cabs are a nightmare to work on and get at components.  I could go on and on.  Games were designed to appeal to the players.. as the players happiness meant more earnings and sales.  End Of Line.

 Generic controllers came as a means of convenience.  A company producing mass amounts of controls & parts for cheap, with good quality. 

 Also, when certain designs were proven effective, they had no need to be re-invented / re-designed / custom built.  IE, the standard Trackball design has never really changed much.

 Leafs have some Excellent properties... but, they were somewhat unreliable as they can get out of whack over time.. and they need to be kept cleaned.  However, games like Galaga or Asteriods Deluxe still play better with Leafs, as you can activate the button with a light touch, not needing to Clash the button all the way down (less player fatigue & faster shoots).  And leaf sticks were actually more durable, compared to the earlier microswitch designs.  (Happ Ultimates eat through spacers in a matter of a few months)

 

--- Quote ---I was more shocked at the P360 comment re fighters since that is what MKII cabs came with from what I recalled.
--- End quote ---

 Doubtful... and even if it was so, they were probably taken out really quickly when they failed.


I worked for Time Out, both before and after the Namco buyout.  NONE of the fighters had the 360 in them.  Not in ANY of the 3 locations in my city,  nor as far as Ive heard & seen, in any arcade owned by Namco.  (many stores swapped games often, and Namco owned a good deal of the Mall arcade stores)

 All the new fighters, and even many older titles, used Happs Comps.  A limited few had supers.

 Optical sticks are expensive (hence they were Not in most arcades), and optics have and can do fail just like anything else.  And when they fail, its much more of a pain and expense, to deal with it.  A micro can be swapped in a minute or so, depending on crimp -vs- soldered terminals.

 One thing about Leaf sticks.. is that you can use them on such a way that you rarely bottom them out.  Meaning, you never really smash the stick into the edges of the mechanism.. and even if you do, most of the forces are very dull due to the rubber grommet, the leaf springs themselves, and the way things are assembled.  Every time you jolt on other controllers.. it adds up to a certain level of stress fatigue.  Where as leaf controls are more 'floaty' and can be used for longer duration with less discomfort.


 I have not used a 360, so I cant comment about how they feel and react.  I do however know the Wico Leafs, Comps, and many others to which to compare with... and nothing Ive used works better for classics like Robotron than the Wico leaf sticks... even if they are more of a pain to maintain / adjust every so often.
RandyT:

--- Quote from: Vigo on February 01, 2012, 04:52:21 pm ---I didn't really read the post from donk as meaning that microswitches weren't available....I more read it that leafs were just the dominant type of joystick available for commercial machines. It was the norm.

--- End quote ---

As others have stated; it was "the norm" for a reason, and that reason isn't because it was "what they had laying around".  There are fundamental differences in performance between the two switch types.  There is no reset phase in the operation of a leaf switch.  This is a big plus for a number of gaming controller applications. 

My take on it is that the industry went to snap action switches primarily at the behest of the operators who may have had hundreds of machines on a route, making regular maintenance a nightmare.  Snap action switches smash through corrosion or dirt much better than the wiping action of the leaf.  The wiping action also wears the heck out of the contacts when a leaf is poorly adjusted and/or improperly installed.  But this change didn't enhance the experience of the customer when playing the game, other than that the controller on a neglected machine would at least work.
CheffoJeffo:


--- Quote from: RandyT on February 02, 2012, 05:49:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: Vigo on February 01, 2012, 04:52:21 pm ---I didn't really read the post from donk as meaning that microswitches weren't available....I more read it that leafs were just the dominant type of joystick available for commercial machines. It was the norm.

--- End quote ---

As others have stated; it was "the norm" for a reason, and that reason isn't because it was "what they had laying around".  There are fundamental differences in performance between the two switch types.  There is no reset phase in the operation of a leaf switch.  This is a big plus for a number of gaming controller applications. 

My take on it is that the industry went to snap action switches primarily at the behest of the operators who may have had hundreds of machines on a route, making regular maintenance a nightmare.  Snap action switches smash through corrosion or dirt much better than the wiping action of the leaf.  The wiping action also wears the heck out of the contacts when a leaf is poorly adjusted and/or improperly installed.  But this change didn't enhance the experience of the customer when playing the game, other than that the controller on a neglected machine would at least work.

--- End quote ---

THIS.

FWIW, there were microswitch-based joys at the time ... and they were made of Strongtanium(tm).

Nintendo used microswitches for damned near everything.

If, in any thread, Cheffo, RandyT and Xiaou2 all agree, well then either they are talking about what should be an obvious truth or you had best be watching for the four horsemen.
smartbomb2084:
If you ask me (and nobody did) I would say that the move from leaf switch to microswitch has to be related to cost and/or ease of manufacturing.

Seldom is a better more expensive product used when manufacturing costs directly affect the bottom line.

Leaf switches are made of metal, a lot of metal, and that equals money.
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