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I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
CheffoJeffo:
Well, while I might like to argue, that is definitely the most authoritative answer I have seen to date.
I still can't think of *any* game that used 4" shafts other than Robotron and Smash TV (so have no idea what "standard Wico joystick" came in the same height).
Heck, didn't Splat! use 3.5" shafts.
:cheers: for following up on it.
RandyT:
--- Quote from: boardjunkie on May 09, 2012, 02:48:34 pm ---Ok, here it is direct from Larry DeMar:
My memory is that the taller sticks were used to minimize the knuckle-scraping on the panel. Also, in that height, the standard Wico joystick had a thinner shaft. The sticks used on Robotron had a much thicker shaft as the standard sticks could be bent when play becomes vigorous enough to move the machine using the 2 ":handles". I don't remember whether the fat shaft stick was stocked by Wico or whether they developed this variant especially for Robotron. I suspect it was the latter. -Larry
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Based on the following;
--- Quote ---The dual joystick control design resulted from two experiences in Jarvis's life: an automobile accident and playing Berzerk. Prior to beginning development, Jarvis injured his right hand in an accident—his hand was still in a cast when he returned to work, which prevented him from using a traditional joystick with a button. While in rehabilitation, he thought of Berzerk.[7][9] Though Jarvis enjoyed the game and similar titles, he was dissatisfied with the control scheme; Berzerk used a single joystick to move the on-screen character and a button to fire the weapon, which would shoot the same direction the character was facing.[7][10] Jarvis noticed that if the button was held down, the character would remain stationary and the joystick could be used to fire in any direction.[4][10] This method of play inspired Jarvis to add a second joystick dedicated to aiming the direction projectiles were shot.
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...it seems as though Jarvis had more to do with the controls selection and implementation. "My memory is" is not a definitive statement, and implies either a layer of removal from the process, or at minimum, a poor recollection. It's also probable that control selection was based on play testing at Williams, who likely made the final decision about which controls were used.
--- Quote from: boardjunkie on May 09, 2012, 12:21:28 pm ---....small switch adjustments make a big difference in overall sensitivity. And the switch ain't gonna break just because you adjust it once.
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See the attached diagram. These are rough, but close scale drawings from one of my WICO's. The first two are 3.5" and 4" shafts at the same angle, and show the difference in throw for the user. The last is the short stick at the same throw distance as the long one. There is a ~50% difference in switch gap represented. You might say "big deal", but it is. There is so much difference that, when the gap is adjusted, the stick cannot even be pushed far enough to close the contacts, due to the mechanical restriction of the stick. Also keep in mind that these sticks are circularly restricted. If it can't (or barely) be hit in a primary direction, in the diagonal, the contacts would be "a country mile" apart.
I'm not saying that "knuckle scraping" considerations did not come into play in the length selection, but it certainly wasn't the only, or perhaps even the primary consideration. There's too much evidence to the contrary.
RandyT
opt2not:
--- Quote from: RandyT on May 10, 2012, 12:27:58 pm ---See the attached diagram. These are rough, but close scale drawings from one of my WICO's. The first two are 3.5" and 4" shafts at the same angle, and show the difference in throw for the user. The last is the short stick at the same throw distance as the long one. There is a ~50% difference in switch gap represented. You might say "big deal", but it is. There is so much difference that, when the gap is adjusted, the stick cannot even be pushed far enough to close the contacts, due to the mechanical restriction of the stick. Also keep in mind that these sticks are circularly restricted. If it can't (or barely) be hit in a primary direction, in the diagonal, the contacts would be "a country mile" apart.
I'm not saying that "knuckle scraping" considerations did not come into play in the length selection, but it certainly wasn't the only, or perhaps even the primary consideration. There's too much evidence to the contrary.
RandyT
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This is more along the lines of what I figured the technical reason for the 4" shaft was.
The Knuckle Scraping reason seems a bit strange to me. If you look at the original robotron panel, the joystick routing in the wood isn't very deep at all for mounting, so the joystick shaft doesn't sit that much higher than a normal joystick, above the panel (accounting for the 3/4" wood). I'll have to take measurements above the panel when I get home, but that doesn't seem like the whole story to me.
Eugene Jarvis is going to be at the North West Pinball and Arcade Show next month, I plan on going, and want to hear him speak at his panel. If I can get the question in, I'll ask him why they choose the 4" over the 3.5" for Robotron.
Gray_Area:
I played another Robo today. It was a nicer machine and had the 4" shafts. He said he didn't know how old they were, but seemed pretty new to me. It felt like the grommets were new and not broken in. Much like my NOS flight stick: smooth movement but a ---smurfing--- pig to move. I struggled to break 200k on default settings (although at least the shaft length meant I wasn't worried about ganking my fingers). My P360s have a heavy spring, but they are still way easier to move around and find diagonals than these leaf sticks were. Like the difference between hydralic and mechanical movement.
--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo on May 09, 2012, 12:33:42 pm ---
I'll start by pointing out that Williams mounted their dust washers in a routed recess under the overlay. No finger pinching.
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No, pinching between the stick shaft and the edge of the shaft hole in the CP.
boardjunkie:
Right. Either that or part of your finger getting "sucked under" the metal via the dust washer.
And before you all jump on me say'n it can't happen, it used to happen to me on certain games when I was a kid. This was the early 80s and panels with washers on top were not common. Off topic, but the ball controller on Kick/Kickman was notorious for this.