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2012 BYOAC Token design thread
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DrewKaree:

--- Quote from: Q*Bert_OP on March 04, 2012, 05:13:32 pm ---
Remind me why I'd put thousands of dollars of my own money to help the community, take no money until I have product to ship, sit on lots of merchandise, and profit just fractions of a cent per coin, rounding the cost per coin up to the next penny.


--- End quote ---

I'd rather hear Santoro's reasons why he did the exact thing you're griping about - several years in a row.  It might explain why he didn't chime in.



--- Quote from: stan2323 on March 04, 2012, 09:29:27 pm ---
When Q-bert said he was going to do it I was very happy :applaud: and sorry to say this Santoro glad that another person was going to be doing this and maybe get it done instead of stringing things along for a year and then just getting them done in the first few months of the following year. 


--- End quote ---

Given the ones of ones of designs in this very thread, you might do well to apply some logic as to just why this appears to be a process that is "stringing things along".  But whatever, right?  As long as you can buy something from whoever does the grunt work for you for pennies on the dollar, amIright?  The beef isn't with what you believe it to be, but if you can't be bothered to figure out just why this takes so dang long to mint a niche token that appeals to the masses within said niche.... :lame:

 

--- Quote from: Vigo on March 05, 2012, 03:38:40 pm ---Santoro nearly completely

--- End quote ---

Which is it?  He nearly dropped off the radar, or he completely dropped off the radar?

Nevermind, that's arguing idiocy.  Dropping Santoro a PM would shoot it to his e-mail inbox, not just leave a little message here for him.  I say this knowing this from actually dealing with him and PM'ing him.  At the very least, it WAS questionable and lacking in tact NOT to drop him a PM - you assumed yourself that he "nearly completely dropped off the radar" here, so why the eff would anyone simply assume that he would magically pop in here and do a search for all threads with "Santoro" or "token" or whatever other such nonsense he was magically supposed to receive a bat signal for? 

To add the bit about minting past runs with no mention of remuneration certainly dips its toes in the "sleazy" pond.


Also, Donkey Kong, if we were talking signs, I'm sure you'd feel as slighted as Santoro.  It's a shame you're leaving people behind in your wake(bored).
Donkey_Kong:

--- Quote from: Vigo on March 05, 2012, 03:38:40 pm ---Santoro nearly completely dropped off the radar for the last 2 years. I don't think Qbert was necessarily "sleazy" for not dropping a PM. Sure he should have done it, but Santoro was not responding to anybody here, nor responded to a thread message left to him. We were all sitting around waiting and wondering what was next. It is just a bit much to fault someone for trying to pick up the ball that has been dropped for 2 years, especially when it is a staple product of the community. In the real world of business, if someone fails to deliver a product, that is opening a door for all sorts of competition to take over without any courtesy PM's.

While my work might not have been the best, I personally contributed designs in the spirit of giving Santoro art pro bono on his promise that he would sell new tokens to the community. As a customer, I am disappointed in the lack of product, especially when I investing my time into him as well. As a fellow member here, I fully understand that he has been going through a lot and understand the circumstances.

As far as the previous designs go, I agree with Saint. It should come with permission from Santoro and the designers as well. I think Qbert could easily find non-winner designs from the contest and get permission from those designers to make an "alternate" previous year token. I am sure Qbert has invested a lot of time to make something happen, and I wish him success.

I think both Qbert and Santoro are outstanding members here, and would hate to see either tarnished by this, and of course we would all love to see new tokens for sale.

--- End quote ---

Drew- I'm not leaving anybody in a wake, mostly because I do my best to not even create one these days. I believe that for the most part his statements are looking at the argument from both sides which I commend him for. What I agreed with most without pointing it out is the last paragraph...


--- Quote ---I think both Qbert and Santoro are outstanding members here, and would hate to see either tarnished by this, and of course we would all love to see new tokens for sale.
--- End quote ---

I too value Santoro's contributions to this forum, greatly. When he does a build he documents them to the T and you can tell it's genuinely written to help the next guy. I also have mucho respect for the guy that once said, way back when my wife and I were producing arcade characters for the community in exchange for mac n cheese..."HAVE a BACKUP PLAN!" I took those four little words of advice quite literally from papa Santoro and remember it being an actual pivot point in the direction of our business. Ironically, the subject being discussed back then, that prompted Santoro utter the words just happen to be trademark and intellectual property discussions in relation to NC.

There were many comments both for against both points of view preceding Vigo's comment. I could have said "well put, let's move on" to many of them, but I chose his because I really like that last line again about Qbert and Santoro being outstanding members. I'm essentially rooting for closure on the matter, it's too bad you took it as a stab at Santoro because it was anything but that!
Vigo:
Hey Drew, Long time!

Just to clarify on my post, I was recounting the frustration from the token contest thread. Santoro was absent for months on end, then would throw in a message saying that it is still on, then months of nothing, rinse and repeat. Two years later, we are no closer to a token. That doesn't take away how grateful I am for him putting this all all these years, but it really set the climate for this to happen.

Now I know fully know that Santoro has had his reasons and hardships and fully sympathize that he has had good reasons that he has not been available, but putting that in the perspective of people who wanted tokens and designed artwork for him, it was only a matter of time before someone here would try to step up and make it happen when Santoro didn't. It is just the nature of the situation. I don't classify him as a bad guy for throwing a message on Santoro's thread, wait for a response on the thread, and do something because Santoro didn't object. Heck, if I knew a darn thing about making tokens, I would have probably offered to do it as well.

I do draw the line and trying profit off of the dies that Santoro had cast without direct permission, but I was willing to give benefit of the doubt that it was a misunderstanding of how the system works.
pointdablame:
Some folks really need to separate two distinct situations here:

1) Santoro is not making 2011/2012 tokens.  QBert has volunteered to take on that task.  That's fine.  Even Santoro says it's fine.  He has things going on and can't do it, and QBert might be able to step up to the plate.  All's well in the world.  QBert probably could have reached out to Santoro to discuss it first but chose not to.  Nothing but perhaps a slight lack of decorum there.  I think a little courtesy PM to Santoro was in order, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think anyone is gonna cry over it.

2) QBert made a pretty crystal clear indication that he wanted to re-mint Santoro's tokens without his permission.  He didn't get "permission" to even do the 2012 tokens and then goes much further down the line to taking Santoro's designs.  I fail to see how anyone could have any feelings on the ownership of the dies other than that they belong to Santoro.  He put up the money, he started the business, he ran the site, he got the artists to make the designs.  IIRC he also gave tokens to the artists as thanks/payment, but maybe I'm wrong.  For QBert to suggest that he is going to re-run these tokens and take money out of Santoro's pocket after the work Dave has put in over the years with tokens is downright despicable.  Totally sleazy act IMO.

I think it might be wise for us all to pull back on the feelings of Internet EntitlementTM.  The BYOAC tokens are only a yearly thing b/c Santoro made it so.  How quickly people feel entitled to a yearly run of tokens when it was so recently just a pipe dream.  Yeah it sucks we didn't get new ones for a few years but understand what it is.  This is a community member doing this, not a multi-national company.  I assume QBert would be in the same situation, unless he is some worldwide token magnate.  Stop acting like yearly tokens are the right of BYOAC members.

I want 2012 tokens.  I'll buy them from Santoro... I'll buy them from QBert.  I just hope they get made.
DrewKaree:
I don't think that Q-bert is a bad guy, but he's surely not gone about this the way I believe many think he should.  

I'm just sayin' a PM isn't too much to ask when taking over someone's project.  It seems an awful lot of people are willing to gloss over the fact that we even HAVE a PM feature simply because Q-bert posted it in his thread.  The re-issue of tokens from dies owned by Santoro.... I don't see anyone other than Santoro pointing out his comments on re-issuing those tokens - if people are willing to absolve Q-bert of the perceived slight simply because he posted in Santoro's thread, where are those same people SUPPORTING Santoro for posting exactly what Q-bert "ignored" after Santoro replied?  Does anyone else here see how posting in a thread isn't DIRECT contact/conversation with the relevant party like a PM would be?

As another example, Pixelhugger missed some info someone was trying to get to him for the same reasons as Santoro, real-life issues, when I had no problems getting Pixel to respond when I'd PM him.

I hang around here infrequently now, but when I've needed to get ahold of someone, the PM has always been my first step, and has yet to fail me.  

I was a beneficiary of Santoro's efforts, but there's no way he made anything close to compensate him for the work he had to do.  That will forever skew my view towards Santoro and what he provided us, and it'll always mean I'll take his side if something as dead simple as a PM can't be extended to a member who extended so much to US as a community in the first place.

 
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