Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync

[RetroACTIVE]

There are a couple of threads here on this particular monitor.  I would like to get the monitor presets done for it but its a little vague to me on how these records are determined.

I can gather the info from the manual [p.8] Looking at GroovyMAME monitor presets entries there is some overlap in each of these preset lines (as I am looking at the D9800 for reference).  I'm trying to figure out how the overlap is determined...

I've begun playing with GroovyMAME with my HD4890 using the D9800 as the monitor type and I'm not sure the D9800 monitor type setting works well enough.  It could be other things but what I find happening its that its not picking the correct resolution.  I used to run an ArcadeVGA setup and had most games working at their native resolutions so I'm pretty sure the monitor can handle most of what I need to throw at it.

Of course the difficulty I'm having could just be me getting my feet wet here

Thanks for your help!
Jim

PS. GroovyMAME is cool    BTW

[Calamity]

It could be other things but what I find happening its that its not picking the correct resolution.  I used to run an ArcadeVGA setup and had most games working at their native resolutions so I'm pretty sure the monitor can handle most of what I need to throw at it.

But is the "correct resolution" actually available in your system? Just in case you didn't, check that the same monitor specs (or monitor type) are selected both in VMMaker and GroovyMAME. Unlike in Linux, Window's GroovyMAME can't create *new* resolutions on the fly, just modify the ones it finds in the system, so you need to create the basic list of resolutions before running GroovyMAME, by means of VMMaker, and that list will depend highly on the type of monitor you select.

Whatever. I'll help you produce those monitor specs, so this post can be used for reference in the future.

[RetroACTIVE]

Thank you.

As far as correctness ... Yeah I get what you are saying.  With my old system I would tune each game to work "well enough".  All my horizontal CGA games used to work well enough and verticals were always a challenge to get them to work rotated to fit... but they worked well enough... there were always a couple that were problematic and I would default them to 640x480 or something reasonable.

I've ran VMMaker it seems like it defaults to 640x480 interlaced in the desktop and I get a blank screen when trying to run any game.

In all fairness I am probably doing something wrong.   I'm just getting acquainted with this.

I really appreciate the help with the monitor specs.

[Calamity]

Just post here a log of a random game that produces a blank screen, by doing this:

groovymame.exe romname -v -md 4 >romname.txt

I'll have a look at it before we go any further. When you have your system up and running we'll start with the monitor specs.

[RetroACTIVE]

Just post here a log of a random game that produces a blank screen, by doing this:

groovymame.exe romname -v -md 4 >romname.txt

I'll have a look at it before we go any further. When you have your system up and running we'll start with the monitor specs.

Will do... I will have time this evening.

Thanks again
Jim

[RetroACTIVE]

Ran test using mk

[Calamity]

Hi RetroACTIVE,

You seem to be using 'magic' resolutions. Switch your video options to -video d3d inside mame.ini.

[RetroACTIVE]

Hi RetroACTIVE,

You seem to be using 'magic' resolutions. Switch your video options to -video d3d inside mame.ini.

Now we are getting somewhere!

Games are now showing video!  MK is using the wrong resolution as it looks like only the top quadrant of the screen is in view... In other words the image is too big to fit the screen.

I tried Frogger, that seemed to fit fine.  Pacman was too large to fit (top and bottom were outside the visible area).

I'll post more debug files later if need be.

I've been around a long time and can I say based upon reading this whole topic and your responses to myself and others here you are likely one of the most helpful and well mannered people I've seen in a long time!

Thanks so much!

[Calamity]

Thanks for your kind words.

Well, there seems to be something wrong there. Assuming you started with a fresh created mame.ini (groovymame.exe -cc), make sure you're not storing any atwork inside the corresponding folder, try renaming the folder just in case. Others have experienced issues with artwork when using magic resolutions. You can also active the -artworkcrop option.

Indeed, GroovyMAME's binary should be placed in an empty folder and start from there. Old cfg files could mess with its behaviour.

If this didn't solve your issues we'll need to use the standard methods: dynamic video mode table.

[RetroACTIVE]

Definitely was a clean install.  I started with a completely new computer and hard disk.  The only thing I took from my old system were rom files.

I will double check to be sure.

[RetroACTIVE]

One more thing...

My monitor supports 640x480 and 800x600 non interlaced and these modes are no longer selectable after installing the drivers.

[Calamity]

Don't worry about the progressive 640x480 and 800x600 modes, they'll be back once the correct monitor_specs are used.

This 'magic' resolution thing has been a problem from the beginning because it doesn't seem to work for every system. In some systems, it works fine for both ddraw and d3d, in others it only does for d3d, while still in others it doesn't seem to work at all. Being the driver software a constant, the only possible variable feature that comes to my mind is the DirectX version.

However, unless you intend to use Hyperspin, you can just get rid of the magic resolutions by deleting them from your ReslList.txt file and runnig VMMaker. Then the normal resolutions will be used instead and you should have no issues.

Make sure to edit vmmaker.ini and set the MonitorType option to D9800 before executing VMMaker, that will create more suitable resolutions for your monitor.

[RetroACTIVE]

Yup... Hyperspin was-is my plan.  Im not sure what DirectX version I'm running.

I did set the monitor type as D9800 in VMMaker.ini

[Calamity]

Before you test anything else: go back to -video ddraw. Go into display properties/advanced/monitors and uncheck the option "Hide modes this monitor can't display". Reboot and try again.

Also, use Arcade_OSD to navigate and test the 1234x resolutions individually.

[RetroACTIVE]

Before you test anything else: go back to -video ddraw. Go into display properties/advanced/monitors and uncheck the option "Hide modes this monitor can't display". Reboot and try again.

Also, use Arcade_OSD to navigate and test the 1234x resolutions individually.

The dialog doesn't let me select the choice to hide...that option is not selectable.

All of the 1234x are tolerated by the monitor and work

1024x768 60p is out of range (no surprise here)
1280x720 60p is out of range (no surprise here either)

[RetroACTIVE]

I was thinking a bit more about this and I don't believe this particular monitor actually reports its capabilities.... in fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

[Calamity]

I was thinking a bit more about this and I don't believe this particular monitor actually reports its capabilities.... in fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Yeah it was just to be sure, because I've only seen the blank screen issue once, and it was because Windows was filtering some modes. If Arcade_OSD, which uses DirectDraw BTW, can show those modes, then MAME should.

So if the magic resolutions don't work in your system (I'd pay just to know why in the world they don't), you'll need to get rid of them, otherwise GroovyMAME will insist on picking them. Edit ReslList.txt, delete those resolutions and run VMMaker again.

By know you can just try that way. As soon as you want to use Hyperspin you'll need to trim your resolution list to something around 80 resolutions, using the TotalModes option in vmmaker.ini.

Hopefully HS 2 will fix this issue and we'll free to use as many resolutions as we want.

[RetroACTIVE]

I was thinking a bit more about this and I don't believe this particular monitor actually reports its capabilities.... in fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Yeah it was just to be sure, because I've only seen the blank screen issue once, and it was because Windows was filtering some modes. If Arcade_OSD, which uses DirectDraw BTW, can show those modes, then MAME should.

So if the magic resolutions don't work in your system (I'd pay just to know why in the world they don't), you'll need to get rid of them, otherwise GroovyMAME will insist on picking them. Edit ReslList.txt, delete those resolutions and run VMMaker again.

By know you can just try that way. As soon as you want to use Hyperspin you'll need to trim your resolution list to something around 80 resolutions, using the TotalModes option in vmmaker.ini.

Hopefully HS 2 will fix this issue and we'll free to use as many resolutions as we want.

Ok... let me start over... this time I will not use magic resolutions (assume for now I won't be using Hyperspin) and try to get it working all properly.

[RetroACTIVE]

Tried again... This time I turned off the 32bpp opinion in VMMaker.ini.

Now it works with both d3d and ddraw options in the same manner.  I dont get a blank screen and MK doesn't fit and pacman is too long.

[Calamity]

So are you still using magic resolutions?

Oh the 32bpp option, that one should not be used, I just included it at some point for experimenting.

Anyway, can you see if pacman is actually overflowing the framebuffer or is it possible that you have a real 288 lines resolution but your monitor adjustment is just chopping it? You can just check 1234x288 in Arcade_OSD.

Do some horizontal games look fine (toki, goldnaxe, etc)?

[RetroACTIVE]

Toki and golden axe are perfect.

I should not be using magic res anymore.  I removed the 1234x entries from ReslList and re-ran VMMaker without 32bbp and with monitor set to d9800

[RetroACTIVE]

Many games look great!

V: Phoenix, Scramble, Burger Time
H: Berzerk, Missile Command

Caveman Ninja and the MK series have the same fit problem.

I played with the monitor adjustments and I can adjust pacman to fit but it really compresses the image in other modes.  Can't really adjust MK to fit... it severely compresses and distorts the image.

[RetroACTIVE]

More experiments...

If I run MK with -resolution 399x256@60 it works great because it keeps the refresh rate at 60Hz 

If I run it without the resolution param it appears to set the refresh rate to 54.82Hz

Similar with Caveman Ninja... switchres is choosing 58Hz, when I specify 60Hz it fits perfect!

[Calamity]

Does the fit problem with mk have something to do with the one you had before when using magic resolutions or are they different issues?

It would be of help to see both logs of mk with and without forcing 60 Hz. I guess it's making it jump from an interval to another and that will help us start finding your monitor limits.

BTW, mk's real refresh is 54.82 Hz, indeed.

[RetroACTIVE]

Does the fit problem with mk have something to do with the one you had before when using magic resolutions or are they different issues?

It would be of help to see both logs of mk with and without forcing 60 Hz. I guess it's making it jump from an interval to another and that will help us start finding your monitor limits.

BTW, mk's real refresh is 54.82 Hz, indeed.

I believe these are the same fit issues regardless of magic resolution at this point.

Yeah I'm not sure what my monitor is doing with the 54.82 Hz refresh rate. Even though that is correct, it certainly appears to be problematic.

I will post a log of each case this evening.

I would love a block diagram or picture of the various pieces of Groovy/VMMaker/SwitchRes/Driver so I can get a better understanding as to what the interfaces are and how modes are determined and how the gmame chooses.  I feel a little in the dark and truly hope I'm not coming across as ignorant.

Thanks for all your help!

[Calamity]

I believe these are the same fit issues regardless of magic resolution at this point.

Well that's great. That means magic resolutions were probably working! 

Yeah I'm not sure what my monitor is doing with the 54.82 Hz refresh rate. Even though that is correct, it certainly appears to be problematic.

Probably we just need to push 256 lines modes to the next monitor_specs frequency range.

I would love a block diagram or picture of the various pieces of Groovy/VMMaker/SwitchRes/Driver so I can get a better understanding as to what the interfaces are and how modes are determined and how the gmame chooses.  I feel a little in the dark and truly hope I'm not coming across as ignorant.

I've just drawn a little diagram that might help visualizing all this (see attachment), it could be handy to have it posted somewhere.

[RetroACTIVE]

LOVE the diagram!  That helps TREMENDOUSLY!

[RetroACTIVE]

Here are the two log files... with and without the resolution switch...

[Calamity]

Fine. Let's see if this works: add these lines in mame.ini, they will override the d9800 settings.

monitor_specs0    15250-15900, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 248, 448
monitor_specs1    18001-19000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.140, 0.191, 0.950, 0, 0, 320, 448
monitor_specs2    20001-29000, 40-80, 2.910, 3.000, 4.440, 0.451, 0.164, 1.048, 0, 0, 384, 576
monitor_specs3    29001-32000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048, 0, 0, 576, 768
monitor_specs4    32001-34000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 576, 768
monitor_specs5    34001-38000, 40-80, 1.000, 3.200, 2.200, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 600, 768

Notice that they're still the same specs but for the first line. I want to force everything above 248 lines to jump to the monitor_specs1 range. Try mk, loht, 1942, etc. and let me know if it works.

[RetroACTIVE]

almost... it fits but the screen is bowed like ( ) and it doesn't look like the resolution is right... not pixelated enough (no visible scan lines).

[Calamity]

almost... it fits but the screen is bowed like ( ) and it doesn't look like the resolution is right... not pixelated enough (no visible scan lines).

Yeah, the modeline scoring system is moving that video mode to the 31 KHz range instead of the 18-19 KHz that's what I intended. I'll look for a solution.

[RetroACTIVE]

Yeah, the modeline scoring system is moving that video mode to the 31 KHz range instead of the 18-19 KHz that's what I intended. I'll look for a solution.

Ok great, thanks again!

[Calamity]

Hi RetroACTIVE,

Try mk now:

monitor_specs0    15250-15900, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 248, 448
monitor_specs1    18001-19000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.140, 0.191, 0.950, 0, 0, 320, 448
monitor_specs2    20001-29000, 40-80, 2.910, 3.000, 4.440, 0.451, 0.164, 1.048, 0, 0, 384, 576
monitor_specs3    29001-32000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048, 0, 0, 496, 768
monitor_specs4    32001-34000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 576, 768
monitor_specs5    34001-38000, 40-80, 1.000, 3.200, 2.200, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 600, 768

[RetroACTIVE]

Interesting... almost... it still doesn't quite fit... its goes off the screen on bottom and left edges.

Probably irrelevant but...

Now if I try to set the resolution with the -resolution switch it no longer works properly... (scan lines are not there and it doesn't fit right).

If I create a new mame.ini without these montior_specs I can get the -resolution command to work the way it did.

[Calamity]

Try now:

monitor_specs0    15250-15900, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 248, 448
monitor_specs1    16700-19000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.140, 0.191, 0.950, 0, 0, 320, 448
monitor_specs2    20001-29000, 40-80, 2.910, 3.000, 4.440, 0.451, 0.164, 1.048, 0, 0, 384, 576
monitor_specs3    29001-32000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048, 0, 0, 496, 768
monitor_specs4    32001-34000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 576, 768
monitor_specs5    34001-38000, 40-80, 1.000, 3.200, 2.200, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 600, 768

[RetroACTIVE]

Not yet, same issue with the bottom and right sides... but the -resolution switch works again with these monitor specs.

[Calamity]

Does this help at all?

monitor_specs0    15250-15900, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 248, 448
monitor_specs1    16700-19000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 320, 448
monitor_specs2    20001-29000, 40-80, 2.910, 3.000, 4.440, 0.451, 0.164, 1.048, 0, 0, 384, 576
monitor_specs3    29001-32000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048, 0, 0, 496, 768
monitor_specs4    32001-34000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 576, 768
monitor_specs5    34001-38000, 40-80, 1.000, 3.200, 2.200, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 600, 768

[RetroACTIVE]

Mk is still not quite (same fit issues)... albeit a bit better.  

I can correct the mk issue with the -resolution switch with these monitor settings.

Unrelated tests:
This actually fixed a problem I had with Williams games.  Defender, Joust, Stargate, Robotron etc... they were squished in the middle of the screen, almost as if the orientation was wrong.  Now they work perfect!
 
pacman, galaga are squished vertically and warped on the sides.  Phoenix, Frogger and 1943 are perfect.

Thanks!!!!!!

[RetroACTIVE]

Played a little more with various games... So so many work just fine.

Those funky games with H res around 400-500 are the ones that need tweaking.

[Calamity]

Well, I wanted to have some time to get the values directly from your monitor's manual. These values are shown in the 'Timing chart' at page 8. Here they are:

Code: [Select]

15750, 50.00, 6.72, 8.67, 7.27, 0.128, 0.444, 0.825
                                  2      7      13

15750, 60.11, 6.72, 8.67, 7.27, 0.064, 0.444, 0.825
                                  1      7      13

24827, 55.61, 3.04, 3.04, 3.80, 0.282, 0.322, 1.260
                                  7      8 31.28

31469, 59.94, 0.64, 3.81, 1.91, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048
                                  20     2      33

37880, 60.32, 1.00, 3.20, 2.20, 0.030, 0.110, 0.610
                                  1      4      23
The numbers I added below are the vertical values expressed as number of lines. You get those by dividing each vertical value by the Line Time Total (A) in the chart.

As you see, that chart describes the values for several standarized modes but not the actual frequency ranges accepted by the monitor.

On the other hand, the manual says your monitor supports a horizontal frequency range of 15-40 KHz. This multisync monitor seems to accept a continuos range, according to this description. This is not true for other multisync monitors, like the Hantarex Polostar, that has a banded range (15/25/31 KHz) so a frequency in the middle, like 18 KHz, wouldn't be supported.

Now, the chart suggests different porch and sync values for different horizontal frequencies. That's why we don't do a single 15-40kHz monitor_specs line but we divide it in separate sub-ranges where different porch values apply.

Anyway, the values suggested for the 15 kHz range seem too odd for me. I'd keep using the ones we have.

At this point, if you want to find the actual ranges and the corresponding values, your only option is by trial and error through Arcade_OSD and GroovyMAME.

I'd use Arcade_OSD to tweak one of the problematic resolutions. Try 400x288 and see if you can adjust it to a point where it looks good. We'll then use these values to adjust the corresponding monitor_specs line.