Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync  (Read 45508 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Pixelhugger

  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1863
  • Last login:March 16, 2024, 01:36:14 am
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #200 on: April 04, 2018, 07:15:29 pm »
Sorry to bump this but it's been helpful to read through all this info in one place, so here it goes...

I also have the Betson/Kortek and after years of running 800x600 decided to read up on CRT emudriver and take the plunge.

I was able to successfully install everything (Radeon HD4890/Windows7 clean install/CRT emudriver 2/vmmaker) and followed Calamitys awesome step by step instructions for the 4350. Swapping monitors went well as did VMM - generating and installing the modelines (using the Generic 15khz preset) and installing super resolutions went well too. Beautiful to see Mame running at native resolutions. At this point I was successfully at the end of Calamity's step by step guide and able to launch games at their native resolutions. Since the vertical games didn't fit (my betson is horizontal) and most games needed significant geometry adjustments I decided to load the d9800 profile in VMM and install those modelines before making the OSD adjustments per 8bitmonks guide.

However when I switched over to the d9800 preset, generated modelines and installed them, my screen went black (video black not powered off) and wouldn't come back up. I did NOT get an "out of range" mesage on the screen as I would with an unsupported resolution. I switched monitors (the temporary LCD and Betson) back and forth and got to a state where I could select Generic 15kz preset again, generate and install the modelines and the Betson monitor came back up.

Im hoping someone who has done this before me can help troubleshoot a bit.

I'm going to start over with a fresh Windows install (to avoid windows remembering previous configs and causing problems), wondering if there's something I'm missing in changing from "Generic 15" to the D9800 preset that is causing a problem? Before installing the d9800 modelines I think I recall it generated a line at the bottom of the list for a 1280 x (some number I cant recall, maybe 768) resolution which seemed high to me as I didn't think the 9800 could go past 800x600. I know my betson cant. I hadn't used 8bitmonks settings, just the built in d9800 setting in VMM. Should I have copied 8bitmonks settings over and used them from the beginning during the initial installation instead of the Generic 15?

Any help is MUCH appreciated.

Also, much appreciation to Calamity for the staggering amount of work and research put into the CRT emudriver/Groovymame project.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 11:28:18 pm by Pixelhugger »
Project mega thread HERE

buttersoft

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1758
  • Last login:March 22, 2024, 12:55:20 am
  • Is running at 15kHz
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #201 on: April 05, 2018, 03:00:55 am »
Hmmm, the 4890 has two analog outputs iirc. Did you try switching outputs?

Pixelhugger

  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1863
  • Last login:March 16, 2024, 01:36:14 am
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #202 on: April 07, 2018, 11:26:48 pm »
Hey Buttersoft

Thanks for the tip. I got it working on the other (DVI) port (vs the VGA).

OMG the games look amazing. I'm assuming its normal when exiting a game for the screen to "scramble" for a fraction of a second as the resolution switches back to the desktop res? I only ask because I'm really paranoid I'm going to fry my monitor. I remember reading somewhere that as long as the screen looks good the monitor isn't being driven improperly. *crosses fingersg

Now I need to donate to Calamitys site
Project mega thread HERE

jimj

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 116
  • Last login:July 31, 2023, 10:55:09 pm
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #203 on: January 22, 2022, 03:01:00 pm »
...
Below is a link to my mapping PDF that shows each group that I found. I'm not exactly sure of the determining factor for each group, it's not something as simple as 'all games with a horizontal frequecy of x', it appears to be a combination of the H/V frequencies. Maybe after looking at my PDF Calamity will be able to identify the exact determining factor.

Download Betson OSD Groups PDF

In the upper right are my OSD settings, the top row are my initial settings in case I needed to go back and the one underneath shows adjustments I made. On the left under the OSD Group letter is a list of 12 boxes where I wrote the H/V frequecies contained in the group and down below under each game I've put a number in parenthesis after the game show corresponds.
...
Does anyone have a copy of the Betson OSD Groups PDF they could share with me?  I don't have access to download it from Google Drive.

Back in 2004 with an ArcadeVGA 9200 AGP card I found five OSD groups.  Now that I'm using CRT Emudriver I'm also noticing a lot more groups.  I'd much rather copy 8BitMonk's work than re-discover all the different groups myself.  :)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 09:08:21 pm by jimj »

Silverwind

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 807
  • Last login:September 26, 2022, 12:49:09 am
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #204 on: August 04, 2022, 11:48:21 pm »
My man.. I think this might be it?

Betson_OSD_Groups.pdf  (attached)
https://ufile.io/c7ehgvdr  (uploaded a copy here too)


Side note.. my Betson/Kortek has been out of commission for years in a spare room.. I recently got it repaired and back in action!
At the moment i'm using groovyarcade iso with generic arcade monitor settings.

Are these the currently 'best' settings I should be using for this monitor?
Quote
from http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,117489.msg1558930.html#msg1558930

monitor "kt-2914", "Betson-Kortek KT-2914", "4:3"
   crt_range0  15250-18000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576
   crt_range1  18001-19000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.140, 0.191, 0.950, 0, 0, 280, 320, 0, 0
   crt_range2  20501-29000, 40-80, 2.910, 3.000, 4.440, 0.451, 0.164, 1.048, 0, 0, 320, 384, 0, 0
   crt_range3  29001-32000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048, 0, 0, 384, 480, 0, 0
   crt_range4  32001-34000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 480, 576, 0, 0
   crt_range5  34001-38000, 40-80, 1.000, 3.200, 2.200, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 576, 600, 0, 0
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 11:54:28 pm by Silverwind »

jimj

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 116
  • Last login:July 31, 2023, 10:55:09 pm
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #205 on: August 05, 2022, 12:42:07 am »
My man.. I think this might be it?

Betson_OSD_Groups.pdf  (attached)
https://ufile.io/c7ehgvdr  (uploaded a copy here too)


Side note.. my Betson/Kortek has been out of commission for years in a spare room.. I recently got it repaired and back in action!
At the moment i'm using groovyarcade iso with generic arcade monitor settings.

Are these the currently 'best' settings I should be using for this monitor?
Quote
from http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,117489.msg1558930.html#msg1558930

monitor "kt-2914", "Betson-Kortek KT-2914", "4:3"
   crt_range0  15250-18000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576
   crt_range1  18001-19000, 40-80, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.140, 0.191, 0.950, 0, 0, 280, 320, 0, 0
   crt_range2  20501-29000, 40-80, 2.910, 3.000, 4.440, 0.451, 0.164, 1.048, 0, 0, 320, 384, 0, 0
   crt_range3  29001-32000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048, 0, 0, 384, 480, 0, 0
   crt_range4  32001-34000, 40-80, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 480, 576, 0, 0
   crt_range5  34001-38000, 40-80, 1.000, 3.200, 2.200, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 576, 600, 0, 0

Wow, thanks for sharing that PDF.  I wasn't expecting it to be handwritten notes.  I'll post more later about what I found for OSD groups, but yes, those are the settings I used with my monitor and they worked well for me.

11AUG2022 update: I only quickly skimmed the PDF.  It looks like my settings don't match what's in that PDF, but I believe we found similar groups.  I don't know if settings from one monitor should match another monitor and I doubt we were calibrating towards the same goal anyway.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 10:16:59 pm by jimj »

jimj

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 116
  • Last login:July 31, 2023, 10:55:09 pm
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #206 on: August 11, 2022, 10:10:30 pm »
On the outside chance it can help anyone else I share my experience getting my Betson-Kortek KT-2914 monitor working well enough for my needs.

Note, the longer I spent doing this, the more I realized I had to settle for "good enough" to have all of my games easily playable.  For example, my crosshatch squares are rarely perfect squares.  So while my games may not display perfectly, every game I've played since doing this calibration looks good to me.

I documented the OSD (On Screen Display) groups I found in this spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eDrYEH2XjL1E2rASdNrrT1TtmmmoE_ZJpsVLVLlGl8c/edit?usp=sharing

Probably the biggest surprise/potentially new contribution I can make is that I think the Betson can only save settings for 12 different groups.  I believe there are 13 or 14 different groups, but after entered settings for my 13th group on 03APR2022 I noticed some of my other games' OSD settings had gone weird:
   -Some settings were reset back to defaults
   -Some games changed which OSD group they were a member of
I think I resolved my issue by resetting my last two OSD groups (Y and Z) to defaults and then never changing a setting in these groups again.  I'm fairly confident I could add one more group (a 12th group) without issue, but I haven't tested this yet.  Morale of the story, I won't add a new OSD group unless I'm sure I'm going to use games in that group, otherwise it's just not worth the risk.  Note: I originally planned on entering settings for every resolution in this spreadsheet, but since I'm scared of finding new groups I've quit entering new resolutions (which is why there are so many blank resolutions).



[My Beston calibration process]
-Open a game from each OSD group
-For a game in each OSD group:
-Run the game in GroovyMAME from the command line (for example run '.\mame donpachi')
-Go into the game's crosshatch test screen (if it has one)
-Adjust the screen using the Betson's OSD controls to make the screen look correct and maximize its size
   -Try to avoid using the right 1-3 cm of the screen, especially for side scrollers
      -This is to avoid the "squeezing on the right side of my Betson monitor (horizontal linearity) problem"
      -The easiest/best "fix" is to use the Betson's OSD controls to zoom out and shift the game screen to the left so you're not using the right 2-3 cm of the screen
         -This isn't perfect since right cms 4-5 still have some squeezing as do the first couple cms on the left side, but it's playable
         -To optimize this I usually need to shift the screen back to the right a bit to make the two leftmost columns match the width of the two rightmost columns
            -I.e. make the two left and rightmost columns equally squeezed
            -For example if left column 1 and column 2 are 1.2 and 1.7 cm wide, then I want the two rightmost columns to be 1.7 (inner) and 1.2 (outer) cm wide
         -After making this adjustment I probably wouldn't even notice the issue if I wasn't already aware of it
         -After I got in the groove I actually started checking the outer 3 columns on each side
   -Things to check (in order of importance, from most to least important):
      -The crosshatch pattern squares are true squares (equal width and height)
         -I like to hold a ruler with cm marks up to the screen
         -I measure from the inside of one edge of the square to the inside edge of the opposite side of the square
      -The game looks good while you play it   
      -The game's title screen looks good
      -The long vertical edges of the screen look straight (I just eyeball it)
      -The game's initial "Machine Information" screen looks good
   -Don't let perfection get in the way of getting it done!
      -For example in Don Pachi the game itself will look fine but:
         -Its service menu sub-menus (like "Input Check" and "Configuration") have very wavey text
         -Its initial "Machine Information" screen has very wavey text
         -Arcade OSD has wavey/slithering/shaking
         -Ultimately I decided all that mattered was that Don Pachi itself looked good while it was being played
      -Even on a CRT with no issues a flat picture will never look perfect due to the curvature of the screen
         -I.e. even without a horizontal linearity issues, the left and right edges of the screen fall away from you which somewhat distorts the image
         -Another side effect of this is that when the image is scooted over to the left (to avoid the "squeezing on the right side" problem) the  bottom left corner of the image may flare out a but due to the screen's curve.  If you use the Betson's OSD controls to fix this you'll likely muck up the display of other games that don't display their image so far to the left.  I.e. just live with this little imperfection.
-Go into the game's regular game play screen
-After your done with the in-game test then copy the game's modeline into Arcade OSD
   -Mainly do this to get the modeline info to copy into my spreadsheet
   -Note Arcade OSD will often show wavey/slithering/shaking while the game itself is fine
      -I.e. don't worry about or try to fix slithering in Arcade OSD
-If you run into slithering/shaking problem slightly moving/resizing the image will probably help
-Run the game in GroovyMAME again
   -To ensure it still looks good and to allow you go through and record each of the Betson OSD settings
-Update my "Betson OSD groups" Google Sheet with the final Betson OSD settings (see [Update "Betson OSD groups" Google Sheet] below)


I won't ever use these groups again (since I think the Betson can only save settings for 12 different groups):
   crusnusa   Z
   thegrid   Z
   topland   Y


Below are two quotes of info that helped me fix/improve games with the shaking/slithering/wavey problem:

After much tweaking I went back to using 8bit's old presets. Both the D9800 setting and the minor tweak by 8bit cause lots of what I call "slithering" with vertical games. Its when a portion of the screen sort of twitches. I find using 8bits older presets that this problem is almost completely gone with most vertical games. If I knew more about tweaking the presets I would probably have to customize my own. Seems these monitors are finicky. No two are the same. I will say that going into the defaults and adjusting at 800x600 has helped with the overall geometry.

Hey AMD,
I experienced this on my monitor as well, not sure what causes it, it's almost a rippling effect through a portion of the screen. It's not as noticeable when playing but very noticeable on the title screen and especially if it goes through lettering. I found that I could eliminate it for most games by playing with the geometry, ie. slightly moving the screen left or right or slightly reducing the vertical or horizontal sizing.


A higher level description of the Betson OSD problem  is here:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=28954.msg242630#msg242630

And as of GroovyMAME 0.246 it has built-in controls for geometry adjustment!  This is an additional tweaking rabbit hole you could fall down.  I haven't (updated my GroovyMAME) and tried this yet, but it sounds interesting.  For more details see:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,164449.msg1757710.html#msg1757710
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 10:31:27 pm by jimj »

Silverwind

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 807
  • Last login:September 26, 2022, 12:49:09 am
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #207 on: August 13, 2022, 08:29:08 pm »
Can you share your mame.ini and switchres.conf for the betson?  Thanks!

jimj

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 116
  • Last login:July 31, 2023, 10:55:09 pm
Re: Trying to create monitor presets for KT-2914 (Betson-Kortek) MultiSync
« Reply #208 on: August 14, 2022, 02:39:07 pm »
Can you share your mame.ini and switchres.conf for the betson?  Thanks!

If I have a switchres.conf I don't know where it is.  :)  I've never used a standalone switchres utility, just CRT Emudriver 2.0.  I've attached (what I think are) the important CRT Emudriver files, maybe those can help?

Regarding mame.ini, I've attached my GroovyMAME 0.239 default (original) ini and my updated "super modes" mame.ini.  I believe (guess) that "Export monitor settings to GroovyMAME" makes the changes below to MAME's ini file:
Code: [Select]
[InvaderJim@myComputer mame]$ diff mame.20220111.original.ini mame.20220115.superModes.ini
271c271
< aspect                    auto
---
> aspect                    4:3
299c299
< monitor                   generic_15
---
> monitor                   custom
321,326c321,326
< crt_range0                auto
< crt_range1                auto
< crt_range2                auto
< crt_range3                auto
< crt_range4                auto
< crt_range5                auto
---
> crt_range0                15250-18000, 40.00-80.00, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576
> crt_range1                18001-19000, 40.00-80.00, 2.187, 4.688, 6.719, 0.140, 0.191, 0.950, 0, 0, 280, 320, 0, 0
> crt_range2                20501-29000, 40.00-80.00, 2.910, 3.000, 4.440, 0.451, 0.164, 1.048, 0, 0, 320, 384, 0, 0
> crt_range3                29001-32000, 40.00-80.00, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.318, 0.064, 1.048, 0, 0, 384, 480, 0, 0
> crt_range4                32001-34000, 40.00-80.00, 0.636, 3.813, 1.906, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 480, 576, 0, 0
> crt_range5                34001-38000, 40.00-80.00, 1.000, 3.200, 2.200, 0.020, 0.106, 0.607, 0, 0, 576, 600, 0, 0
518a519,520
>
> orientation               horizontal

Let me know if you want anything else.