Jokerz! System 11 flipper not working

[zero_koop]

I'm really stumped on this one.  I'm not a pinball repair expert but I am an electrical engineer so I'm fairly familiar with what I'm looking at under the hood.  That said, I cannot figure out what is wrong with my left flipper.

How it broke: The left flipper always had a problem with sticking in the up position.  Not because a solenoid was engaging, it just stuck because of dirt, etc.  So I took the solenoid off to clean it.  This usually fixes the problem until it becomes dirty again.  But this time when I was reconnecting the wires to the solenoid I put them on wrong.  When I realized my mistake I put them on right, but the flipper never worked again.

What I have done so far: In trying to determine if the problem was the solenoid itself or something else I switched the left and right flipper solenoids.  Still, only the left flipper didn't work.  In other words, the solenoid that was originally not working in the left flipper position did work in the right flipper position so I know the problem is not with the solenoid but with the circuit.

My buddy thinks I may have broke a transistor.  He pointed me to a guide that would tell me how to test transistors and the solenoid itself.
http://hansbalk.home.xs4all.nl/rep/sys11/index2.htm#flip0
I don't know if the person who wrote it guide is wrong or I am, but I can't get anything he says to try to work.  First, he says I should read 50-80V on the flipper.  I can't get any voltage reading on any solenoid.  All of my solenoids (except the left flipper) work during gameplay.  For some reason I can't  get a voltage reading off any of them.  I checked my DMM and it works.  It can accurately read 1.5V off of a AA battery for example.

Then the guide says I can attach an alligator clip to the metal side rail and touch the ground prong of a solenoid to fire it.
http://hansbalk.home.xs4all.nl/rep/sys11/index2.htm#trans
I can't get this to work either.  I am trying this on both the working solenoids and the broken left flipper solenoid.  Neither work!

I have no idea what I am doing wrong, does anyone have a clue?  Thanks. 

[ed12]

there should be a tip36c transistor on your driver pcb
also there will be a fuse for each flipper
first what is needed is this set of answer's
dose your unit have a >eos< switch?
that is end of stroke
if not then it is a flippertronic style
now here is what u did
when u reversed the wire's
on the coil
u shot 48vdc up through the transistor
thus shorting it to ground
now if it is a flippertronic the driver will be a mosfet
next replace the plastic bushing :p-j: was talking about
to stop the sticking,u c when they stick they haul current
and more often then not after a few stick's the coil sleve give's up the ghost
because of heat...so well u are in there do yourself a fav
order 2 rebuild kit's and do them both
fix driver board and poff problem ios gone and u are happey pinball trucking
and do not forget the fuse

ed

[smartbomb2084]

Why did you need to remove the coil wires to clean the mechanical flipper parts?  That seems unnecessary at best.

Did you discover your wiring mismatch before or after you powered up the flipper?

Check for +50V or more at F6 on the Auixiliary Power Driver board.

There are NO transisitors for turn on in this flipper design just a relay on the CPU board to enable flipper ground and an OPTO Isolator on the Backbox Interconnect board for each flipper for Lane Change function.

[zero_koop]

Thanks, I'll go through all your suggestions carefully.  Unfortunatly it'll have to be this weekend at the earliest (work is killing me this week  ).  But just to answer your questions: I did power up the flippers before discovering that I wired it wrong, so it's definitely possible I shorted something there.  Yes, there is an EOS switch.  I think the mushrooming of the coil stop may be what was causing most of my sticking.  It's not sever mushrooming, but I think it could be the culprit.  But first I need to get it working again.  I'll report back when I get a chance and let you know how it goes.  Thanks.

[zero_koop]

Ok, I'm getting back to work on this.  When I left off in January I ended up deciding to build my arcade cabinet instead of fixing this problem  .  Check my signature for photos!  Now I need to fix this gosh-darn pinball machine so I can invite people over of a pinball and arcade night  .

First, if anyone new to this topic has a suggestion please let me know.  All help is appreciated.

@pinballjim: Thanks, I will check the playfield bushing and sand the coil stop to attempt to fix the sticking problem.  But first I need to get the circuit working.

@ed12: When you talk specifics like a tip36c transistor are you talking specifically about Jokerz or a Sys 11?  I only ask because you suggested that yet you didn't know if my Jokerz has an EOS or not.  This lead me to believe that you might not be familiar with Sys 11 and I don't want to confuse myself by looking for a transistor that may or may not exist on my machine.  Any advice on how I fix the driver board as you suggested?

@smartbomb2084: as I mentioned previously, I did power on the machine before I discovered the wiring mismatch.  If you don't mind (since I've had so much trouble with simple things like this in the past), tell me exactly how I check for 50V at F6.  Where do I get the 50V side and where do you suggest I touch for ground?  If I don't get 50V, what is the problem?

Thanks everyone.

[ed12]

hi
no i am clear they are tip36c
refer to page 80 of the manual
if u require it
i will up-load the pdf

ed

[zero_koop]

hi
no i am clear they are tip36c
refer to page 80 of the manual
if u require it
i will up-load the pdf

ed

Thanks, I found the page and the reference to tip36c.  I suppose I could test all 8 of them, but how can you tell which transistors go to the flippers, and to the left flipper for that matter?

Also, if you have any suggestions on testing transistors I'd appreciate it.  I found another guide, but when I tested them using the guide I wasn't getting the right response so I may have been doing it wrong or the guide wasn't clear.

[smartbomb2084]

This game is NOT Fliptronic... NO transistors in the flipper circuit.

The transistors on the Auxiliary Power Driver Board (page 80) are for solenoids.

Check F6 -Auxiliary Power Driver Board.

Use the metal plate in the backbox like Jim said for GROUND.

Probe BOTH sides of F6 for Flipper Voltage.

[ed12]

smartbomb2084

lord why did u not metion the troubleshooting guide ?
or the fact the realy is on that board ?,ya u know the 1 that control's the realy ?
huh
next time :cap's: off thk-u in advance
try this the next time
huh ed the realy :flipper-control-is-on-that-aux-board:
but they are not transistor controlled :the flipper's: ?
would make your reply a little more under-stand-able
there is 1 fuse yup
but the nick said it is good
the nick said the board was trashed
read the full thread first please
a nick here said the same thing i thought
replace it with a another 1 if it work's move on
if not refer to trouble shooting
i think that's why they put it there ?
correct me if i am wrong
thk-u in advance for the cap's and flame

ed

[smartbomb2084]

First of all the Relay on the Auxiliary Power driver board is for 'A' or 'C' solenoid selection NOT flipper ground.

The Relay for flipper ground is on the CPU board at 1J19-1 and 1J19-2 and it IS transistor contolled by Q67 a 2N4401 NOT a TIP 36C.

Man you need to learn to write legibly or find a better translator or find a forum that is in your native language....

TRYING to read your gibberish posts even gives the most patient person a headache.

What good are tech related posts if you can't read them?

[ed12]

welp
smartbomb2084
thk-u for killing a thread with .......
da the realy is for the flipper's
da da da
hear the click
the 2n is what it is
the tip's are there
turn the page put down the pipe
another thread trashed by smart asse's
if u care to look the flipper voltage is :routed: through the realay
again da
piss on me
i care less
nick with the board problem let's get back on track
i do believe a nick and i said replace the board
as repair as in the state it is in will be very hard
but if u are willing to give it a go i am here

ed

[smartbomb2084]

Man, you got a lot of nerve accusing me of smoking the pipe with that last bit of nonsense you call a post.

At least I am 'stoned' enough to form complete sentences.

'REALY'.... what the Hell is a REALY?


You know, there is an old saying that he who argues with an idiot is an idiot himself. 

So, we are done here and you and the starter of this thread can chase your tails until you are dizzy and pass out.

 

[ed12]

thk-u i am glad we are done.
now maybe we can get back to helping the nick with there problem

ed

[zero_koop]

alright geez guys. thanks for the help, but stop with the attacks.  most of what you just said is useless to me because it was written without enough detail.  but ill try to parse through it.  im going to work on it tonight.  ill let you know what i find.

[zero_koop]

Well I was able to get 63.8V off the right (working) flipper when I held the flipper down. No voltage on the left flipper. But I did notice that when I push in the right flipper I get a small spark at the flipper button and a reading of about 2V at that switch. I do not get the voltage on the left flipper switch nor does it spark when pushed. I think the left flipper but may not be getting power. How do I fix that?

OK explain this one to me:
I read 2V across either side of the right flipper button. But when I follow those wires back to the circuit board they go to J10-1 and J10-7 on the Backbox Interconnect Board. At that point I get a reading of 74.6V which is the same reading I get at fuse F6 on the Aux Power Driver board which I think supplies power to the flipper solenoid. How can two ends of the same wire read a different voltage?!

[ed12]

hi
alot of the time the molex plug :cinch-pin-style: will go bad
remove the plug from the board,and inspect the board :header-pin's:
if they are blackend then that is why u are getting the high volt reading's
they will need to be cleaned,i use a rubber to bursinsh them to clean
now  to the best of my know that should be roughly 50-odd volt's dc
chk where u are grounding your meter,also is it a digital meter or a anlog >needle-type< ?,
as far as 1 flipper working and the other not,once u have chked the connector and cleaned it ,take a look see at the eos switch

ed

[zero_koop]

The connectors look clean, no black.  So are you saying that I should be reading 50V at the circuit board pins and 50V across the flipper button?  I am not reading the voltage from one side of the switch to ground.  I am just taking a reading across the switch.

I am using a DMM.

Remember, this isn't a problem that started intermittently and then failed.  This started after I hooked the wires up wrong.  So the problem probably isn't because of dirty parts.

[zero_koop]

I wanted to add one thing to make sure we are clear.  My problem is NOT that the flipper gets stuck in the up position.  That was original problem until I tried to fix it and hooked up the wires wrong.  Now my problem is that the flipper does not work at all.

Thanks.

[ed12]

hi
page 68 show's the flipper routing
1j19 is you flipper ground point

2p8 is there hot side's
so ground to 1j19
hot to 2p8
should read :after-click: about 50vdc
if it is not there chk with ground still on 1j19
go to 5j12. if it is there then have a look see at your eos switch's

ed

[zero_koop]

I think I may have narrowed down the problem.  So if anyone wants to follow along and help, grab a copy of the schmatics here:
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1308/Williams_1988_Jokerz_Schematics.pdf
On page 84 of the manual (page 88 of the PDF) you see the Power Wiring Diagram.  In the lower left corner you see the Left Flipper Circuit.  Starting at the top of that diagram there is 5p12 pin 2 (this is on the Aux Power Driver Board which I think is "board 5") which I read on my DMM as 75V.  Then I follow the Gry-Yel wire to jumper 2j5 pin 3 which also has 75V (this is on the Backbox Interconnect Board which I think is "board 2").  Going down on the diagram you get to jumper 2j8 pin 8 which reads 0V.  So the problem is somewhere around there because if I read the voltage at the same spot for the Right Flipper Circuit I still get the 75V.  So, going back to the left circuit, you can see there is a resistor coming off of the main flipper circuit going to the Lane Change Switch.  I also get 0V reading at that resistor.  I checked the resistor and it is still providing the proper resistance.  Moving past the resistor on the diagram you get to a microchip 2u2.  I found this on the circuit board and it is a "4N25 ISOCOM I844".  My only theory right now is that this chip has gone bad and is causing a short which is drawing all of the power from my flipper solenoid.

Any other theories?  Does anyone know how I can test the chip?  Does that require removing the chip from the circuit board?  If any of that didn't make sense just ask me and I can explain.  Thanks.

[ed12]

hi
ok as i pointed it out
50 volt dc
it is clearly stated in page 88
your refernce to ground is wrong
please read my last post it is clear on the routing page 68
u must ground to the plug i talked about 1j19
this for the 50 volt rail will give u clear refernce
if u are getting 1 flipper ? and not the other
then it is by no mean's a power supply but as i stated and u answered the moulex plug,and or a bad trace to it.these must be chked first
after that go to your end of stroke switch :eos:,if it is burnt out u will not get get pull in voltage,u must ref to the point i posted on
for the flipper's..it is high volt's ie over 38vdc
it is routed through the relay as with the rest of the coil's

ed

[zero_koop]

hi
ok as i pointed it out
50 volt dc
it is clearly stated in page 88
your refernce to ground is wrong
please read my last post it is clear on the routing page 68
u must ground to the plug i talked about 1j19
this for the 50 volt rail will give u clear refernce
if u are getting 1 flipper ? and not the other
then it is by no mean's a power supply but as i stated and u answered the moulex plug,and or a bad trace to it.these must be chked first
after that go to your end of stroke switch :eos:,if it is burnt out u will not get get pull in voltage,u must ref to the point i posted on
for the flipper's..it is high volt's ie over 38vdc
it is routed through the relay as with the rest of the coil's

ed

Thanks ed.  You were right that it was a bad trace.  I was able to narrow it down to that by doing a few more continuity tests.  So when I removed the board and looked at the back it was obvious the trace had been burnt out.  So I just replaced it with a wire.

Thanks again!

[ed12]

hi
i hope it fixed all your problem's
and u are a happy pin ball jamming ?

ed