Boycott Nintendo! (Read For More Info.)

[wizkid32]

Ok, so I have ranted about my feelings in another post and will try to keep a lid on it here.  In a nutshell, Nintendo claims emulation is illegal because it is a tool for piracy¹ (in spite of court precedent), and that taking steps to offer legal ROMs would be "like taking steps to legalize piracy".  Worse, even, they offer NO WAY TO PLAY THEIR CLASSIC GAMES with the exception of the "shop channel" for owners of Internet-connected Wii's.  I am hereby starting a boycott on Nintendo brand products until such time as they change their stance on retro gaming.  Until they either relax their opinions on emulation and take steps to legalize it, or offer some other type of authentic retro game package for cab. owners, I will not purchase a Nintendo product.  I urge you to abstain from their products as well.  Also, please spread the word!

The website even has an email where you can report, "Potential Infringements".  What a joke!  If They actually listened to their fans, there would be far fewer "infringements" occurring!

¹This is highly debatable, especially if you own the original games

My evidence:
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

[Howard_Casto]

PBJ is right.  I think you are a bit confused.  That is Nintendo's "Official, Legal Stance"  you will find that virtually every other major game company has a very similar one. 

What you go by is what they actually do.  The worst I've ever seen nintendo do is politely ask that a few ROMZ sites take some first party nintendo console titles down... titles, I might add, that are released on the shop channel.

In terms of arcade roms, if that's what you are getting at...  to nintendo they don't exist.  The company as a whole has abandoned their arcade roots and pretty much considers the whole lot abandoned ware.  They allowed D2K to be released didn't they?

Their way of thinking is that the NES ports of their arcade classics are virtually identical to the originals and they are formatted to a 4:3 screen instead of a vertical one, so why bother releasing the originals?  I don't agree with that, but I can see their point.

[DaveMMR]

I don't get it wizkid.  Are they supposed to say "hey, we offer all those old NES, SNES, N64, etc. games on the Virtual Console, but it's okay if you get it for free?" I hardly think Nintendo is the only company that is protective of their property.

Expecting a video game company to "support" outside emulation and ROM downloading is like expecting a fireman to endorse arson. And Nintendo is hardly unique in this stance. Heck, Sony practically shut down businesses for going against their policies for intellectual property (Lik-Sang and the emulator, Bleemcast!).

Also, every video game company has this policy. Nintendo's was just the only one you read. If you're going to stop playing games because they're opposed to people getting their games for free, you might as well just get a deck of cads and take up solitaire.

My advice: stop reading the legalese. You'll lose sleep over it. Do what you think is right. And if you feel bad about having a few Nintendo ROMs on your computer, then spend a couple of bucks in the WiiShop or buy some games if it helps your conscious.

[Howard_Casto]

You know actually you WILL be able to get many of the games for free in the future.  Starting in Janurary you can use your club nintendo coins to purchase select virtual console titles.  Some will even be exclusive imports and custom games!

Also if you bought a 3ds last year, you get 20 free virtual console titles.

You keep ragging on nintendo for not giving away games but as far as I know they are the ONLY big company to give away games. 

I mean sure once every 5 years you might get a low budget title from m$ or sony, but that's because their online service went down or their servers got hacked and they don't want you to sue or cancel your subscription. 


I've never lost sleep over my console roms because my physical games collection is massive.  I might not legally have the right to a smb3 rom, but I've got the cart sitting right next to me, so I hardly feel guilty for downloading the rom to play on my pc.

[Malenko]

NO WAY TO PLAY THEIR CLASSIC GAMES with the exception of the "shop channel" for owners of Internet-connected Wii's.

So I cant just turn on my NES and play anymore? mannnn FS: NES and like 100 games

[shmokes]

You keep ragging on nintendo for not giving away games but as far as I know they are the ONLY big company to give away games. 

No way! After Sony's crap security let hackers get a hold of all of my credit card information, they totally gave me a few great games as an apology.   

[Mikezilla]

For a second I thought Donkbaca was the one that was gonna start this thread. 

[ark_ader]

Ok, so I have ranted about my feelings in another post and will try to keep a lid on it here.  In a nutshell, Nintendo claims emulation is illegal because it is a tool for piracy¹ (in spite of court precedent), and that taking steps to offer legal ROMs would be "like taking steps to legalize piracy".  Worse, even, they offer NO WAY TO PLAY THEIR CLASSIC GAMES with the exception of the "shop channel" for owners of Internet-connected Wii's.  I am hereby starting a boycott on Nintendo brand products until such time as they change their stance on retro gaming.  Until they either relax their opinions on emulation and take steps to legalize it, or offer some other type of authentic retro game package for cab. owners, I will not purchase a Nintendo product.  I urge you to abstain from their products as well.  Also, please spread the word!

The website even has an email where you can report, "Potential Infringements".  What a joke!  If They actually listened to their fans, there would be far fewer "infringements" occurring!

¹This is highly debatable, especially if you own the original games

My evidence:
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

Where are you debating this?  In a forum for copyright lawyers?  No you are debating this in a forum where a good chunk of the clickers here have downloaded nintendoh roms for emulators.  If you are old enough you might have spent your pocket money on the real deal when it came out, and still probably do if you are into their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- kit - minus the GameCube.

Get yourself on the news.  Go on a hunger strike, picket outside of the Nintendoh corporate building.  The rest of us couldn't give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  My bet Nintendoh doesn't give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- either, but if you are stupid enough to draw attention to yourself and get hit with some $2M lawsuit, go ahead.  Heck I bet we would all watch too. Perfect example to tell your kids of what not to do.

Go get em! 

We will be right behind ya.  Miles behind ya.   

[Howard_Casto]

For a second I thought Donkbaca was the one that was gonna start this thread. 

Just let it go Mike....  I sure am. 

[Mikezilla]

For a second I thought Donkbaca was the one that was gonna start this thread. 

Just let it go Mike....  I sure am. 

I suppose thats the smartest thing to do huh? 

[Benevolance]

I am disappointed that my original Nintendo Entertainment System died this year. Talk about engineered to fail. I refuse to buy another NES system until they design them better.

[hypernova]

I am disappointed that my original Nintendo Entertainment System died this year. Talk about engineered to fail. I refuse to buy another NES system until they design them better.

I *almost* fell for that.  Sarcasm meter peaked at the end of that post though.

NO WAY TO PLAY THEIR CLASSIC GAMES with the exception of the "shop channel" for owners of Internet-connected Wii's.

So I cant just turn on my NES and play anymore? mannnn FS: NES and like 100 games

If you were smart like me, you'd have sold your stuff loooooooong ago!

[SavannahLion]

Can someone just give me the Cliffs note? I got halfway through the second sentence and got bored.

[wizkid32]

Oh darn!  Once again you're all right and I'm all wrong.    

You guys are right, I totally overreacted.  I didn't mean so much console ROMs, but arcade ROMs.  I guess it's just another one of those issues where you (or at least I) have a fine line to walk.  I want to respect arcade manufacturer's requests (as that is what they are) that emulation not be used.  It seems that I can't oblige them at this time.  

@Howard_Castro,  What is D2K?  I guess I can see their point, but I certainly don't agree with it.

@DaveMMR,  Now why'd you have to go and confuse my furious with logic like that???!!!    My biggest problem with the virtual console is that it is for Wii only, and so not much help for my arcade project.  I suppose I had thought that all arcade manufacturers would have as much business sense as Atari and Capcom.  I was mistaken.  BTW, I only emulate something IF I own the ROM in other media, either the original or a PC package.

@Malenko,  How much help is an NES in a cab?

@Shmokes,  I had the same experience with Sony, minus the free games.  They basically told me "Sorry, you're out of luck" and moved on.  Sony is junk, IMO.  Not boycotting them, just burned...

@Ark_Ader,  Too far man!  

"1. Be nice to each other. We're serious about this one. Disagree, debate, argue at will - but please be respectful. Messages that are flame-bait, hateful, racist, or otherwise pointlessly antagonistic will likely be sent to post-hell, and repeat offenders banned from posting."

Not trying to get you banned, but that was hurtful!  No I'M not debating it.  I was merely trying to point out that it is not a clean line, that there IS controversy.  That's all I'll say on the subject.  

As for the rest of your post, others had already said that I was overreacting.  you didn't need to rude.

@Benevolence,  Talk about it!  Mine broke just under 30 years after I bought it!  No one builds to last anymore!  

@SavannahLion,  The point is that I overreacted, and that you should pretty much ignore anything I say on the topic of ROMs/Emulation Legality.   

[DaveMMR]

BTW, I only emulate something IF I own the ROM in other media, either the original or a PC package.

Ahhhh.... read the fine print (even though I told you not to).  Owning media in one format doesn't legally give you a right to it in another (even if it's an original arcade PCB).  Yeah, someone's going to be all like "but the law entitles you to a legal backup, yada yada yada" but at the end of the day, they can break your shoes for using "unauthorized backups".  If they wanted to, that is - but they probably don't. They're more concerned with piracy of their latest titles.

But Wiz - sincerely - I applaud you for trying to do the right thing. It's not so easy when you're trying to play 30 year old games, of course. As long as you're supporting the game industry by buying new titles, you can sleep a bit easier at night if you have that occasional ROM.

[ark_ader]

@Ark_Ader,  Too far man!  

"1. Be nice to each other. We're serious about this one. Disagree, debate, argue at will - but please be respectful. Messages that are flame-bait, hateful, racist, or otherwise pointlessly antagonistic will likely be sent to post-hell, and repeat offenders banned from posting."

Not trying to get you banned, but that was hurtful!  No I'M not debating it.  I was merely trying to point out that it is not a clean line, that there IS controversy.  That's all I'll say on the subject.  

As for the rest of your post, others had already said that I was overreacting.  you didn't need to rude.

What a load of crap, you are moaning about Nintendoh and their stance on emulation.  Open a book, read a newspaper, turn on the TV - any moron knows (except maybe some Mame Devs) that rom use for emulators is illegal.  Emulation is a tool for piracy.  Gee wiz.  You don't say.  Whoopie do.

Your post is completely stupid and I think you were an idiot posting it, but it is nearly Christmas so I forgive you.  Just delete all your downloaded game roms and sign up to the SOPA appreciation youth program, and I'm sure Nintendoh will send you a "Free Mario from Emulation" badge for your troubles.

[wizkid32]

What more do you want???!!!  I've already admitted that I overreacted and that I probably should have done more research before I declared a boycott.  Yet you insist that I am an idiot and my opinions are foolish.  THAT is violating #10, if you don't know it, look it up! 

Emulation is a tool for piracy.  Gee wiz.  You don't say.  Whoopie do.

So are torrents, recordable CDs/DVDs, and MP3 files.  And a hammer can be a tool for murder.  And fire can be as well.  Your point is?

I respect your opinions, but that does not mean I will put up with your insults!

[shmokes]

Why would you respect his opinions? His opinions are moronic. Without fail. There is universal consensus on this point.

[wizkid32]

Why would you respect his opinions? His opinions are moronic. Without fail. There is universal consensus on this point.

Perhaps ( ), but no one is foolish all the time.

[Well Fed Games]

I always read Ark's posts in the voice of Spock, due to his avatar, and it turns out funny. Try it. Spock rage! CHRISTMAS!!!!!

[wizkid32]

 

[DaveMMR]

Why would you respect his opinions? His opinions are moronic. Without fail. There is universal consensus on this point.

Perhaps ( ), but no one is foolish all the time.

You've met the exception to that rule.

[wizkid32]

Wow.  I guess that is the universal consensus.

[hypernova]

I figured with 150ish posts, you'd have learned ark's...tendencies.

[ark_ader]

But they still come in and test the water.

You guys make me laugh.

Boycott Nintendoh.   I think that statement alone deserves ridicule.

[Howard_Casto]

@Howard_Castro,  What is D2K?  I guess I can see their point, but I certainly don't agree with it.

There's no "r" in my name.  I have European ancestry  (Casto) I'm not related to the dictator of a small bananna republic (Castro).
Sorry I shouldn't pick on you like that, but I've gotten that a lot this week, even in real life.  I'm pale as a ghost, how the hell could people mistake me for a Castro?

D2K  is a recent, unofficial, Donkey Kong arcade sequel.  It uses the original DK roms and modifys them to add new levels.  It is sold as a conversion kit to Donkey Kong along with an optional artwork Kit. 

In other words, Nintendo cares so little about their arcade properties that they allowed an unofficial to be sold commercially.

[saint]

There's no "r" in my name.  I have European ancestry  (Casto) I'm not related to the dictator of a small bananna republic (Castro).
Sorry I shouldn't pick on you like that, but I've gotten that a lot this week, even in real life.  I'm pale as a ghost, how the hell could people mistake me for a Castro?

Your avatar might have something to do with it

[ark_ader]

I'm pale as a ghost,

So 2012 will be your year to leave the PC/Wii alone, get out of the closet and get some sunlight and fresh air.

[danny_galaga]

@Howard_Castro,  What is D2K?  I guess I can see their point, but I certainly don't agree with it.

There's no "r" in my name.  I have European ancestry 

Not sure if you know this, but Spain is part of Europe 

[Samstag]

There's no "r" in my name.

If you say so, Howad.

[SammyWI]

He's actually a character on Big Bang Theory.  He's just used to how his mother pronounces it.   HOWAD!  COME RUB MY BUNIONS! 

[Howard_Casto]

I'm pale as a ghost,

So 2012 will be your year to leave the PC/Wii alone, get out of the closet and get some sunlight and fresh air.

Nah that's not it... my primary ancestry is Scotch/Irish.  I have two skin tones.... clear and burnt like a lobster. 

[Howard_Casto]

There's no "r" in my name.  I have European ancestry  (Casto) I'm not related to the dictator of a small bananna republic (Castro).
Sorry I shouldn't pick on you like that, but I've gotten that a lot this week, even in real life.  I'm pale as a ghost, how the hell could people mistake me for a Castro?

Your avatar might have something to do with it

Yeah Shang does look a little Spanish this go around doesn't he?  I think of all the reworks of the classic characters in the latest mk they screwed him up the most, especially considering he's supposed to be "Chineese-ish"

[wizkid32]

There's no "r" in my name.  I have European ancestry  (Casto) I'm not related to the dictator of a small bananna republic (Castro).
Sorry I shouldn't pick on you like that, but I've gotten that a lot this week, even in real life.  I'm pale as a ghost, how the hell could people mistake me for a Castro?

   

Sorry!

[404]

You know actually you WILL be able to get many of the games for free in the future.  Starting in Janurary you can use your club nintendo coins to purchase select virtual console titles.  Some will even be exclusive imports and custom games!

Also if you bought a 3ds last year, you get 20 free virtual console titles.

You keep ragging on nintendo for not giving away games but as far as I know they are the ONLY big company to give away games. 

I mean sure once every 5 years you might get a low budget title from m$ or sony, but that's because their online service went down or their servers got hacked and they don't want you to sue or cancel your subscription. 


I've never lost sleep over my console roms because my physical games collection is massive.  I might not legally have the right to a smb3 rom, but I've got the cart sitting right next to me, so I hardly feel guilty for downloading the rom to play on my pc.

I have to somewhat disagree with you here. Some companies have been far more forthcoming when it comes to emulators and roms. Sega for example has been very open about using its older intellectual property in conjunction with emulators and the like. They began working on their own modified version of the old genesis emulator KGen many years ago and used it in various commercial properties such as their genesis collections.

Sega has also been very very lenient in terms of their sub licensing agreements. Many of the emulation system on a chip systems seem to be openly bundled with tons of games. One such device even allowed users to load their own roms via an sd card slot.

Yes, most if not all companies have the same exact stance when it comes to illegal roms but not all of them are so blatantly hypocritical about emulation as Nintendo is. If one is to take Nintendo's stance as 100% lawful and legal cannon across the world, Nintendo would require a license for every single console manufacturer that is currently emulated in the virtual console. Nintendo should probably mull over some of their licensing agreements and make sure that not only are the emulators licensed but that the original companies are being properly compensated for the simulated use of their "intellectual property". While so far, nobody has bothered to disassemble some of the virtual console emulation software, i can pretty much bet you that in one form or another, there is a GPL violation in there somewhere. I can't imagine that the folks at Nintendo would not be tempted to peek at some GPL code out there that took "evil" emulation authors years to produce and perfect only for them to have perfectly capable emulators in just a matter of months.

Nintendo has already been implicated in a legal situation where they are on the receiving end against emulator authors. There is an illegal wii port of ScummVM bundled with classic lucasarts games sold commercially. Atari, Nintendo and Majesco have all attempted to pass the blame to each other and have used complex non-disclosure agreements to keep things quiet.

[wizkid32]

Well, this is what I meant in my original post.  Whilst other companies may share Nintendo's "official" stance, they are a whole lot more lenient in real life.  And by lenient, I mean they are willing to cooperate with emulation-based products.

[Gray_Area]

I am disappointed that my original Nintendo Entertainment System died this year. Talk about engineered to fail. I refuse to buy another NES system until they design them better.

I *almost* fell for that.  Sarcasm meter peaked at the end of that post though.

At the END of the post?.....

[Howard_Casto]

You know actually you WILL be able to get many of the games for free in the future.  Starting in Janurary you can use your club nintendo coins to purchase select virtual console titles.  Some will even be exclusive imports and custom games!

Also if you bought a 3ds last year, you get 20 free virtual console titles.

You keep ragging on nintendo for not giving away games but as far as I know they are the ONLY big company to give away games. 

I mean sure once every 5 years you might get a low budget title from m$ or sony, but that's because their online service went down or their servers got hacked and they don't want you to sue or cancel your subscription. 


I've never lost sleep over my console roms because my physical games collection is massive.  I might not legally have the right to a smb3 rom, but I've got the cart sitting right next to me, so I hardly feel guilty for downloading the rom to play on my pc.

I have to somewhat disagree with you here. Some companies have been far more forthcoming when it comes to emulators and roms. Sega for example has been very open about using its older intellectual property in conjunction with emulators and the like. They began working on their own modified version of the old genesis emulator KGen many years ago and used it in various commercial properties such as their genesis collections.

Sega has also been very very lenient in terms of their sub licensing agreements. Many of the emulation system on a chip systems seem to be openly bundled with tons of games. One such device even allowed users to load their own roms via an sd card slot.

Yes, most if not all companies have the same exact stance when it comes to illegal roms but not all of them are so blatantly hypocritical about emulation as Nintendo is. If one is to take Nintendo's stance as 100% lawful and legal cannon across the world, Nintendo would require a license for every single console manufacturer that is currently emulated in the virtual console. Nintendo should probably mull over some of their licensing agreements and make sure that not only are the emulators licensed but that the original companies are being properly compensated for the simulated use of their "intellectual property". While so far, nobody has bothered to disassemble some of the virtual console emulation software, i can pretty much bet you that in one form or another, there is a GPL violation in there somewhere. I can't imagine that the folks at Nintendo would not be tempted to peek at some GPL code out there that took "evil" emulation authors years to produce and perfect only for them to have perfectly capable emulators in just a matter of months.

Nintendo has already been implicated in a legal situation where they are on the receiving end against emulator authors. There is an illegal wii port of ScummVM bundled with classic lucasarts games sold commercially. Atari, Nintendo and Majesco have all attempted to pass the blame to each other and have used complex non-disclosure agreements to keep things quiet.

Yes, because Sega is now a much much smaller company than they used to be and to be blunt, they need the money so badly that they will part out their ips to anybody that wants them, even if the device or company is a little shady.  That isn't being emu friendly, that's being profit friendly. 

You are making assumptions now.  There is no way of knowing if a glp liscense was violated.  But I can tell you this, I was on the ground floor of the wii hacking scene and I can assure you that nintendo's emulators are indeed made from scratch.  The n64 emulator, in particular is basically a wholely complete emulator for each chip type.  It is highly specialized to get n64 games to run on the "puny" wii specs.  The NES emulator is almost pixel perfect.... it properly emulates the flicker and slowdown, and other graphical quirks that other emulators equate to "bugs" and remove.


So while I can't prove that a GPL wasn't violated any more than you can prove one was, I can assure that these are NOT off the shelf pc emulators ported to the wii as you are suggesting.  A great amount of time and care were involved in making them.  Some of them are the finest emulators I've ever seen.  The reason they managed to get them assembled so quickly while working so well is simple...they are Nintendo.  Nintendo saves all of their hardware and software designs and they have been in continuous operation since entering the video game industry.  This is NOT the norm.  You are confusing Nintendo quality with piracy. 

Just an example of this:  A few years ago Nintendo decided to re-release the first Game & Watch device as a prize for Japan's club nintendo.  They still had the hardware schematics and original ink cells on file!  This is a cheap toy made in 1980 and they kept detailed records of it!

Now this goes for the Nintendo VC titles.  The other consoles, like sega and lucasarts have their emulators out-sourced and then they liscense the fully working emulators and games to nintendo.  Nintendo obviously has a responsibility to check for legal issues, but it isn't like they are blatently ignoring the law.  I think the problem is that the VC release of the "scumm" titles was the first time that any real money was made from the titles and thus the original copyright holders got greedy.  I remember ages ago that Scumm was announced to be a free emulator that was endorsed by lucasarts.  That is when the games were obscure relics and nobody would pay for them though.

Long Story short, you can't compare Nintendo to smaller companies like SNK or Sega or any other failed companies from the past, because quite frankly they aren't on the same level.  Neo-geo piracy, for example, runs rampant but you can't equate that to snk having a laxed stance on emulation, you can equate it to the lack of funds for fighting the infringements. 

The two companies you CAN compare Nintendo to are Microsoft and Sony.  Compared to those two... Nintendo is a saint.

[ark_ader]

It was my understanding that GPL code could be used in commercial settings, if the company used GPL code and built on top of it or extended it.  I say this with regard to router software, or net top solutions.  The requirement is that any code that is built from GPL source must be freely available.  So with the Wii, perhaps the agreement was made to supply code to the general public, which would be propriety on that platform, but was distributed or available on the company website.

[404]

Yes, because Sega is now a much much smaller company than they used to be and to be blunt, they need the money so badly that they will part out their ips to anybody that wants them, even if the device or company is a little shady.  That isn't being emu friendly, that's being profit friendly.  

At the end of the day, it makes them far less hypocritical about these things than Nintendo. Who, let's be frank here wants their virtual console to be the only retro gaming service in town.

You are making assumptions now.  There is no way of knowing if a glp liscense was violated.  But I can tell you this, I was on the ground floor of the wii hacking scene and I can assure you that nintendo's emulators are indeed made from scratch.  The n64 emulator, in particular is basically a wholely complete emulator for each chip type.  It is highly specialized to get n64 games to run on the "puny" wii specs.  The NES emulator is almost pixel perfect.... it properly emulates the flicker and slowdown, and other graphical quirks that other emulators equate to "bugs" and remove.

I was in the wii scene for a bit too

So while I can't prove that a GPL wasn't violated any more than you can prove one was, I can assure that these are NOT off the shelf pc emulators ported to the wii as you are suggesting.  A great amount of time and care were involved in making them.  Some of them are the finest emulators I've ever seen.  The reason they managed to get them assembled so quickly while working so well is simple...they are Nintendo.  Nintendo saves all of their hardware and software designs and they have been in continuous operation since entering the video game industry.  This is NOT the norm.  You are confusing Nintendo quality with piracy.  

Let's back up for a second. I never said that they were indeed violating GPL, nobody ever disassembled their emulators as far as i can remember but i would find it hard to believe that they didn't. It's a mere assumption.

However, violating terms of a game emulators license easily comes in second or third to companies violating GPL terms for busybox and Mplayer. Many of them go unpunished.

Now this goes for the Nintendo VC titles.  The other consoles, like sega and lucasarts have their emulators out-sourced and then they liscense the fully working emulators and games to nintendo.  Nintendo obviously has a responsibility to check for legal issues, but it isn't like they are blatently ignoring the law.  I think the problem is that the VC release of the "scumm" titles was the first time that any real money was made from the titles and thus the original copyright holders got greedy.  I remember ages ago that Scumm was announced to be a free emulator that was endorsed by lucasarts.  That is when the games were obscure relics and nobody would pay for them though.

Long Story short, you can't compare Nintendo to smaller companies like SNK or Sega or any other failed companies from the past, because quite frankly they aren't on the same level.  Neo-geo piracy, for example, runs rampant but you can't equate that to snk having a laxed stance on emulation, you can equate it to the lack of funds for fighting the infringements.  

The two companies you CAN compare Nintendo to are Microsoft and Sony.  Compared to those two... Nintendo is a saint.

This is just where we have to agree to disagree. Just because they are Nintendo, doesn't mean hiding behind NDA's and their own blatant hypocrisy is either politically or morally correct. I merely pointed out the double standards Nintendo holds as opposed to other companies.