SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2

[Calamity]

Have noticed since setting the V Front porch value from the 0.060 to 0.180 it fixed the credit text problem in Elevator Action Returns, but it has move the screen up on other games so i no longer can see the top white line border on the nag screen

Yes, increasing VFP has exactly that effect: moving the screen up, that's why normally that value should be set the minimum (one line).

When i have the vertical stretch set to 15 via service menu the game has borders. But with it at the default 40 I dont get any borders on the top and bottom at all its just overscanned

Alright... Let's see it this way: your Sony TV seems *designed* to have vertical overscan for 232 lines when v. amp is set to default 40.

So for these tests and for future use, you can't expect removing vertical overscan with modelines if you keep using the default 40 setting. *Unless*, you're positive you have seen 240+ lines modes not overscanned before with the *same* v. amp 40 setting: that would mean the TV is applying some sort of autoadjustment and would complicate things a lot. (maybe gong back to the default monitor_specs 0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448 might help clarifying this).

In other words, I don't consider it vertical overcan at all if you can use your service menu to reduce vertical amplitude to make the picture fit the screen.

So please set v. amp to a point where you have some borders up and down so you are positive you're seeing the whole raster, be it 15 or whatever, and keep it there until we figure out your vertical setup.

Only if after setting the TV like this, you can still see the bottom of the game chopped while having a bottom border (as you reported for elvactr), you'll need to tweak things. Possible using our fist setup (
monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448) -ignore horizontal overscan by now- use your service menu to shift the picture up to see if you can get the picture fit the screen without loosing lines on the top. Or, maybe, using the modified (monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448), and use the service menu to shift the picture down.

So to clarify, our goal is to get a combination of vertical porch values + service menu v.shift where all games are vertically centered in the screen.

This is very easy to achieve for an arcade monitor but I don't know if this is even possible for a Sony TV.

Once you get that, you'll be ready to restore the service menu v. amp to a point that fits the particular game you want to play, or just get a point in the middle where i.e. 240-lines games fit but 224 have borders and 256 are overcanned (overcan would be symmetric). Or set it up for 256 to fit but all lower have borders, etc.

If only I could mess with that TV directly... I think it'd be a matter of 10 minutes to figure out what's going on with some Arcade_OSD tweaking. It's possible that I'm just plain wrong. Thanks for keeping testing.

Just to clarify, shouldnt it be..

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.500, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

and not....

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

as my values where...

HFP 10ch 5.003
HSP 9ch 4.503
HBP 19ch 9.506

I reduced both 5.00 and 9.500 by 0.2 to reduce the borders symmetrically.

[lettuce]

So to clarify, our goal is to get a combination of vertical porch values + service menu v.shift where all games are vertically centered in the screen.

This is very easy to achieve for an arcade monitor but I don't know if this is even possible for a Sony TV.

Ok so just to make sure we want the whole display area to be visible, so nothing should be cut of from the top or bottom of the screen, for example the top and bottom white line borders of the nag screen should be visable and both equal distance away from the top and bottom bezel of the Sony?

[Calamity]

Ok so just to make sure we want the whole display area to be visible, so nothing should be cut of from the top or bottom of the screen, for example the top and bottom white line borders of the nag screen should be visable and both equal distance away from the top and bottom bezel of the Sony?

That's exactly what we want. If you could achieve that for all different resolutions (with the possible exceptions of the 288-line ones), we're done.

If you notice some random behaviour (i.e. one mode is more shifted to the top and other is shifted to the bottom) then the modeline generation model is not completely suitable for Sony TVs (that would be too bad).

[Paradroid]

I've been reading this thread with intense interest. Really interested to follow these steps with my own TVs. Unfortunately, my MAME time has been taken up with trying to sell/dump/give away my TVs. Once I get my collection down to the essentials I'm gonna knuckle down and follow this same process. In particular, I'm interested to setup by analog and digital Blaupunkts in order to find out if the analog TV behaves like the arcade monitors Calamity describes and whether the digital can compare or just has too many unusual issues. I'm also interested to see if we can come up with a logical, step-wise process requires a little less back-and-forth work for Calamity.

Anyway, continue gentlemen...

[Calamity]

I'm also interested to see if we can come up with a logical, step-wise process requires a little less back-and-forth work for Calamity.

Part of the problem is me not having experience with SCART TVs at all, so sorry if I'm using your TVs as test rats. Please guys feel free to give up when you get tired  

Well, for me there's a purpose to all this apart from having your games look fine. The modeline generation algorithm seems to work acceptably well when it comes to arcade monitors, though it definitely needs some tweaks yet related to frequency ranges and scoring. But this doesn't seem the case with TVs. The vertical centering of modes works by dividing by 2 the extra padding lines needed to adjust vfreq in each case, and adding those 1/2 - 1/2 lines to each vertical porch equally. This works for arcade monitors (at least for analog ones I've tested), but TVs, specially digital ones, may do some active handling of vertical geometry that would ruin our settings. If this is the case, maybe the workaround would be dividing padding lines in a different proportion: 1/3 - 2/3, or something adjustable.

BTW, my father has a 14" black case Sony TV stored in a room I might get for testing at some point, just need to get a cable and find a place for.

Last week I was measuring the house of an old man who has a 29" black case Sony in his living room, I was tempted to ask him to switch it on and start negotiations if it wasn't for the fact it's a 4th floor without elevator - the reason we're there is to install an elavator in the building.

[Paradroid]

BTW, my father has a 14" black case Sony TV stored in a room I might get for testing at some point, just need to get a cable and find a place for.

Nice! If by "cable" you mean a VGA to SCART, I would be happy to make and send you a deluxe, fully shielded version. PM me if you're interested... gotta have you set up properly.

Last week I was measuring the house of an old man who has a 29" black case Sony in his living room, I was tempted to ask him to switch it on and start negotiations if it wasn't for the fact it's a 4th floor without elevator - the reason we're there is to install an elavator in the building.

Install the elevator first before you start negotiations. I live in an apartment on the first floor. Our stairs take a turn half way up. I'm tempted to buy a stair climbing trolley before I completely ruin my back. Mind you, I'm getting pretty good at lugging 70cm TVs up and down between my room and the car. Feels easier than the first time I ever did it, that's for sure. It's the 32" suckers that prove problematic...

[lettuce]

This 25" Sony i picked up last week i had to carry it down 2 flights of stairs  .

I'll have some free time to crack on with getting this Sony setup with GroovyMAME tomorrow as expecting snow here so doubt ill be venturing out side

[lettuce]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

[Paradroid]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

Hmm. I don't know if that option exists but even if it did, you'd be correcting the problem using image processing. That would introduce other issues, I'm sure.

My guess is that this is really a hardware issue related to the alignment of the yoke. None of the tubes I've tried have been absolutely PERFECT in this regard. However, once you apply a small amount of overscan to the image (which I prefer since it gives the image clean edges) you pretty much disguise the issue.

With CRT technology, I think you have to limit your expectations. Otherwise you end up with a lounge room full of TVs... just like me.

[Calamity]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

CCC can only rotate the display by 90º multiples.
What you mean is hardware related, and it's possible to fix if you dare to do this:

http://www.retrovicio.org/foro/showthread.php?18608-Vendo-Monitor-MULTI-frecuencia.-NUEVO&p=181515&viewfull=1#post181515

... I'd only mess with that if you really know what you're doing.

[Paradroid]

Oh, that's so cool! I thought that those minor deviations were just something you just had to live with! I'll definitely give this a go on a Loewe CT1170 that I have that also has other issues. If I stuff it up, it'll be no great loss.

In other news, I scored a free Grundig yesterday (check my blog). Much older than my other TVs. No OSD so I assume everything is set through the trim pots lined up on the board. The service notes aren't very helpful so far but I can report that the modeline system works very well with this TV! I guess that TVs with analog image adjustment are more like the arcade chassis GroovyMAME is intended to work with. I followed the steps you went through with Lettuce and got excellent results. The only problem is that I haven't worked out which trimpot adjusts the height (wasn't game to just twist 'n' see without some indication from the service manual) but everything seems to be well centered (in both H and V aspects) after working out some values using Arcade_OSD.

My personal goal is to narrow my collection down to 3 or 4 TVs. I sold 2 today to a local enthusiast (wants to build his own cab) and gave 2 Loewes to a charity store yesterday. I'll keep a Loewe (even though the vertical line limit is low, the image is just too good to give up on for Neo Geo and CPS), a modern Blaupunkt (for playing R-Type et al) and probably the Grundig and Blaupunkt TVs I have each with analog chassis. From there, I can concentrate on making the most of the monitor specs and coming to some conclusions regarding digital processing vs analog.

My suspicion is that while the digital is convenient (all geometry can be driven using the remote control), I don't think the behavior will ever be as nice as the analog chassis. For example, on the Loewes, Grundigs and Blaupunkts, resizing the height also changes the shape of the image. This can be corrected, of course, but I suspect that it's never going to be as simple as "adjust the V size and you're good to go!" Maybe Lettuce's Sony is different but that's my prediction.

Thanks for tube adjustment link Calamity! And thank the Lord for Google Translate.

[lettuce]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

CCC can only rotate the display by 90º multiples.
What you mean is hardware related, and it's possible to fix if you dare to do this:

http://www.retrovicio.org/foro/showthread.php?18608-Vendo-Monitor-MULTI-frecuencia.-NUEVO&p=181515&viewfull=1#post181515

... I'd only mess with that if you really know what you're doing.

I did that on my very first arcade cab i ever bought, scared the shite out of me back then

[lettuce]

So do you twist the glass section of the yoke?? As looking at pic from the thread you posted about it looks like his twisting the black plastic cylindrical bit, but on my Sony there are about 4-5 tabs there???....

[lettuce]

Also whats the best method of cleaning the inside, theres a ton of dust?

[Calamity]

I just asked about this in the Spanish forum, waiting for reply. There's people in this forum too that may know how to deal with that particular tube. As for the dust, I've heard people using compressed air for removing it.

[lettuce]

I think you have to turn all those tab together, this is what i did ever so slightly but it didnt rotate the picture at all. Ive cleaned the inside, tightened the clamp back up and put the TV back together. Least the inside got a clean...whilst i was cleaning the inside i got a bit careless and got a shock off the PCB at the end of the yoke , scared the shite out of me

[lettuce]

Ok, i was messing around with the service menu of the Sony earlier on so i have the best picture alignment i can for my super nintendo. After i finished with that i decided to crack on with getting this mode line sorted out. This is my Monitor_spec line.......

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

And this is how elevator action returns looks like...



For some reason i can have the V-Size at 28 now (not the 15 i had to before!)

I will try a few other games to see if they are centered vertically

[lettuce]

Strider - Seems to be centered vertically, with slight in game borders, or though not centered horizontally, could be doing with moving over to the right slightly

Final Fight - Same as strider

Rolling Thunder - Has a larger border at the bottom of screen than the top, and still could be doing with the screen shifted over to the right

dragon Breed - can only see the top and right white border of the nag screen

TMNT- Have this problem again of the nag screen being super zoomed in so much so i can only see the center box with the text in and then when the game loads the screen is massively moved down. Have to go into mame menu and video options and change it to 'standard (4:3). When i reload the game the screen is perfectly centered horizontally and vertically.

Why does this happen with tmnt and some other games i cleared the CFG folder of all files??

[lettuce]

Have notice some very strange graphicial effect on TMNT, sprites seem to over lap the border on the left side of the screen, its hard to explain so ive tried taking a video of it to capture it...not sure if this happen on the original hardware or not.........

[Calamity]

The issue with TMNT is a mistery for me, fortunately it can be fixed through the video menu. As for the sprite effect, I think this must come from the original machine, not sure. We'll focus on that when we have sorted your geometry settings.

So I've generated the modelines for the games you reported and I think your results make sense.

Now, in order to find your values and see if this works as we'd like, please write down the service menu vertical settings you worked out for the Nintendo because we're going to need to modify them.

We need to go back this point (in Arcade_OSD):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116669.msg1246284#msg1246284

When you have that mode 256-lines mode displayed, adjust V-size and V-centre until you get a perfect fit.

Then leave that service menu adjustment unmodified for the rest of the test.

Now go back to the monitor_specs we had worked out:

monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

(just updated the horizontal values to the ones you're using now)

Then, test elvactr, strider, rthunder, dbreed (always check that the white box in MAME's nag screen).

We're only interested in vertical centering at this point.

[lettuce]

To confrim then, i should load 256x256 in Arcade_OSD anf alter the V-Size & V-Centre until it fits the screen as best it can, and then change the Vertical geometry to..

VFP - 1 line (always fixed)
VSP - 3 lines (always fixed)
VBP - 16 lines (this is the value you have to play with)

and see how low i can get the VBP??

[Calamity]

Yes that's it, though I think we already got the lower VBP, didn't we?
So this time it's just to get the right service menu values.

EDIT: Sorry, what I meant is: first, set 256x256, VFB, VSP, VBP, then adjust V-Size V-Center.

[lettuce]

Ok then, so im not actually changing anything on the PC/Arcade_OSD side then, im just changing the vertical screen size via the service menu of the TV so it shows all the active raster pattern at 256x256?? I will get the same results as i did before though wont i?...or thought with larger borders as im guessing im going to have to shrink the screen vertically more in order for it to fit the 256x256 pattern??

I mean im not going to be changing the Monitor_spec line for this step

[Calamity]

We're actually using the monitor_specs we were working on, not the one you used today:


monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

We need to service menu adjusted for 256x256 + the VFP VSP VBP above, that are the ones that match the monitor_specs line we'll be using.

These settings must not be modified. The other day I understood you were modifying V-size so what you reported as overscan might be something else.

[lettuce]

Ok then so set up 256x256 via service menu to fit the screen and then use monitor_spec 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

or

generate monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 and then use service menu to fit 256x256 on to the screen?

[Calamity]

Yes, but not *ANY* 256x256: must be the one with the settings above (VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16), you'll need to tweak it with Arcade_OSD

or

generate monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 and then use service menu to fit 256x256 on to the screen?

No, that might create a different mode, for this test you need to manually set it as explained...

[lettuce]

Hmm, ok ive just loaded 256x256 in Arcade_OSD and lowered the values to VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16, and went to see if i could get VBP any lower than 16, and im able to get it to VBP 1!!!. Info at the top of the screen is, 256   256    59.607     15.558.

How come im able to get lower than 16 now where as before the screen wouldnt sync??

[Calamity]

You sure? So did you press "1" to test? You should notice some distorsion on the top.

[lettuce]

Maybe a false alarm, the screen sync fine but when i move the screen down via the service menu the top few squares of the pattern were missing/overscanned, with the VBP set at 16 i just about have the white lines displayed with V-Centre at 24 and V-Size at 15.

I take it i now need to quit out of arcade_osd (do i save the settings??) and go straight to loading a rom??

[Calamity]

Yeah, keep that service menu settings and run the games...

[lettuce]

Ok tried the same games over again and them all seem to be more or less centre vertical maybe a slight different between the border from the top and bottom, all apart form Dragon breed which has the bottom white border missing

Have noticed one thing though as i have the screen super shrunk vertically atm, there are 3 very thin red, green, blue lines going across the top of the screen, about 1/4 of an inch down from the TV bezzel

[Calamity]

Ok tried the same games over again and them all seem to be more or less centre vertical maybe a slight different between the border from the top and bottom, all apart form Dragon breed which has the bottom white border missing

Have noticed one thing though as i have the screen super shrunk vertically atm, there are 3 very thin red, green, blue lines going across the top of the screen, about 1/4 of an inch down from the TV bezzel

Those are return diagonals, a sympthom that your VBP is too low:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/108/dsc00286ps7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/108/dsc00287qw1.jpg/

Add 0.060 to VBP to see if it fixes that:
monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

Add 0.060 step by step until you fix the issue.

Use dbreed as your test screen now.

When you fix it, load dbreed and use it to readjust V-center until you it fits.

Then try the rest of the games again.

[lettuce]

Im not sure that red, green and blue line is that, as its above the active display of mame.....



I think its always there, just cant see it as the screen isnt usually that shrunk down??

[Calamity]

Oh that's a different thing, so leave the modeline_specs as it is

But possibly do use dbreed to re-center the screen as I explained.

[lettuce]

Just via service menu yeah? Would i have to shrink the screen even more than the 15 setting??

[Calamity]

Yeah with the service menu. I think you'll just need to touch v-center one or two positions.

[lettuce]

Ah ok, interesting i have loaded Dragon Breed and move the screen up from a value of 24 to 39 but the bottom of the screen is cut off and there appears to be white dots flashing randomly at the bottom of the screen!!

[lettuce]

Or though when in the actual game it does display the whole gaming screen i had to move the screen to value 36...but there is some very small flash dot/lines right at the very bottom of the gaming screen where the lifes HUD is. The screen on the right has a rather large bow to it near the bottom. Heres a vid showing it.....

[Calamity]

Possibly try adding 0.060 to the VFP like this:

monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.120, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

However, the fact that you need to modify v-center up to 36 is more of what I'd like.

Test the rest of the games keeping this service mode settings, to check if they're centered or they're shifted up now.

[lettuce]

Adjust VFP via Arcade_OSD and save or edit the VMMaker.ini file and generate?