SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2

[lettuce]

there are several codes related to the build in chassis . try standby , remote : I+ , 5 , Vol+ , picture . if tt appears on the screen press menu .

Found the chassis its an FE-1 chassis and the code to enter the service menu is:

Turn the set on and then put into standby
Press the On Screen Display button
Press the "5" button
Press the "VOLUME +" button
Press the "TV" button
Use buttons "^"(Green) and "v"(Blue) on the remote control to navigate the service menu
Press YELLOW button to enter required menu
Use buttons "<" and ">" to adjust the selected data
Press the "MENU" button to store the data and exit

 

[Paradroid]

Found the chassis its an FE-1 chassis

Sweet! This chassis comes highly recommended.

[lettuce]

Is there really any point to altering any of the vertical geometry settings in Arcade_OSD, apart from V center if need be, as you can change the size of the vertical lines to fit your display??

If you start experiencing issues like that one with tnmt after messing with Arcade_OSD, try running VMMaker and restarting to regenerate all modelines.

Have tried what you suggested and TMNT still only displays the text window of the nag screen and the a massive black border at the top of the screen, its strange there is a slight black border on the left and side but when sprites come in from the left hand side they over lap this black border!?

[Calamity]

Is there really any point to altering any of the vertical geometry settings in Arcade_OSD, apart from V center is need be, as you can change the size of the vertical lines to fit your display??

Yes, it's very important to find the minimum vertical back porch value your TV accepts, because:

- It will allow to get higher refresh rates for the same horizontal frequency (i.e. for vertical games rotated: 1942 at 60 Hz, etc.)
- If the vertical back porch is higher than necessary, the excess will go to the upper border, shifting the screen down, so the modeline generator in VMMaker/GroovyMAME will fail centering the modelines vertically: see your 256 lines mode that is missing the bottom but not the top, that's what I mean.

In your case, 8 lines vs 16 lines is a HUGE difference, go for it.

[lettuce]

Well i have selected a res of 256x256 and im able to get the 'Vertical back porch' setting to go to its lowest value (0.065) with no display problem, but then if i add this into my mame.ini monitor_specs line when i load a game that fitted the screen fine before the vertical is now overscanned!?

It seems the lower the vertical back porch setting the greater overscan on the vertical it gives you, which is the opposite of what i want really, i dont want any overscan on the vertical

[lettuce]

Quick one, should we be leaving the 'monitor_specs' line in the VMMaker.ini file the default value?.....

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

As i have used Arcade_OSD and selected 640x480 60i (desktop res) and altered the values so it fits my display as best as possible, which gives me this 'Monitor_specs' line...

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 4.121, 4.710, 9.420, 0.065, 0.163, 0.784, 0, 0, 288, 448

i have added this to the VMMaker.ini file and ran VMMaker.exe to generate new modeline, as this is whats run as soon as windows loads right?

[Calamity]

It seems the lower the vertical back porch setting the greater overscan on the vertical it gives you, which is the opposite of what i want really, i dont want any overscan on the vertical

Well that's definitely interesting as your TV seems to dynamically adjust v-amp depending of the number of lines?

But is it overscanned or just shifted up?

If you do the opposite (increasing vertical back porch) can you make the 256 lines mode fit the screen?

i have added this to the VMMaker.ini file and ran VMMaker.exe to generate new modeline, as this is whats run as soon as windows loads right?

Yes, replace the default values with the ones you found and regenerate modelines. Use those values in mame.ini too.

[lettuce]

Well using 256x256, the highest i can go on v back porch is 1.144 an more above that and i just get a scrambled screen all the time, and i cannot get it to fit the screen on the vertical

Something i have noticed is since i used 640x480 and adjust settings in Arcade_OSD so it fits the screen as best i can, when i run Final fight now the game is overscanned on the vertical where before it wasnt!, how can this be as i though you werent able to change the overscan on the vertical?

EDIT: i think its just shifting the screen down, as i just change the vertical back proch from 0.784 to 1.200 and i noticed it was moved down

Is it possible to add a 'Monitor_specs' line to each game.ini file, so it loads that 'monitor_spec' line when loading the game?

[Calamity]

Well using 256x256, the highest i can go on v back porch is 1.144 an more above that and i just get a scrambled screen all the time, and i cannot get it to fit the screen on the vertical

Yeah, that's because your reaching your top horizontal frequency, write down the hfreq value right before this happens and use it for your ranges.

Something i have noticed is since i used 640x480 and adjust settings in Arcade_OSD so it fits the screen as best i can, when i run Final fight now the game is overscanned on the vertical where before it wasnt!, how can this be as i though you werent able to change the overscan on the vertical?

Don't use the desktop resolution for adjustments, it usually can't be edited, I'm surprised you could do real-time adjustments (that's why I recommended the 720x480 at first hand).

You're not usually able to affect v-amp with modelines, but these Sony TVs definitely do something with it, it's not the first time I've heard this but couldn't get it confirmed.


 

[Calamity]

EDIT: i think its just shifting the screen down, as i just change the vertical back proch from 0.784 to 1.200 and i noticed it was moved down

You need to test this with a 256 lines mode, adjusting your system menu so that you compress the picture vertically to get all the lines in. Then find the lowest value for the vertical porch were you start loosing lines at the top or the picture top gets distorted. That's the value we're looking for.

The aim of this is to find a value that gets all the games centered vertically.

Is it possible to add a 'Monitor_specs' line to each game.ini file, so it loads that 'monitor_spec' line when loading the game?

Of course it's possible but that's exactly what we're trying to avoid! 

[lettuce]

You need to test this with a 256 lines mode, adjusting your system menu so that you compress the picture vertically to get all the lines in. Then find the lowest value for the vertical porch were you start loosing lines at the top or the picture top gets distorted. That's the value we're looking for.

Yeah i seem to be having a problem getting this to fit in the screen without overscan, any ideas on this?...im using 256x256 in Arcade_OSD??

EDIT: i seem to be struggling getting any higher values on the v front porch, v sync pluse and v back proch, if i set them any higher than

VFP 1.195
VSP 0.120
VBP 0.179

gives me a scrambled display

[Calamity]

Well, I'll write a tutorial on this at some point. It's definitely not obvious if you're not used to messing with this stuff.

You get a garbled screen because the hfreq gets too high (you're adding too many lines). That value of hfreq is *very important*, post it here.

Set 256x256 resolution. You should use your service menu to shrink the picture vertically to a point where you can see *all* scanlines of the raster (active and non-active), even if the picture is chopped at the top or bottom, there needs to be a black border from the picture to the plastic frame. That's just for this test, after that you can set it back to its place. Have you achieved this already?

For this test, your vertical values should be set like this:

VFP - 1 line (always fixed)
VSP - 3 lines (always fixed)
VBP - 16 lines (this is the value you have to play with)

[lettuce]

You get a garbled screen because the hfreq gets too high (you're adding too many lines). That value of hfreq is *very important*, post it here.

Ok these are my settings (256x256) for Horizontal geometry......




I have entered the service menu and lower the V stretch from 40 all the way down to 15!!   in order to get the grid to fit the screen......



So whats my next set Calamity?

[Calamity]

AWESOME! I didn't think the Sony would accept 16.4 KHz, that's like having a Trinitron arcade monitor!

I have entered the service menu and lower the V stretch from 40 all the way down to 15!!   in order to get the grid to fit the screen......

Yes that's quite normal. I just wonder if you had to apply any vertical centering too.

So now, I'd try to achieve 60 Hz with that resolution.

First, try finding your lower valid vertical back porch. Start reducing that value line by line. At some point, the top of the picture will start getting distorted or compressed, or you'll see some retrace diagonals. Get the lower number of lines where this doesn't happen.

Then, unlock the vertical frequency (lock vfreq) and raise the dotclock until you get 60 Hz, in case you can't, try getting as close as possible.

[lettuce]

Yeah i had to apply a bit of vertical centering

Ok, if i lower the V back porch anymore than the 16 its already on, i lose the white border going around the edge of the active raster .

Now in the process of me raising the Dotclcok, the screen scrambled and wouldnt sync, so i had to quit out and start again. If i dont touch any of the Horizontal geometry settings  and leave them as default (but gives me about an inch black border either side of the picture)...

HFP 3 ch 3.934
HSP 4 ch 5.246
HBP 7 ch 9.184

Im able to get the Dotclock to 59.960 or 60.058 not sure if its best to have to lower or high side of 60hz??

But if i set the Horizontal geometry to what i had in the pic on my previous post, im only about to get the Dotclock to 59.758....



or though the side borders seem to get slightly larger when i raise the dotclock, and noticed it took about 3 seconds for the screen to sync as i had a scrambled screen for the 3 seconds and thought that it wasnt going to sync but did.

[Calamity]

Yeah i had to apply a bit of vertical centering

I just hope once you find your values you just need to adjust v stretch and everything is automatically centered.

Ok, if i lower the V back porch anymore than the 16 its already on, i lose the white border going around the edge of the active raster .

Well, that's fine, so 16 lines is your value.

Now in the process of me raising the Dotclcok, the screen scrambled and wouldnt sync, so i had to quit out and start again. If i dont touch any of the Horizontal geometry settings  and leave them as default (but gives me about an inch black border either side of the picture)...

HFP 3 ch 3.934
HSP 4 ch 5.246
HBP 7 ch 9.184

Im able to get the Dotclock to 59.960 or 60.058 not sure if its best to have to lower or high side of 60hz??

But if i set the Horizontal geometry to what i had in the pic on my previous post, im only about to get the Dotclock to 59.758....

Yes, that's normal. From your first picture, H sync pulse was already 4.346. That's quite below the standard TV sync of 4.7 microseconds. As you increase the horizontal frequency by raising the dotclock, your horizontal values get somewhat reduced, so you probably reached the lower limit for your horizontal sync pulse and that's why it gets out of sync. Just increase that value by one character (ch) and you won't have issues. Forget about the horizontal centering by now, we're just looking for vertical values.

Find the highest vfreq your TV can accept at 256 lines, 60 Hz is more than good, but if you could reach 60.61 (unlikely) you will be able to run frogger and such games at their native refresh.

or though the side borders seem to get slightly larger when i raise the dotclock, and noticed it took about 3 seconds for the screen to sync as i had a scrambled screen for the 3 seconds and thought that it wasnt going to sync but did.

Yes, that's normal. As you increase the horizontal frequency, the picture gets narrower. Extra lines actually come from the time saved by not drawing in those borders!

That's why in order to get the right horizontal geometry values, you'll need to use a 15.7 kHz mode, rather than this 16.4 kHz mode that we're using to find your vertical values.

[Calamity]

Remind that if you get a garbled screen at some point, you can just press "2" to exit full screen, fix the value and press "2" again to return full screen.

[lettuce]

Ok the highest im able to go is 60.371Hz anymore and the display doesnt sync

[Calamity]

Ok the highest im able to go is 60.371Hz anymore and the display doesnt sync

So the value that Hfreq has at that point is the one we need (should be around 16.5 Khz??)

We just need the horizontal values for a 15.7 kHz mode to build the monitor_specs line.

[lettuce]

I have here 16.662kHz.

Any other info u need to know?

[Calamity]

I have here 16.662kHz.

WOW. It accepts nearly the same hfreq that my Hantarex MTC 9110, but with a lower retrace time (better).

Any other info u need to know?

Just center a 15.7 KHz mode: any one with 240 lines @60 Hz could serve. Use the one with the highest resolution available so your results will be more accurate. Then post your horizontal values (HFP, HSP, HBP). That will be enough.

[lettuce]

Ok one quick question, should i be saving these setting i made on the 256x256 resolution?? As i have selected 240x256 and even if i move and Horizontal value down one the screen doesnt sync ?

[lettuce]

Ok what i did was Lock Vfreq again (should i of done that). The settings horizontal are:

HFP 1ch 1.583
HSP 4ch 6.334
HBP 4ch 6.334

I very rarely change the H or V sync pluse settings when trying to get the picture to feel the display, im not sure what it does!?. I know HBP increase the screen on the left and HFP increase the screen on the right, just not sure what HSP or VSP does??

[Calamity]

Ok what i did was Lock Vfreq again (should i of done that). The settings horizontal are:

HFP 1ch 1.583
HSP 4ch 6.334
HBP 4ch 6.334

Those values aren't good ones. By 240 I meant lines. 240x256 is too low for getting accurate values.

Go for the highest horizontal resolution at 15.7 kHz. Do you have any 720x480@60i or something similar?

Think the horizontal sync pulse should be around 4.7 microseconds.

I very rarely change the H or V sync pluse settings when trying to get the picture to feel the display, im not sure what it does!?. I know HBP increase the screen on the left and HFP increase the screen on the right, just not sure what HSP or VSP does??

Yes the porches have to do with the borders. The sync pulses control the time the beam uses to return to its place, vertically and horizontally. We shouldn't increase this value artificially as it would make the left / top border grow, but if we set it too low the TV won't be able to sync.

[Calamity]

Ok one quick question, should i be saving these setting i made on the 256x256 resolution?? As i have selected 240x256 and even if i move and Horizontal value down one the screen doesnt sync ?

You don't need to save anything, we're just testing. After we get the right values we'll recalculate everything with those.

[lettuce]

OK 720x480 60i...........

HFP 8ch 4.124
HSP 9ch 4.639
HBP 17ch 8.763

I did actually save the values we were testing on the 256x256 resolutions does this matter?

[Calamity]

Fine! So these are your settings:

vmmaker.ini: monitor_specs_0 = "15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.120, 4.640, 8.760, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448"
mame.ini: monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.120, 4.640, 8.760, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Run VMMaker with those settings and restart. Then try GroovyMAME. It doesn't matter if you saved anything, it's going to be rewritten by doing this.

Now, I don't know if modes will be automatically centered (*EDIT* VERTICALLY I mean) or not. If the Sony behaves like a real arcade monitor, they should be centered. This means that once you adjust one of them through service menu, the others will be centered too. Only vertical amplitude should need to be adjusted.

But if it does things different than an arcade monitor, then you may need re-center the modes slightly using your service menu.

[lettuce]

Cool, cheers for taking the time to help with this Calamity! I'll give it ago and report back tomorrow!

[lettuce]

Ok have just tried a few games, and i think the sony does centre vertically.....as im not getting like the white line border on the nag screen for say the left, top and right of the border but the bottom is off the screen, if the game has overscan then both the top and bottom white border lines will not be visable....if that makes sense!?

Have notice that some games will fill the screen horizontally then others do not!, and for the ones that do not they are not centered, but using the in game  'slider controls' menu you can move the display over (with the screen horiz position option) until it is centered so thats not a massive problem. Should all game ideally fill the screen horizontally and be centered??

Have noticed in the 'slider controls' menu there is also a 'Screen Vert Stretch' option which allows you to shrink the screen ao games like R-Type fit the display!!, but it seems to produce some strange compression effect ie bits of text missing, is this fixable??

Also One of my fav games, Elevator Action Returns has a fair bit of over scan vertically  . To be honest i would rather not have to mess about with the service menu on the TV so is there away to get these games that have large overscan and vertical games to fit my display, and if so what side effects does this cause GroovyMAME?

[Calamity]

Well I'm certainly confused about your results. Let us take it in parts.

You should get the RIGHT and LEFT white borders of the nag screen for ALL resolutions. If this is not the case, you need to increasy HFP and HBP slightly, like this: 4.320, 4.640, 8.960

Resolutions should be more ore less centered horizontally, but there will always be some variation. This is due to rounding issues because we work with blocks of 8 pixels (hardware limitation). So this is more obvious with low resolutions. I'm talking or differences of 0.5-1.0 cm.

(horizontal scaling of resolutions provides more accure geometry but this not easy to achieve by now).

I serioulsy doubt you can center a game horizontally without loosing pixels on one side by using MAME slider controls, unless it's a game like mslug doesn't fill the screen "by design" (have a built-in border).

Ok, let's focus on the vertical issue. Are you sure already that your TV doesn't perform any automatic vertical amplitude adjustment?

The fact that Elevator Action Returns, which uses 320x232 is vertically overscanned is really confusing. 232 lines should have black borders on the top and botton! Did you get this game to fit the screen before, I mean with the same service menu setup.

Vertical amplitude or overscan shouldn't be different for the same resolution depending on the monitor_specs setup, if this is the case: the TV is doing something with our modes. Probably there's some PAL/NTSC autoadjustment screwing things.

If you use the service menu to center vertically your 256x256 resolution and adjust vertical amplitude to make it fill the screen, and you run Elevator Action Returns right after that, the 320x232 resolution should be still centered vertically with black borders up and down. Is this the case??

[Calamity]

Have noticed in the 'slider controls' menu there is also a 'Screen Vert Stretch' option which allows you to shrink the screen ao games like R-Type fit the display!!, but it seems to produce some strange compression effect ie bits of text missing, is this fixable??

Oh come on that's crappy picture stretching, it can't get fixed  

If you're going that way to get 256+ lines games fit the screen without adjusting from service menu, I'd rather use interlaced resolutions and stretch the picture.

[lettuce]

Well I'm certainly confused about your results. Let us take it in parts.

You should get the RIGHT and LEFT white borders of the nag screen for ALL resolutions. If this is not the case, you need to increasy HFP and HBP slightly, like this: 4.320, 4.640, 8.960

Yeah i can see the right and left white borders of all games i have tried so far!

Resolutions should be more ore less centered horizontally, but there will always be some variation. This is due to rounding issues because we work with blocks of 8 pixels (hardware limitation). So this is more obvious with low resolutions. I'm talking or differences of 0.5-1.0 cm.

Some game were defo off center horizontally, one game that i remember was robocop and rolling thunder, there was a larger border on the right than on the left and these games dont fill the screen horizontally.

I serioulsy doubt you can center a game horizontally without loosing pixels on one side by using MAME slider controls, unless it's a game like mslug doesn't fill the screen "by design" (have a built-in border).

Well the game i centered (horizontally) with the mame menu was Robocop, and it wasnt cutting the picture off at all it was just moving it across the screen with no loss of pixels

Ok, let's focus on the vertical issue. Are you sure already that your TV doesn't perform any automatic vertical amplitude adjustment?

Im not sure...i wouldnt even know how to find this out??

The fact that Elevator Action Returns, which uses 320x232 is vertically overscanned is really confusing. 232 lines should have black borders on the top and botton! Did you get this game to fit the screen before, I mean with the same service menu setup.

I hadnt gotten around to trying this game before hand so i dont know. But there is defo no borders at the top and bottom, the overscan is that bad i can just about see the top of the 'CREDIT' text in the bottom right hand corner of the screen!. This wouldnt be to with me returning the vertical stretch on the TV service menu back to the value of 40 that it was previous to us testing...where i had to turn it down to a value of 15 so the 256x256 Arcade_OSD raster pattern would fit the screen???

If you use the service menu to center vertically your 256x256 resolution and adjust vertical amplitude to make it fill the screen, and you run Elevator Action Returns right after that, the 320x232 resolution should be still centered vertically with black borders up and down. Is this the case??

Ok have selected 256x256 in Arcade_OSD decrease the vertical stretch from 40 to 15 and centred the picture so it fits the raster pattern on the display. When i run Elevator Action Returns there is indeed borders (about 3/4 inch) at the top and bottom of the screen....BUT i have noticed that even though there is a border at the bottom of the screen the 'Credit' text is partially missing!, the bottom part of the text has been cut off!!?

[Calamity]

Well the game i centered (horizontally) with the mame menu was Robocop, and it wasnt cutting the picture off at all it was just moving it across the screen with no loss of pixels

I see... That seems that it's not picking the right resolution. Robocop uses 256x240, you can dig in the logs to see what resolution it's picking (or just post it here)

Ok have selected 256x256 in Arcade_OSD decrease the vertical stretch from 40 to 15 and centred the picture so it fits the raster pattern on the display. When i run Elevator Action Returns there is indeed borders (about 3/4 inch) at the top and bottom of the screen....BUT i have noticed that even though there is a border at the bottom of the screen the 'Credit' text is partially missing!, the bottom part of the text has been cut off!!?

Weird...

So can you make the Credit text appear by using yout service menu?
Try increasing the VFP: monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.120, 4.640, 8.760, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Ok ill try that one thing i have noticed, i just loaded up Arcade_OSD and slected 720x480 and noticed that the horizontal was overscanned! Now am i right in say that we also want a little bit of black border between the white outline of the raster pattern and the frame of the TV??? These are the new vaules for the horizontal.....

HFP 10ch 5.003
HSP 9ch 4.503
HBP 19ch 9.506

I must of selected the horizontal value in the service menu when i was trying to get a good display for the Super Nintendo the other night 

[Calamity]

Now am i right in say that we also want a little bit of black border between the white outline of the raster pattern and the frame of the TV???

Yeah a prefer to leave a little bit of border because the modeline generator has a tolerance of 0.2 microseconds so if you're reference values are perfectly border-less you'll have a slight overscan for some modes.

I must of selected the horizontal value in the service menu when i was trying to get a good display for the Super Nintendo the other night 

Maybe.

[lettuce]

Ok so what Monitor_specs line should i used taking into consideration the new horizontal values i posted above?

I tried to increase the Vertical stretch via the service menu to see if it would make the rest of the 'credit' text appear in Elevator Action Returns but it didnt...maybe its like that on the real machine?, as the bottom white border of the nag screen on the games load up was a good 1/2-3/4 inch up the screen!!

Remember that problem i was having with TMNT the other day, in that the nag screen was really zoomed in and i was missing a large chunk on the bottom of the screen, well i got to the bottom of this. In the mame menu in 'Video Options' at the top of that menu there is...

Upright Artwork
Standard (4:3)
Pixel Aspect (16:15)
Cocktail

i selected 'Standard (4:3)', and the game was correctlu display!. Now i dont have any bezzel artwork in any of the folders within mame and in the mame.ini file none of these artwork options are enabled! Robocop was one game that i had to do this for also! After i quit the robocop, the dos window report a few line of info for robocop...

c:\mame\mame robocop
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (351x367@57.39)->(351x367@57.39)->(351x367@57.39)
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)
Average speed: 98.94% (136 seconds)

Is this something Groovymame is doing that it should be?

[Calamity]

351x367@57.39 there it is

Enter the cfg folder and delete everything there (robocop.cfg in special).

There's where all the video distorting crap is stored.

I tried to increase the Vertical stretch via the service menu to see if it would make the rest of the 'credit' text appear in Elevator Action Returns but it didnt...maybe its like that on the real machine?, as the bottom white border of the nag screen on the games load up was a good 1/2-3/4 inch up the screen!!

Oh yes that is possibly the issue. Try forcing the 320x240@60 resolution with an .ini file. Taito F3 games probably use more than one resolution?

Try these new settings:

monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Right ive deleted everything in the cfg folder in mame, i have just loaded robocop and the nag screen is super zoomed in again!!

This is the Monitor_specs line i have now....

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

With the new 0.180 value you suggested the credit text on elevator action returns in now visable!!  , but noticed since i added my new horizontal values theres 1/4 inch borders either side of the picture now where as before it filled the screen completely, also there is stil slight overscan, can only see bottom half of the score at the top of the screen and top half of the credit text at the bottom of the screen. From what your saying there should be borders at the top and bottom for this game??

Also Robocop still has a good 1/2 inch border either side of the screen

[Calamity]

For the robocop and such issues: make a new empty folder and place groovymame.exe inside. Run groovymame -cc to create mame.ini and start again. That's the only way to be sure everything is fine.

From what your saying there should be borders at the top and bottom for this game??

Yes, can you still see the borders with the v. stretch value in your service menu set to 15?
So you mean the picture is cropped up and down but you still have borders? (this would never happen with an arcade monitor, it seems a TV specific issue)

Try increasing the vertical porch values by 0.60. Also reduce the horizontal a little bit:

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Have noticed since setting the V Front porch value from the 0.060 to 0.180 it fixed the credit text problem in Elevator Action Returns, but it has move the screen up on other games so i no longer can see the top white line border on the nag screen

For the robocop and such issues: make a new empty folder and place groovymame.exe inside. Run groovymame -cc to create mame.ini and start again. That's the only way to be sure everything is fine.

From what your saying there should be borders at the top and bottom for this game??

Yes, can you still see the borders with the v. stretch value in your service menu set to 15?
So you mean the picture is cropped up and down but you still have borders?

Try increasing the vertical porch values by 0.60. Also reduce the horizontal a little bit:

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

When i have the vertical stretch set to 15 via service menu the game has borders. But with it at the default 40 I dont get any borders on the top and bottom at all its just overscanned

Just to clarify, shouldnt it be..

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.500, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

and not....

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

as my values where...

HFP 10ch 5.003
HSP 9ch 4.503
HBP 19ch 9.506