SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2

[lettuce]

Ok like Paradroid's thread i have got 2 PAL Scart CRT TV's, Sharp 21HT15H & Bush RF2185NTXSIL/A, the bush uses a beko chassis not sure on the sharp.

Im using windows xp 64bit and have a ATI x600 card, i have done a freshing install of windows and installed the CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers.

I Have edited the VMMaker.ini file and only changed the, "Mame.exe" path, "Mame.ini" path, "VerticalAspect" to 4:3 and "MonitorType" to Custom.

I have run VMMaker.exe and it has generated 120 mode line and missed none.

Now this is where i need some guidance, i havent touched the MAME ini file yet what settings do i need to change in that for my setup?, also should the "MonitorType" in the VMMAker.ini file be set to something else other than custom?

I have noticed that the info screen when loading a rom seems compressed/shrunk as its not easy to read, is grooymame doing something it should?, also i have a fair bit of over scan going on aswell, this is using the Sharp TV at the moment. I have attached the debug file.

Also have noticed that while the Sharp TV displays windows in 640x480 fine, the BUSH TV however doesnt..........



After a while the screen will start scrolling diagionally, but when switching to a mame rom the display is fine!. Is this to do with the  CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers and some resolutuions that VMMaker as made or is it the scart cable?

[Calamity]

Now this is where i need some guidance, i havent touched the MAME ini file yet what settings do i need to change in that for my setup?, also should the "MonitorType" in the VMMAker.ini file be set to something else other than custom?

In mame.ini, you can just leave the monitor options as cga, and add this line:

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

... so you'll have the same settings in mame.ini and vmmaker.ini (that's the default "CUSTOM" line defined)

I have noticed that the info screen when loading a rom seems compressed/shrunk as its not easy to read, is grooymame doing something it should?, also i have a fair bit of over scan going on aswell, this is using the Sharp TV at the moment. I have attached the debug file.

Try those resolutions individually in Arcade_OSD to check the geometry. You can also find your right horizontal geometry values there to remove overscan.

Also have noticed that while the Sharp TV displays windows in 640x480 fine, the BUSH TV however doesnt..........



After a while the screen will start scrolling diagionally, but when switching to a mame rom the display is fine!. Is this to do with the  CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers and some resolutuions that VMMaker as made or is it the scart cable?

That looks like a horizontal frequency out of range issue, probably that TV requires extrictly either PAL or NTSC frequencies. Open Modeline.txt and grab the modeline corresponding to 640x480@60, paste it here so we can confirm that.

[lettuce]

In mame.ini, you can just leave the monitor options as cga, and add this line:

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

... so you'll have the same settings in mame.ini and vmmaker.ini (that's the default "CUSTOM" line defined)

So i should leave "MonitorType" in VMMaker as Custom then and just change it to cga in the mame ini file?

Do i also need to add that monitor_specs_0 line to the VMMaker.ini file aswell?

Try those resolutions individually in Arcade_OSD to check the geometry. You can also find your right horizontal geometry values there to remove overscan.

Ok i have loaded up Arcade_OSD, have selected the screen res 384x224 then press enter to view fullscreen but Arcade_OSD crashes any ideas why this is?

That looks like a horizontal frequency out of range issue, probably that TV requires extrictly either PAL or NTSC frequencies. Open Modeline.txt and grab the modeline corresponding to 640x480@60, paste it here so we can confirm that.

have attached my whole modeline.txt file, have noticed that it doesnt have an 800x600 screen res and jumps from 792x592 to 1280x240 why is this. As if i use quickres tool 800x600 is in the list but if i select it i lose singal on my TV, i though CRT Tv's could do up to 1024x768 interlaced?, can TV's do 800x600 progressivly or is that res interlaced aswell usually?

Have noticed that windows has selected the TV as default monitor but it has selected the refresh rate a 200Hz, should this be left at 200hz or shouldi change it to 60hz??

[Paradroid]

Ok like Paradroid's thread i have got 2 PAL Scart CRT TV's, Sharp 21HT15H & Bush RF2185NTXSIL/A

Fun times ahead! Perhaps a little frustration along the way too…

I have noticed that the info screen when loading a rom seems compressed/shrunk as its not easy to read, is grooymame doing something it should?

Remember that once you launch a game in MAME, the display will switch to the game's native resolution. Since some of these resolutions will be very low, the MAME UI text is gonna look pretty rough a lot of the times. The fonts look nice at 640×480 but pretty nasty at 320×240. That's normal. Also, when a game exits to the MAME menu, you'll still be in the resolution from the game you just played.

, also i have a fair bit of over scan going on aswell, this is using the Sharp TV at the moment. I have attached the debug file.

You're going to need to Google for the service manuals for your TVs. Sometimes these are easy to find, sometimes not. There are some amazing resources out there, huge repositories of info on all types and brands of TVs. Once you have a PDF of the service manual, you'll need to follow the steps to get into the Service Menu. Each manufacturer does this in a slightly different way e.g. you could navigate the Loewe Service Menus without consulting the manual but for the Sony KV-HR32M31 that I had, it was extremely complex and hard to understand.

You'll need to look for the parameters with names such as "Height" or "V-Amp", "Width" or "H-Amp", etc. Those settings will correct your underscan/overscan. Then, you'll usually have some parameters that adjust the shape of the image. If your TV was well designed and still in good condition, you should be able to get the image looking very close to PERFECT if you have the patience. It'll make you realise how lazy some of those arcade game technicians were back in the day.

Oh, if you get to the Service Menu, make sure you right down ALL the current settings before you start experimenting. Trust me, it'll save you some heart ache later on.

[lettuce]

Cheers Paradroid, have tried looking for the service code of the Bush, but cant find one anywhere . With adding the modeline:

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

to the MAME.ini file then the display is more or less perfect with no over scan now, but the top and bottom of the screen has a very slight boarder now, what parts of the monitor_spec line control the vertical stretch?

[Calamity]

So i should leave "MonitorType" in VMMaker as Custom then and just change it to cga in the mame ini file?

Do i also need to add that monitor_specs_0 line to the VMMaker.ini file aswell?

In your case it's enough to add it to mame.ini

Ok i have loaded up Arcade_OSD, have selected the screen res 384x224 then press enter to view fullscreen but Arcade_OSD crashes any ideas why this is?

  I need to figure out why this silly program still crashes in some systems...

have attached my whole modeline.txt file, have noticed that it doesnt have an 800x600 screen res and jumps from 792x592 to 1280x240 why is this. As if i use quickres tool 800x600 is in the list but if i select it i lose singal on my TV, i though CRT Tv's could do up to 1024x768 interlaced?, can TV's do 800x600 progressivly or is that res interlaced aswell usually?

800x600 is not created as it falls out the defined monitor specs (=usual specs for CRT TVs). See how 792i is only possible because it's 50Hz. Don't use the resolutions labelled as 'native', they are created by the driver, that 800x600 progressive resolution you're testing might easily be 38 kHz (!!).

Have noticed that windows has selected the TV as default monitor but it has selected the refresh rate a 200Hz, should this be left at 200hz or shouldi change it to 60hz??

Yep, just ignore that.

I'd tell you to use Arcade_OSD in order to set the resolution for your desktop, provided it didn't crash.

to the MAME.ini file then the display is more or less perfect with no over scan now, but the top and bottom of the screen has a very slight boarder now, what parts of the monitor_spec line control the vertical stretch?

Sounds good.

There's no way of correcting vertical amplitude by software, that's a limitation of CRT technology. You'll need to access your service menu in order to adjust that.

[lettuce]

Yep, just ignore that.

I'd tell you to use Arcade_OSD in order to set the resolution for your desktop, provided it didn't crash.

Yeah just seems to crash all the time so can set it up with Arcade_OSD

Sounds good.

There's no way of correcting vertical amplitude by software, that's a limitation of CRT technology. You'll need to access your service menu in order to adjust that.

Oh ok, i thought it would be possible as when i added the monitor_specs line (monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448) to the mame.ini file to got reed of the overscan i originally had at the top and bottom of the screen, i though it might be possible to have tweaked one of the values to add just a slight over scan?

So i dont need to change any other settings in the mame.ini file other than the monitor type 'CGA'?

[Calamity]

So i dont need to change any other settings in the mame.ini file other than the monitor type 'CGA'?

Just that and the monitor_specs line.

You can remove horizontal overscan with monitor_specs line, but not vertical.

[lettuce]

So i dont need to change any other settings in the mame.ini file other than the monitor type 'CGA'?

Just that and the monitor_specs line.

You can remove horizontal overscan with monitor_specs line, but not vertical.

Ok thanks.

Regarding the Bush TV not display a correct picture, this has now been sorted by changing the refresh rate of windows from the 200hz it was set at to 60hz. Strange that the Sharp TV didnt have a problem displaying a picture in windows at the 200hz but the Bush did.

Also i have noticed that the TV has a sort of shimmering effect to it, now when i built a cab years ago that had a scart tv in i was using a ArcadeVGA card from Ultimarc and had the shame shimmering effect, but in install the TriSync config utility that it on the ultimarc sit sorted this out. Would it be safe to use this in conjuction with the CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers to see if it helps?

Have you seen the arcadeperfect program on the ultimarc site,

http://www.ultimarc.com/arcadeperfect.html

would this help with the vertical scan?

[Calamity]

If I get you right the shimmering effect is due to interlacing, and you can't remove it. Just use progressive modes for your games. The tri-sync utility won't help as your TV is std-res, apart from the fact that it could mess with the driver's registry.

The Arcadeperfect utility only works with the AVGA 3000 and will be tied to the same limitations because these are inherent to CRT technology.

[lettuce]

If I get you right the shimmering effect is due to interlacing, and you can't remove it. Just use progressive modes for your games. The tri-sync utility won't help as your TV is std-res, apart from the fact that it could mess with the driver's registry.

The Arcadeperfect utility only works with the AVGA 3000 and will be tied to the same limitations because these are inherent to CRT technology.

The 'shimmering' effect is only noticeable when in windows, i dont get this when playing games.

It looks like a spoke too soon when saying i thought i had the Bush TV sorted out, it would seem that i get the same garbled screen when i try and play any vertical games (Donkey Kong, Don Donpatchi, raiden) Any ideas why this is?

So the monitor specs line (15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448) is just a general setting for TV's, i cant find a line that is specific to my Sharp or Bush TV??

[Calamity]

The 'shimmering' effect is only noticeable when in windows, i dont get this when playing games.

Yes, then it's the interlace effect, completely normal.

It looks like a spoke too soon when saying i thought i had the Bush TV sorted out, it would seem that i get the same garbled screen when i try and play any vertical games (Donkey Kong, Don Donpatchi, raiden) Any ideas why this is?

I thought the problem with the Bush TV was with interlaced modes but it may be related to custom refresh rates. Try limiting the lower refresh rate with this line:

monitor specs0  15625-16200, 58.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

There's no specific settings for your TV yet, you're the first one to test!

[lettuce]

Cheers, i shall try that modeline. Well i was able to get a display in windows on the BUSH TV when i changed the windows refresh rate from 200Hz to 60Hz, but when i loaded a few vertical games i had the same display problems as pictured above. I have also noticed that mame must be doing something inbetween the start of the rom loading and the 'nag' screen as i can see this same distorted display effect on the black screen that comes up before the nag screen, but when the nag screen displays the display is fine. Can can upload a video to better explain it if you woudl like!?

This is all on the BUSH TV by the way, the Sharp TV seems as good as gold atm, apart from the very slight underscan on the vertical shift

Can you explain to me what each section of the modeline is regarding to, i know now that the 2nd section of the modeline is lowest and highest refresh rate for the display (is this vertical or horizontal?), but what are the other 11 sections?

[lettuce]

Ok i tried the revised modeline and it didnt seem to solve the problem . Have noticed i get the same problem when booting the PC and only gets a picture when the windows XP loading screen appears, so im guessing whatever refresh rate the motherboard boot screen and dos screen are in this BUSH TV doesnt like also?

[Calamity]

Try with this one:

monitor_specs0 15625-15800, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

BTW:

; monitor_specs_0-6 = "HfreqMin-HfreqMax, VfreqMin,VfreqMax, HFrontPorch, HSyncPulse, HBackPorch, VfrontPorch, VSyncPulse, VBackPorch, HSyncPol, VSyncPol, ActiveLinesLimit, VirtualLinesLimit"
;
;    * HfreqMin-HfreqMax: Minimum and maximum horizontal frequency, in Hz. Defines the range of horizontal frequencies the monitor is capable to sync.
;       The higher the horizontal frequency, the higher the vertical resolution available for the same vertical refresh.
;       The higher the horizontal frequency, the higher the vertical refresh available for the same vertical resolution.
;       The higher the horizontal frequency, the lower the horizontal amplitude of active video (narrower picture).
;
;   * VFreqMin-VfreqMax: Minimum and maximum vertical frequency, in Hz, Defines the range of vertical frequencies the monitor is capable to sync.
;
;   * HFrontPorch, HSyncPulse, HBackPorch: Horizontal timing and geometry, values in µs
;
;   * VfrontPorch, VSyncPulse, VBackPorch: Vertical timing and geometry, values in ms
;
;   * HSyncPol,VSyncPol: polarities, not in use! defaults to negative.
;
;   * ActiveLinesLimit: Vertical resolutions until ActiveLinesLimit value included, are generated as progressive, regardless the possibility
;                           of obtaining the required vertical refresh value.
;
;   * VirtualLinesLimit: Vertical resolutions above ActiveLinesLimit and below VirtualLinesLimit are virtualized, that is, an interlaced resolution
;                            bigger that the native one is generated, with the right refresh, and "hardware stretch" is applied.
;                            Vertical resolutions above VirtulaLinesLimit are generated as interlaced, without any stretching.

[lettuce]

Ok ill give that a go tomorrow as its getting late now. Thanks for the on going support

[lettuce]

Ok that modeline stop the messed up display, but the game ive tried (Donkey Kong 3) is now displayed in a small box in the centre of the screen

EDIT: Also noticed that Dragon Breed (horizontal game) is also in a small screen

[Calamity]

logs please 

[lettuce]

Ok, turned the PC back on to get the log files now both of the games display fullscreen!, not sure why they didnt before hand. Only thing is that they have a fair bit of overscan on the vertical espcially the vertical games

[Calamity]

Probably you needed to restart in case you recalculated modelines with VMMaker.

Now... it seems the issue was with the HfreqMax value. So 16200 was to high for your TV. Anyway, try finding the highest value your TV is happy with, testing:

monitor_specs0 15625-15900, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

... and so on. The highest that value, the closer you'll get to 60 Hz in many vertical games.

As for the vertical overscan, it's normal, as TVs are usually adjusted for less than 256. You'll need to access your service menu to fix that.

[lettuce]

Ok will do, also noticed that the rotation of the screen was a bit off and wasnt straight along the bottom and top, can this be altered via modeline?

[Calamity]

Ok will do, also noticed that the rotation of the screen was a bit off and wasnt straight along the bottom and top, can this be altered via modeline?

I'm afraid not, that's a harware issue.

[lettuce]

Just scored my first 25" Sony Triniton TV for the grand sum of 99p 

Ill post some results once i get it, its a dark grey case not the newer silver case so hopefully wont be doing any type of nusty processing in the background or have a digital chassis

[Paradroid]

Awesome! Looking forward to hearing about how it performs...

[lettuce]

Ok i got my Sony KV-25K5U yesterday, damn its heavy compared to the other 2 21" screens i have seeings this is only 4" bigger!, must be the Trinitron tube  . This is the first Sony Trinitron screen i have ever had and i must say all the hype that surrounded the Trinitron screen is well deserved!!, the picture blows away both my Sharp and defo the Bush TV's which in itself is even more impressive when you consider that this Sony TV is older than both my other screens, i can tell this by the length of time it takes to get a display to appear once i have turned the Sony on, my other 2 TV's display a picture within about 2 seconds the Sony takes about 5-8....im guessing this is an indication of an older much used TV?? I dont get any of the flicker/shakeness that was present on my other 2 TV when viewing Windows, the picture is nice and solid  .

Im using the following monitor specs line (in mame.ini)...

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 288, 448

I used Rolling Thunder to obtain the above modeline and using the nag screen white borders and editing the modeline until i could get the white borders fitting the Sony display as best as i could, the only negative thing i can say about the Sony's display so far is it could do with being ever so slightly rotated anti-clockwise as you can see from the following pics (The pics dont really do the Sony justice plus my cameras crap at taking pic of TV screens)

Rolling Thunder





Final Fight





Now when i loaded up R-Type the bottom of the display is competely cut off....





Now how do i go about getting R-type to fit my display, as im sure Calamity said that you cant decrease the screen vertically via monitor specs line, and it i do this via the service menu of the Sony (which i dont have atm) then games that do already fill the screen correctly will have a massive border at the bottom of the screen!?

[Calamity]

Hi lettuce,

Nice to see you back in business. Try keeping this value as low as you can, before you start seeing problems at the top of the screen, like retrace diagonals:

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 288, 448

You can use Arcade_OSD with a 256 video mode to find the right values. You won't get the picture fit inside for 256 lines resolutions, but you need to get it vertically centered for all games. Using the service manual over and over is the only solution for vertical adjustment, that's a fact.

[lettuce]

So if i select the video mode 256x256, what am i aim for?, to get the test display to fill the whole TV screen? Is this for R-type and similar resolution games?? Using 256x256 in the veritcal geometry setting, if i change the 'V back porch' from '16' ln to '8ln' then the test screen fills the screen from right to left where as at '16 ln' it wasnt

So am i going about it all wrong in getting certain games to fill my display perfect??, instead of loading said game looking at the white borders then quiting the game editing 'monitor specs' line in mame.ini reloading said game again and rinse and repeat. Should i just leave the monitor specs line in mame.ini as default (dont edit it) and going through ever single (120) modelines in OSD arcade and adjusting to fit the screen that way??

[Calamity]

Actually rtype uses 384x256 but the relevant part is the vertical lines so any 256 lines mode should be fine for testing.

So am i going about it all wrong in getting certain games to fill my display perfect??

No, I didn't mean that. You still need to edit the monitor_specs lines in mame.ini to get things working.

But (this is the point nobody in the forum is getting yet) you can use Arcade_OSD to the find your values interacting with the screen instead of from a trial and error process. Then you write them down and copy then to the monitor_specs line. You don't need to edit all 120 modes, just one or two relevant ones until you find the good values.

Just ask whatever you need and I'll be helping.

[lettuce]

So any game that has a res greater than 256 lines on the vertical will always have overscan? Is there a way i can 'trick' groovymame into display these game so that fit into my display without having to alter the vertical adjust through the TV service menu??

To be honest Calamity the OSD porgram confuses the hell out of me, i get that you can go into each video resolution and change the vertical and horizontal geometry value so it fits the screen, but other than that im at a complete lose.

So for example i have edited the values for the screen res that final fight and rolling thunder both use so it fits the screen as best it can...but what values do i have to write down for the monitor_specs line, and surely if ive only edited a few video resolutions how is this changing/altering the monitor_spec line within the mame.ini file?

So here some steps i have done,

1. selected video mode 288x224 (rolling thunder)
2. selected 'horizontal geometry'
3. altered the front porch and back porch so it fits the screen as best it can

then done the same as above for 384x224 (final fight), what do i need to do now then regarding the monitor_spec??

maybe a guide is in need for using Arcade_OSD correctly?

[Calamity]

So any game that has a res greater than 256 lines on the vertical will always have overscan?

Sure.

Is there a way i can 'trick' groovymame into display these game so that fit into my display without having to alter the vertical adjust through the TV service menu??

Yes, you can change this value (active lines limit), so that anything above 256 will be interlaced + stretched

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

but what values do i have to write down for the monitor_specs line, and surely if ive only edited a few video resolutions how is this changing/altering the monitor_spec line within the mame.ini file?

It's very easy, once you have a resolution centered, go both into horizontal and vertical geometry submenus. You'll see the values you need on the right of each line, so:

H Front porch
H Sync pulse
H Back porch

... correspond with these ones (same order):

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

... same for vertical values:

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

So the meaning of all this is not to center a particular resolution (that is overriden anyway by GroovyMAME).

What we do is to ensure that all the modelines recalculated from that monitor_specs line are similar to the one you just centered with Arcade_OSD (which values you've obtained).

maybe a guide is in need for using Arcade_OSD correctly?

Definitely, you'll probably have some news soon.

[Paradroid]

i must say all the hype that surrounded the Trinitron screen is well deserved!

Judging by your photos, I'd have to agree! Looks like it produces a most excellent image.

I'm looking for a Sony but it's tricky in Australia. There's a flood of Sony's on eBay but most only have yellow/red/white RCA connections as opposed to RGB SCART. I guess I'll have to get intimate with model numbers and ask the sellers to take photos of the back panels.

Anyway, congratulations! Nice find!

the only negative thing i can say about the Sony's display so far is it could do with being ever so slightly rotated anti-clockwise

Hmm, almost every TV I've tried has had this to a varying degree. I can tell because the very top line on the screens never lines up with the black screen mask PERFECTLY. Most of the TVs I've tried have Phillips tubes though. Interesting that Sony does it too, although, I'm sure this varying between actual production units rather model numbers.

i do this via the service menu of the Sony (which i dont have atm)

You'll need to become good friends with that Service Menu to play R-Type, et al. You'll probably need to use the remote control to navigate. Honestly, I'm surprised you've gotten as far as you have without messing about with Service Menus. Lots of the TVs I've tried need some full-on tweaking before the image starts to looks decent. Some of the Loewes I've tried have been horrendous before I've corrected the geometry.

It's a pain to have to adjust the settings in between games but it's a small price to pay for arcade perfect CRT gaming. Trust me, you'll get really quick at it.

[lettuce]

So any game that has a res greater than 256 lines on the vertical will always have overscan?

Sure.

Is there a way i can 'trick' groovymame into display these game so that fit into my display without having to alter the vertical adjust through the TV service menu??

Yes, you can change this value (active lines limit), so that anything above 256 will be interlaced + stretched

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

but what values do i have to write down for the monitor_specs line, and surely if ive only edited a few video resolutions how is this changing/altering the monitor_spec line within the mame.ini file?

It's very easy, once you have a resolution centered, go both into horizontal and vertical geometry submenus. You'll see the values you need on the right of each line, so:

H Front porch
H Sync pulse
H Back porch

... correspond with these ones (same order):

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

... same for vertical values:

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

So the meaning of all this is not to center a particular resolution (that is overriden anyway by GroovyMAME).

What we do is to ensure that all the modelines recalculated from that monitor_specs line are similar to the one you just centered with Arcade_OSD (which values you've obtained).

maybe a guide is in need for using Arcade_OSD correctly?

Definitely, you'll probably have some news soon.

Ok cheers, that explains it a bit more, but just to clarify something, using the 288x224 (rolling thunder) i have edited the setting as best to fill the screen, now in the horizontal geometry submenu i have:

H Front Porch>>>>>>>>>>>3.834
H Sync Pulse>>>>>>>>>>>3.834
H Back Porch>>>>>>>>>>>10.224

So i should change the monitor_specs line to reflect this right....

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.834, 3.834, 10.224, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 288, 448

But when i go to a different video resolution and change the values in the horizontal geometry submenu so it fits the screen, that will give me 3 competely different H Front Porch, H Sync Pulse and H Back Porch vaules that i would need change in the monitor_spec line, and thus will give me another monitor_spec line??

I have noticed that RoadBlasters which uses 336x240 gives me borders either side of the screen, but when i load that resolution up in Arcade OSD it fills the screen out and there is no borders, so how come there is when running the game?

[lettuce]

You'll need to become good friends with that Service Menu to play R-Type, et al. You'll probably need to use the remote control to navigate. Honestly, I'm surprised you've gotten as far as you have without messing about with Service Menus. Lots of the TVs I've tried need some full-on tweaking before the image starts to looks decent. Some of the Loewes I've tried have been horrendous before I've corrected the geometry.

It's a pain to have to adjust the settings in between games but it's a small price to pay for arcade perfect CRT gaming. Trust me, you'll get really quick at it.

Yeah i need to find out what the service menu code is for this sony, a quick look on google hasnt come up with anything yet, where do you usually look for your codes? To be fair the service menu scares the crap out of me, the only things i dare change is the screen size and shift the picture to the left and right? Do you usually tweat more than this then??

The main problem im going to have is i have my NTSC SNES connected up to this TV aswell, and while that displays more or less perfectly (it could do with being shifted over the the right abit) if i start changing it for MAME then it will mess up the setup for the SNES

[Calamity]

But when i go to a different video resolution and change the values in the horizontal geometry submenu so it fits the screen, that will give me 3 competely different H Front Porch, H Sync Pulse and H Back Porch vaules that i would need change in the monitor_spec line, and thus will give me another monitor_spec line??

Well that's true, because you can only increase values by a character (ch) at a time, so that numbers jump specially for lower resolutions. In order to get more accurate values, try centering a mode with the highest horizontal resolution possible (720x480i is fine). You'll probably need to fine tune those values a little bit until you find the sweet spot.

However, I was recommending you trying Arcade_OSD adjustments in order to get the minimum vertical back porch that your monitor is happy with.

[Paradroid]

Do you usually tweat more than this then?

Oh yeah! I love to have a play with everything. You should be fine if write down the original values before changing anything. Stick to the H & V size and position controls and then branch out if you need to. There are heaps of sites out there with service manuals that tell you all about the Service Menus for particular TVs. Maybe try searching for the chassis number instead of the actual TV model number?

The main problem im going to have is i have my NTSC SNES connected up to this TV aswell, and while that displays more or less perfectly (it could do with being shifted over the the right abit) if i start changing it for MAME then it will mess up the setup for the SNES

Well, that makes the decision for you: get your TV looking PERFECT for the SNES using the Service Menu geometry adjustments. Then, use Arcade_OSD to discover the correct values and then setup your monitor_spec line accordingly, yes?

[Calamity]

Well, that makes the decision for you: get your TV looking PERFECT for the SNES using the Service Menu geometry adjustments. Then, use Arcade_OSD to discover the correct values and then setup your monitor_spec line accordingly, yes?

Yes, that's the right way to do it.

[apfelanni]

there are several codes related to the build in chassis . try standby , remote : I+ , 5 , Vol+ , picture . if tt appears on the screen press menu .

alternate method may be to start the tv with 2 pressed buttons from the front panel . google ur chassis and service mode .

i ll adjust the screen that 9x % of my favorites are working well. i ll give a dam of some crapgames i ll never play . try alternate nearby resolutions if a game hesitates to work .

only the 29 inch sonys have a second coil around the tube to adjust rotation in +  -  degrees steps. maybe the tech can be adapted to the 25 inch models , coz the chassis are identical with all the needed plugs. both my 25 inch sonys have these slight offsets.

[lettuce]

However, I was recommending you trying Arcade_OSD adjustments in order to get the minimum vertical back porch that your monitor is happy with.

Ok ill do that first and then get a more accurate values by selecting 720x480i and try centering that mode as best as possible.

I take it that if i select a V back porch value that is too low then ill just get a 'out of sync' display on my TV right?? What resolution is the correct one to use to find my lowest V back porch value or doesnt it matter?

Something strange is going on here, have just loaded TMNT and the screen is really zoomed in, for the nag screen the actual nag box in the centre of the screen with the text in thats the only thing i can see just that box, when the game loads the horizontal values seem to be ok and fit the screen, but on the vertical the game screen is about a quarter down the screen and cuts the rest off at the bottom, yet when i run the res mode that TMNT uses in Arcade OSD (336x240) it fills the screen fine!!

EDIT: OutRun (320x224) seems to be doing a similar thing, nag screen zoomed in and the in game display is a quarter up the screen with a massive border at the bottom?

Well, that makes the decision for you: get your TV looking PERFECT for the SNES using the Service Menu geometry adjustments. Then, use Arcade_OSD to discover the correct values and then setup your monitor_spec line accordingly, yes?

Yeah well thats what i was think but what ever i do with the Arcade OSD settings im not going to be able to get games like R-type to fit my screen??

[lettuce]

there are several codes related to the build in chassis . try standby , remote : I+ , 5 , Vol+ , picture . if tt appears on the screen press menu .

alternate method may be to start the tv with 2 pressed buttons from the front panel . google ur chassis and service mode .

i ll adjust the screen that 9x % of my favorites are working well. i ll give a dam of some crapgames i ll never play . try alternate nearby resolutions if a game hesitates to work .

only the 29 inch sonys have a second coil around the tube to adjust rotation in +  -  degrees steps. maybe the tech can be adapted to the 25 inch models , coz the chassis are identical with all the needed plugs. both my 25 inch sonys have these slight offsets.

How do i find what chassiz the Sony uses?, is there a database somewhere on the net, or is the only way to find out to take the TV apart?

[Calamity]

I take it that if i select a V back porch value that is too low then ill just get a 'out of sync' display on my TV right?? What resolution is the correct one to use to find my lowest V back porch value or doesnt it matter?

Before it goes out of sync you should see some distortion on the top of the picture, you need to find the lowest value that's distortion-free. Best resolution to test this: one with 256 lines.

If you start experiencing issues like that one with tnmt after messing with Arcade_OSD, try running VMMaker and restarting to regenerate all modelines.

[lettuce]

there are several codes related to the build in chassis . try standby , remote : I+ , 5 , Vol+ , picture . if tt appears on the screen press menu .

Found the chassis its an FE-1 chassis and the code to enter the service menu is:

Turn the set on and then put into standby
Press the On Screen Display button
Press the "5" button
Press the "VOLUME +" button
Press the "TV" button
Use buttons "^"(Green) and "v"(Blue) on the remote control to navigate the service menu
Press YELLOW button to enter required menu
Use buttons "<" and ">" to adjust the selected data
Press the "MENU" button to store the data and exit

 

[Paradroid]

Found the chassis its an FE-1 chassis

Sweet! This chassis comes highly recommended.

[lettuce]

Is there really any point to altering any of the vertical geometry settings in Arcade_OSD, apart from V center if need be, as you can change the size of the vertical lines to fit your display??

If you start experiencing issues like that one with tnmt after messing with Arcade_OSD, try running VMMaker and restarting to regenerate all modelines.

Have tried what you suggested and TMNT still only displays the text window of the nag screen and the a massive black border at the top of the screen, its strange there is a slight black border on the left and side but when sprites come in from the left hand side they over lap this black border!?

[Calamity]

Is there really any point to altering any of the vertical geometry settings in Arcade_OSD, apart from V center is need be, as you can change the size of the vertical lines to fit your display??

Yes, it's very important to find the minimum vertical back porch value your TV accepts, because:

- It will allow to get higher refresh rates for the same horizontal frequency (i.e. for vertical games rotated: 1942 at 60 Hz, etc.)
- If the vertical back porch is higher than necessary, the excess will go to the upper border, shifting the screen down, so the modeline generator in VMMaker/GroovyMAME will fail centering the modelines vertically: see your 256 lines mode that is missing the bottom but not the top, that's what I mean.

In your case, 8 lines vs 16 lines is a HUGE difference, go for it.

[lettuce]

Well i have selected a res of 256x256 and im able to get the 'Vertical back porch' setting to go to its lowest value (0.065) with no display problem, but then if i add this into my mame.ini monitor_specs line when i load a game that fitted the screen fine before the vertical is now overscanned!?

It seems the lower the vertical back porch setting the greater overscan on the vertical it gives you, which is the opposite of what i want really, i dont want any overscan on the vertical

[lettuce]

Quick one, should we be leaving the 'monitor_specs' line in the VMMaker.ini file the default value?.....

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

As i have used Arcade_OSD and selected 640x480 60i (desktop res) and altered the values so it fits my display as best as possible, which gives me this 'Monitor_specs' line...

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 4.121, 4.710, 9.420, 0.065, 0.163, 0.784, 0, 0, 288, 448

i have added this to the VMMaker.ini file and ran VMMaker.exe to generate new modeline, as this is whats run as soon as windows loads right?

[Calamity]

It seems the lower the vertical back porch setting the greater overscan on the vertical it gives you, which is the opposite of what i want really, i dont want any overscan on the vertical

Well that's definitely interesting as your TV seems to dynamically adjust v-amp depending of the number of lines?

But is it overscanned or just shifted up?

If you do the opposite (increasing vertical back porch) can you make the 256 lines mode fit the screen?

i have added this to the VMMaker.ini file and ran VMMaker.exe to generate new modeline, as this is whats run as soon as windows loads right?

Yes, replace the default values with the ones you found and regenerate modelines. Use those values in mame.ini too.

[lettuce]

Well using 256x256, the highest i can go on v back porch is 1.144 an more above that and i just get a scrambled screen all the time, and i cannot get it to fit the screen on the vertical

Something i have noticed is since i used 640x480 and adjust settings in Arcade_OSD so it fits the screen as best i can, when i run Final fight now the game is overscanned on the vertical where before it wasnt!, how can this be as i though you werent able to change the overscan on the vertical?

EDIT: i think its just shifting the screen down, as i just change the vertical back proch from 0.784 to 1.200 and i noticed it was moved down

Is it possible to add a 'Monitor_specs' line to each game.ini file, so it loads that 'monitor_spec' line when loading the game?

[Calamity]

Well using 256x256, the highest i can go on v back porch is 1.144 an more above that and i just get a scrambled screen all the time, and i cannot get it to fit the screen on the vertical

Yeah, that's because your reaching your top horizontal frequency, write down the hfreq value right before this happens and use it for your ranges.

Something i have noticed is since i used 640x480 and adjust settings in Arcade_OSD so it fits the screen as best i can, when i run Final fight now the game is overscanned on the vertical where before it wasnt!, how can this be as i though you werent able to change the overscan on the vertical?

Don't use the desktop resolution for adjustments, it usually can't be edited, I'm surprised you could do real-time adjustments (that's why I recommended the 720x480 at first hand).

You're not usually able to affect v-amp with modelines, but these Sony TVs definitely do something with it, it's not the first time I've heard this but couldn't get it confirmed.


 

[Calamity]

EDIT: i think its just shifting the screen down, as i just change the vertical back proch from 0.784 to 1.200 and i noticed it was moved down

You need to test this with a 256 lines mode, adjusting your system menu so that you compress the picture vertically to get all the lines in. Then find the lowest value for the vertical porch were you start loosing lines at the top or the picture top gets distorted. That's the value we're looking for.

The aim of this is to find a value that gets all the games centered vertically.

Is it possible to add a 'Monitor_specs' line to each game.ini file, so it loads that 'monitor_spec' line when loading the game?

Of course it's possible but that's exactly what we're trying to avoid! 

[lettuce]

You need to test this with a 256 lines mode, adjusting your system menu so that you compress the picture vertically to get all the lines in. Then find the lowest value for the vertical porch were you start loosing lines at the top or the picture top gets distorted. That's the value we're looking for.

Yeah i seem to be having a problem getting this to fit in the screen without overscan, any ideas on this?...im using 256x256 in Arcade_OSD??

EDIT: i seem to be struggling getting any higher values on the v front porch, v sync pluse and v back proch, if i set them any higher than

VFP 1.195
VSP 0.120
VBP 0.179

gives me a scrambled display

[Calamity]

Well, I'll write a tutorial on this at some point. It's definitely not obvious if you're not used to messing with this stuff.

You get a garbled screen because the hfreq gets too high (you're adding too many lines). That value of hfreq is *very important*, post it here.

Set 256x256 resolution. You should use your service menu to shrink the picture vertically to a point where you can see *all* scanlines of the raster (active and non-active), even if the picture is chopped at the top or bottom, there needs to be a black border from the picture to the plastic frame. That's just for this test, after that you can set it back to its place. Have you achieved this already?

For this test, your vertical values should be set like this:

VFP - 1 line (always fixed)
VSP - 3 lines (always fixed)
VBP - 16 lines (this is the value you have to play with)

[lettuce]

You get a garbled screen because the hfreq gets too high (you're adding too many lines). That value of hfreq is *very important*, post it here.

Ok these are my settings (256x256) for Horizontal geometry......




I have entered the service menu and lower the V stretch from 40 all the way down to 15!!   in order to get the grid to fit the screen......



So whats my next set Calamity?

[Calamity]

AWESOME! I didn't think the Sony would accept 16.4 KHz, that's like having a Trinitron arcade monitor!

I have entered the service menu and lower the V stretch from 40 all the way down to 15!!   in order to get the grid to fit the screen......

Yes that's quite normal. I just wonder if you had to apply any vertical centering too.

So now, I'd try to achieve 60 Hz with that resolution.

First, try finding your lower valid vertical back porch. Start reducing that value line by line. At some point, the top of the picture will start getting distorted or compressed, or you'll see some retrace diagonals. Get the lower number of lines where this doesn't happen.

Then, unlock the vertical frequency (lock vfreq) and raise the dotclock until you get 60 Hz, in case you can't, try getting as close as possible.

[lettuce]

Yeah i had to apply a bit of vertical centering

Ok, if i lower the V back porch anymore than the 16 its already on, i lose the white border going around the edge of the active raster .

Now in the process of me raising the Dotclcok, the screen scrambled and wouldnt sync, so i had to quit out and start again. If i dont touch any of the Horizontal geometry settings  and leave them as default (but gives me about an inch black border either side of the picture)...

HFP 3 ch 3.934
HSP 4 ch 5.246
HBP 7 ch 9.184

Im able to get the Dotclock to 59.960 or 60.058 not sure if its best to have to lower or high side of 60hz??

But if i set the Horizontal geometry to what i had in the pic on my previous post, im only about to get the Dotclock to 59.758....



or though the side borders seem to get slightly larger when i raise the dotclock, and noticed it took about 3 seconds for the screen to sync as i had a scrambled screen for the 3 seconds and thought that it wasnt going to sync but did.

[Calamity]

Yeah i had to apply a bit of vertical centering

I just hope once you find your values you just need to adjust v stretch and everything is automatically centered.

Ok, if i lower the V back porch anymore than the 16 its already on, i lose the white border going around the edge of the active raster .

Well, that's fine, so 16 lines is your value.

Now in the process of me raising the Dotclcok, the screen scrambled and wouldnt sync, so i had to quit out and start again. If i dont touch any of the Horizontal geometry settings  and leave them as default (but gives me about an inch black border either side of the picture)...

HFP 3 ch 3.934
HSP 4 ch 5.246
HBP 7 ch 9.184

Im able to get the Dotclock to 59.960 or 60.058 not sure if its best to have to lower or high side of 60hz??

But if i set the Horizontal geometry to what i had in the pic on my previous post, im only about to get the Dotclock to 59.758....

Yes, that's normal. From your first picture, H sync pulse was already 4.346. That's quite below the standard TV sync of 4.7 microseconds. As you increase the horizontal frequency by raising the dotclock, your horizontal values get somewhat reduced, so you probably reached the lower limit for your horizontal sync pulse and that's why it gets out of sync. Just increase that value by one character (ch) and you won't have issues. Forget about the horizontal centering by now, we're just looking for vertical values.

Find the highest vfreq your TV can accept at 256 lines, 60 Hz is more than good, but if you could reach 60.61 (unlikely) you will be able to run frogger and such games at their native refresh.

or though the side borders seem to get slightly larger when i raise the dotclock, and noticed it took about 3 seconds for the screen to sync as i had a scrambled screen for the 3 seconds and thought that it wasnt going to sync but did.

Yes, that's normal. As you increase the horizontal frequency, the picture gets narrower. Extra lines actually come from the time saved by not drawing in those borders!

That's why in order to get the right horizontal geometry values, you'll need to use a 15.7 kHz mode, rather than this 16.4 kHz mode that we're using to find your vertical values.

[Calamity]

Remind that if you get a garbled screen at some point, you can just press "2" to exit full screen, fix the value and press "2" again to return full screen.

[lettuce]

Ok the highest im able to go is 60.371Hz anymore and the display doesnt sync

[Calamity]

Ok the highest im able to go is 60.371Hz anymore and the display doesnt sync

So the value that Hfreq has at that point is the one we need (should be around 16.5 Khz??)

We just need the horizontal values for a 15.7 kHz mode to build the monitor_specs line.

[lettuce]

I have here 16.662kHz.

Any other info u need to know?

[Calamity]

I have here 16.662kHz.

WOW. It accepts nearly the same hfreq that my Hantarex MTC 9110, but with a lower retrace time (better).

Any other info u need to know?

Just center a 15.7 KHz mode: any one with 240 lines @60 Hz could serve. Use the one with the highest resolution available so your results will be more accurate. Then post your horizontal values (HFP, HSP, HBP). That will be enough.

[lettuce]

Ok one quick question, should i be saving these setting i made on the 256x256 resolution?? As i have selected 240x256 and even if i move and Horizontal value down one the screen doesnt sync ?

[lettuce]

Ok what i did was Lock Vfreq again (should i of done that). The settings horizontal are:

HFP 1ch 1.583
HSP 4ch 6.334
HBP 4ch 6.334

I very rarely change the H or V sync pluse settings when trying to get the picture to feel the display, im not sure what it does!?. I know HBP increase the screen on the left and HFP increase the screen on the right, just not sure what HSP or VSP does??

[Calamity]

Ok what i did was Lock Vfreq again (should i of done that). The settings horizontal are:

HFP 1ch 1.583
HSP 4ch 6.334
HBP 4ch 6.334

Those values aren't good ones. By 240 I meant lines. 240x256 is too low for getting accurate values.

Go for the highest horizontal resolution at 15.7 kHz. Do you have any 720x480@60i or something similar?

Think the horizontal sync pulse should be around 4.7 microseconds.

I very rarely change the H or V sync pluse settings when trying to get the picture to feel the display, im not sure what it does!?. I know HBP increase the screen on the left and HFP increase the screen on the right, just not sure what HSP or VSP does??

Yes the porches have to do with the borders. The sync pulses control the time the beam uses to return to its place, vertically and horizontally. We shouldn't increase this value artificially as it would make the left / top border grow, but if we set it too low the TV won't be able to sync.

[Calamity]

Ok one quick question, should i be saving these setting i made on the 256x256 resolution?? As i have selected 240x256 and even if i move and Horizontal value down one the screen doesnt sync ?

You don't need to save anything, we're just testing. After we get the right values we'll recalculate everything with those.

[lettuce]

OK 720x480 60i...........

HFP 8ch 4.124
HSP 9ch 4.639
HBP 17ch 8.763

I did actually save the values we were testing on the 256x256 resolutions does this matter?

[Calamity]

Fine! So these are your settings:

vmmaker.ini: monitor_specs_0 = "15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.120, 4.640, 8.760, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448"
mame.ini: monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.120, 4.640, 8.760, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Run VMMaker with those settings and restart. Then try GroovyMAME. It doesn't matter if you saved anything, it's going to be rewritten by doing this.

Now, I don't know if modes will be automatically centered (*EDIT* VERTICALLY I mean) or not. If the Sony behaves like a real arcade monitor, they should be centered. This means that once you adjust one of them through service menu, the others will be centered too. Only vertical amplitude should need to be adjusted.

But if it does things different than an arcade monitor, then you may need re-center the modes slightly using your service menu.

[lettuce]

Cool, cheers for taking the time to help with this Calamity! I'll give it ago and report back tomorrow!

[lettuce]

Ok have just tried a few games, and i think the sony does centre vertically.....as im not getting like the white line border on the nag screen for say the left, top and right of the border but the bottom is off the screen, if the game has overscan then both the top and bottom white border lines will not be visable....if that makes sense!?

Have notice that some games will fill the screen horizontally then others do not!, and for the ones that do not they are not centered, but using the in game  'slider controls' menu you can move the display over (with the screen horiz position option) until it is centered so thats not a massive problem. Should all game ideally fill the screen horizontally and be centered??

Have noticed in the 'slider controls' menu there is also a 'Screen Vert Stretch' option which allows you to shrink the screen ao games like R-Type fit the display!!, but it seems to produce some strange compression effect ie bits of text missing, is this fixable??

Also One of my fav games, Elevator Action Returns has a fair bit of over scan vertically  . To be honest i would rather not have to mess about with the service menu on the TV so is there away to get these games that have large overscan and vertical games to fit my display, and if so what side effects does this cause GroovyMAME?

[Calamity]

Well I'm certainly confused about your results. Let us take it in parts.

You should get the RIGHT and LEFT white borders of the nag screen for ALL resolutions. If this is not the case, you need to increasy HFP and HBP slightly, like this: 4.320, 4.640, 8.960

Resolutions should be more ore less centered horizontally, but there will always be some variation. This is due to rounding issues because we work with blocks of 8 pixels (hardware limitation). So this is more obvious with low resolutions. I'm talking or differences of 0.5-1.0 cm.

(horizontal scaling of resolutions provides more accure geometry but this not easy to achieve by now).

I serioulsy doubt you can center a game horizontally without loosing pixels on one side by using MAME slider controls, unless it's a game like mslug doesn't fill the screen "by design" (have a built-in border).

Ok, let's focus on the vertical issue. Are you sure already that your TV doesn't perform any automatic vertical amplitude adjustment?

The fact that Elevator Action Returns, which uses 320x232 is vertically overscanned is really confusing. 232 lines should have black borders on the top and botton! Did you get this game to fit the screen before, I mean with the same service menu setup.

Vertical amplitude or overscan shouldn't be different for the same resolution depending on the monitor_specs setup, if this is the case: the TV is doing something with our modes. Probably there's some PAL/NTSC autoadjustment screwing things.

If you use the service menu to center vertically your 256x256 resolution and adjust vertical amplitude to make it fill the screen, and you run Elevator Action Returns right after that, the 320x232 resolution should be still centered vertically with black borders up and down. Is this the case??

[Calamity]

Have noticed in the 'slider controls' menu there is also a 'Screen Vert Stretch' option which allows you to shrink the screen ao games like R-Type fit the display!!, but it seems to produce some strange compression effect ie bits of text missing, is this fixable??

Oh come on that's crappy picture stretching, it can't get fixed  

If you're going that way to get 256+ lines games fit the screen without adjusting from service menu, I'd rather use interlaced resolutions and stretch the picture.

[lettuce]

Well I'm certainly confused about your results. Let us take it in parts.

You should get the RIGHT and LEFT white borders of the nag screen for ALL resolutions. If this is not the case, you need to increasy HFP and HBP slightly, like this: 4.320, 4.640, 8.960

Yeah i can see the right and left white borders of all games i have tried so far!

Resolutions should be more ore less centered horizontally, but there will always be some variation. This is due to rounding issues because we work with blocks of 8 pixels (hardware limitation). So this is more obvious with low resolutions. I'm talking or differences of 0.5-1.0 cm.

Some game were defo off center horizontally, one game that i remember was robocop and rolling thunder, there was a larger border on the right than on the left and these games dont fill the screen horizontally.

I serioulsy doubt you can center a game horizontally without loosing pixels on one side by using MAME slider controls, unless it's a game like mslug doesn't fill the screen "by design" (have a built-in border).

Well the game i centered (horizontally) with the mame menu was Robocop, and it wasnt cutting the picture off at all it was just moving it across the screen with no loss of pixels

Ok, let's focus on the vertical issue. Are you sure already that your TV doesn't perform any automatic vertical amplitude adjustment?

Im not sure...i wouldnt even know how to find this out??

The fact that Elevator Action Returns, which uses 320x232 is vertically overscanned is really confusing. 232 lines should have black borders on the top and botton! Did you get this game to fit the screen before, I mean with the same service menu setup.

I hadnt gotten around to trying this game before hand so i dont know. But there is defo no borders at the top and bottom, the overscan is that bad i can just about see the top of the 'CREDIT' text in the bottom right hand corner of the screen!. This wouldnt be to with me returning the vertical stretch on the TV service menu back to the value of 40 that it was previous to us testing...where i had to turn it down to a value of 15 so the 256x256 Arcade_OSD raster pattern would fit the screen???

If you use the service menu to center vertically your 256x256 resolution and adjust vertical amplitude to make it fill the screen, and you run Elevator Action Returns right after that, the 320x232 resolution should be still centered vertically with black borders up and down. Is this the case??

Ok have selected 256x256 in Arcade_OSD decrease the vertical stretch from 40 to 15 and centred the picture so it fits the raster pattern on the display. When i run Elevator Action Returns there is indeed borders (about 3/4 inch) at the top and bottom of the screen....BUT i have noticed that even though there is a border at the bottom of the screen the 'Credit' text is partially missing!, the bottom part of the text has been cut off!!?

[Calamity]

Well the game i centered (horizontally) with the mame menu was Robocop, and it wasnt cutting the picture off at all it was just moving it across the screen with no loss of pixels

I see... That seems that it's not picking the right resolution. Robocop uses 256x240, you can dig in the logs to see what resolution it's picking (or just post it here)

Ok have selected 256x256 in Arcade_OSD decrease the vertical stretch from 40 to 15 and centred the picture so it fits the raster pattern on the display. When i run Elevator Action Returns there is indeed borders (about 3/4 inch) at the top and bottom of the screen....BUT i have noticed that even though there is a border at the bottom of the screen the 'Credit' text is partially missing!, the bottom part of the text has been cut off!!?

Weird...

So can you make the Credit text appear by using yout service menu?
Try increasing the VFP: monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.120, 4.640, 8.760, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Ok ill try that one thing i have noticed, i just loaded up Arcade_OSD and slected 720x480 and noticed that the horizontal was overscanned! Now am i right in say that we also want a little bit of black border between the white outline of the raster pattern and the frame of the TV??? These are the new vaules for the horizontal.....

HFP 10ch 5.003
HSP 9ch 4.503
HBP 19ch 9.506

I must of selected the horizontal value in the service menu when i was trying to get a good display for the Super Nintendo the other night 

[Calamity]

Now am i right in say that we also want a little bit of black border between the white outline of the raster pattern and the frame of the TV???

Yeah a prefer to leave a little bit of border because the modeline generator has a tolerance of 0.2 microseconds so if you're reference values are perfectly border-less you'll have a slight overscan for some modes.

I must of selected the horizontal value in the service menu when i was trying to get a good display for the Super Nintendo the other night 

Maybe.

[lettuce]

Ok so what Monitor_specs line should i used taking into consideration the new horizontal values i posted above?

I tried to increase the Vertical stretch via the service menu to see if it would make the rest of the 'credit' text appear in Elevator Action Returns but it didnt...maybe its like that on the real machine?, as the bottom white border of the nag screen on the games load up was a good 1/2-3/4 inch up the screen!!

Remember that problem i was having with TMNT the other day, in that the nag screen was really zoomed in and i was missing a large chunk on the bottom of the screen, well i got to the bottom of this. In the mame menu in 'Video Options' at the top of that menu there is...

Upright Artwork
Standard (4:3)
Pixel Aspect (16:15)
Cocktail

i selected 'Standard (4:3)', and the game was correctlu display!. Now i dont have any bezzel artwork in any of the folders within mame and in the mame.ini file none of these artwork options are enabled! Robocop was one game that i had to do this for also! After i quit the robocop, the dos window report a few line of info for robocop...

c:\mame\mame robocop
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (351x367@57.39)->(351x367@57.39)->(351x367@57.39)
SwitchRes v0.013: [robocop] 1 horizontal (256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)->(256x240@57.39)
Average speed: 98.94% (136 seconds)

Is this something Groovymame is doing that it should be?

[Calamity]

351x367@57.39 there it is

Enter the cfg folder and delete everything there (robocop.cfg in special).

There's where all the video distorting crap is stored.

I tried to increase the Vertical stretch via the service menu to see if it would make the rest of the 'credit' text appear in Elevator Action Returns but it didnt...maybe its like that on the real machine?, as the bottom white border of the nag screen on the games load up was a good 1/2-3/4 inch up the screen!!

Oh yes that is possibly the issue. Try forcing the 320x240@60 resolution with an .ini file. Taito F3 games probably use more than one resolution?

Try these new settings:

monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Right ive deleted everything in the cfg folder in mame, i have just loaded robocop and the nag screen is super zoomed in again!!

This is the Monitor_specs line i have now....

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

With the new 0.180 value you suggested the credit text on elevator action returns in now visable!!  , but noticed since i added my new horizontal values theres 1/4 inch borders either side of the picture now where as before it filled the screen completely, also there is stil slight overscan, can only see bottom half of the score at the top of the screen and top half of the credit text at the bottom of the screen. From what your saying there should be borders at the top and bottom for this game??

Also Robocop still has a good 1/2 inch border either side of the screen

[Calamity]

For the robocop and such issues: make a new empty folder and place groovymame.exe inside. Run groovymame -cc to create mame.ini and start again. That's the only way to be sure everything is fine.

From what your saying there should be borders at the top and bottom for this game??

Yes, can you still see the borders with the v. stretch value in your service menu set to 15?
So you mean the picture is cropped up and down but you still have borders? (this would never happen with an arcade monitor, it seems a TV specific issue)

Try increasing the vertical porch values by 0.60. Also reduce the horizontal a little bit:

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Have noticed since setting the V Front porch value from the 0.060 to 0.180 it fixed the credit text problem in Elevator Action Returns, but it has move the screen up on other games so i no longer can see the top white line border on the nag screen

For the robocop and such issues: make a new empty folder and place groovymame.exe inside. Run groovymame -cc to create mame.ini and start again. That's the only way to be sure everything is fine.

From what your saying there should be borders at the top and bottom for this game??

Yes, can you still see the borders with the v. stretch value in your service menu set to 15?
So you mean the picture is cropped up and down but you still have borders?

Try increasing the vertical porch values by 0.60. Also reduce the horizontal a little bit:

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

When i have the vertical stretch set to 15 via service menu the game has borders. But with it at the default 40 I dont get any borders on the top and bottom at all its just overscanned

Just to clarify, shouldnt it be..

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.500, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

and not....

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

as my values where...

HFP 10ch 5.003
HSP 9ch 4.503
HBP 19ch 9.506

[Calamity]

Have noticed since setting the V Front porch value from the 0.060 to 0.180 it fixed the credit text problem in Elevator Action Returns, but it has move the screen up on other games so i no longer can see the top white line border on the nag screen

Yes, increasing VFP has exactly that effect: moving the screen up, that's why normally that value should be set the minimum (one line).

When i have the vertical stretch set to 15 via service menu the game has borders. But with it at the default 40 I dont get any borders on the top and bottom at all its just overscanned

Alright... Let's see it this way: your Sony TV seems *designed* to have vertical overscan for 232 lines when v. amp is set to default 40.

So for these tests and for future use, you can't expect removing vertical overscan with modelines if you keep using the default 40 setting. *Unless*, you're positive you have seen 240+ lines modes not overscanned before with the *same* v. amp 40 setting: that would mean the TV is applying some sort of autoadjustment and would complicate things a lot. (maybe gong back to the default monitor_specs 0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448 might help clarifying this).

In other words, I don't consider it vertical overcan at all if you can use your service menu to reduce vertical amplitude to make the picture fit the screen.

So please set v. amp to a point where you have some borders up and down so you are positive you're seeing the whole raster, be it 15 or whatever, and keep it there until we figure out your vertical setup.

Only if after setting the TV like this, you can still see the bottom of the game chopped while having a bottom border (as you reported for elvactr), you'll need to tweak things. Possible using our fist setup (
monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448) -ignore horizontal overscan by now- use your service menu to shift the picture up to see if you can get the picture fit the screen without loosing lines on the top. Or, maybe, using the modified (monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 5.000, 4.500, 9.500, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448), and use the service menu to shift the picture down.

So to clarify, our goal is to get a combination of vertical porch values + service menu v.shift where all games are vertically centered in the screen.

This is very easy to achieve for an arcade monitor but I don't know if this is even possible for a Sony TV.

Once you get that, you'll be ready to restore the service menu v. amp to a point that fits the particular game you want to play, or just get a point in the middle where i.e. 240-lines games fit but 224 have borders and 256 are overcanned (overcan would be symmetric). Or set it up for 256 to fit but all lower have borders, etc.

If only I could mess with that TV directly... I think it'd be a matter of 10 minutes to figure out what's going on with some Arcade_OSD tweaking. It's possible that I'm just plain wrong. Thanks for keeping testing.

Just to clarify, shouldnt it be..

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.500, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

and not....

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.800, 4.500, 9.300, 0.240, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

as my values where...

HFP 10ch 5.003
HSP 9ch 4.503
HBP 19ch 9.506

I reduced both 5.00 and 9.500 by 0.2 to reduce the borders symmetrically.

[lettuce]

So to clarify, our goal is to get a combination of vertical porch values + service menu v.shift where all games are vertically centered in the screen.

This is very easy to achieve for an arcade monitor but I don't know if this is even possible for a Sony TV.

Ok so just to make sure we want the whole display area to be visible, so nothing should be cut of from the top or bottom of the screen, for example the top and bottom white line borders of the nag screen should be visable and both equal distance away from the top and bottom bezel of the Sony?

[Calamity]

Ok so just to make sure we want the whole display area to be visible, so nothing should be cut of from the top or bottom of the screen, for example the top and bottom white line borders of the nag screen should be visable and both equal distance away from the top and bottom bezel of the Sony?

That's exactly what we want. If you could achieve that for all different resolutions (with the possible exceptions of the 288-line ones), we're done.

If you notice some random behaviour (i.e. one mode is more shifted to the top and other is shifted to the bottom) then the modeline generation model is not completely suitable for Sony TVs (that would be too bad).

[Paradroid]

I've been reading this thread with intense interest. Really interested to follow these steps with my own TVs. Unfortunately, my MAME time has been taken up with trying to sell/dump/give away my TVs. Once I get my collection down to the essentials I'm gonna knuckle down and follow this same process. In particular, I'm interested to setup by analog and digital Blaupunkts in order to find out if the analog TV behaves like the arcade monitors Calamity describes and whether the digital can compare or just has too many unusual issues. I'm also interested to see if we can come up with a logical, step-wise process requires a little less back-and-forth work for Calamity.

Anyway, continue gentlemen...

[Calamity]

I'm also interested to see if we can come up with a logical, step-wise process requires a little less back-and-forth work for Calamity.

Part of the problem is me not having experience with SCART TVs at all, so sorry if I'm using your TVs as test rats. Please guys feel free to give up when you get tired  

Well, for me there's a purpose to all this apart from having your games look fine. The modeline generation algorithm seems to work acceptably well when it comes to arcade monitors, though it definitely needs some tweaks yet related to frequency ranges and scoring. But this doesn't seem the case with TVs. The vertical centering of modes works by dividing by 2 the extra padding lines needed to adjust vfreq in each case, and adding those 1/2 - 1/2 lines to each vertical porch equally. This works for arcade monitors (at least for analog ones I've tested), but TVs, specially digital ones, may do some active handling of vertical geometry that would ruin our settings. If this is the case, maybe the workaround would be dividing padding lines in a different proportion: 1/3 - 2/3, or something adjustable.

BTW, my father has a 14" black case Sony TV stored in a room I might get for testing at some point, just need to get a cable and find a place for.

Last week I was measuring the house of an old man who has a 29" black case Sony in his living room, I was tempted to ask him to switch it on and start negotiations if it wasn't for the fact it's a 4th floor without elevator - the reason we're there is to install an elavator in the building.

[Paradroid]

BTW, my father has a 14" black case Sony TV stored in a room I might get for testing at some point, just need to get a cable and find a place for.

Nice! If by "cable" you mean a VGA to SCART, I would be happy to make and send you a deluxe, fully shielded version. PM me if you're interested... gotta have you set up properly.

Last week I was measuring the house of an old man who has a 29" black case Sony in his living room, I was tempted to ask him to switch it on and start negotiations if it wasn't for the fact it's a 4th floor without elevator - the reason we're there is to install an elavator in the building.

Install the elevator first before you start negotiations. I live in an apartment on the first floor. Our stairs take a turn half way up. I'm tempted to buy a stair climbing trolley before I completely ruin my back. Mind you, I'm getting pretty good at lugging 70cm TVs up and down between my room and the car. Feels easier than the first time I ever did it, that's for sure. It's the 32" suckers that prove problematic...

[lettuce]

This 25" Sony i picked up last week i had to carry it down 2 flights of stairs  .

I'll have some free time to crack on with getting this Sony setup with GroovyMAME tomorrow as expecting snow here so doubt ill be venturing out side

[lettuce]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

[Paradroid]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

Hmm. I don't know if that option exists but even if it did, you'd be correcting the problem using image processing. That would introduce other issues, I'm sure.

My guess is that this is really a hardware issue related to the alignment of the yoke. None of the tubes I've tried have been absolutely PERFECT in this regard. However, once you apply a small amount of overscan to the image (which I prefer since it gives the image clean edges) you pretty much disguise the issue.

With CRT technology, I think you have to limit your expectations. Otherwise you end up with a lounge room full of TVs... just like me.

[Calamity]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

CCC can only rotate the display by 90ş multiples.
What you mean is hardware related, and it's possible to fix if you dare to do this:

http://www.retrovicio.org/foro/showthread.php?18608-Vendo-Monitor-MULTI-frecuencia.-NUEVO&p=181515&viewfull=1#post181515

... I'd only mess with that if you really know what you're doing.

[Paradroid]

Oh, that's so cool! I thought that those minor deviations were just something you just had to live with! I'll definitely give this a go on a Loewe CT1170 that I have that also has other issues. If I stuff it up, it'll be no great loss.

In other news, I scored a free Grundig yesterday (check my blog). Much older than my other TVs. No OSD so I assume everything is set through the trim pots lined up on the board. The service notes aren't very helpful so far but I can report that the modeline system works very well with this TV! I guess that TVs with analog image adjustment are more like the arcade chassis GroovyMAME is intended to work with. I followed the steps you went through with Lettuce and got excellent results. The only problem is that I haven't worked out which trimpot adjusts the height (wasn't game to just twist 'n' see without some indication from the service manual) but everything seems to be well centered (in both H and V aspects) after working out some values using Arcade_OSD.

My personal goal is to narrow my collection down to 3 or 4 TVs. I sold 2 today to a local enthusiast (wants to build his own cab) and gave 2 Loewes to a charity store yesterday. I'll keep a Loewe (even though the vertical line limit is low, the image is just too good to give up on for Neo Geo and CPS), a modern Blaupunkt (for playing R-Type et al) and probably the Grundig and Blaupunkt TVs I have each with analog chassis. From there, I can concentrate on making the most of the monitor specs and coming to some conclusions regarding digital processing vs analog.

My suspicion is that while the digital is convenient (all geometry can be driven using the remote control), I don't think the behavior will ever be as nice as the analog chassis. For example, on the Loewes, Grundigs and Blaupunkts, resizing the height also changes the shape of the image. This can be corrected, of course, but I suspect that it's never going to be as simple as "adjust the V size and you're good to go!" Maybe Lettuce's Sony is different but that's my prediction.

Thanks for tube adjustment link Calamity! And thank the Lord for Google Translate.

[lettuce]

Does the CCC have an option for rotating the display a few degrees, as i would really like to get the picture on the sony so it is square

CCC can only rotate the display by 90ş multiples.
What you mean is hardware related, and it's possible to fix if you dare to do this:

http://www.retrovicio.org/foro/showthread.php?18608-Vendo-Monitor-MULTI-frecuencia.-NUEVO&p=181515&viewfull=1#post181515

... I'd only mess with that if you really know what you're doing.

I did that on my very first arcade cab i ever bought, scared the shite out of me back then

[lettuce]

So do you twist the glass section of the yoke?? As looking at pic from the thread you posted about it looks like his twisting the black plastic cylindrical bit, but on my Sony there are about 4-5 tabs there???....

[lettuce]

Also whats the best method of cleaning the inside, theres a ton of dust?

[Calamity]

I just asked about this in the Spanish forum, waiting for reply. There's people in this forum too that may know how to deal with that particular tube. As for the dust, I've heard people using compressed air for removing it.

[lettuce]

I think you have to turn all those tab together, this is what i did ever so slightly but it didnt rotate the picture at all. Ive cleaned the inside, tightened the clamp back up and put the TV back together. Least the inside got a clean...whilst i was cleaning the inside i got a bit careless and got a shock off the PCB at the end of the yoke , scared the shite out of me

[lettuce]

Ok, i was messing around with the service menu of the Sony earlier on so i have the best picture alignment i can for my super nintendo. After i finished with that i decided to crack on with getting this mode line sorted out. This is my Monitor_spec line.......

15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

And this is how elevator action returns looks like...



For some reason i can have the V-Size at 28 now (not the 15 i had to before!)

I will try a few other games to see if they are centered vertically

[lettuce]

Strider - Seems to be centered vertically, with slight in game borders, or though not centered horizontally, could be doing with moving over to the right slightly

Final Fight - Same as strider

Rolling Thunder - Has a larger border at the bottom of screen than the top, and still could be doing with the screen shifted over to the right

dragon Breed - can only see the top and right white border of the nag screen

TMNT- Have this problem again of the nag screen being super zoomed in so much so i can only see the center box with the text in and then when the game loads the screen is massively moved down. Have to go into mame menu and video options and change it to 'standard (4:3). When i reload the game the screen is perfectly centered horizontally and vertically.

Why does this happen with tmnt and some other games i cleared the CFG folder of all files??

[lettuce]

Have notice some very strange graphicial effect on TMNT, sprites seem to over lap the border on the left side of the screen, its hard to explain so ive tried taking a video of it to capture it...not sure if this happen on the original hardware or not.........

[Calamity]

The issue with TMNT is a mistery for me, fortunately it can be fixed through the video menu. As for the sprite effect, I think this must come from the original machine, not sure. We'll focus on that when we have sorted your geometry settings.

So I've generated the modelines for the games you reported and I think your results make sense.

Now, in order to find your values and see if this works as we'd like, please write down the service menu vertical settings you worked out for the Nintendo because we're going to need to modify them.

We need to go back this point (in Arcade_OSD):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116669.msg1246284#msg1246284

When you have that mode 256-lines mode displayed, adjust V-size and V-centre until you get a perfect fit.

Then leave that service menu adjustment unmodified for the rest of the test.

Now go back to the monitor_specs we had worked out:

monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

(just updated the horizontal values to the ones you're using now)

Then, test elvactr, strider, rthunder, dbreed (always check that the white box in MAME's nag screen).

We're only interested in vertical centering at this point.

[lettuce]

To confrim then, i should load 256x256 in Arcade_OSD anf alter the V-Size & V-Centre until it fits the screen as best it can, and then change the Vertical geometry to..

VFP - 1 line (always fixed)
VSP - 3 lines (always fixed)
VBP - 16 lines (this is the value you have to play with)

and see how low i can get the VBP??

[Calamity]

Yes that's it, though I think we already got the lower VBP, didn't we?
So this time it's just to get the right service menu values.

EDIT: Sorry, what I meant is: first, set 256x256, VFB, VSP, VBP, then adjust V-Size V-Center.

[lettuce]

Ok then, so im not actually changing anything on the PC/Arcade_OSD side then, im just changing the vertical screen size via the service menu of the TV so it shows all the active raster pattern at 256x256?? I will get the same results as i did before though wont i?...or thought with larger borders as im guessing im going to have to shrink the screen vertically more in order for it to fit the 256x256 pattern??

I mean im not going to be changing the Monitor_spec line for this step

[Calamity]

We're actually using the monitor_specs we were working on, not the one you used today:


monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

We need to service menu adjusted for 256x256 + the VFP VSP VBP above, that are the ones that match the monitor_specs line we'll be using.

These settings must not be modified. The other day I understood you were modifying V-size so what you reported as overscan might be something else.

[lettuce]

Ok then so set up 256x256 via service menu to fit the screen and then use monitor_spec 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

or

generate monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 and then use service menu to fit 256x256 on to the screen?

[Calamity]

Yes, but not *ANY* 256x256: must be the one with the settings above (VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16), you'll need to tweak it with Arcade_OSD

or

generate monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 and then use service menu to fit 256x256 on to the screen?

No, that might create a different mode, for this test you need to manually set it as explained...

[lettuce]

Hmm, ok ive just loaded 256x256 in Arcade_OSD and lowered the values to VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16, and went to see if i could get VBP any lower than 16, and im able to get it to VBP 1!!!. Info at the top of the screen is, 256   256    59.607     15.558.

How come im able to get lower than 16 now where as before the screen wouldnt sync??

[Calamity]

You sure? So did you press "1" to test? You should notice some distorsion on the top.

[lettuce]

Maybe a false alarm, the screen sync fine but when i move the screen down via the service menu the top few squares of the pattern were missing/overscanned, with the VBP set at 16 i just about have the white lines displayed with V-Centre at 24 and V-Size at 15.

I take it i now need to quit out of arcade_osd (do i save the settings??) and go straight to loading a rom??

[Calamity]

Yeah, keep that service menu settings and run the games...

[lettuce]

Ok tried the same games over again and them all seem to be more or less centre vertical maybe a slight different between the border from the top and bottom, all apart form Dragon breed which has the bottom white border missing

Have noticed one thing though as i have the screen super shrunk vertically atm, there are 3 very thin red, green, blue lines going across the top of the screen, about 1/4 of an inch down from the TV bezzel

[Calamity]

Ok tried the same games over again and them all seem to be more or less centre vertical maybe a slight different between the border from the top and bottom, all apart form Dragon breed which has the bottom white border missing

Have noticed one thing though as i have the screen super shrunk vertically atm, there are 3 very thin red, green, blue lines going across the top of the screen, about 1/4 of an inch down from the TV bezzel

Those are return diagonals, a sympthom that your VBP is too low:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/108/dsc00286ps7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/108/dsc00287qw1.jpg/

Add 0.060 to VBP to see if it fixes that:
monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 1.020, 0, 0, 288, 448

Add 0.060 step by step until you fix the issue.

Use dbreed as your test screen now.

When you fix it, load dbreed and use it to readjust V-center until you it fits.

Then try the rest of the games again.

[lettuce]

Im not sure that red, green and blue line is that, as its above the active display of mame.....



I think its always there, just cant see it as the screen isnt usually that shrunk down??

[Calamity]

Oh that's a different thing, so leave the modeline_specs as it is

But possibly do use dbreed to re-center the screen as I explained.

[lettuce]

Just via service menu yeah? Would i have to shrink the screen even more than the 15 setting??

[Calamity]

Yeah with the service menu. I think you'll just need to touch v-center one or two positions.

[lettuce]

Ah ok, interesting i have loaded Dragon Breed and move the screen up from a value of 24 to 39 but the bottom of the screen is cut off and there appears to be white dots flashing randomly at the bottom of the screen!!

[lettuce]

Or though when in the actual game it does display the whole gaming screen i had to move the screen to value 36...but there is some very small flash dot/lines right at the very bottom of the gaming screen where the lifes HUD is. The screen on the right has a rather large bow to it near the bottom. Heres a vid showing it.....

[Calamity]

Possibly try adding 0.060 to the VFP like this:

monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.120, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

However, the fact that you need to modify v-center up to 36 is more of what I'd like.

Test the rest of the games keeping this service mode settings, to check if they're centered or they're shifted up now.

[lettuce]

Adjust VFP via Arcade_OSD and save or edit the VMMaker.ini file and generate?

[Calamity]

No, just the monitor_specs in mame.ini and run dbreed again and the rest of games.

I need to go for today. Anyway, the aim of all this is to get to a point where you don't need to use v-center anymore, so all games can more or less fit just by using v-size.

If this is not possible, then I might need to rethink the modeline algorithm for TVs.

Thanks for your time and patience.

[lettuce]

Thanks for your help today! 

[lettuce]

Ok added 0.060 to the VFP and added this monitor_specs line to mame.ini as instructed...

monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.120, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Didnt seem to change anything for Dragon breed.

Have a question though since we set 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and shrunk the screen via the service menu so it fitted, we havent edited any of the monitor_specs lines in the mame or mvmake ini files just saved the 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 settings in Arcade_OSD. Some how come you suggested editing the mame.ini with the above monitor_specs when we hadnt done this for the last few steps??

[Calamity]

Have a question though since we set 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and shrunk the screen via the service menu so it fitted, we havent edited any of the monitor_specs lines in the mame or mvmake ini files just saved the 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 settings in Arcade_OSD. Some how come you suggested editing the mame.ini with the above monitor_specs when we hadnt done this for the last few steps??

 

So what settings have we been testing? Didn't you include this monitor_specs line in mame.ini since the first step yesterday:
monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

I think you did. Please confirm. Were you using monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 at this step: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116669.msg1247784#msg1247784

In other words: we created this monitor_specs line the other day by using the values prompted in Arcade_OSD when we set the values VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16.

However, this values are only true for 256@60Hz, but dbreed uses 256@55Hz, so some padding lines need to be added, that's why the screen is shifted down.

[Calamity]

Lettuce, I'm thinking the dbreed issue (and probably the centering issue altogether) could be fixed if your TV accepted an horizontal frequency as low as 15200 KHz.

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

(use this line in mame.ini for testing dbreed, re-center using service menu v-center, and test the rest of games).

[lettuce]

Ok, ill add line to my mame.ini, i dont need to add it to VMMaker.ini and generate??

[lettuce]

Have edited the Monitor_specs line in mame.ini (and only mame.ini) to...

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

There appears to be about 4-6 lines of pixels missing from the bottom of the screen, there is also a 1/4 inch border at the bottom of the screen now for Dragon breed. I also think there might be overscan at the top of the screen also, as that red, green and blue line i was talking about it right at the top of the gaming display now when i move the screen down, where as before there was a 1/4 border between the gaming display and thie red, green and blue line.

I must add that the monitor_spec line in MVMaker.ini if different to...

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

is this correct??

Also rolling thunder has a large border at the bottom (approx 1 inch and 1/2) and a very very margin border at the top but that red, green and blue line is right next to this border so is visable. So it would appear that this monitor_spec line has cause everything to be shifted up vertical to the limit of the TVs display hence why im seeing the red, green, and blue lines next to the active gaming screen now??

[Calamity]

Lettuce, I'm sorry I made a mistake when copying the monitor_specs line, use this one instead:

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

You only need to add it to mame.ini by now. When we find the right values it will be the time to add it to vmmaker.ini and regenerate modes (not yet).

Run dbreed with this and correct the service menu adjustment for v-center, v-size until you make the screen fit.

[lettuce]

Ok used monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 in mame.ini, loaded dragon breed can see the left, top, and right white borders of the nag screen moved the V-center up but the bottom one is cut off/overscanned

[Calamity]

Alright. I'm assuming your v-size is still wide enough to see the whole raster and some borders. Try lowering hfreqmin a little more:

monitor_specs0 15100-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Have tried, monitor_specs0 15100-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

but didnt seem to be any different...if anything maybe it cut off a tiny pic more from the bottom of the picture.

I even tried, monitor_specs0 14900-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 and still was the same.

What is actually happening here can you explain it it moron terms 

[lettuce]

Using this Monitor_specs line, monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Shows the whole gaming area on Dragon breed (can see the whole of the white border on the nag screen) but still has a sligh graphic glitch in the bottom right edge of the gaming display with some flashing pixels/lines

[Calamity]

What is actually happening here can you explain it it moron terms

Honestly, I don't quite get what's actually happening. As soon as I think I understand it, your results prove I am wrong 

With the last settings I suggested, we were producing a modeline for dbreed like this:

 ModeLine          "384x256x55.02" 7.988555 384 416 456 528 256 257 260 275 -HSync -VSync

This modeline has nearly the exact same vertical porches as the 256x256 mode we started with (VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 15). However, you reported the bottom was cropped for this one, while the mode we tested in Arcade_OSD fits the screen perfectly. That's not what I expected. Both modes have nearly the same total lines (275 vs 276). However, one fits the screen, the other doesn't. So, in appearance, same values produce different results depending on, vfreq?? That's telling us your TV is doing some stuff with our modes, it's taking some decisions. Maybe it's designed to behave different for PAL/NTSC, and that's getting in the middle.

So probably the best you can do by now is using the line you came up with: monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

... and see if by centering dbreed with this one you're so lucky that the other games are centered too. If this is the case, you'll just have to mess with v-size when switching games. Otherwise, you'll need to tweak v-size & v-center each time you switch game heights.

[lettuce]

So what our are options then? As if im going to be using, 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 games like dragon breed will display fine but others like, strider, final fight, robocop , rolling thunder etc will have massive borders. As ideally i would rather not have to adjust the V-Size. Seeing as there are more games that share similar resolutions to games like Rolling thunder, robocop etc than games like Drgaon breed R-type etc would it be fesable to get these type of games filling the screen??

Unless you have any other suggestions?

[Calamity]

So what our are options then? As if im going to be using, 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 games like dragon breed will display fine but others like, strider, final fight, robocop , rolling thunder etc will have massive borders. As ideally i would rather not have to adjust the V-Size. Seeing as there are more games that share similar resolutions to games like Rolling thunder, robocop etc than games like Drgaon breed R-type etc would it be fesable to get these type of games filling the screen??

Unless you have any other suggestions?

Again, vertical centering, vertical centering is the key.

If that monitor_specs line produces games that are centered all the time, then if your favourite games have 224-240 lines, just adjust v-size for 240 lines, and these games will fill the screen.

If the centering between games doesn't vary, you will be able to use a very tight v-size adjust to almost cover the screen. But if your vertical centering is kind of random, you'll need to open v-size more in order to leave bigger borders that avoid different games being cropped on the top or bottom of the screen.

Then if some day you decide to run rtype, just adjust v-size so you get the 256 lines in the screen.

[lettuce]

Ok, just tried running rolling thunder, and there a very small border at the top and a massive 2" border at the bottom, so it not centering on the vertical , this is with the V-center value used to get Dragon breed to fit the screen.

What were the option for getting games like r-type to fit the screen  i think you said something about them running interlaced?

[Calamity]

Ok, just tried running rolling thunder, and there a very small border at the top and a massive 2" border at the bottom, so it not centering on the vertical , this is with the V-center value used to get Dragon breed to fit the screen.

I was afraid of that... anyway, if you center the screen for rolling thunder, do the rest of 224-240 games get centered too, at least??

What were the option for getting games like r-type to fit the screen  i think you said something about them running interlaced?

Come on lettuce, I can't believe you prefer an interlaced display rather than messing with your service menu for a minute.

Anyway, let god forgive you, just edit this value, everything above that will be interlaced.

15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 248, 448

[apfelanni]

today i did some quick testing to figure out the max sync frequenzy of my " kitchen " tvs . the candidates :

grundig  t70-450 text : very basic and solid chassis cuc 6310, analog potis , nice picture , 28 inch philips tube , it doesnt sync anything above 16k . i bought this tv in the ninetees for about 400 dm , it may have been running less than 1000 hours .  less nonsens parts on the chassis , the better for arcade use.  

grundig st63-700 and st63-702 :  chassis cuc 2030 and 2032 digital , both sync around 16,4 khz max , both cripple some lines on the top , 240 line games seem to be ok , maybe 1-2 lines on top missing , 256 line games are cut off noticable .

philips 25pt4513-2: digital chassis , syncs around 16,4k max , some lines cut off in 240 , but barely noticable , 256 line games like r-type wont display without major cuts .

sony kv21x5d : digi chassis , syncs around 16,5k , 240 line games display without problems but u have to set vert size to min , which is zero , 256 line games are cut off on top and bottom .

[lettuce]

Yeah i guess its not a massive pain in the arse to mess about with the service menu.

Ok you know before we tried 256x256 in Arcade_OSD with the vertical geometry settings at VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and i reported that anything lower than VBP 16 cause the top of the screen to be cut off/over scanned??. Well i decided to lower VBP to 14 which translates to 0.850 in the monitor_spec, well ran Dragon breed and its still display the top white border of the nah screen!!!, so how come in arcade_osd its causing overscan??........you do now im using your beta update version of the Arcade_OSD that you sent me...if this effects anything or not??

[Calamity]

Yeah i guess its not a massive pain in the arse to mess about with the service menu.

Ok you know before we tried 256x256 in Arcade_OSD with the vertical geometry settings at VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and i reported that anything lower than VBP 16 cause the top of the screen to be cut off/over scanned??. Well i decided to lower VBP to 14 which translates to 0.850 in the monitor_spec, well ran Dragon breed and its still display the top white border of the nah screen!!!, so how come in arcade_osd its causing overscan??........you do now im using your beta update version of the Arcade_OSD that you sent me...if this effects anything or not??

Weird... well, in order to test that properly, you should enter the modeline dbreed is using into Arcade_OSD. You can get the modeline from the game's log, then you enter the modeline submenu in Arcade_OSD and copy the different values. So you'll get dbreed's mode into Arcade_OSD and possibly tweak it. (the beta version is just the same for the modeline part at least).

EDIT: Of course, in order to do this you have to edit an already existing 384x256 mode...

BTW, for the interlace solution, forgot to tell you to reduce the hfreq too:

15700-15800, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 248, 448

... otherwise the interlarced mode would be even taller than the progressive one!

EDIT2:

Well i decided to lower VBP to 14 which translates to 0.850 in the monitor_spec, well ran Dragon breed and its still display the top white border of the nah screen!!!, so how come in arcade_osd its causing overscan??

Well yesterday my brain was a bit collapsed. What you're seeing is completely normal, because although you're reducing VBP to 14, the modeline algorithm is stuffing the modeline with some padding lines so it reaches 15.700 KHz (the value you introduced in your last monitor_specs line), so it's compesating for the otherwise too short VBP. You'd either need to leave the monitor_specs line with 15.100 KHz or even lower to see how setting VBP to 14 has an effect, or generate the resolution at @60 Hz: at both situations none or just very few padding lines would be added, making the short VPB issue appear.

[Calamity]

today i did some quick testing to figure out the max sync frequenzy of my " kitchen " tvs . the candidates :

grundig  t70-450 text : very basic and solid chassis cuc 6310, analog potis , nice picture , 28 inch philips tube , it doesnt sync anything above 16k . i bought this tv in the ninetees for about 400 dm , it may have been running less than 1000 hours .  less nonsens parts on the chassis , the better for arcade use. 

grundig st63-700 and st63-702 :  chassis cuc 2030 and 2032 digital , both sync around 16,4 khz max , both cripple some lines on the top , 240 line games seem to be ok , maybe 1-2 lines on top missing , 256 line games are cut off noticable .

philips 25pt4513-2: digital chassis , syncs around 16,4k max , some lines cut off in 240 , but barely noticable , 256 line games like r-type wont display without major cuts .

sony kv21x5d : digi chassis , syncs around 16,5k , 240 line games display without problems but u have to set vert size to min , which is zero , 256 line games are cut off on top and bottom .

Hi apfelanni, thanks a lot for testing this.

I'm a bit surprised however that none of those can show 256p lines.
I think some of them might need a longer VBP, specially suspicious is the st70 782 chassis cuc 2032 picture cropped on the top. If you used 18 or even more lines instead of 16 you might get the top in the picture, did you try this already?

[Paradroid]

I'm a bit surprised however that none of those can show 256p lines.

Me too. To date, I've tried... let's see... I think 5 Grundig digital chassis TVs: 2 Grundig brand 50/60Hz TV, a 100Hz Grundig, a Siemens and a Blaupunkt (both Grundig digital chassis types). The very first Grundig was off the side of the road and I had no idea about the line limits of some TVs at that stage so I didn't test. It had other issues so I turfed it. However, all the others have been cable of showing a full R-Type image. Reducing the picture height and centering the image with the service menu did the trick every time.

[Calamity]

So do you twist the glass section of the yoke?? As looking at pic from the thread you posted about it looks like his twisting the black plastic cylindrical bit, but on my Sony there are about 4-5 tabs there???....

I have the answer from Characa from the Spanish forum: "Do not touch the tabs on those rings, they're only for static convergence adjustment. In order to correct the picture rotation, loosen the flange (as performed in the previous pictures) that holds the yoke or deflector block and the tube's neck together, and rotate (the yoke) in the required direction. TRINITRONs since 29" have an adjustment in their service menu to perform this rotation electronically."

[lettuce]

Cheers Calamity. So he suggeted to rotate the yoke, correct me if im wrong the yoke to the copper braided cone component....



Surely its not safe to touch that and rotate when the TV is turned on???

[Calamity]

Lettuce, be aware I just translated the answer, I've no idea of how to do it. As I understand it, he means the black block covered in dust that's between the cooper cone and the rings with tabs. However, I assume this is a rather dangerous think to perform if you really don't know what you're doing, so consider asking someone with the proper knowledge, in this forum there are very skilled people that might help.

[lettuce]

Well ill try it with the TV off to be on the safe side, it only needs to be rotated a little

[lettuce]

I loosened the jublie click around the neck of the tube, and tried to rotate the black plastic block but it didnt want to rotate, i didnt want to force it too much so i ahve left it

[Paradroid]

Man, I'd love to attack that thing with my air compressor! Look at all that dust! I have an air gun hooked up to a small air compressor for cleaning electronics. SO satisfying! My TVs end up super-clean, inside and out. Great for cleaning dusty heat sinks and such that don't function as well as they should when they've got a thick layer of insulating dust and dirt.

[lettuce]

I managed to clean it up inside in the end so nice and dust free now

[apfelanni]

some good news . the 240-256p problem of the modern digital grundig ( 2032 ) could be fixed via some changes in arcade osd . increasing the vbp helps to get the msising lines on the top. 240 p is perfect now , 256p maybe needs some more investigating how the parameters work. i dont wont to push the vfreq to the limit. the problems with 2 two sony kv25x5d has also gone . i opened them and adjusted screen and focus a little , bingo the sharpness went back to what i would say normal for a 10+x year old tv set. maybe not 100 % perfect like the philips , but 9x % . it looks like a matter of aging , but good thing it could be compensated . i wonder how many tvs end up in the garbage , because the owners think the tube is weaken and beyond repair , and still all it takes is some adjustment . so now i have 2 very good 25 inch vertical options for my second ok baby shell . 

[lettuce]

the problems with 2 two sony kv25x5d has also gone . i opened them and adjusted screen and focus a little , bingo the sharpness went back to what i would say normal for a 10+x year old tv set. maybe not 100 % perfect like the philips , but 9x % . it looks like a matter of aging , but good thing it could be compensated . i wonder how many tvs end up in the garbage , because the owners think the tube is weaken and beyond repair , and still all it takes is some adjustment . so now i have 2 very good 25 inch vertical options for my second ok baby shell . 

does your sony tv look the same as mine pictured above?

[Paradroid]

i wonder how many tvs end up in the garbage , because the owners think the tube is weaken and beyond repair , and still all it takes is some adjustment .

I know, I know! The thing that eats me up inside is that so many awesome TVs must bypass eBay, Gumtree, Freecycle, etc. and go straight to landfill.

Cool that you got some of your issues sorted! Like I said, all the Grundig chassis (digital and analog) I've tried have been 240 and 256 line capable. Some even do 288.

[apfelanni]

this is how my sony looks like .. small solid chassis , all can be unplugged .. he will end in baby2 in the next days.. all i have to do is build a new mountig frame .. 3 babys , but only 2 frames coz 1 came with a weird 20 inch china vga touchmonitor . did some bezeling to hide the monitor surrounding . u ll find the focus on the dst and the screen poti on the neckboard. if the pic is a little blurry u may try the focus .

@lettuce : u cant rotate the joke that easy , because its glued on the tube with the rubber spacer. i would only try this , if the rotation deviation is very noticable while playing .. theres always the chance u make things worse.

if all goes well and the sony is implanted , i ll have so setup a new mame comp with crt driver and groovymame for vertical gaming .  

[Paradroid]

Damn! Look at those cabs! Wish I had space for that kind of thing. apfelanni, what were you running before you got into GroovyMAME, just the standard MAME build? Those things are gonna be pretty special with the combination of that Trinitron and GroovyMAME!

[retronerd]

Hello! I need some help with Geometry calibration! Im running mameuifx32_0145 soft 15khz with scart_vga to my SONY-KV29X2E. First question, can i calibrate my tv thru the service menu so for example Street Fighter 2 fits correkt and save it ,and change in the service menu again so for example Mortal kombat fits with a good resolution. Please if anyone have the time to explain.. All help is very much apriciated.

I have the service menu for my TV but if i change h-size etc. it changes for every game and every channel. Please explain.

[Paradroid]

@retronerd: sounds like you're doing everything right if you're able to get sf2 and mk to fit properly after adjusting your service menu settings.

The reality of the situation is that TVs were designed to be calibrated for a single (PAL or NTSC) or dual (PAL and NTSC) resolution(s) whereas playing a variety of games in GroovyMAME will usually involve a whole range of different resolutions. TVs don't save settings for each individual resolution you want to run and therefore you have to fiddle with the service menu when you switch modes.

You can either accept that this is the price to pay for running games at native resolutions or try scaling all games to a fixed resolution (e.g. 640 × 480). The problem with that is that games look less authentic and you'll have a flickering image (due to interlacing). Neither option is ideal and you just have to work out which compromise you prefer.

For me, the ideal solution has proven to be modifying a SCART TV with analogue controls. That way I can run native resolutions and adjust the sizing very quickly using external potentiometers instead of jumping through the service menu hoops.

[retronerd]

Thanks for the reply! Do you have a diagram on how to make a SCART TV with analogue controls? One more question! Is groovymame an better alternative than mameuifx32?

I also need some advice on how to add modelines to 15khz.
I made a txt doc and named it as custom15khz.txt in same folder as soft 15khz.

Modeline "320x224@60" 6.700 320 336 367 426 224 236 239 262  -hsync -vsync   

Remove 800,600.

But its not working, please help!

i also have problem with my geometry, posting pictures soon!

[Paradroid]

Do you have a diagram on how to make a SCART TV with analogue controls?

"Make" a SCART TV from a diagram?! That would be way more fun than doing a jigsaw puzzle... Serious now, what you need is a TV that uses trimpots to adjust the image size and geometry instead of a digital service menu. Then, it's just a matter of soldering in larger potentiometers (of the same resistance) in their place. apfelanni is the grand wizard of SCART. If you search some of his posts you'll soon find a whole range of potential models by Grundig/Blaupunkt/Siemens/Phillips.

One more question! Is groovymame an better alternative than mameuifx32?

Not sure. Haven't used mameuifx32. From my understanding, GroovyMAME is the state-of-the-art when it comes to running MAME on a real CRT.

I also need some advice on how to add modelines to 15khz.

Do you have an ATI card? If so, I'd go with the vmaker and arcade_osd combination. It's easy to use and feature packed.

i also have problem with my geometry, posting pictures soon!

Looking forward to it.

[retronerd]

Hello again!

Before I found this thread, I used soft15khz, but when I installed crt_emudriver_9.3_1.2a_xp32 I got a lot more resolutions to choose from. I would like to learn how to set up different resolutions on each game in groovymame. Then I wonder how to set up some custom modelines.

 I'm pretty new to this.
 I have also included some pictures of my CRT monitor and the problem I have with the geometry. I fail to get the picture straight down at the bottom as you can see the pictures. sorry for my bad english...

http://imageshack.us/g/443/cimg1027pp.jpg/

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

GroovyMAME will pick the right resolutions automatically by itself, provided these resolutions are available in the system (CRT_Emudriver-> VMMaker, etc.). The system works by creating the required custom modelines for you, so in most situations you won't need to deal with modelines at all. The key for success is to figure out the monitor_specs settings that fit your monitor, then the right modelines will be calculated automatically.

The geometry issue with your CRT won't be fixed with modelines, try using your service menu options to solve it.

These Sony Trinitron TVs seem to be some of the best out there regarding flexibility and picture quality, when it comes to custom video support. It's just that, unfortunately, these sets perform some sort of autoadjustment between different modes, probably designed to compensate for the different geometry between PAL and NTSC standards, an advanced feature for their time which now results in a practical annoyance. For our specific purposes, we prefer dumb, indolent TVs which just show what they're fed with. However, in most situations the only "problem" is the need to enter the service menu to adjust v-size and v-center when we switch between modes.

[retronerd]

Hi Calamity,

Thanks for the reply!  Is there any step by step guide? i didnt get it? for example in original mame you can run a program called Avres and it generates resolutions for each game and you can edit them individually.  I want to run the games on their native resolution.

About my sony 29 trinitron i understand i have to edit in service menu but the problem was the bottom i cant get the image straight there....

[Calamity]

Thanks for the reply!  Is there any step by step guide? i didnt get it? for example in original mame you can run a program called Avres and it generates resolutions for each game and you can edit them individually.  I want to run the games on their native resolution.

- AVres doesn't generate resolutions, it only generates .ini files.
- VMMaker can generate resolutions and .ini files at the same time.

However, if you're going to use GroovyMAME, you don't need .ini files, as I said, its AUTOMATIC. As long as you have the resolutions available: if you installed the driver they should be there, however, use VMMaker to regenerate the video modes if you like. Edit vmmaker.ini and check the options. But don't create ini files if you're going to use GroovyMAME. You only need ini files for normal MAME builds.

[retronerd]

-AVres i meant ini files!

I have install the hacked drivers for my Ati Radeon HD 4350.

shall i have Arcade_OSD and VMMaker in the same folder as Groovymame?

Shall i make an XML for groovy mame? How do i make a custom resolution for ex Mortal kombat?
Whrre do i change settings in groovymame? ex ddrav...


Can i just use Arcade_OSD and VMMaker to make resolutions and use it in original mame?

[Paradroid]

Slow down retronerd! Let's take this one step at a time. That way we can make sure everything is understood and works properly...

Calamity has given you some good info. Spend a few moments to digest that before jumping ahead.

Here are the basic steps for arcade perfection using GroovyMAME:

1. Uninstall Soft-15kHz (you won't need this anymore).
2. Install the custom ATI driver (you've done this already).
3. Edit your vmaker .ini file to point to your MAME .exe file. Set it to generate an MAME XML the first time you run. Leave the monitor type as "CUSTOM".
4. Run vmaker and then restart your computer.
5. Launch Arcade_OSD. You should now see a HUGE list of video modes. Far more than with Soft-15kHz.
6. Place GroovyMAME.exe (or similarly named) in your MAME folder. Backup your old mame.ini and then generate a new one with GroovyMAME.
7. Launch GroovyMAME and choose a game to play...

If all the steps were followed correctly, you'll now be playing your favourite (15k) game at native resolution AND refresh rate on your Sony SCART television. No need to make a custom resolution for Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter or Pulirula... GroovyMAME and vmaker do all the the work for you!

As Calamity said, if things aren't perfect already, you can work at discovering the upper and lower ranges of your monitor and create custom "monitor_spec" definitions to help with sizing and centring. If you re-read this thread right from the start you'll pick up most of the steps involved.

In summary, GroovyMAME, vmaker and Arcade_OSD are a suite of tools that work together. You don't need Soft-15kHz and should run the GroovyMAME build instead of regular MAME if you want CRT nirvana.

[retronerd]

Paradroid, I did a fresh install of Windows XP 32 and installed the crt_emudriver_9.3_1.2a_xp32_multisync drivers for my Radeon HD 4350.

When i connect my Computer to my TV i got this



Is this drivers related or it is my VGA_scartcable?

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

I'm afraid that's a 31 KHz signal. Probably the drivers didn't get installed properly. This may happen with fresh Windows installations which sometimes contain newer versions of the ATI driver that get messed with the ones we install. Try starting in safe mode, running CatUninstall to remove any ATI software and reinstalling CRT_Emudriver.

[Paradroid]

Calamity, one clarifying question: after installing the CRT_emu drivers, should retronerd select 640×480 as the desktop before restarting? Or, will your drivers set the desktop to that by default after restarting?

Also, retronerd, it can be handy to have a standard computer monitor close by (I have an old 15" Samsung LCD for the purpose) for the times you get your display out of sync like this. That way you can see what you're doing to change your settings.

[Calamity]

Calamity, one clarifying question: after installing the CRT_emu drivers, should retronerd select 640×480 as the desktop before restarting? Or, will your drivers set the desktop to that by default after restarting?

Yes, that might be the issue indeed. If the previous desktop resolution was 800x600, Windows will probably try to select that one even after installing the driver, that's why it's a good idea to select 640x480 before restarting, as this one resolution will always be present as 15 KHz.

[retronerd]

Hello again! I dont have an option to choose 640x480 in windows i can only choose that resolution thru qyickres.

If i boot the pc change to 640x480 and change monitor to my Sony trinitron i got a good picture. so now is almost everything working. the dilemma is that i have to switch monitor al the time. i havent playing around with groovymame yet. 

[retronerd]

Im testing Groovymame right now! semms that some games doesnt fit to well? as you can see some games works perfect but, games like sf2, mk and strider doesnt fit the screen?

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7590/strider.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8099/94940739.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6356/cimg1054t.jpg
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/661/cimg1053f.jpg
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7499/cimg1043s.jpg
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/2940/cimg1045.jpg
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6232/cimg1046n.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2482/cimg1052h.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4783/cimg1050t.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1914/cimg1048.jpg

[lettuce]

Some of those pics towards the bottom of that list has the best convergence i have seen on a Sony TV, the display is dead square impressive!. For the games which dont fill the screen try going into the mame UI menu (tab) and select 'Video Options' at the top of that menu there is...

Upright Artwork
Standard (4:3)
Pixel Aspect (16:15)
Cocktail

try selecting 'Standard (4:3)' and see if that helps

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

Did you create a fresh mame.ini before testing GroovyMAME?
Attach a log of mk here, like this:

groovymame.exe mk -v -md 4 >mk2.txt

... that will show me what your current settings are and provide a solution.

[retronerd]

Yes i made a new xml and ini before first launch of groovymame.

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd, thanks for the logs.

Have a look at them, they're all from mk, I'm afraid.

I've seen that you're using an old GroovyMAME version, please test one of the newer ones: http://mario.groovy.org/GroovyMame/WindowsATIDrivers/

Anyway, this is what the logs say:

SwitchRes: Found 75 custom of 104 active modelines.

There should be 120 modes there. One of the missing ones happens to be 400x256, the one required by mk. This could be due to booting the computer with a PC monitor attached. Make sure only the TV is attached on boot.

[Paradroid]

Damn! Those pictures look great! Sonys really pump out a beautiful image. Nice going!

[retronerd]

Hello again! I reinstalled the drivers again! dont know why the drivers is not working properly?

i upload the ini files again...

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd.

You have two different problems going on there:

- All 256p and 512i modes are missing. As I said, this is probably because you're booting with a PC monitor attached (please confirm). DON'T DO THAT: Windows will filter many necessary video modes thinking they're not compatible with your PC monitor EDID! Instead, boot the computer with the TV attached the correct output: DVI. Use a DVI-VGA adapter.

- MAME seems to be using a weird aspect ratio for sf2 / strider, even if the right video mode is selected. Please attach your mame.ini here, so I can have a look. Also, try enabling/disabling the -keepaspect option.

[retronerd]

Hello again!

I did as you sad, and was running VMMaker with computer conected to my sony crt! and reeboted. Now i have 400x256 resolution.
Mortal kombat fills the entire screen and more, much overscan. Can i adjust that thru Arcade_osd or is the only option Service menu on my TV?

Everythings seems to work when my computer in connected to my crt but when connected to my lcd the screens turns black some times and the computer even reebots. is that normal.

Whats the advantage with groovymame exept that you dont need to manually select the resolution for each game?

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3473/cimg1082z.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3168/cimg1080j.jpg
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/9285/cimg1079v.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2403/cimg1067j.jpg
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6136/cimg1075l.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1171/cimg1072e.jpg
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/8177/cimg1071v.jpg
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3112/cimg1058n.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5337/cimg1059me.jpg
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3715/cimg1057yh.jpg

[lettuce]

Damn!, did you alter the screen size or position at all for each game in the pics you posted above via the TV service menu at all, if not that is almost perfect in that you getting an almost perfect fit

[Paradroid]

retronerd, that's all looking very good indeed! The focus is excellent on your TV. Seems like a great unit!

The advantages of GroovyMAME over the official MAME build are obvious once you fully comprehend what it's able to achieve. As I said earlier, GroovyMAME allows you to recreate the original resolution and refresh rate for each game. If you're still not sure why this is such a wonderful thing, try switching back and forth between GroovyMAME and vanilla MAME. Look at some games that feature smooth scrolling. An obvious one for me was Blazing Star. With normal MAME, the scrolling jumps a frame here and there. This is especially easy to see in the Stage 2 background. With GroovyMAME, the scrolling is PERFECT. The effect is stunning! Same in Mortal Kombat when the high score table scrolls down the screen. Another example is the vertical scrolling between levels in Snow Bros. This jerks badly in regular MAME.

Compare those sort of examples and you'll be convinced!

[maiki]

But by using Windows do you really think you are running a smooth environment (really smooth scrolling, no interruptions, 1003 proper video timing?). I remember well that Andrea Mazzoleni was warning against using ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like Windows to run Advance MAME properly. Yes, in good old days we used to run Advance MAME and DOS, ring 0. That's the way to go. You people are really boring me with all your Windows topics.

[Calamity]

But by using Windows do you really think you are running a smooth environment (really smooth scrolling, no interruptions, 1003 proper video timing?). I remember well that Andrea Mazzoleni was warning against using ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like Windows to run Advance MAME properly. Yes, in good old days we used to run Advance MAME and DOS, ring 0. That's the way to go. You people are really boring me with all your Windows topics.

Yeah it's a shame that AdvanceMAME was discontinued, seriously. You know, GroovyMAME is smooth because all the timings are based on the GPU clock, which is in fact external to the Windows OS, CPU's ring 0/3, etc.

BTW the purpose of this subforum is not to entertain you.

[Paradroid]

Surprised maiki was even reading this thread considering "scart" is in the title!

Sounds like AdvanceMAME was quite something... However, the nice thing about Windows is that all my fancy gadgets work (e.g. joysticks, high-end audio interfaces, mice, keyboards, etc.) and you can run MAME at 64-bit. I guess you can do most of this stuff with Linux these days too but good luck getting all this cool stuff to work with DOS!

Of course, the DOS approach sounds great in theory but those days are over, surely?

[Calamity]

I'm one of the guys who would still be using DOS for emulation if hardware support was guaranteed. For a project of mine back in the 90's, I spent months struggling to get my SoundBlaster DOS code work in newer cards, until I made my mind to move the whole code to Win32 and never look back, I learnt the lesson. Linux is our hope, but in terms of hardware support it tends to suck too - I hate to say this -.

So this is how I see it, if you put these variables into the equation:

- amount of available emulators
- hardware support
- performance
- CRT support (15 KHz)

... You reach an optimum for this combination: Windows XP-64, ATI HD4xxx

... If you remove the variety of emulators from the equation - just focus on MAME -, and you know your hardware is supported, then the optimum is Linux (i.e. GroovyArcade), with the additional benefit that newer ATI cards are supported.

[Paradroid]

You reach an optimum for this combination: Windows XP-64, ATI HD4xxx

Great info for the upcoming GroovyMAME FAQ!

Nice, neat summary of where things are at.

[retronerd]

Thanks for all help so far

When i run mk, mk2 or mk3 the game fills up the whole screen, but in the bottom i miss 1 half cm or something cant fix it from service menu?

Is that so for everyone or can i calibrate it from Arcade_OSD?

some explanation how Arcade_OSD works were estimated.

another problem why doesnt Hyperspin works with emu drivers?

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

If you read the previous pages in this thread you'll probably see many of your doubts being solved in a practical case.

As for the HS issue, yes it's a well known bug, too many modelines in the system and HS won't start. You can solve it by either trimming your mode list or by using "magic resolutions". Search this forum and you'll find plenty of information on this.

[retronerd]

Im sorry but i need some help here cant figure it out?

[Paradroid]

Hey chaps...

I just joined the Trinitron club today.

My personal Sony is pretty serious piece of electronic engineering. I have no idea of it's capabilities yet (monitor_specs wise) but the initial images and under-the-hood inspection are extremely promising. Crazy luck that I even found this unit...

Anyway, have a gawk right here.

I think I'm officially going "analogue controlled only" after this awesome discovery.

[apfelanni]

speaker out per din plug and mf date 85-89 ? .. oha .. the tubeshielding? and amount of potis look like those in the sony pvm broadcasting monitors , analog dinosaurs . the trinisticker makes me laugh .. maybe grandma thought its displayed like a channel symbol and never found the button on the remote to deactivate it .

[Calamity]

Nice score Paradroid! Will be interesting seeing how this thing performs, specially how the Trinitron tube compares the others.

[lettuce]

Hey chaps...

I just joined the Trinitron club today.

My personal Sony is pretty serious piece of electronic engineering. I have no idea of it's capabilities yet (monitor_specs wise) but the initial images and under-the-hood inspection are extremely promising. Crazy luck that I even found this unit...

Anyway, have a gawk right here.

I think I'm officially going "analogue controlled only" after this awesome discovery.

Nice find my man! Once you have a Trinitron you'll never be able to go back, what model number is it?. I think im going to try and get hold of a older Trinitron with analogue pots, as going through the service menu all the time is a paint and having the pots mounted on the outside of the case would make life alot easier.

Apfelanni, any ideas when abouts Trinitron's stopped having analog pots??

[Paradroid]

Thanks guys!

maybe grandma thought its displayed like a channel symbol and never found the button on the remote to deactivate it .

Probably not that far from the truth! Either that or she wanted to preserve the resale value...

Will be interesting seeing how this thing performs, specially how the Trinitron tube compares the others.

Well, the Trinitrons are certainly VERY different! I actually got my baby PVMs going yesterday too. The first thing I noticed was how different the curvature of the screen is compared with my good ol' Philips EAK tubes. Not sure what I prefer yet but the focus is definitely superior on the Sony. I'm still a little vague on what determines good focus: age of tube, condition or flyback, or both?

what model number is it?

Sony KV-C27 (chassis type is AE-1). There's an encyclopaedia written on this thing here. Also, the Service Manual lists other models with the same chassis.

having the pots mounted on the outside of the case would make life alot easier.

That's what I'll be doing, in time. The case is actually made of wood!

[lettuce]

Well i found 3 Trintron's on eBay within a few miles of me all different models.....im going to get my ball cut off

[princess prin prin]

Sony AE1 chassis based TVs (ca. 87-91) are the best of best. Later models, especially Vega/FD Trinitrons just can't compare as the picture, albeit good, doesn't have the old style arcade monitor feel that AE1 TVs have. The chassis is very modular, you have separate PCBs for AC filtering, teletext, croma, stereo, TV tuner, headphones. I use mine as arcade monitors (in a cab) and I've removed all the unnecessary PCBs.
The flyback only has the focus pot on it, the screen pot is on the neckboard. The red box on the anode lead is only present on the KV-C27, the KV-C25 doesn't have it.

[Paradroid]

Sony AE1 chassis based TVs (ca. 87-91) are the best of best.

Yay!

The chassis is very modular, you have separate PCBs for AC filtering, teletext, croma, stereo, TV tuner, headphones. I use mine as arcade monitors (in a cab) and I've removed all the unnecessary PCBs.

Neat! This doesn't cause any problems? I may have to ask you more about this in the future...

The flyback only has the focus pot on it, the screen pot is on the neckboard. The red box on the anode lead is only present on the KV-C27, the KV-C25 doesn't have it.

Right. Figured as much.

Thanks for the info!

[lettuce]

So would all AE1 chassis being pot based for display options?

I maybe well off here but i think an easy way to tell if a Sony Trinitron TV would have pots rather than an OSD for display option is the Trinitron logo on the TV itself!. Ive notice that older set and the one Paradroid has the Trinitron logo has the RGB logo next to 'Trinitron', my Sony downstairs doesnt have this and just has 'Trinitron'. I wondering if this would be a good way to tell if your getting a set with pots!??

[retronerd]

can anyone help me to calibrate modelines so ex mortal kombat and other games fit?

[Paradroid]

So would all AE1 chassis being pot based for display options?

I'd be surprised if they weren't! In all the TVs I've opened up (lots by now), if it says e.g. Loewe E3000 chassis, the mainboard looks exactly the same regardless of the cosmetic appearance from the outside. Same with Grundig/Siemens/Blaupunkt.

I maybe well off here but i think an easy way to tell if a Sony Trinitron TV would have pots rather than an OSD for display option is the Trinitron logo on the TV itself!

Could point us in the right direction but the foolproof way is to cross reference the model number with the chassis type. If I continue to be impressed by this AE-1 then I reckon I might consider compiling a list of Sonys with desirable chassis types. apfelanni made a long list of models with the FE-1 chassis, can't see why we couldn't do the same for some of the older types. Perhaps apfelanni already has a list... he's a mysterious man, I wouldn't put it past him.

There are so many things to comment on about this AE-1 chassis! The build quality is completely over the top. Heat sinks all over the place. Shielding everywhere. Closer to military spec than consumer spec. No wonder it's so damn heavy! Later TVs aren't built like this...

Lucky for me, the original owner must of been a neat freak: no grimy stuff inside, just fine layers of dust. I reckon it'll blow right off once I fire up the air compressor. Just gotta be careful to keep those magnetic strips in place.

[lettuce]

Lucky for me, the original owner must of been a neat freak: no grimy stuff inside, just fine layers of dust. I reckon it'll blow right off once I fire up the air compressor. Just gotta be careful to keep those magnetic strips in place.

Yeah i bet it hasnt hardly had any use, otherwise the 'Its a Sony' sticker still wouldnt be in place, the heat from the screen would of lifted that off years ago otherwise!!!, lucky bugger!!

EDIT: Could be a start.......

http://english.electronica-pt.com/electronics-search.php?find=AE1%20%28SCC-B14X

[lettuce]

The Sony KV29F1U model im looking at has the BE3D chassis!!!, so im clueless as to what that chassis is?

[princess prin prin]

Sony AE1 chassis based TVs (ca. 87-91) are the best of best.

Yay!

The chassis is very modular, you have separate PCBs for AC filtering, teletext, croma, stereo, TV tuner, headphones. I use mine as arcade monitors (in a cab) and I've removed all the unnecessary PCBs.

Neat! This doesn't cause any problems? I may have to ask you more about this in the future..

No problems at all. The only sub-boards you really need are F1 (AC filtering), B1 (the RGB signals go through it before going to the neckboard) and in your case also D1 (vertical deflection). The 25" version has the vertical deflection components on the main board (D). As long as you have 12V at scart 8 the TV will turn on without anything else. The J1 board (scart and audio connectors) is weird: it isn't disconnectable but it folds like a book thanks to hinge connectors.

Later versions of the chassis (AE1B and AE1C) have the AC filtering section integrated in the main board and a few components (mostly resistors) surface-mounted as opposed to the AE1 which has only through-hole components. AE1C (found for instance in the KV-A2511, KV-A2521, KV-M2521) still has pots for everything. TVs with this chassis have an all plastic case.

[retronerd]

I get it! I have to figure it out on my own!

[Calamity]

can anyone help me to calibrate modelines so ex mortal kombat and other games fit?

I've looked through this thread for you, this is the setup we came up with for lettuce's Sony TV:

monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Adding this line into mame.ini should allow your 256-line games to display complete after some service menu adjustment, in case your Sony specs are similar to lettuce's one.

GroovyMAME calculates modelines dynamically, this means that it will override the adjustments you make with Arcade_OSD, creating its own modelines. However, you can use Arcade_OSD to adjust modelines manually and use these with other MAME builds, in a static way.

[Paradroid]

@princess prin prin: thanks for the detailed info on what boards can be safely removed from the AE-1. Also, thanks for going over some of the differences between the models. If the unit I have is anything to go by, I imagine the whole range would be quite desirable for classic gaming.

I'm impressed by your knowledge in this area and bet you've had quite a SCART adventures in order to learn so much and reach your conclusion regarding the image quality of these Sonys. I'm tipping you're based in Europe (Germany?) somewhere...

Anyway, thanks again! Hope you have time to stop by and fill us in on more SCART related topics in the future!

[lettuce]

Paradroid, any chance of doing a indepth guide on how you modded your Blaupunkt TV with the control knobs on the front of the TV? Or if you decided to do the same with your new Sony!?

[Paradroid]

Hey lettuce! Just a matter of time for both...

I have two Siemens TVs here with the exact same chassis as that Blaupunkt. That means I can document the process right from the very start.

As for the Sony, I'll do something similar once I've have a chance to work out what each pot does. It might take me a little longer to work out where to put the controls and how to disassemble that almighty beast!

[princess prin prin]

Hope you have time to stop by and fill us in on more SCART related topics in the future!

As soon as I get a better camera I'll make a topic on the AE1 refurbishments I'm currently busy with.

[Paradroid]

Oh, bravo! Looking forward to that...

[lettuce]

Hey lettuce! Just a matter of time for both...

I have two Siemens TVs here with the exact same chassis as that Blaupunkt. That means I can document the process right from the very start.

As for the Sony, I'll do something similar once I've have a chance to work out what each pot does. It might take me a little longer to work out where to put the controls and how to disassemble that almighty beast!

Good to hear!. I managed to score a Sony KV-X2532U today (I have 3 Sonys now, all with different chassis) that apparently has the AE-1 chassis in so ill look forward to how you tackle it  

[Paradroid]

I managed to score a Sony KV-X2532U today (I have 3 Sonys now, all with different chassis) that apparently has the AE-1 chassis

Oh, beautiful! Gee, that was quick! Didn't take you long at all to hunt that down! Nice work.

Okay, maybe I'll try to get into this sooner rather than later... we'll see how time goes.

[lettuce]

Now i thought the picture on my other 2 Sony Tv was outstanding, but the picture from my Kv-X2532U which has the AE-1 chassis is even better still it is super super sharp on the windows desktop. But it appears to have a slight display problem. It is fine on the SNES, but when using the PC it has a kind of rolling screen problem...expect the screen isnt rolling but there brightness is rolling behind the screen...its hard to explain but ill try and take a vid of it

EDIT: ok heres a vid of the problem, you'll notice the effect going diagonally down across the screen, it more noticable in real life.



Any ideas?

[retronerd]

This line monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 wasnt working for me, how do i find the right values for my tv?

[lettuce]

This line monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 wasnt working for me, how do i find the right values for my tv?

Whats your TV doing?

Go back to basic's and use the default monitor_specs line......

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

[Calamity]

This line monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 wasnt working for me, how do i find the right values for my tv?

retronerd, be aware 'the right values' might not exist at all. So by not working you mean they still don't show 256 lines or something else?

[retronerd]

The problem is that for example tmnt or Sf2 works great, but when i play mk, or mk2 3cm of the screen is cutt off in the bottom! to get it correct i have to calibrate the imag in the service Menu! every other resolution works great that i have tested! Maybe this isnt something wrong? is it normal that i need to calibrate it in the service menu to get mk perfect?

[Calamity]

The problem is that for example tmnt or Sf2 works great, but when i play mk, or mk2 3cm of the screen is cutt off in the bottom! to get it correct i have to calibrate the imag in the service Menu! every other resolution works great that i have tested! Maybe this isnt something wrong? is it normal that i need to calibrate it in the service menu to get mk perfect?

Hi retronerd,

Yes, that's normal I'm afraid. Those games (mk, mk2, etc) are 256 lines tall, that's too many more lines than 224 (sf2), so it's normal that the TV needs to be manually adjusted for each situation. So if that you are able to get it correct for 256 lines after calibration, then the monitor_specs are working. Something different would be that despite manual calibration you wouldn't manage to get the picture fit the screen.

[retronerd]

Alright!

If i want to play tekken for example, can i edit groovy mame so 3D games is using direct 3D instead of directDraw?

Thanks!

[Calamity]

Alright!

If i want to play tekken for example, can i edit groovy mame so 3D games is using direct 3D instead of directDraw?

Thanks!

Yes, you can make a specific ini file for the rom or set of roms (driver) you want to use different options. However using Direct3D won't improve performance of 3D games in MAME, if that's what you're intending. For 3D games, better use -triplebuffer instead of -syncrefresh unless you can get a solid 100% speed.

[retronerd]

Thanks! Where shall the ini file be? can you post the ini file here so i can see how it shall be? sorry for my bad english....

[Calamity]

You just make an ini file with the name of the rom, for instance tekken.ini, and you place it inside the .\ini folder, and you write inside the options you want (these will override the ones in mame.ini):

Code: (tekken.ini) [Select]

triplebuffer 1
syncrefresh 0

[retronerd]

i dont hade an ini folder? only an cfg folder!

[Calamity]

Then just create it

[retronerd]

Thanks Calamity it works great

[retronerd]

When i update Groovymame to a newer version, do i just replace the mame.exe or do i have to make an new xml and ini file?
thanks!

[kourampies]

Hello everyone,

I decided to ask for some help, since seems Im stuck with a small 21" TV, because I cant find anything better to buy, so I want to get the best result from it.

The TV is a Philips 21PT5305/01, I think the chassis is L9.1 AA. Its a recent model, I think from around 2000. Im using an ATI x1600, with the UMSA. The OS is Windows XP, with CRT Emu drivers 6.5.

To be honest, everything kinda worked out of the box, without tweaking anything. I got big overscan on most modes, but fixed it through the service menu, through trial and error, since the Philips service menu uses codenames for everything.

The problem is that there are many options to tweak except the obvious size and position, and many slightly affect the geometry. The most common problem is the upper portion of the screen being compressed, for example a 1" wide orizontal line on the top, containing more pixels than a same size line on the bottom of the screen.

This can be fixed, but requires lots of tweaking on the service menu, while displaying a test pattern, and it isnt something easily done whenever switching a game, since each video mode looks different.

So I was messing around with Arcade OSD, and saw the ability to tweak some modelines. I didnt get any real good results, since once again I wasnt really sure what to tweak, but I did see that It could affect geometry. But I dont know how to do it, and I didnt even see on the list some modes I use frequently, like the capcom CPS 384x224.

So is there any chance to adjust the modes geometry through ArcadeOSD, and use the adjusted results in GroovyMame, without the need for big adjustments on the service menu each time?

Or in the worst case, at least have all the modes be correctly centered, and use the service menu only to adjust size, with the options that dont realy mess with the geometry?

I ll be happy to do any tests and suggestions you want like others did with their monitors, so we can get some more info about the monitors capabilities.

Also, In a slightly unrelated matter, I think the colors seem a little too vivid. Off course, I havent seen a real and well maintaned Arcade machine for more than 10 years, and the ones I used to play were in quite bad shape, so probably the monitors looked worse than intended. I cant adjust it on the image properties menu. Its not brightness or contrast or even color. It justs look too vivid sometimes. Perhaps its my eyes being used to the LCD monitors of my computer, for more than 10 hours a day for years?

[kourampies]

Forgot to mention I also have a Sony Trinitron 21" from 87 I think. That tv was WAY ahead of its time back then, with teletext, quadraphonic sound, and many other features.

But its really old and worn, some edges of the screen have distorted colors etc. Also I suck at soldering, modding, etc, and Im really afraid of opening a high voltage CRT tv, and there is no service menu on this one

[kourampies]

Some more info on the Sony. Its a KV-21XSTD from 1987. I decided to give it a spin since I saw trinitrons get much love for MAME use.

Amazingly, although its in quite bad shape, with some discoloration on the top left edge, It displays way better than the new Philips. No extremely vivid colors, much more pleasant to the eye, and looks exactly like an arcade monitor. Also the Interlaced modes flicker a lot less. Seems like all the buzz regarding the Trinitrons back then was well deserved.

[Paradroid]

I'd be interested to see some photos of this up and running... curious!

[kourampies]

Regarding the Sony, I put it back on the basement after messing with it, sadly without taking a photo. But I will get it running again soon, since I share your enthusiasm on this one.

Regarding the Philips, I found the exact service manual for my chassis, and all the explanations for the service mode codenames and adjustments. Tweaked it a lot to get the geometry right (using a 320x224 mode, since the ones I usually use for gaming are 224p.), and I got it to a point where the geometry is perfect, and you only need to mess with vertical size, and sometimes horizontal position when using completely different modes.
I also noted what are the codenames for size and position, so I dont screw up the geometry again. So more or less this is a good solution.

I would be happy to take photos of both the Philips and the Sony, and also some other smaller TVs I have on the basement, but I would like some tips on how to take the photo. I have a Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX35, its an old point n shoot, but with a very good sensor. Trying automatic doesnt give very good results, and on manual It gets too bright, or you get that "CRT screen on Video" effect.

My Galaxy Nexus works better, but its not sharp enough for you to enjoy the scanlines :p

[Paradroid]

Lots of the photos on my blog were actually taken with a Galaxy Nexus! 

The best results involve pausing MAME, setting up a tripod and using a shutter delay.

[kourampies]

Here are some quick pics taken with the Nexus, of the Philips in action, after the geometry tweaking. Notice that all of the games shown have perfect geometry position and size, without any adjustments!
Also note the emulation pc, and its luxury case

[Paradroid]

Very nice indeed! Great geometry, focus and colours! Looks like you're onto a winner there! I'd be interested to see how it goes with tricky games like R-Type and Mortal Kombat. They're the ones that I struggled with on modern Loewe TVs.

Harder to find Sony and Philips with SCART here in Australia although they do come up from time-to-time.

Also, since you've done the hard yards, you might consider posting a list of the deciphered service codes so that Googlers will pick them up here in the future.

Thanks the pics!

[kourampies]

This Philips is a winner indeed! After deciphering the values on the service menu, and some long tweaking and disabling some stuff on the service menu like digital contrast enhacements and that kind of stuff, I managed to get rid of the extremely vivid colors, with some more adjustments on the regular picture menu. Now the image is perfect, like a brand new arcade monitor!

Mortal Kombat and other games with weird resolutions and refresh rates run fine, no geometry distortion or other weirdness at all! I took those pics quickly, without any further adjustments on the size/position, since all of those games positioned perfectly on the screen.
I will take some pics of MK and other games with more exotic video modes, tweaking the size and position for each one tonight.
Also I never got any resolution not syncing, like it happened in the Sony.

Here in Greece ALL TVs have SCART but sadly, most people throwed them in the garbage quite long ago, in order to get LCD ones. I ve been trying to get a 29" one for quite some time, offering a decent amount of money, and had no luck at all

[Calamity]

Congratulations kourampies, that Philips TV looks great! So you mean that for switching from 224p lines to 256p lines (rtype) you only need to adjust v-size in the service menu?

[kourampies]

Congratulations kourampies, that Philips TV looks great! So you mean that for switching from 224p lines to 256p lines (rtype) you only need to adjust v-size in the service menu?

Only the Vertical size and Vertical position need adjusment in most cases! Check the pictures:

R-Type with the 224 lines geometry configuration:



Mortal Kombat with the 224 lines geometry configuration (I think the slightly off centered image is caused by GroovyMAME using 400x256 instead of 399x253, could I perhaps force it to use 399x253?):



Super Pang with the 224 lines geometry configuration:



R-Type reconfigured for 256 lines (Vertical size set to 0, pincushion needs to be a little more round on all modes, haven't got to it yet, on this tv this doesnt need to be reconfigured for every mode)



I think the results are great!

[kourampies]

can anyone help me to calibrate modelines so ex mortal kombat and other games fit?

I've looked through this thread for you, this is the setup we came up with for lettuce's Sony TV:

monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Adding this line into mame.ini should allow your 256-line games to display complete after some service menu adjustment, in case your Sony specs are similar to lettuce's one.

GroovyMAME calculates modelines dynamically, this means that it will override the adjustments you make with Arcade_OSD, creating its own modelines. However, you can use Arcade_OSD to adjust modelines manually and use these with other MAME builds, in a static way.

By the way I used this for my Philips TV, changign 49.50 to 49, and got a little smaller, I think better looking picture (I had it in auto previously). I prefer it this way since previously the vertical size was set to 0, and didnt leave much room for adjustments.  (Also when using the tv for anything else, the image was way too compressed.)

If you could suggest and even more customized mode for my tv I would be grateful.

[Calamity]

By the way I used this for my Philips TV, changign 49.50 to 49, and got a little smaller, I think better looking picture (I had it in auto previously). I prefer it this way since previously the vertical size was set to 0, and didnt leave much room for adjustments.  (Also when using the tv for anything else, the image was way too compressed.)

If you could suggest and even more customized mode for my tv I would be grateful.

The relevant vertical size values are these (specially the second one):

monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

The keep short, the lowest both of those values can be, the best use you'll be doing of your CRT's resolution. The second value is the vertical back porch and needs to be long enough to allow for the CRT beam to reach the top of the screen. You can explore the capacity of your particular CRT by testing different values with Arcade_OSD. However, in your case, I don't think it will be worth the pain.

This is important: notice that you shouldn't be able to change vertical size through 'software'. You wouldn't expect this from an 'ortodox' CRT device. We can't do that with arcade monitors.

BUT, it turns out that many TVs do some auto-adjustments of the vertical size on their own, depending on some features of the incoming signal. All Sony TVs we've been testing here seem to do this. We think it has to do to original PAL/NTSC auto-adjustment.

This apparently nice feature causes a lot of headaches to the user as it makes very hard to achieve an universal vertical centering adjustment that you would easily get with an arcade monitor, forcing you to mess with the service menu all the time.

[kourampies]

I think I wont tweak it further for now. Passing the current modeline to both GroovyMAME and VMMaker made all 224p modes have perfect geometry and position, both for MAME and other emulators, and the resolutions with more than 224 lines can easily be adjusted by tweaking the vertical size and position on the service menu. Thanks for the info!

[Endprodukt]

I picked up my new Sony 25" tv (kv-25c5d) . its a trinitron with an fe-1 chassis. I'm trying to set up the geomitry through the service menu. I was wondering what I should use as a picture to do that?  My windows resolution is 640x480 so I used that mode in arcade os to set the geometry. Works okay but isn't perfect in windows.

I was also wondering why I get  borders on top and bottom in capcom games? They seem to fill out the screen for others without any monitor specs. Horizontal porch is good though.

 I'm a bit worried though. ..the picture isn't as sharp as I hoped.  I played around with the focus and its better now but not perfect. Any ideas?

[Calamity]

I was also wondering why I get  borders on top and bottom in capcom games? They seem to fill out the screen for others without any monitor specs. Horizontal porch is good though.

Capcom games are 224 lines tall, you need to use your TV's service menu to stretch the vertical amplitude in order to fill the screen for those games.

[Endprodukt]

Okay, thanks! I just hope I can get a sharper picture... Any advice on that?

[Calamity]

Okay, thanks! I just hope I can get a sharper picture... Any advice on that?

Is that an overall problem (CRT) or just some games are affected (software)?

[Endprodukt]

seems to be overall. I allready tried to get the focus better but it seems like as there is some filtering going on. I'm comparing to my second tv which was a dirt cheap 25" crt that seems to look better (but can't produce sound when switchres is on... remember ?).

[Endprodukt]

Ok I went back to my old tv (thomson crt with a beko chassis) and I'm having a great picture but some trouble with vertical (and some horizontal) games. It seems like the tv actually fits the screen vertically. Works on some games but not on all. I have the problem that the bottom of the screen is distorted, looks like that:



It's a little hard to setup the tv's geometry because I have different settings for 50 and 60hz. This is an advantage for some stuff though. Maybe someone has an idea how I can get rid of the distortion?

[Calamity]

Hi Endprodukt,

That problem might have no solution, it seems to be related to the digital chassis that TV has. Try to play with the vertical porch values in Arcade_OSD for one of the 256 lines to see if you can achieve something interesting, anyway. Do 224/240-line resolutions have this problem too?

[kourampies]

I can get for free 3 big CRT tvs, 32" or even more. They are 16:9, dont know if they are 100hz, and they are from a Carrefour In store brand called Bluesky, from the early 00s. They are definetely a digital chassis, but I have no idea whats the OEM, and how they handle 4:3. Im 99% sure there is some way to force 4:3 on them, and I dont have any problem with the black borders on the sides. Do you think I can do anything interesting with them?

I will definetely get 1 for experimenting, but I can only do one trip to get them, so I either get them all the first time, or I get one. My back is killing me and I dont have much free space in here, do you think its worth getting all 3?

[Paradroid]

Back when I first got into SCART TVs I hauled a 16:9 Toshiba in from the street. It was the first TV that I managed to get VGA to SCART working on. I've tried other widescreens such as the Loewe Xelos and Sony KV-HR32M31. The Sony was okay in RGBHV mode but the Loewe was awful! These chassis types tend to have a lot of processing going on and are a world away from earlier analog and digital chassis 4:3 TVs.

Personally, I don't think they're much use for retro gaming. Maybe they're good for running PC games on a CRT or using your computer as a HTPC but I wouldn't bother running GroovyMAME on one of these beasts.

If you're up for experimenting, grab one! Personally, I wouldn't bother with all 3 though...

[kourampies]

I just got a Hitachi CP2856 4:3. Its almost unused, and it looks beautiful. It also has a service menu that supports all kinds of adjustments, really easily. But it doesnt turn on. Some kind of power protection kicks in and turns it back off before it starts running

What a shame, and I was so happy when I was carrying this beast home that I almost forgot how badly my back hurt 

[Paradroid]

I know how you feel... Sucks when you find a great unit and it dies (or you kill it ). I'm still kicking myself for accidentally smoking this one.

[kourampies]

I know how you feel... Sucks when you find a great unit and it dies (or you kill it ). I'm still kicking myself for accidentally smoking this one.

Perhaps I ll try to repair it myself, since repairing it in a store will be expensive, and I cant say I really trust them, and also a big fuss due to its size. The service manual is excellent and very easy even for someone with absolutely no experience, and I can borrow an oscilloscope from a friend. But I suck at any kind of craft/soldering/mending, and the CRT high voltage and discharge scares the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of me. But still,  I think I ll might try it. I just want to mess with it it, It looks amazing even when shut down.

[Endprodukt]

I just scored a NOS 25" Arcade Monitor from a Company called "Monitor" that actually built 1:1 Hantarex Polo. I've setup everything that came up in this thread and it's working awesome for the most part. I just have some trouble with some games like Neo Geo stuff. Most games are centered horizontaly and line up perfectly... like MK, SF and many others. Neo Geo is just off. Usually it's too small and I have a pretty big border on the left and some on the right. What can I do about it?

[Endprodukt]

So I checked many games and they're all over the place horizontaly. Some fit perfectly, some are just too small. Is that normal?

[Endprodukt]

Okay I realize it's depending on the game i I have borders horizontaly. What would be the best mode to check the center horizontaly on my arcade monitor before setting up the geometry in arcade osd?

[Calamity]

Okay I realize it's depending on the game i I have borders horizontaly. What would be the best mode to check the center horizontaly on my arcade monitor before setting up the geometry in arcade osd?

Usually you get more accurate average values when you use a high-horizontal resolution mode. This is so because we can only adjust horizontal values by using blocks of 8 pixels (characters), so the highest the resolution the finest the granularity and the values reported will be more representative as reference ones. Once you get that reference modeline perfectly centered with Arcade_OSD, write down the values and use them as input for a custom monitor_specs line. That will produce modelines with borders close to the reference ones. Don't expect perfection. However if you keep getting modes that are badly cropped or have uneven borders bigger than 2cm then something is going wrong. Not all monitors behave the same. Some are sensitive to hfreq differences, in terms of horizontal shifting. For these cases you need to set up a narrow hfreq range, like 15700-15800, instead of opening it more.

Also, bear in mind that some machines like Neo Geo do have black borders built in on both sides of the frame, this is how the actual game was, so there's nothing we can do about it.

[Endprodukt]

Thanks,

I tested it with a resolution of 1280x240 60p. I got very big borders!

The monitor is the same as an Hantarex Polo 15khz and is built in the same factory from the successor "Monitor Electronics".

[Calamity]

Thanks,

I tested it with a resolution of 1280x240 60p. I got very big borders!

The monitor is the same as an Hantarex Polo 15khz and is built in the same factory from the successor "Monitor Electronics".

Hi Endprodukt,

I'm not sure I expressed the idea clearly. You're likely going to get wrong borders whatever resolution you test, what you need to do is to manually tweak one resolution in order to get the right borders, by means of the controls inside the horizontal geometry submenu. For doing this it's better (not necessary) to use a high horizontal resolution. Then use the values obtained to create a monitor_specs line.

[Endprodukt]

I got that, that's not the problem and I did that. I used the 1280x240 mode and centered the picture using the horizontal geometry submenu in arcadeOSD. However, I wanted to center the picture with the monitor itself first BEFORE I started tweaking the software. Know what I mean? What I did was that I adjusted the monitor at my desktopresolution (640x480) to fit perfectly horizontaly. I worked from there. Is that the correct way?

[Calamity]

Ah ok, sorry I think I get it now. Yes that's a correct way.  So once you have your monitor fit at 640x480, you launch 1280x240 with Arcade_OSD, center the mode and still get big borders, is that it? That's because you also need to reduce the values of both HfrontPorch and HBackPorch, these correspond to left border and right border respectively. Hope that's what you mean.

[Endprodukt]

Yes that's what I did but translating the values I got from arcade osd gave me borders and I had to tweak it step by step manually. It's okay now and I don't think this can be any more perfect than it is now! Thanks for all your support!

[Calamity]

Alright. There's still some room for improvement by means of the simple trick of doubling the horizontal resolution for the lowest res modes. This is absolutely transparent and the picture quality is zero affected. You do this by setting a value for the dotclockmin option of around 8.0 MHz, both in vmmaker for creating the modes and in mame.ini. Doubled resolution often result in more accurate borders for the reasons explained above. However if you're using other emulators where the original resolutions are still required this is not probably an option.

[Endprodukt]

I'm using several emulators so that's no option. I think I'm allready pretty close to have a very good size of the picture in most games!