GroovyMAME and SCART TVs? (Answer = Yes! They work well together!)

[Paradroid]

G'day,

After recently (the last few months) getting heavily into running MAME on SCART TVs, I've decided to check out GroovyMAME and see what all the fuss is about. From what I understand, it has the potential to run games at their native resolutions AND correct refresh rates.

My main setup features an ATI X300 card and Loewe CT1170 SCART television. I'm getting fantastic results using Soft-15kHz with this combination: all the lo-res modes work a treat. I also have a Blaupunkt and Grundig TV that work very well too.

Despite the satisfaction I'm currently getting from running Soft-15kHz, I'm interested see if GroovyMAME can run games like R-Type and Snow Bros at the correct refresh rates in order to smooth out the jumpy scrolling that these games exhibit when running at standard refresh rates.

So, my questions are as follows:

1. Will GroovyMAME run correctly with the kind of setup I have?
2. Is there a guide or FAQ I should read through before asking any further questions?

Thanks so much!

Dale

[Calamity]

Hi Paradroid,

Despite the satisfaction I'm currently getting from running Soft-15kHz, I'm interested see if GroovyMAME can run games like R-Type and Snow Bros at the correct refresh rates in order to smooth out the jumpy scrolling that these games exhibit when running at standard refresh rates.

Yes, GroovyMAME will create correct refresh rates for those games, if properly setup you'll enjoy smooth scrolling for all games within your TV ranges. It's more of a matter of your TV chasis actually accepting custom refresh rates outside of the NTSC/PAL standards, which is likely the case for that somewhat old Loewe model (newer digital chasis might be more picky about this).

1. Will GroovyMAME run correctly with the kind of setup I have?

Yes, provided you use Windows XP (32 or 64 are ok). The X300 is great for GroovyMAME (I've tested this one myself).

2. Is there a guide or FAQ I should read through before asking any further questions?

There's work in progress but no single FAQ document yet. Just ask your doubts here and we'll be answering.

The best way to get yourself introduced is to install CRT_Emudriver and set VMMaker up for a CGA monitor, same for GroovyMAME (use VMMaker.ini and mame.ini to introduce your settings). Test your games by launching GroovyMAME from command line with the romname as a param.

[Paradroid]

Sounds great! I'll give it a rip after work tonight and let you know my results. Thanks!

[Paradroid]

Wow!

So, I gave GroovyMAME a spin tonight and saw some pretty cool things!

A few great examples:

* The vertical scrolling between levels in Snow Bros is flawless (quite jerky with standard MAME).
* Horizontal scrolling in Forgotten Worlds doesn't drop any frames (a subtle problem with regular MAME but it's still jumpy).
* When you start a game of Strider, the caped figured scrolls all the way to the top with any glitching (this always annoyed me in the past!)

Pretty cool stuff!

However, there are some things that aren't working as well as I'd hoped:

* With R-Type II and Mortal Kombat, the picture looks as if it's been stretched. With regular MAME, the "ROM OK" text in R-Type II is crisp and defined. With GroovyMAME, it looked as if the image has been scaled. I tried to capture this with my camera but the photos weren't really good enough to show exactly what I'm seeing. I could try again if it helps...
* The horizontal scrolling in Robocop still seems a little uneven. Is this normal? It's been too long since I played an original machine to tell...

Anyway, very cool MAME build! Thanks so much!

[Calamity]

Sounds good!

* With R-Type II and Mortal Kombat, the picture looks as if it's been stretched. With regular MAME, the "ROM OK" text in R-Type II is crisp and defined. With GroovyMAME, it looked as if the image has been scaled. I tried to capture this with my camera but the photos weren't really good enough to show exactly what I'm seeing. I could try again if it helps...

Rather than taking photos, please get a log from any game that doesn't work fine. These issues are fixable 99% of the times. rtype and mk should look perfect. To get logs:

groovymame.exe mk -v -md 4 >mk.txt

...then attach the file here. We use the logs to see your current system setup and which resolutions are picked.

* The horizontal scrolling in Robocop still seems a little uneven. Is this normal? It's been too long since I played an original machine to tell...

Yep, robocop's original scroll was never smooth I'm afraid.

[Paradroid]

These issues are fixable 99% of the times.

Great! I'll create the logs tonight and post them here.

Yep, robocop's original scroll was never smooth I'm afraid.

Haha! Good to know. Everything else about the game looks very smooth (intro animations, etc.) so it did make me wonder.

Thanks again for your help so far!

[Paradroid]

Okay. Attached are logs from a few mainstream games that aren't looking right for me with GroovyMAME. They look like they're being scaled rather than a 1:1 pixel match up.

To recap, I'm using an ATI X300 with the Catalyst 6.5 CRT_EmuDriver on Windows XP Pro (32 bit) running into a Loewe CT1170 television.

Thanks!

[Calamity]

It seems like you installed Soft-15Khz over CRT_Emudriver. That's not the way to go.

You need to run VMMaker, inside the driver's folder. That app will create the resolutions you need in order to run GroovyMAME. Before running it, edit VMMaker.ini and follow the instructions inside. Basically you need to point to your MAME executable. Make sure the GenerateInis option is disabled as we don't need inis with GroovyMAME. Also, leave the option MonitorType = "CUSTOM" for now. Then run VMMaker and restart.

After restarting, run Arcade_OSD in the driver's folder and check if the new resolutions are installed. If everything is fine you should have around 160 custom video modes available (CRT_Emudriver 6.5)

Now run GroovyMAME again.

[Paradroid]

Okay! Calamity, thanks to your patience and advice, I'm a step closer. However, it seems I haven't quite arrived at resolution & refresh rate nirvana yet.

I now have a big pile of modes listed in Arcade_OSD (and quickres). The Neo Geo games are running great now but the others still have issues. R-Type and Mortal Kombat are now are switching to interlaced modes and there's also something weird with CPS1 and 2 games: the resolution and refresh look perfect but the screen goes much brighter (out of range or something?) However, these games look fantastic in with regular MAME build (I assume it's switching to the resolution that your driver adds). I've attached a few logs to see if they provide you with any further clues on how to help me sort through this.

Even though not everything is perfect yet, I'm blown away by all the awesome looking modes your driver adds. Really cool!

Lastly, I'd like to make a contribution and give thanks for your efforts. Should I just go ahead and make a donation at http://mame.groovy.org/ or would you prefer some other method?

Thanks again!

[Calamity]

I see...

Your logs show that your system is not reporting 256 lines modes, even if installed, that's why GroovyMAME is picking something else. Please go to screen_properties/advanced/monitor and uncheck the box "Hide modes this monitor can't display" in case it's checked, that should avoid the OS mode prunning. It's quite weird however that those 256 lines resolutions did appear before when using Soft-15kHz and I'm assuming you didn't do something like switching monitors or stuff in the middle. Another possibility is that the patched version of the driver is not actually active and Windows has silently defaulted to it's original version, I've seen that before, however let's hope it's not that and focus on the first possibility.

Arcade_OSD should show you more than 100 custom resolutions (the number between () ). Only 76 are shown by GroovyMAME which means something is wrong. A driver reinstall might help if something has been screwed up in the registry.

As for the brighter modes, I guess your Loewe is not so confortable with frequencies around 15,200 KHz, so let's change the ranges slightly by setting this option in mame.ini (replace the existing one - no need to touch VMMaker now):

   monitor_specs0   15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

I am the one to thank you for your patience.

[Paradroid]

Okay. Thanks for the continued support.

I think that it's time that I refreshed this system. It's an old Core2 Duo that has been used as a test rig and HTPC. I reckon that it's high time for me to finally dedicate a PC to MAME and a fresh Windows install is probably in order. It might save time and confusion if I do this before working through any more issues.

With this in mind, are there any considerations to make before installing Windows XP from scratch? I'll go with the x64 version this time around and only install the necessary drivers and MAME. Nothing else. Later, I'll add a front end when everything is working smoothly.

Any advice before I proceed?

[Calamity]

So you will keep the same X300 in the new system, won't you? No special advice, only make sure the drivers get properly installed. Sometimes it takes some pain to get newly installed XP systems accept loading these drivers, they get installed normally but on startup the default drivers are loaded instead.

[Paradroid]

Yep, the X300 will stay. No hardware changes, just a fresh Windows installation.

Out of interest, do you know if your drivers work properly if integrated (pre Windows installation) using a tool like nLite?

Just getting all the bits and pieces together now to work on this today... it's midday on Saturday and pouring rain. Perfect conditions for this kind of activity.

[Paradroid]

BTW, I made a small donation to GroovyMAME this morning. As I've said, I love what you guys are trying to achieve with this project.

[Calamity]

Yep, the X300 will stay. No hardware changes, just a fresh Windows installation.

Out of interest, do you know if your drivers work properly if integrated (pre Windows installation) using a tool like nLite?

Just getting all the bits and pieces together now to work on this today... it's midday on Saturday and pouring rain. Perfect conditions for this kind of activity.

I'm probably late. Yes, I happen to know of one guy from the Spanish forum who made his custom nLite installation integrating these drivers and it worked fine for him, he had been struggling to get the drivers installed by the normal procedure. BTW I wasn't aware there could be this issue with installation until he reported it, custom Windows ISOs seem to be more prone to have this problem, I guess because they ship newer versions of the default ATI driver already.

Seems like I'm on the other side of the globe, cool...

[Paradroid]

Yes, I happen to know of one guy from the Spanish forum who made his custom nLite installation integrating these drivers and it worked fine for him, he had been struggling to get the drivers installed by the normal procedure.

Ah, good to know! I'll test it myself soon enough...

I didn't actually perform the system refresh today. I started cleaning up files and preparing drivers in preparation before I decided to try re-installing your drivers one last time. The changes I made to the system (uninstalled lots of things and cleaned out old drivers) must have had an effect because I now have the the full list of modes and all the games I've previously mentioned now work very well indeed!

I'm super-impressed Calamity! Wow! R-Type and Mortal Kombat now look very smooth and every other game I tried was flawless in regards to smooth scrolling and no tearing. Amazing! Oh, I also added the monitor specs you provided me with to my MAME .ini and that fixed the brightness problem for CPS1 & 2. Very cool!

The only problem left is that there is a lot of geometry variation between the modes. With my current setup, CPS and Neo Geo games look centered and well proportioned but the Irem games (R-Type, Ninja Spirit, etc.) aren't square. They are somewhat squashed in the lower part of the screen (horizontally). Is this kind of variance typical? I haven't tried to correct any of the issues using the Service Menu yet. I might be able to balance things out a bit that way.

My MAME setup has come a LONG way this week thanks to you! I still can't get over how good the games look now. Thanks again.

[Calamity]

The only problem left is that there is a lot of geometry variation between the modes. With my current setup, CPS and Neo Geo games look centered and well proportioned but the Irem games (R-Type, Ninja Spirit, etc.) aren't square. They are somewhat squashed in the lower part of the screen (horizontally). Is this kind of variance typical? I haven't tried to correct any of the issues using the Service Menu yet. I might be able to balance things out a bit that way.

TV sets are often more fussy than arcade monitors with regards to geometry settings over the 50-60 Hz range. My theory is that because they're designed to manage both PAL and NTSC signals, they have some internal geometry presets to compensate for the timing differences among those two standards, which are either applied depending on the input signal. As Irem games run at 55 Hz, which is just in the middle, the TV might take the wrong decision.

Before messing with the service menu, you might try finding the right specs for those frequency with the help of Arcade_OSD. In case you find the right porch and sync values that produce a good picture, then it's a matter of writing those values down to create a new monitor_specs line that covers to critical frequency range. Thus you would divide your TV's frequency range in two or more sub-ranges each one with the right geometry settings, as we do for multisync monitors.

I don't know if that particular issue can be fixed but I'm highly interested to know. I knew a TV user (cheap digital chasis) with a similar issue but with frequencies around 57 Hz, which we couldn't fix, but at the time the monitor_specs thing was not implemented yet.

[Paradroid]

Very interesting indeed…

So, in theory, we could come up with a proper "preset" for the Loewe CT1170 through trial and error? I have a few Loewe TVs with the E3000 chassis. I assume the values we arrive upon would be the same for each TV using this chassis? I'd certainly be willing to do all the testing if you can guide me through the process. I actually have two CT1170s sitting here so I could even double check the results by switching between two identical models. Then there's the Profil, Contur, Profil Plus... all with the E3000.

I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure the E3000 service manual says that there are two different set of values saved: 50Hz and 60Hz. I downloaded a scan of the service manual ages ago but the last CT1170 I picked came with hard copies of the user manual AND service manual (with schematics! Yay! ) so that's pretty cool. I can check all that out in the coming week. There must be a way to confirm that there are two sets of geometry values by switching between a 50Hz and 60Hz and observing the values displayed in the service menu.

As it stands, the Irem M72 are proving more problematic than I first reported: sometimes they won't even sync (the screen just rolls). Other times the sync fine but with a bulging or V-shaped image.

It would be great if we could find a solution for the M72 games but, even if it's not possible, it would still be fun to fine tune settings for the E3000 chassis since I'm in a position to test it quite thoroughly by referencing all these related Loewe models I have.

[Paradroid]

Another update…

My theory is that because they're designed to manage both PAL and NTSC signals, they have some internal geometry presets to compensate for the timing differences among those two standards, which are either applied depending on the input signal.

A quick test reveals that you are correct. I tried selecting a few sample modes in Arcade_OSD that were lower than 55p before entering the Service Menu. When I scrolled through the geometry values, they were different to those that I had previously setup for my 60Hz desktop. Bingo!

The only problem is that when I bring up the Service Menu while R-Type is running, I get the 60Hz value set. That means I can't have a crack at fixing up the geometry without compromising the other games that are important to me.

I guess there must be a trigger that decides whether the TV uses the 60Hz or 50Hz settings. I need to learn a bit more about how all the values and frequencies of each mode interrelate before I can hunt down the crossover point.

One more discovery: I mentioned that R-Type doesn't always sync. Well, I found the reason why: in the user accessible menu, there is a "Video" sub-menu and an "Installation" menu option within that. There are six choices: "Video/Camera", "Photo CD", "Laser Disk", "Receiver", "Decoder" and "RGB". Naturally, when fiddling around with the settings this weekend I chose "RGB". However, R-Type won't sync with this setting! Also, interlaced modes look far more jittery with this setting. The "Video/Camera" setting allows a greater range of modes to sync when browsing Arcade_OSD and the interlaced 640 × 480 desktop looks far better.

The majority of games I care about most are looking awesome now. It'd be great if we could nut out the M72 games as R-Type was definitely a game that completely blew me away when I first played it as a kid.

[lettuce]

Thought id chime in here and ask a question, would it be better to have an install of Linix over windows if a PC is going to be used just for GroovyMAME as i was under the impression that the Linix version has the LIveCD and alot more supported fuctions 'out of the box' for instance Wiimote support for Lightgun games??

Im thinking of going down the same route as yourself Paradroid, i might get a cheap Atom mobo with intergreated GFX card etc and connect it up to a PAL CRT TV i got off ebay a while back via Scart cable

[Paradroid]

Linux? Perhaps so. I'm after the best result I can get with a SCART TV and PC so if there are advantages then I'll consider going that way. There would be a bit of a learning curve for me as I've got about 10 minutes of experience with Linux, at the most.

[lettuce]

thats 10 minutes more than me  

EDIT: on a side note, Clamity is what ATI based card does GroovyMAME supoort up to??

[Calamity]

The only problem is that when I bring up the Service Menu while R-Type is running, I get the 60Hz value set. That means I can't have a crack at fixing up the geometry without compromising the other games that are important to me.

I guess there must be a trigger that decides whether the TV uses the 60Hz or 50Hz settings. I need to learn a bit more about how all the values and frequencies of each mode interrelate before I can hunt down the crossover point.

R-Type vfreq is slightly higher than 50 Hz (55.017606Hz) so assuming that vfreq is the trigger factor that may be the reason why it ends up being treated as a NTSC signal. As your TV expects 240 active lines for a NTSC signal it will not know what to do with 256 lines (rtype yres).

Does Mortal Kombat (54.815170Hz) look fine? Is it treated as a PAL signal? If that is the case then you may try forcing R-Type as PAL too by using two lines:

monitor_specs0 15625-16200, 49.50-54.90, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs1 15625-16200, 55.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

That will create a gap in the middle, but Irem games would be calculated using the first line. They will run at 54.90 Hz (0.2 Hz compromise).

But the trigger factor might be also hfreq based (total lines related, PAL is 15625 Hz, NTSC is 15734 Hz), or vfreq-hfreq combined. So you need some patience and experimenting.

If you manage to get a 55.01 Hz signal properly displayed by chaging some porch values with Arcade_OSD (ie reducing vertical back porch by some lines) then you might come up with a three lines setup filling in the gap:

monitor_specs0 15625-16200, 49.50-54.90, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs1 15625-16200, 54.90-56.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 0.896, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs2 15625-16200, 56.00-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

You may use Arcade_OSD to change each frequencies and value separately, you just need some practice and patience, but please be careful: nothing should happen, but the risk is real. So if you feel your CRT is stressed by a given mode just press "2" so you can tweak the settings while not in full screen mode, minimazing the pain. Then press "1" to bring the full screen mode back.

[Paradroid]

Thanks Calamity. Looks like I've got lots of experimenting to do. I'll definitely try those settings you gave me tonight and report back.

Do you have a link to some info regarding the terminology and function of all those parameters in Arcade_OSD? I recognise most of the parameter names from Powerstrip but at this stage my understanding is pretty vague. I guess I can just experiment but I'd like to try and get my head around some of the theory behind it all if possible.

I'm happy to Google but if you have any recommended links…

[Paradroid]

I gave those new monitor values a go. No miracles this time around.

After playing with Arcade_OSD, it seems that as the refresh rate moves below 60Hz, the geometry always becomes distorted. Specifically, the image becomes V-shaped: the bottom half of the screen doesn't stretch to the edges and the top half is too wide. This happens with all the games that are somewhere below 58Hz.

Out of curiosity, I plugged in the Grundig I have here and the image stayed true for R-Type. Grrr! I'm not married to the Loewes in any way but they're the best I've been able to get my hands on. The Grundig looks pretty good but it's unreliable. Needs some repairs. Also, the CT1170 beats it when it comes to convergence and color.

I'm certainly interested to learn more about how all this fits together but perhaps I need to lower my expectations a little. I mean, the CPS and Neo Geo games look amazing with GroovyMAME running them on the better of my two CT1170s. The image is miles ahead of any real arcade machine I've seen in the last 12 months.

I wish I had space for a proper cab and arcade monitor but I just don't have the space to work with all that in my apartment. Perhaps a universal chassis paired to one of the tubes in my Loewes might be the way forward in the future.

For the moment, more experimentation is still in order...

[Calamity]

I've a Loewe Articos and love it, one of the best CRTs I've seen, but it's 16:9 so I don't use it for gaming. The problem with TV's digital chasis is that they're not so flexible as analog ones, it seems. They're like a black box actually. This particular issue is new to me.

Using Arcade_OSD you can try entering the vertical geometry settings (in case you didn't), enable the "vfreq lock" so you don't get out of range, and try increasing/decreasing vertical front/back porches to see if you get any difference. By doing so you'll be modifying horizontal frequency too (different total number of lines per second), so the idea is to see if moving to a different horizontal frequency range helps or not. Perhaps trying to fool the TV to believe our signal is PAL. Horizontal geometry values might also help, but not sure.

I can't recommend you any specific links, you may already know this one (although AdvanceMAME oriented):

http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/monitor1.htm

I'm still working on documenting all this.

[Paradroid]

I've a Loewe Articos and love it, one of the best CRTs I've seen, but it's 16:9 so I don't use it for gaming.

Cool! I have a widescreen Cantus that we use for TV and movies. Extremely stylish and superb image. Works well as a HTPC screen.

This particular issue is new to me.

I have a tripod for my camera now and can take much clearer pictures. I'm going to grab some images of the kind of distortion I'm experiencing so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

Using Arcade_OSD you can try entering the vertical geometry settings (in case you didn't), enable the "vfreq lock" so you don't get out of range, and try increasing/decreasing vertical front/back porches to see if you get any difference.

Okay, will do. It'll probably take me a few sittings to get familiar with, firstly, Arcade_OSD's settings and, secondly, the influence these settings have on the issue I'm experiencing.

http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/monitor1.htm

Thanks! Hadn't seen that!

[Paradroid]

Quick update...

Out of interest, I hooked up a little Blaupunkt IS 63-33 VT that I have. Like the Grundig, it doesn't have the same geometry issues when switching to the lower refresh rates! Damn. The picture fills the screen just as well for the CPS1 games as it does for the M72 games. Only problem is that this TV has an intermittent sound problem, shaky image in the bottom-left hand corner and, well, it's just plain old smaller than the Loewes.

Back to the Loewe: out of interest, I tried to correct the geometry for R-Type using the Service Menu (without saving values) and got pretty close. I think I could could get it right if I spent the time to do it properly. Worst case scenario I could manually adjust when I really want to play the 55Hz games. The thing I noticed, though, was the R-Type is actually missing some lines. Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier! The whole section of the screen that shows the beam charging is missing (even when lowering the vertical amp). Weird. I'll have to have a good play with Arcade_OSD and see if this can be fixed.

[lettuce]

Yes, I happen to know of one guy from the Spanish forum who made his custom nLite installation integrating these drivers and it worked fine for him, he had been struggling to get the drivers installed by the normal procedure. BTW I wasn't aware there could be this issue with installation until he reported it, custom Windows ISOs seem to be more prone to have this problem, I guess because they ship newer versions of the default ATI driver already.

Calamity do you have a url for this guy who made a custom nLite install for Groovymame?

[Paradroid]

Okay, to further torture myself tonight I plugged in my Loewe Calida that has a Q4140 chassis. I thought this TV was best thing ever until I realised that the subtle artifacts in the image were due to the digital processing and not the fact that the first dodgy SCART cable I ever made was unshielded. Unfortunately the "subtle" sometimes turns to "nasty" and so I moved towards the E3000 chassis because it doesn't have those problems.

That said, the Q4140 copes with the refresh rate variations just fine! None of the same geometry distortion of the E3000. Problem is that if I load up something like Rainbow Islands that has lots of simplistic colors, I'm reminded of why I gave up on the Q4140: the image processing makes a horrible mess of this game.

I guess I should write up a guide to Loewe TVs for use with MAME and, in particular, Groovy MAME. Might save someone some pain in the future.

[Paradroid]

Calamity kindly pointed out that the E3000 chassis has a bunch of Option Bytes that can be set in the Service Menu. Some of these looked very promising but after experimenting with many of them I have to report that none solved my problem. In fact, I couldn't even tell what (if anything) most of them did. Oh well. I was excited there for a moment there. Unfortunately, Google isn't telling me much about these options are for either so I guess they'll remain somewhat of a mystery.

As it stands, the Loewe E3000 TVs are a compromise: awesome image quality but, for me currently, it's not possible to flick between a wide range of refresh rates and expect perfect geometry.

By adjusting the EW-Amp settings in the Service Menu I was able to get R-Type looking square. A manual adjustment of this type is something I can live with until I can get my hands on a Grundig or Blaupunkt in better condition than the ones I have.

Also, I still have a issue with R-Type unrelated to my geometry woes: there are a number of lines missing at the bottom of the image. No matter what I do in Arcade_OSD I can't get the top and bottom borders to display for 384 × 256. Even with the TV setup to underscan, the bottom lines just aren't there. This translates to the "Beam" and score info being completely absent when I play R-Type. Other modes (like 384 × 224) show the thicker, white borders fine but not the 384 × 256 mode.

Any clues as to what I could try here? This problem isn't specific to the Loewe since the Blaupunkt and Grundig had the same issue.

[Calamity]

I'm sorry it didn't work, looked so interesting...
 
I'm curious however as any TV should be capable of showing 288 active lines if it's supposed to support PAL, unless I'm missing something. Could you do a quick test using this monitor_specs line (only this one):

monitor_specs0 15625-15625, 50.00-50.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

This should force GroovyMAME to create the modeline "384x256x50.08" 7.874979 384 400 440 504 256 275 277 312 -HSync -VSync which should be treated as PAL

Are the bottom lines still missing if we do this?

[Paradroid]

I'm sorry it didn't work, looked so interesting...

As we Aussies say, "no worries, mate." It was definitely worth a shot and since I have a backup CT1170 I had no qualms about giving it a go. I will revisit those switches in the future out of curiosity but none seemed to be a magical cure for my current issue.

I'm curious however as any TV should be capable of showing 288 active lines if it's supposed to support PAL, unless I'm missing something.

Is it possible that this is a video card issue? I say that because, as I mentioned previously, I didn't see the last few lines on the other TVs I tried either. Mind you, I didn't test by intentionally reducing the vertical amp of the TV like I did with the Loewe.

I have a second ATI X300 sitting here. I bought it cheap off eBay and haven't tested it yet. I have no idea if you've seen variations between cards of with the same chipset.

Could you do a quick test using this monitor_specs line (only this one)

Gladly! I love to test. The more tests, the better. If I ever eliminate all these little issues I may have to ask myself which I prefer: playing the actual games or tweaking the system. I suspect the "thrill of the chase" is driving me more than the thought of being able to give R-Type a blast ever so often.

I'll report back tonight after I punch in that monitor spec.

Thanks again!

[lettuce]

As we Aussies say, "no worries, mate."

http://youtu.be/8kCdMfP-gQg?t=35s

[Paradroid]

Are the bottom lines still missing if we do this?

No. As you predicted, that forced the TV into PAL mode. Nice trick! All the lines were showing. Had a nice, slow game of R-Type while I was at it.

A couple more pieces of information:

1. I think I've found the trigger for the PAL/NTSC geometry in the E3000 chassis: approx. 52.4 Hz. Any higher and it jumps up to the NTSC value set. Also, I have confirmed the geometry distortion issue on 3 separate E3000 model TVs now (I tried my Contur 1470 tonight... same deal).

2. I pulled out a Loewe Contur Plus that I have in my spare room. I bought this cheap a while ago and was impressed by the slick design and flat screen but disappointed by the woeful geometry and noise in the image. Great cosmetic condition but the guts have gone bad. This TV has an E3001 chassis and, based on a very quick test, guess what? The image stays square for both CPS1 and M72! I didn't have time tonight to go deep but it looks positive for this chassis. I'm still missing lines in R-Type but I guess that's a separate issue. This particular TV is seriously on the blink though: something is slowly dying inside as the image jumps around and changes color intermittently. However, there's a new glimmer of hope here! This chassis isn't as common as the E3000 (well, at least in terms of models that come up on my local eBay) but if we can sort out the missing lines I could be onto a winner.

[Calamity]

Ah good news then, it's a relief to know there's some logic to those digital chasis after all. So that's valuable information, the trigger seems to be vfreq based, I didn't expect that but makes sense. You can still use the two monitor_specs lines setup by properly defining the ranges, although the gap in the middle will be bigger than I thought. So R-Type would run at 91% or so. It's a shame that some great tubes are hijacked by intolerant chasis. Hopefully that E3001 chasis can be repaired.

[Paradroid]

So that's valuable information, the trigger seems to be vfreq based, I didn't expect that but makes sense.

Yeah, well, that figure was based on a quick test I did slowly raising the refresh rate using that last monitor spec you gave me. I interested to run some more tests to see if I can give a more definitive answer to the NSTC/PAL question.

[Calamity]

So that's valuable information, the trigger seems to be vfreq based, I didn't expect that but makes sense.

Yeah, well, that figure was based on a quick test I did slowly raising the refresh rate using that last monitor spec you gave me. I interested to run some more tests to see if I can give a more definitive answer to the NSTC/PAL question.

Another test you can do:

monitor_specs0 15734-15734, 50.00-50.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

This uses NTSC hfreq + PAL vfreq, see which standard is invoked (launch rtype).

[Paradroid]

Okay, thanks! I'm away this weekend but I'll give that new line a crack when I get home. It'll be interesting to see how it reacts!

[maiki]

Going quickly through this topic, all I have to say is: for serious video gaming you need genuine arcade monitor not a SCART TV, period. I have done test with Advance MAME and ADVV and a TV will never ever display correctly all the possible frequencies from 50 to 60 Hz! TVs are not made for playing arcade video games they are made for displaying PAL and NTSC TV broadcast signals, plus there are options like DVD player inputs but still these are "locked" to 50 / 60 Hz. Noone has designed a TV with 55 Hz for R-Type in mind.. Do you get it now? Go grab the Wells Gardner tri-sync monitor or similar if you are really serious about 100% CRT videogaming display.