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I would like to use a compact flash as a hard drive in a bartop cabinet, but...

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jukingeo:


--- Quote from: leapinlew on June 18, 2011, 07:32:45 pm ---
There are tons of ways you can easily duplicate a system, and how much more difficult would it be to pull a 2.5" HD and mount to an external 2.5" to USB adapter on a computer? Sure it'll be faster to do CF, but we are talking mere seconds.

I like the project, I think it sounds like a fun education project, but it's hard to come up with a practical reason to do it.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I guess you go the external USB route, I will certainly keep that in mind for those projects that absolutely need Windows XP.   But I do feel that I set up mostly MAME and DWJukebox systems the most, and I really needed an easy (and fast) way to get a nice COMPACT system together.   For the most part the Compact Flash card does cover all those grounds.   The only thing that I initially didn't take into consideration was how much Windows XP haphazardly writes to the hard drive AND that it is a bad thing for flash memory.

Another thing is that I already have a card reader in place via my USB printer.  So my main machine is already set to go.

This is also something I just didn't do before and when I saw how many games at my job were using a compact flash to load up the operating system from, it did grab my attention that something so small is just the key that I am looking for.

With going with Windows XP, there is another alternative that I am currently looking into and that is using a program called Enhanced Write Filter (EWF).  Supposedly Microsoft includes this with Windows Embedded.   The program supposed to give you more control over how Windows XP writes to the hard drive.  Now, since Windows Embedded is based off of Windows Professional, it most certainly can use EWF.  So I thought of tracking it down and trying it out.  I am keeping my fingers crossed with this one.   I am hoping that it is easy to set up.

At work I do have several machines that use a Compact Flash card with Windows XP Embedded and these are machines that are pounded on day in, day out by kids.  So if a Compact Flash based system can last in that environment, then it is good enough for me.

So we will see what happens if I can use EWF.  I guess my goal is that if I can sit there and watch the hdd light and it doesn't light up for an appreciable amount of time, then I just might be OK with my 'doctored' version of Windows XP.  That WOULD solve all my problems...well almost all.

Geo



jukingeo:

EDIT:

Hello All,

Ok so I have some interesting news.  I figured before I decide to remove Windows XP from the compact flash, I decided to try out one more thing and that is EWF (Enhanced Write Filter).  This is the thing I mentioned earlier that normally comes with Windows XP Embedded and it allows you to filter all writes to the hard drive.  It doesn't come with Windows XP Home or Professional, BUT from what I gathered, if you have the right files (which you can get from a Windows Embedded service pack upgrade, you can add it to a standard Windows XP installation.

Basically this is like having a "read only" setting for the main C: drive.  It's main function was developed for embedded applications mainly to prevent someone from mucking about with system critical information and rendering a device useless.  How it works is that all system settings that were altered during a session are stored in RAM.  When you turn the computer off, instead of it saving it to the hard drive, it discards all the settings.  Thus if someone screws the system up, all you have to do is reboot.   Now taking this another way, as in my case.  I want to use the feature to prevent unnecessary writing to the compact flash.  

Here is the website where I received the instructions for doing this:

http://www.alix-box.info/wiki/index.php/Installation_of_EWF_drivers_for_Windows_XP

Of course once installed and turned on, you can turn it off too if you would like to if you need to make changes.

Ok, so now I am testing this out.  After turning EWF on, I  created a few folders and changed a few settings haphazardly.  I then rebooted the machine.   The first 'good' sign that it was working was that I didn't get the "saving settings" screen you normally see on shut down.  In addition, the computer pretty much shut down right away.  Upon reboot, none of the settings were saved.  GOOD!  Passed the first test as I know it is working.

For the next test, I disconnected the network cable and sat there once again watching the hard drive light.  It DOES still light up on occasion, but I have to sit for about 3 - 5 mins before I see something, WAY longer than before.  At first I found this disconcerting after I turned everything off, but then again it could be a READ function in that I am seeing the light flash. Now what I would like to see is IF there is any write activity going on by using some kind of utility program.  Then I would know for sure what is going on.  Would anyone know of such a program?

At this point it does look very promising that I might have accomplished my goal with using Windows XP with EWF.  We will have to see.



--- Quote from: ark_ader on June 18, 2011, 04:09:33 pm ---Puppy Arcade is your ticket , but if I remember you was already was looking for a similar result and I did mention it, but you didn't like the front end.

--- End quote ---

I was just reading about Groovy Arcade...how is that OS?

I read that it is Linux based, but I can't find any screen shots of it.

Any opinions?

MonMotha:


--- Quote from: jukingeo on June 18, 2011, 08:13:47 pm ---Basically this is like having a "read only" setting for the main C: drive.  It's main function was developed for embedded applications mainly to prevent someone from mucking about with system critical information and rendering a device useless.  How it works is that all system settings that were altered during a session are stored in RAM.  When you turn the computer off, instead of it saving it to the hard drive, it discards all the settings.  Thus if someone screws the system up, all you have to do is reboot.   Now taking this another way, as in my case.  I want to use the feature to prevent unnecessary writing to the compact flash.  

--- End quote ---

This is the copy-on-write behavior I was talking about.  It should redirect ALL writes to RAM.  The system partition is effectively read-only.

FYI, you can do this on Linux using UnionFS.  It's how most LiveCDs work.  With some (a lot, if you want a reasonably normal feeling system) of work, you can actually make the entire system read-only, but it's probably not worth it in an application such as this given the ability to do COW.

jukingeo:


--- Quote from: MonMotha on June 19, 2011, 03:12:16 am ---
--- Quote from: jukingeo on June 18, 2011, 08:13:47 pm ---Basically this is like having a "read only" setting for the main C: drive.  It's main function was developed for embedded applications mainly to prevent someone from mucking about with system critical information and rendering a device useless.  How it works is that all system settings that were altered during a session are stored in RAM.  When you turn the computer off, instead of it saving it to the hard drive, it discards all the settings.  Thus if someone screws the system up, all you have to do is reboot.   Now taking this another way, as in my case.  I want to use the feature to prevent unnecessary writing to the compact flash.  

--- End quote ---

This is the copy-on-write behavior I was talking about.  It should redirect ALL writes to RAM.  The system partition is effectively read-only.
--- End quote ---

So then this SHOULD do as I intended, huh?   Heh heh.  I figured there was a way to skin the cat for Windows XP since I KNOW that Windows Embedded is in use on various machines where I work that use Compact Flash as the only drive.

Since the Compact Flash is read as a removable drive, I had noticed several features such as the paging file (Virtual Memory) was already turned off.   I don't know how this will affect the programs I am using in the long term, but my initial tests seem to be fine.


--- Quote ---FYI, you can do this on Linux using UnionFS.  It's how most LiveCDs work.  With some (a lot, if you want a reasonably normal feeling system) of work, you can actually make the entire system read-only, but it's probably not worth it in an application such as this given the ability to do COW.

--- End quote ---

I have seen a program that actually installs a Live CD iso image to a USB memory stick and you can boot from that.  I would stand the reasoning should exist that you can boot this same iso image off of a Compact Flash card.  The only thing though, is that you would have a very slow boot up and you would require user interaction (keyboard settings, time settings, Xorg settings) EVERY time you boot up...unless of course you have another drive USB or FLASH to store the system settings on.

I don't know how Union FS works, but yeah, having someway of making changes and then turning some kind of filter on (like EWF) so that once the settings are made, the filter will prevent writing to the main OS drive.

Like I said above, just about all of my programs are read only.   Mame just reads roms and DWjukebox just reads music files, so once set up, they could be put on a read only drive.

Now I understand that it will only be a matter of time before even Windows XP will no longer be supported by new motherboards.   So then I probably would have to turn to Linux.   So my testing will continue there.

In the recent past, I have tried to run both MAME and DWjukebox in Linux and those attempts have failed.   In Linux I have SDLMame and that runs with quite a bit of noise (crackles and pops) from the sound device.   DWJukebox doesn't have a Linux variant, so I tried it running Wine.   Under Wine the output has a tremendous amount of hiss in it.  The issue here is with Wine as I did these tests on a modern Intel i5 machine.

I still have hope though for a Linux version of my project as both Mame and DWJukebox do have DOS variants. The issue here is that it is nearly impossible to run DOS WITH sound on a modern ITX motherboard.   The only way around this is running DOS through an emulator such as DOSbox.  Now using an operating system PLUS an emulator is sure going to take up more space on the CF card, so this requires something special of a small OS.   I once again am going to fall on Puppy Linux for this task.

So we will see what comes of that.

As of now, the Windows XP with EWF sure looks like it is a good way to go.   The thing is that I want to install some kind of HDD monitor that will show disk activity in SEPARATE form...meaning differentiating the reads from writes. 

I did try a couple programs last night before I went to bed, BUT they didn't work because they were designed to monitor a PHYSICAL LOCAL hard drive.  Since the compact flash card is seen as removable, it isn't monitored by these programs.   So I need a program that will also monitor removable media.

That is where I am now.

Thanx,

Geo

milkit:

i could be wrong.. but lots of games will run like crap on a slow cf card.. hyperspin probably wouldn run right either.. chd games no chance

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