The current status of Ram Controls:

[scofthe7seas]

(Warning! Gratuitous use of the phrase “Screwing” ahead! Not for the faint of heart.)
I recognize that I am fairly new here, so my post will mostly be devalued or dismissed because I can’t have an opinion without having been here for years and years. But I had to say something. Having read this thread in its entirety, I disagree with a lot of what’s being said here.
It will be said that I wasn’t here, I didn’t personally experience it blah blah, but I’m pretty sure I get the gist of it. This dude (Dave), from this company name (Ram controls) took a lot of money, and delivered little/no product, right? Lies, stealing, lawsuits and all that?
I don’t need a deep background in arcade building/dealing to be able to understand financial screwery (you like that word?) It’s done in every form of business possible, so the people who were screwed here are not exclusive as far as screwing goes.
So, the situation as I see it, is
Dave/ram controls screwed you all out of money.
Dave/ram controls screwed Dan out of money.
Dan gets Ram controls as restitution for his personal screwing.
At this point, Dan doesn’t owe anybody anything. He didn’t steal from you, he doesn’t owe you anything. He got his piece of the pie back from Dave, and technically all the others who were stolen from are still owed by Dave.
Dan has options here; let’s look at the options and consequences of each.
Dan scuttles the ship, sells it off in auction, doesn’t actually make his restitution back and is still out of money from Dave. (remember, this business is HIS payment for a 25K dept. Selling it like this is NOT going to get him 25k back.) (everyone else who was owed gets nothing.)
Dan changes the name of Ram Controls to Dan Controls. Is this really an option? He was INSTANTLY (and still is, after being confirmed as a different person) accused of still being Dave. If he started selling Ram stock, would ANYBODY really believe he was Dan of Dan Controls, and not just Dave changing his business name? As vehemently as people on here are campaigning against Dan now, it would be 10 times worse if he tried to sneak by with the same stock under a new name. NOBODY would trust this action. Again, everyone else owed gets nothing
Dan sells his stuff independently, not as a shop, on ebay. He would make a decent amount of money this way, probably even his debt amount back. People might suspect the ebay name was in fact Dave, but it would be hard to argue that when his feedback is consistently good as items were continuously being sold and shipped. Again, people who were robbed get nothing.
These were all options people suggested, and they all result in either profit to none, or only profit to Dan. With the amount of grief he is getting, these options don’t even sound so terrible.
But Dan took a higher route, and decided to try and make things right. He’s coming out, open and honest, and I’ve seen no actual negative feedback from his efforts thus far. We technically have no reason to distrust a person who has been proven to be different from the one that robbed you.
He kept the name, and that seems to be a huge point of contention. I get that, you distrust the very concept of Ram Controls, and that’s understandable. But what are his options? The ones above. Keeping the name is assuming the responsibility and problems that come with it. He did this understanding this fact.
People say he should make no money until everything is paid back. This is absurd. If Dave screwed you out of tons of money, and screwed Dan out of tons of money, doesn’t that make him you? If you all want your piece of the pie back, where is Dan’s piece of the pie? Is he really expected to inherit the business only to turn around and even go into complete debt himself to fix the problem Dave created? That doesn’t seem fair, or sensical to me.
The road he is taking is the ONLY choice that could be made to A: Get Dan what he is owed. And B: Get the people who were screwed what they are owed. To me, it looks like he is trying. Maybe he will be proven to be a thief and a liar himself, I’m not going to say this is impossible. And sure, you don’t have to trust him… yet, but he is really doing the only thing he can possibly do to make things right for EVERYBODY (himself included).
This is a very precarious situation, for all parties involved. I’m not saying go all in, but at least give him a fair shake. Ram controls was once a decent company that offered a lot of custom rare products. People still want those products, they just don’t like the brand.
Why hasn’t he stepped up on KLOV? Are you reading the responses here? Let him test the piranhas of the Nile before braving the great whites of the Pacific. (It’s no hotdogs/trampoline but a decent enough metaphor, right?)

[GibsonRiddler]

 

[Ragtag83]

Hmmmm, a logical statement. 

[stan2323]

 

Now I got to put my 2 cents in.
 
You can take it for what it is worth because I am owed nothing by RAM Controls, bought nothing from Dan or Dave, but I do want some products DAN sells and I will get them when I feel the time is right. 

So far Dan is doing well.  He is shipping what people buy and making good to others that got shafted.  He may be a crook in sheep’s clothing but we have no proof yet and a crook would not have taken on the task of making good to others that got shafted.  I ask has anyone been shafted by DAN yet?  If so tell us I want to know before I buy something from him.  The way I see it he owes the others that got shafted nothing.  He is trying to help them and save a niche business.  That shows he has the moral courage to take the high road.  The community needs more people like him and this niche business. 

People who are owed nothing need to sit back, wait, and reserve judgment.  People who are against doing business with him until everyone is paid back go ahead and sit on your high horse, buy nothing from him.  Problem solved.
   
Too many people get too upset about what other people do when they are not involved.  Everyone needs to make up their own mind and decide what they feel is the right thing to do, then do it.  Let others do what they feel is the right thing to do.  We live in a country that allows people to make their own decisions.   

Stan     

[bheineck]

(Warning! Gratuitous use of the phrase “Screwing” ahead! Not for the faint of heart.)

I think what you said was well laid out. Those who have seen the screwing before and swear it will happen again with Dan, do not believe Dan got screwed out of any money and is just a friend or hired gun of Dave to make the "scam" work this time. They could in the end be right, but I personally don't think that makes any sense. Dan has stopped all stupid business practices that reek of scam, yet those are the ones that allow one enough time to screw a lot of people out of money before running for the hills. Things like prepay for products not yet completed or store credit sales, stuff like that. Then again, I am fairly new to collecting and just got my license to post here and have been on KLOV for a few months so as you said some think I am not even entitled to an opinion. I think people should obviously be careful, but I think it is beneficial to be open minded. The alternative is Dan goes away and those owed are never repaid unless they proceed with legal action that will likely cost them more than they are owed.

[scofthe7seas]

I think the shenanigans will be called wayyyy before any scam could be worth it.

[dan_ram]

Many have wondered how I ever hope to take care of all of those who are owed. Here is one little piece of the puzzle.

I have in my possession the parts to build 200 Star Wars Yokes. I do have to have several parts welded and powder coated but I have all of the parts to make them.  At the current retail price of $350 that works out to $70K, MUCH more than the debt that is outstanding. And that is just ONE item. It takes me about two hours to build each one so the the only limitation right now is my time. I am fortunate enough to have a fiance that wants to help and understands how to build these controllers so it is not just me.  I am also working to complete several of the projects that Dave started, specifically the BZ bellows, the Tempest Spinner, and the SD - MH conversion boards.  Believe me there is more than enough assets in the company to take care of everyone, it will just take time.

Dan

[bheineck]

  Believe me there is more than enough assets in the company to take care of everyone, it will just take time.

While this is a great final goal, paying one person off who is owed a cockpit as a start would go a very long way to proving the legitimacy of your intentions. This I would think would not require a great influx of cash orders or some kind of business loan.

[bradx]

i have a new business slogan for your website:

"RAM controls, slowly paying back the people we defrauded, one at a time as orders come in to fund it."

LOL

[bheineck]

i have a new business slogan for your website:

"RAM controls, slowly paying back the people we defrauded, one at a time as orders come in to fund it."

LOL

  As far as we know, Dan has yet to defraud anyone, so that statement wouldn't quite fit! Again, the options are slowly, but surely or not at all. I would think those who lost money would rather have slowly, but surely. Maybe I'm wrong. Did you lose out?

[bradx]

bp leaked a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico.  afterwards, they got a new CEO.  so now did BP not leak a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico?

ram controls defrauded a bunch of people.  afterwards, the company was transferred from dave to dan.  so now did ram controls not defraud a bunch of people?

"RAM controls, slowly paying back the people we defrauded, one at a time as orders come in to fund it."

if the shoe fits...

[amendonz]

I just hope frizzle fried gets the respect he has deserved for so long.

[bheineck]

bp leaked a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico.  afterwards, they got a new CEO.  so now did BP not leak a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico?

ram controls defrauded a bunch of people.  afterwards, the company was transferred from dave to dan.  so now did ram controls not defraud a bunch of people?

"RAM controls, slowly paying back the people we defrauded, one at a time as orders come in to fund it."

if the shoe fits...

That's just silly! I don't think anyone has said RAM has not defrauded anyone. So far I have no problem with either BPs new CEO or Dan. I do still believe both companies should make the people affected whole again.

[bradx]

i am glad you agree it is an accurate statement.

[bradx]

I just hope frizzle fried gets the respect he has deserved for so long.

i respect him.

[scofthe7seas]

bp leaked a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico.  afterwards, they got a new CEO.  so now did BP not leak a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico?

Maybe if the entirety of the staff of BP were changed out, leaving only a new owner and the name, and the new owner began making reparations as well as he can, then yes, this analogy stands.

[bheineck]

I do not!

I just hope frizzle fried gets the respect he has deserved for so long.

i respect him.

[Zakk]

bp leaked a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico.  afterwards, they got a new CEO.  so now did BP not leak a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico?

ram controls defrauded a bunch of people.  afterwards, the company was transferred from dave to dan.  so now did ram controls not defraud a bunch of people?

"RAM controls, slowly paying back the people we defrauded, one at a time as orders come in to fund it."

if the shoe fits...

That's just silly! I don't think anyone has said RAM has not defrauded anyone. So far I have no problem with either BPs new CEO or Dan. I do still believe both companies should make the people affected whole again.

So BP should give something to every living thing on the planet?  Wow, that would be generous.

[FrizzleFried]

I do not!

...says the guy whose entire post count consists of defending Dave/RAM/Dan.

 

Cheers mate!

 

[bheineck]

...says the guy whose entire post count consists of defending Dave/RAM/Dan.

  I never defended Dave or RAM or Dan. Further there is no need to defend Dan, he hasn't done anything wrong here to anyone in the community. I am simply stating my opinion of the situation. I hope hope Dan succeeds and gets everyone in the arcade communities who are owed, made whole as well as providing good products that are needed.

Furthermore you know full well that my posts on KLOV are not all about Dan, I'm just new to this forum and chose this topic to start off on so stop trying to mislead.

As for the respect part....respect is earned and from the beginning you have not talked to me with respect even though I attempted to be civil with you so you get none from me.

[matsadona]

I think I lost it somewere... - is it cleared out once and for all exact what the legal status is regarding the business take over?
What legal consequences does the take over put Dan in, regarding old debts from previous customers?

But based on the rhetoric here, Dan would have been out of debt to all that got screwed by Dave if only he didn't keep the RAM Controls name and website? Perhaps that would have been the best way, based on a lot stupid comments here?
But I'm pretty sure that kind of stunt would have unleashed an even worse storm from the same people bashing him for trying to do something good...
Even though there is of course the thought of personal profit, I really think Dan is taking a higher road than most would have done if they got the RAM Controls stock in their posession.

[RayB]

bp leaked a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico.  afterwards, they got a new CEO.  so now did BP not leak a bunch of oil into the gulf of mexico?

Incorported businesses (corporations) have different legal structures and liabilities than sole proprietorships and parnterships.

[CheffoJeffo]

I just hope frizzle fried gets the respect he has deserved for so long.

 

Wait, wat ?

 

 

[nick3092]

I think I lost it somewere... - is it cleared out once and for all exact what the legal status is regarding the business take over?
What legal consequences does the take over put Dan in, regarding old debts from previous customers?

But based on the rhetoric here, Dan would have been out of debt to all that got screwed by Dave if only he didn't keep the RAM Controls name and website? Perhaps that would have been the best way, based on a lot stupid comments here?
But I'm pretty sure that kind of stunt would have unleashed an even worse storm from the same people bashing him for trying to do something good...
Even though there is of course the thought of personal profit, I really think Dan is taking a higher road than most would have done if they got the RAM Controls stock in their posession.

I'm dealing with a similar issue with the company that installed my A/C unit.  It never worked right from day one.  They covered it under warranty, until they went into receivership and another contractor bought their assets.  They also kept the same name.  Now the "new" company made a small number of good will visits (which they still failed to fix the unit) and have since started billing me.  I spoke to a lawyer and she said it's possible they may not be liable, based on the asset purchase agreement.  I'm guessing this is a similar type of deal.

I think Dan is doing an honorable thing by trying to make things right, when legally, he probably doesn't have to.  Based on that, I think he should be given some leeway on things for a while until he either proves he doesn't operate like Dave, or he proves he operates like Dave.

And for the record, I was one of the people who was almost ripped off by Dave.  I was one of the people who preorderd, and it took me 9 months, a double credit card billing, and a bad yoke that took a month to get replaced.  But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[wbassett]

I'm not sure I understand why Dan is being attacked.  I agree the people that paid for orders need to either finally get their item, or get a refund- and it sounds like Dan is doing that, and sounds sincere in wanting to make things right.

To me he has two options, the first is to take all his inventory and fill all the back orders... probably leaving him with just a handfull of parts, not enough to make full units.  Now he would have to spend a boat load of money to get things rolling again, and who knows if he ever would.  Or even if he'd want to after all the expenses with no return to put back into the company.

The second option would be to slowly fill back orders while also selling some new units.   I can't say for sure, but the Star Wars yoke looks like the price went up just a bit since Dave was 'selling' (taking money and not shipping).  I just assumed that this is to cover expenses and be able to get new units out while also getting some money flowing to keep the business afloat while all the people that got screwed are being taken care of.

Just because someone buys a business doesn't make them a bad guy or the same as those that previously owned the company.  Of course it could be a con job too... a good con man always builds confidence and is likeable at the same time, otherwise the con wouldn't work.  So yeah that could be what's going on, but me personally I am not one to crucify someone without first letting them prove themselves.

Let's just say I'd never want to be an innocent man on trial with some of you here as the jury!  It wouldn't matter what evidence is shown, I'd be guilty before the trial even started!  Give Dan a chance to prove himself.  If he starts screwing people then he'll never sell anything in this community again.  I look at it this way,  If Dan didn't take over the company, nobody would be getting anything right now.  Everyone would be screwed.

[Spunkmeyer]

I look at it this way,  If Dan didn't take over the company, nobody would be getting anything right now.  Everyone would be screwed.

According to Dan (earlier in this thread) he didn't buy "the company," he just took its inventory and intellectual property as settlement for his debt from Dave.

If true, Dave Adams is still the liable person for all of the fraudulent activity.

[wbassett]

I look at it this way,  If Dan didn't take over the company, nobody would be getting anything right now.  Everyone would be screwed.

According to Dan (earlier in this thread) he didn't buy "the company," he just took its inventory and intellectual property as settlement for his debt from Dave.

If true, Dave Adams is still the liable person for all of the fraudulent activity.

Yet he seems to be trying to resolve past issues and fill those orders, but it sounds like he doesn't have to.

[FrizzleFried]

I just hope frizzle fried gets the respect he has deserved for so long.

 

Wait, wat ?

 

 

Shush Jeffo....

...I'm enjoyin' this!

[FrizzleFried]

All this conjecture is based on something someone said... and that is it.  That someone happens to be representing a company that has had a history of saying things that weren't entirely true... a long history of "less than truths".

[bheineck]

No way, man, he's mailed some vinyl stickers so he's totally legit.

I guess Wiz over on KLOV must have gotten $500 worth of vinyl stickers. 

[Donkey_Kong]

Let's just say I'd never want to be an innocent man on trial with some of you here as the jury!

Yea, sometimes I wonder if Friz is actually Nancy Grace in disguise.    



PS: Friz, no offense. I'm a big fan of Nancy...   

[Paul Olson]

Let's just say I'd never want to be an innocent man on trial with some of you here as the jury!

Yea, sometimes I wonder if Friz is actually Nancy Grace in disguise.    



PS: Friz, no offense. I'm a big fan of Nancy...   

I am almost curious enough to google who Nancy Grace is...almost.

[ChadTower]

We technically have no reason to distrust a person who has been proven to be different from the one that robbed you.

FYI:  Dave has previously appeared on the forums as "the new guy at Ram Controls", closed off a couple minor past orders, and then took in many new orders that he never fulfilled.  At first it looked just like Dan looks now.  I'm not saying Dan is really Dave, or Dan is anything other than what he says he is, but we have a legit reason to be skeptical.  We're all in "wait and see" mode for a reason.  We've been in this place before.

[Zakk]

We technically have no reason to distrust a person who has been proven to be different from the one that robbed you.

FYI:  Dave has previously appeared on the forums as "the new guy at Ram Controls", closed off a couple minor past orders, and then took in many new orders that he never fulfilled.  At first it looked just like Dan looks now.  I'm not saying Dan is really Dave, or Dan is anything other than what he says he is, but we have a legit reason to be skeptical.  We're all in "wait and see" mode for a reason.  We've been in this place before.

When you say 'we' you of course mean people that actually ordered something from ram controls, right? 

[ChadTower]

When you say 'we' you of course mean people that actually ordered something from ram controls, right? 

I mean the whole community.  You can't take in new victims without convincing those who are not yet burned.

[leapinlew]

I think a way Dan could take orders in a trusting manner would be to use a trusted 3rd party. For example, if UserA wants to purchase a star wars yoke, UserA sends paypal funds to the 3rd party. The 3rd party gets the part(s) from Dan.

It would also be a good idea for Dan to disclose whom all is owed something as well as a schedule of repayment. Random people posting who are owed nothing aren't helping. If Dan wants to untarnish Ram Controls and begin selling again, he'll need transparency.

It's a convoluted way to do business, but it would Dan to build up trust and begin repaying those that were left high and dry.

The question has been raised "Should you do business with Ram controls?" Well, I wouldn't. At least, not without some assurances. Those assurances would need to be a trusted 3rd party, a delivery date, and a payment method that protects me. I am not opposed to purchasing from Ram controls and I'm not opposed to anyone else purchasing from Ram controls, but the phrase "buyer beware" has never been more true.

If Dan were me, and everything he says is true, I would do the following:
1. Post pictures of all the excess stock
2. Post a spreadsheet of whom all is owed what
3. Create a schedule of either repayment, or parts for all those owed
4. Use a trusted 3rd party for transactions until all people owed are repaid

[leapinlew]

Or, uh, you just pay him with a credit card and zap with a chargeback if you don't have your parts in 10 business days?

 

You make it sound so easy. I've never had to do that. Is that difficult to do? Is any one credit card easier than the others?

[upprc04]

Why doesn't Dan provide some contact information?  Most likely through PM, but I think a phone call would be a good step in the right direction.  Maybe he has been doing this with people who actually have an outstanding order and have contacted him.

[FrizzleFried]

Or, uh, you just pay him with a credit card and zap with a chargeback if you don't have your parts in 10 business days?

 

You make it sound so easy. I've never had to do that. Is that difficult to do? Is any one credit card easier than the others?

Very easy... all credit cards have protections.

EDIT: But then you're back to the whole "supporting a company who screwed the community" thing we've been discussing this whole thread.

BTW... The above suggestions aren't bad.  And every day Dan stays away from KLOV it's just getting worse and worse there.  If he's legit and this isn't some RAM rouse... he'd be best served to go over there say SOMETHING.

[leapinlew]

Or, uh, you just pay him with a credit card and zap with a chargeback if you don't have your parts in 10 business days?

You make it sound so easy. I've never had to do that. Is that difficult to do? Is any one credit card easier than the others?

You've never had to file a chargeback but you're dispensing purchasing advice? 



Dude.  Seriously.

I didn't realize I needed to be an expert to comment. It hasn't stopped you from commenting on nearly ... well, nearly everything.