CRT Monitor vs Plasma/LCD - the SAFETY considerations...

[Lion Heart]

Hi guys

Going to be doing my first arcade build and looking at what screen to use. Apologies if this has been covered before in part or whole, but thought it would be interesting...

Ok, my thoughts are this: it's meant to be REALLY bad to sit too close to the TV (CRT - old school for TV's!) as it screws up your eyesight. On an arcade machine you'll be sitting very close to a CRT screen for long periods of time - far closer than you would sit in front of a TV at that distance.

So, that's point one. The CRT could be VERY bad for your eyesight. I've heard that watching a plasma/LCD up close is far better on the eyes. Any opinions on that welcome!

Also, for computer monitors in the workplace remember the hoo-ha about refresh rates? It was unsafe to have too low a refresh rate on a CRT monitor as it's very bad on the eyes. However on newer non-CRT monitors the refresh rate is no longer an issues AT ALL due to the difference in technology. Again, opinions welcome!!

I say all this as I would prefer a CRT like a nice Wells & Gardener as it gives a more purist arcade experience. BUT the strain on the eyes is a big concern for me as I actually have good eyesight at 36 (no glasses) and I would never consider sitting so close to a TV so my mind started to think - and advice and opinions very welcome!!!

Thanks guys!

Lion Heart 

[Necro]

I believe this was disproven long ago.

Plus - if you're playing your arcade machine enough to induce eye issues, you're playing way too much.

[HaRuMaN]

Go with a CRT, you'll be happier with the results.

[Lion Heart]

Hmmm.

Interesting stuff so far!

Keep 'em coming!

Lion Heart 

[kalars123]

I think now with .142u4 out and thew new hlsl option, LCD's are going to be a real option now, I've seen some screen shots of people that have been tweaking it to all hell, and franking using my arcade monitor and then using the HLSL option running on my LCD side by side, i see little to no difference. I"m not going to change out my CRT for an LCD anytime soon but i could certainly see how this could effect how people will do builds.

I mean the reason we use CRT's is to have the closest thing we can get to the original game visual right? well if you can get that same visual now "or very very close to it" using something that probably weigh's 150lbs less use's a 1/10th the power and is simple plug and play would you?

[Lion Heart]

What's HLSL??

Sorry if it's a stupid question!!!

Lion Heart 

[kalars123]

HLSL   High Level Shader Language (Microsoft DirectX)
it's a new shader that the dev's have put in mame to more accurately produce a CRT image on an LCD

the image I've attached is a good example of what it can do

[kalars123]

and another screen cap, as you can see it's "nearly" arcade perfect on an 25" LCD screen

[Necro]

I'd be more worried about the chance of shocking the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of yourself with a CRT, having it break, cost, etc. then anything else. 

[Lion Heart]

Wow - that looks great!

My current version of Mame is a few years old as about to update when I build the cab, and that's just got the basic scanlines options.

Hmmm - I'm swaying towards Plasma/LCD now!

Just a damned shame that they're ALL widescreen these days!

Lion Heart 

[torino]

Wow - that looks great!

My current version of Mame is a few years old as about to update when I build the cab, and that's just got the basic scanlines options.

Hmmm - I'm swaying towards Plasma/LCD now!

Just a damned shame that they're ALL widescreen these days!

Lion Heart  

LCDs/Plasmas have fixed refresh rates, that means for any game not running at EXACTLY 60fps, which is many, you will see screen tearing and/or choppiness in animation. Try Moon Patrol, for example, and see if there is any point worrying about "safety" if the game plays like amateur DOS port made by 14 year old kid. It's like swimming in your bathtub just because you're afraid of sharks in the ocean.

People are playing arcade games on arcade hardware for several decades now, and I don't think there was any actual case of any kind of health issue related to CRT monitors, ever, beside some people, including me, getting electrocuted slightly, which is fun in itself. Children can fall off a swing, sure, but is that a reason to stop playing on a playground? I'd say you should worry less about "danger", and pay more attention to actual GAMEPLAY.

[kalars123]

Wow - that looks great!

My current version of Mame is a few years old as about to update when I build the cab, and that's just got the basic scanlines options.

Hmmm - I'm swaying towards Plasma/LCD now!

Just a damned shame that they're ALL widescreen these days!

Lion Heart  

LCDs/Plasmas have fixed refresh rates, that means for any game not running at EXACTLY 60fps, which is many, you will see screen tearing and/or choppiness in animation. Try Moon Patrol, for example, and see if there is any point worrying about "safety" if the game plays like amateur DOS port made by 14 year old kid. It's like swimming in your bathtub just because you're afraid of sharks in the ocean.

People are playing arcade games on arcade hardware for several decades now, and I don't think there was any actual case of any kind of health issue related to CRT monitors, ever, beside some people, including me, getting electrocuted slightly, which is fun in itself. Children can fall off a swing, sure, but is that a reason to stop playing on a playground? I'd say you should worry less about "danger", and pay more attention to actual GAMEPLAY.

That's what vsync,triple buffering..ect are for, it's all going to come down to what your looking for, both LCD with the new shader, and a arcade monitor up and downs, if your looking for the most authentic experience possible then yea get a CRT, if you don't mind small things here and there, which you likely won't notice anyway, then go for a lcd

personally I've played UMK3 through mame on my CRT, played it on my CRT with my UMK3 PCB, and I've played it on my 25" LCD with the new filter, and frankly outside of a few difference's mostly emulator related, i can't really tell the difference between the 3

[Lion Heart]

hi Guys

Great discussions - and interesting points on both sides!

On the HLSL filter, in the images posted here I noticed that it is display within a windows frame. Is this the only option, or was this just for the sake of the images? Will it display that filter full screen?

It seems that the new filter essentially makes a plasma/LCD as good as a CRT for the 'authentic' feel.

Also of course plasma/LCD offer such good value for money now as well. 32" 1080p plasma's for less than £250!

Lion Heart 

[Donkbaca]

Plasma/LCD screens are obviously safer. Haven't you people seen polteirgeist?  That was a CRT as I recall

[torino]

That's what vsync,triple buffering..ect are for, it's all going to come down to what your looking for, both LCD with the new shader, and a arcade monitor up and downs, if your looking for the most authentic experience possible then yea get a CRT, if you don't mind small things here and there, which you likely won't notice anyway, then go for a lcd

I am afraid the only proper way is "Vsync", which will (should) slow down or speed up the game that is not running at exactly the rate of the set video adapter (screen) resolution. And that's fine for most games, if it was only working in mainstream MAME and if it could properly sync with the sound, but then some games are quite far from 60Hz, so any speed up or slow down to match LCD would make the gameplay quite non-authentic. I suppose it depends on what particular games you _really play, because ugly visual artifacts due to frame rate mismatch can apparently pass unnoticed.

personally I've played UMK3 through mame on my CRT, played it on my CRT with my UMK3 PCB, and I've played it on my 25" LCD with the new filter, and frankly outside of a few difference's mostly emulator related, i can't really tell the difference between the 3

Ok. Can you please try "Moon Patrol" and tell us how that goes?

BTW, does your CRT have OSD that can show current refresh rate?

[Donkbaca]

Ok. Can you please try "Moon Patrol" and tell us how that goes?

don't play moon patrol... ever

[BurgerKingDiamond]

im pretty sure the thing about sitting too close to the TV is just something they told kids to get them to go outside and play. Sounds like BS.

[kalars123]

Ok. Can you please try "Moon Patrol" and tell us how that goes?

don't play moon patrol... ever

yea I'm going to have to agree with ya here, never play moon patrol..

any-who's no my CRT doesn't have a OSD it's a WG 7k series from the 90's, I want you to understand that I'm not bashing CRT's here, obviously because i use one myself all I am saying is that if your going for a relative authentic look the new HLSL filter can give you something very close on a LCD

Yes the filter can display full-screen, it was in a window just for SS purposes.

[torino]

yea I'm going to have to agree with ya here, never play moon patrol..

...I want you to understand that I'm not bashing CRT's here, obviously because i use one myself all I am saying is that if your going for a relative authentic look the new HLSL filter can give you something very close on a LCD

I know, and I agree, but what I am saying is that what you're saying is only about "spatial" portion of 'resolution', and that you're greatly underestimating "temporal" effect and visual artifacts that come with refresh rate mismatch. You really have to try some game like Moon Patrol or Scramble, or whatever scrolling game with non 60.00Hz refresh, to really see just how bad it is. If that's "good enough" for you, then that's fine, I am not judging you, I am just curious. I suppose it's like "taste", a matter of preference, possibly nothing to argue about. And that's my point, it's best to try and see for yourself, which then would be possibly most obvious if you test it with Moon Patrol. Moon Patrol is good for this particular test, that's all, you don't really have to play it, just see if the scroll is choppy and whether you see screen tearing. Can you do that, please?

[kalars123]

I sure will, when I get home from work and post a SS or two

[Lion Heart]

Now this is turning into a proper discussion!

Will be interesting to see those Moon Patrol images...

I'm assuming that it's not JUST Moon Patrol that throw up the issue, but quite a few games - with Moon Patrol just being the worst case scenario/best example?

Lion Heart 

[kalars123]

Ok this is the Moon patrol SS's using mame default settings "sept in window"  and using the new HLSL filter, displayed on my 25" LCD Asus hdmi monitor, not a hint of  tearing, or any artifact's relating to refresh issue's i even, ran it full screen  no artwork stretched out, it still looked and played great "well as great as moon patrol can"

[kalars123]

and here's a shot of scramble, same thing looks and play's beautifully

"edit"
now if your talking about displaying this on my CRT, then i can't take anything more than a cell phone shot, but on my CRT they play in there native resolution/refresh so they always look near as possible to perfect

[torino]

Ok this is the Moon patrol SS's using mame default settings "sept in window"  and using the new HLSL filter, displayed on my 25" LCD Asus hdmi monitor, not a hint of  tearing, or any artifact's relating to refresh issue's i even, ran it full screen  no artwork stretched out, it still looked and played great "well as great as moon patrol can"

Ok, thank you.

Is your monitor actual PC monitor or maybe a TV with VGA input?

What MAME are you running and what options - frame skip, vsync?

Game runs on constant 100%, faster, it changes? No sound glitches?

[kalars123]

My monitor is a standard computer montitor, 1920x1080 max, and I used .142u4 release with default mame settings didnt change anything, sept I enabled HLSL

[Vulgar Soul]

Kalars, this is one of the coolest things I've heard about in a while. Considering it's only a matter of time before CRTs disappear, I'm glad to see "arcade-look" video emulation in MAME becoming a priority. I'm gonna look up more about this now!

Question...

Does the feature have any effect on performance? For example, will I have to sacrifice bitmap prescaling and stuff to have this feature on and running at optimal speed?

Can all relatively moderate Windows PCs perhaps in the last 10 years or so do this properly (At least Windows XP and so on)? Will any special hardware, software requirements be needed?

I notice in your pics the image has some sort of "fish eye lens" effect to replicate a curvy CRT screen. Very nice. Is this part of the HLSL feature or is that a seperate thing you enabled?

[Vulgar Soul]

Nevermind. Downloaded the latest MAMEUI and DirectX and wow this is amazing stuff! MUCH better than the old scanlines effect.

[SNAAKE]

uh..whats the filter called in mameui??

[brad808]

uh..whats the filter called in mameui??

HLSL - in the mame ini file change hlsl_enable from a 0 to 1 to enable it in the menu screen. Once you're in the game hit tab and the options will show up in the slider controls. You must have mame 0.142u4.

[torino]

I'm assuming that it's not JUST Moon Patrol that throw up the issue, but quite a few games - with Moon Patrol just being the worst case scenario/best example?

Yes. Moon Patrol is "bad case scenario" because it is a scrolling game and its native resolution is defined in MAME to be @ 56.737589fps, while LCDs have fixed frame rate, usually at 60fps. So, with LCD monitor you would have only one option in order to avoid scroll shudder and tearing, which is to speed up the game from 56.74 to exactly 60 frames per second, or 107% its native speed. This change of game speed also requires re-syncing of game audio, which is known problem in official MAME build, and there are some changes in mame.ini to be made in order to convince MAME to actually do it all properly, which is subject to debate itself.

Then, there is a problem of what is really going on inside your LCD, what scalers and converters it applies to the video feed before it actually displays those frames on the screen, and how fast can it do it. In short, even with speeding up and trying to sync the game to match LCD's 60fps I still could not get rid of animation choppiness, the scroll on LCD simply does not look smooth to me, no matter what settings I try.

Can you try it and tell us what you think?

[torino]

My monitor is a standard computer montitor, 1920x1080 max, and I used .142u4 release with default mame settings didnt change anything, sept I enabled HLSL

With default settings it would be impossible for Moon Patrol to "look and play great, as great as moon patrol can". You would most certainly have scroll choppiness there, so I think you overrated your impressions. Let's try to be more specific.

Say, Moon Patrol scroll on arcade monitor is 10 out of 10.

What do you rate the quality of the scroll on your LCD?

Are you really sure you would give it 10 out 10 too? 

[kalars123]

Im realy not overstating it, I did not notice any tearing or any choppyness whatsoever, ill give it a go again in the morning and play abit longer, I only played it for a min or two, and watched the full attract cycle, I'd give it atleast a 8/10 because in fullscreen stretched, it does look stretched

[kalars123]

Ok I played Moon Patrol for an hour straight today, 30mins window with artwork 30mins full screen stretched, no HLSL, there was no choppiness or gamplay/video issues whatsoever.

My Rig
AMD Phenom X6 1090T BE
Asus Crosshair IV EX
2x Asus HD6970 2GB Xfire
16GB DDR3 2133
4x WD Cavier Black Sata 6.0 2TB drives in R 1+0
ASUS VH222H 22" LCD monitor

as you can see my rig is COMPLETE overkill for mame, however I doubt that it's going to cause Moon Patrol to run anymore perfect than the guy down the street with the Gateway P4

[torino]

Ok I played Moon Patrol for an hour straight today, 30mins window with artwork 30mins full screen stretched, no HLSL, there was no choppiness or gamplay/video issues whatsoever.

Either the game runs at 107% its native speed and you somehow managed to convince MAME to properly sync it with your LCD, or your eyes simply do not see it, but since you said you are running the game with default settings, this is what you were supposed to see:



...and to me that looks horrible, obvious example of opposite to "smooth scroll". The mystery so remains how some people can not see it, or simply don't care about it. I think your eyes could be more evolved than mine, with some kind of 'motion compensation' and 'frame-rate interpolation' technology built-in.

[kalars123]

Now in that i can see the game studder and it does look choppy, but mine just doesn't do that.

[torino]

Now in that i can see the game studder and it does look choppy, but mine just doesn't do that.

I don't know how can that be, 56.74 frames simply does not fit in 60 time slots without repeating three frames and tearing one frame each second.

[kalars123]

When I get home feom work in the morning, ill post my mame.ini and cfg maybe some is different and I just havt relized it

[lilshawn]

Now in that i can see the game studder and it does look choppy, but mine just doesn't do that.

Ok I played Moon Patrol for an hour straight today, 30mins window with artwork 30mins full screen stretched, no HLSL, there was no choppiness or gamplay/video issues whatsoever.

Either the game runs at 107% its native speed and you somehow managed to convince MAME to properly sync it with your LCD, or your eyes simply do not see it, but since you said you are running the game with default settings, this is what you were supposed to see:



...and to me that looks horrible, obvious example of opposite to "smooth scroll". The mystery so remains how some people can not see it, or simply don't care about it. I think your eyes could be more evolved than mine, with some kind of 'motion compensation' and 'frame-rate interpolation' technology built-in.

uhm, guise... you do know you are watching a YOUTUBE video where (likely) an MPEG video was converted to FLV using an encoder right?!?!? of course it's going to look choppy it's a CRAPPY video!

[kalars123]

Yea but you can tell where the game runs smooth, then jumps a few frames to catch up

[torino]

uhm, guise... you do know you are watching a YOUTUBE video where (likely) an MPEG video was converted to FLV using an encoder right?!?!? of course it's going to look choppy it's a CRAPPY video!

Yes, there are some additional jumps and the original hiccups seem a bit exaggerated, but I think it was important to point attention at what exactly we should be looking at.

Ok, so... let's rate the scroll on that video as 0 out of 10, and rate authentic Moon Patrol scroll on arcade CRT as 10 out of 10. Having those limits and references, what do you rate the scroll on your LCD?

[torino]

Yea but you can tell where the game runs smooth, then jumps a few frames to catch up

I wouldn't say that video runs "smooth" anywhere. There are constant little hiccups and occasional bigger jumps, but it's never "smooth". I'm telling you, we see things differently, or maybe your LCD is doing some magic.

[kalars123]

I, starting to think maybe its your lcd not doing any magic, because even in that youtubw video, the studdering is noticable, but far from horrid, the ga,e is still playable lol, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree

[lilshawn]

I, starting to think maybe its your lcd not doing any magic, because even in that youtubw video, the studdering is noticable, but far from horrid, the ga,e is still playable lol, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree

i wouldn't say that. your forgetting the video is a second generation recode. depending on the origin of the video, the quality of the encoders (yes x2), hell even the speed of the computer that's trying to play MAME AND record video at the same time. 

and all this at 240p *sigh*

I wouldn't doubt the issues with stuttering and dropped frames you are "seeing" in this video are a result of a combination of all these things. you can't process information this much without having some loss. FLV off youtube is probably the worst quality video you can get. it's probably right next to RF directly into a TV.

the only way you would be able to see anything that's directly related to frequency VS display speed would be to have a stream of bitmap screen captures of EVERY frame being output by MAME and having a corresponding frame captured from the monitor. which is going to be impossible due to the way the LCD refreshes the screen image.

i say: if you like to play, play. if you want 100% accuracy, buy the real thing.

maybe the monitor has some post processing that being done to the image before display  maybe there is some kind of hardware v-sync the LCD is doing 

[Donkbaca]

Ok I played Moon Patrol for an hour straight today,

You poor thing.  Hopefully you had plenty of beers...

[yotsuya]

I played a bunch of Moon Patrol on Sunday. The scrolling was smooth, with no tearing, running on an LCD, Mame 142u3.

[torino]

I, starting to think maybe its your lcd not doing any magic, because even in that youtubw video, the studdering is noticable, but far from horrid, the ga,e is still playable lol, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree

Are you looking at those holes, stones and occasional stage letter scrolling together with the ground layer? That's what you should be looking at, you can't see it very well on other layers or moving sprites, just look at the ground holes and their left edge.

[torino]

I played a bunch of Moon Patrol on Sunday. The scrolling was smooth, with no tearing, running on an LCD, Mame 142u3.

Are you running it at 107%?

Otherwise, how do you explain 56.74 frames can fit in 60 time slots without scroll hiccups and tearing?

[gaijinking]

The funny thing about moon patrol is, since your buggy/tank is constantly bouncing up and down, and there's a lot of action overhead to distract you while you're playing, I think most people don't really notice the hiccups unless they're really looking for them. With that said, Moon Patrol on MAME using a Plasma or LCD is still very playable, if you can overlook constant judder (no screen tearing here with or without vsync). However, If I actually focus on watching the rocks and holes or the letters pass by I start to get a mild headache from the jerkiness. In fact, now I wish I hadn't reminded myself of such an egregious flaw in one of my favorite arcade games. But that's the trade off you get with emulation. What actually bothers me more than judder in Moon Patrol are the hiccups in the audio of Donkey Kong and Dig Dug. On DK and DD they're the first things you notice right when you first start playing. Anyhoo, I don't mean to sidetrack, and turn this into a gripe fest. But I am very curious to try out the new HLSL filtering.

[yotsuya]

I played a bunch of Moon Patrol on Sunday. The scrolling was smooth, with no tearing, running on an LCD, Mame 142u3.

Are you running it at 107%?

Otherwise, how do you explain 56.74 frames can fit in 60 time slots without scroll hiccups and tearing?

I'm just running it as the default setup, and it plays just fine. I can't vouch for anyone else, but I notice no hiccups on my rig at all.

[gaijinking]

My point is, and what Torino is saying, is that if you're running Moon Patrol on an LCD, Plasma, or any display that is fixed at 60hz, it may seem like it's playing smoothly, but there is slight juddering due to the refresh mis-match. I don't get any tearing, but if I look for the judder (watch the letters that scroll by closely) it is always there. If I don't think to look for it, I won't notice it at all, and think the game is playing fine, but again, it's still there. However, I'd love to see a video of it playing without judder on an LCD if you have a video of it. But I'm guessing yours judders, but you're just not really noticing it. And again, it's really really subtle when you're playing the game, but if you know what to look for it's definitely there.

[Donkbaca]

If its not noticeable, who cares?  Its moon patrol.  I wouldn't base an LCD vs CRT decision on some unnoticeable visual defects in moon patrol

[gaijinking]

"If its not noticeable, who cares?  Its moon patrol."

Well, that's what I'm saying, but to say it's not there is untrue. Why the Moon Patrol hate? It's definitely one of my all time favorites.

[torino]

If its not noticeable, who cares?  Its moon patrol.  I wouldn't base an LCD vs CRT decision on some unnoticeable visual defects in moon patrol

It's not just Moon Patrol but almost any game. People who care about it are the ones who are not visually numb, people who value authentic game play, and people who care about safety and wish to avoid headaches, seizures, cervical cancer and brain tumor caused by LCDs inability to properly sync with native arcade refresh rates.

[Donkbaca]

Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!  You mean if I play moon patrol on my slim cab I will get cervical cancer! 

[Vigo]

Well, people were all taking about Polybius as this fabled dangerous game, but really they should have been watching out for the moon patrol. 

[Donkbaca]

I mean being visually numb is something I can live with, but the thought of growing a cancerous cervix definitely has me rethinking the whole LCD thing.  You think I will be okay if I just avoid playing moon patrol?  Another reason to not play moon patrol in m book

[torino]

Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!  You mean if I play moon patrol on my slim cab I will get cervical cancer! 

Yes, especially during pregnancy. You have to get rid of that LCD, if not for you, then do it for your baby!

[Vulgar Soul]

Ugh, please tell me that cancer thing is a cruel joke. If playin MAME on an LCD is a cancer risk, than I think we're all due for an MRI scan.

[kalars123]

heh having that cpu running at 2.45ghz next to the boys is more dangerous than and LCD, for the uninformed, microwaves operated at 2.45ghz 

[torino]

Well, people were all taking about Polybius as this fabled dangerous game, but really they should have been watching out for the moon patrol. 

Polybius, property of U.S. government.



It has only one button, and that's enough.

[kalars123]

and a meme is born LMAO 

[lilshawn]

It has only one button, and that's enough.

It's labeled "OH GOD MAKE IT STOP"