New Product: Ultimarc GoldLeaf High-performance Pushbuttons

[D_Harris]

why is it when people release products with the word leaf in them , chumps kick off about them not being genuine leaf switches when nobody ever claimed they were  

To warn uninformed buyers who might think that they are leaf switches?

But like Xiaou2 said, it's good that Andy has taken the initiative to bring forth a product that at least partly addresses the response issues that matter to some of us.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[polaris]

why is it when people release products with the word leaf in them , chumps kick off about them not being genuine leaf switches when nobody ever claimed they were  

To warn uninformed buyers who might think that they are leaf switches?



Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

if someone knows enough to want leaf switches, they're not gonna get confused

[D_Harris]

why is it when people release products with the word leaf in them , chumps kick off about them not being genuine leaf switches when nobody ever claimed they were  

To warn uninformed buyers who might think that they are leaf switches?



Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

if someone knows enough to want leaf switches, they're not gonna get confused

That's not for you to say.

I'm an old school gamer who plays on leafs only(except for the Mario Bros. titles), and several days ago was tempted to pick up some of Andy's GoldLeaf offerings for a project, but after some research I don't think these would work for me.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[AndyWarne]

But in regards to replicating the true reason for having leaf buttons... he just does not get it.
There is a specific feel and feedback that his design will not be able to replicate... and will be inferior to a real leaf button in games that require a lot of rapidfire action.

 While its true, that Leafs are really only needed on a certain population of games... Those games play like crap without them.  So its nice to have at least one or two real leaf buttons to use for them.  Pretty much a necessity for those of us who knows the difference.

I would be interested in the results of a comparative test. To do this we would need to know which games you are referring to which originally had leaf switches and benefit from them.

Andy

[wweumina]

But in regards to replicating the true reason for having leaf buttons... he just does not get it.
There is a specific feel and feedback that his design will not be able to replicate... and will be inferior to a real leaf button in games that require a lot of rapidfire action.

 While its true, that Leafs are really only needed on a certain population of games... Those games play like crap without them.  So its nice to have at least one or two real leaf buttons to use for them.  Pretty much a necessity for those of us who knows the difference.

I would be interested in the results of a comparative test. To do this we would need to know which games you are referring to which originally had leaf switches and benefit from them.

Andy

Is this the first time anyone has quoted Xiaou2 except for mockery?

Anyhow, about those harnesses?

[Donkbaca]

The hard part about a competitive teat would be finding a person who knows enough about leafs to make a good comparison, but isn't such a fanboy that they think leaf switches are the pinnacle of human technology


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vigo]

The hard part about a competitive teat would be finding a person who knows enough about leafs to make a good comparison, but isn't such a fanboy that they think leaf switches are the pinnacle of human technology


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A competitive teat?  I'm guessing that's the iPhone autofill at work.

Anyway, you're right, but I think no matter how a speed comparison is handled, someone would call foul. And if a wico leaf switch lost out to Andy's in a side by side speed comparison, the first thing that would happen is there is people would claim the leaf was probably not fine tuned enough, or the person pushing the leaf button did not know how to properly "float" the button.

[Donkbaca]

yes you could send some to pbj and donkbaca and we can compare our teats.... er tests. and give an unbiased, highly opinionated, pretty much worthless review.  But it would be unbiased.

or someone could, oh I don't know, shell out a couple bucks and buy some to test.

All that being said, its better and more fun to theoretically pretend and test them in our head, and then ---smurfette--- about differences.

[DNA Dan]

Guys.. we're not talking gold bars here.... Skip that morning latte and buy a button to try. No amount of measurements, subjective comments or scientific rationale is going to conclude anything. I agree with others, it doesn't feel the same as a real-leaf switch. However, I would take these any day over the alternative; clickity-clickity dead-space microswitches.

To re-focus my previous unscientific comments regarding the product, these aren't just "non-clicking microswitches". They feel differently. It's almost like a real leaf switch but with a lot less activation force and not as much "transferred energy". Hard to explain really. I think for the purists, do yourself a favor and just hunt down some leaf switches. For those looking for an arcade feel prior to the '90s "fighter" craze, this is the product for you.

[Xiaou2]

Heh, well, originally as an arcade manager years ago... I HATED leafs with a passion.
 
 They got out of adjustment too often, needed cleaning often, and I felt they were inferior to micros.

 It wasnt till much later after I left the arcade industry, did I realize two very important things about leafs.

1) how to use them properly.
2) their advantages in certain games.

 And now I cringe every time I think about things like how I swapped out a leaf button on a Galaga with a Micro.

 Micros have their place.  Especially for fighting games, which require absolute precision... and not a lot of repetitive non-stop firing.  But for a game like Galaga, where you are pretty much firing the entire time, Micros fatigue your hands really quickly.

 But as said, its not just about fatigue.  Its about feel and speed of BOTH activation and recovery.  Leafs can bounce on the activation and de-activation point, on a hair trigger... with only a tiny bit of vibration needed.  You dont have to bottom out a leaf to do this.  If you do bottom out a button, it takes longer to recover due to the shock of the collision, as well as stopped momentum.  This knowledge is imperative to operating a leaf correctly.. and getting the actual benefit from them.

 Games off the tip of my brain which require fast and or non-stop firing:


 Asteriods Deluxe

 Tempest

 Joust (flapping)

 Satans Hollow (when entire lines of enemies dive-bomb you all at once, esp with 1 or more powerup levels.  You can get 3 guns total, for very fast fire rates)

 Galaga

 Gyruss (not too fast, but fatiguing. Similar to galaga in fatigue & rates)


 Some of these games have a firing speed limit.. however, if you hit something, the fire rate goes up.  If you hit a ship in Galaga, you can fire immediately after it.. where as if you missed, the next shot would be slightly delayed.  

 Similarly, Asteriods Deluxe has like a 5 bullet max on screen... however, you can fire them all in less than a second, with spacing of about 4 pixels or so apart... AND, if a set of asteriods are right on top of you, and you are killing them off repeatedly... your fire rate is insanely high and lightning fast.

 Other games are on the list out of mere fatigue for extended periods of time.

 And finally, this is actually a small list.  There are countless more games, such as horizontal and vertical shooters that do not have autofire... which are best played with a leaf button... mostly for fatigue... but some for rapid fire rate as well.

 
 Bottom line = Bouncing lightly on contacts is far less fatiguing, as well as being faster... than bottoming out a button repeatedly (even if that button takes less activation force than stock micros).

 This can easily be proven with a simple fire-rate tester program.  The program would start tracking the time as soon as the first button pressed... and the user would be required to push the button repeatedly as fast as possible for a time of like 60 seconds.  At the end, the results of both number of shots fired, and average shots per time unit would be displayed, and could be compared.

  
 My goal isnt to diss products.  Its to bring awareness to those who would otherwise not understand the reasoning for specially designed controllers... and to have parts manufacturers reproduce parts that better replicate them so that we may continue to enjoy the classic games, as they were intended to be played / enjoyed.

[Donkbaca]

I think X2 gets a bit of a bad rap, he is just really, really passionate about controls, he does make some good points and offers up some good advice and valid points, even though he can be over zealous and grating at times.

I don't think Andy ever calimed these were better than traditional leaf switches, or that people should swap their old leafs for these, so a comparison is kind of moot.  It looks to me like its more like a concave Sanwa button.  In either case, its a difference from the microswitch scene, someone should review them on their own merit, and compare it to what else is available, instead of comparing them to some perfectly tuned, idealized leaf switch that people can't really buy off the shelf.

[VanillaGorilla]

IMO it beats everything else I have tried.

Have you tried the Rollie style leaf switches? They do require more room, but have great 'float'!


http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=109040.msg1169701#msg1169701

How do these compare to Andy's new gold leaf buttons?

[DNA Dan]

I was hoping to get by without naming names of things I have tried. So far I have tried about a dozen different styles of microswitches and "leaf" versions. Rollie is the only one I didn't try because I did not see them on the website anymore. Are these still available. One thing I have noticed with the leafs repros that I have tried, is that I prefer the centered actuator (old style button), that is to say there is only one shaft connected to the button and it hits the leaf. What I don't care for are the microswitch buttons that have been converted, which is what the Rollie looks like. Believe it or not, I can feel this difference in the button feel itself, leaf or microswitch aside. Any source where I can pickup the Rollie to try?

[VanillaGorilla]

I think I am going to try a few of these out. I haven't had the pleasure of ordering from Andy yet, I've gotten my ultimarc prods from Divemaster so far. I am gonna throw a few bucks his way and see whats what.

Any source where I can pickup the Rollie to try?

Arcadeshop.de carries these
Bryan @ paradisearcade.com told me he will be stocking these again in the next week or 2.

[Xiaou2]

What I don't care for are the microswitch buttons that have been converted, which is what the Rollie looks like.

 This is yet another thing that not everyone understands.  The original leaf buttons, start out wide on top, but narrow to a thin centered shaft.  

 The difference is that happs large hollow buttons tend to amplify the sound of the button, often making an echoing spring noise.  Also, since the happs are locked in place at the sides loosely, the button can rock a bit from side to side... resulting in a bit of sloppy 'play'.   The Leafs have very little space between the center shaft and the button shell, so theres less side to side slop.

 Even when bottoming out a leaf button, the sound is much reduced compared to the microswitch buttons.  With reduced slop and less noise, they are much better.

[RandyT]

What I don't care for are the microswitch buttons that have been converted, which is what the Rollie looks like.

 This is yet another thing that not everyone understands.  The original leaf buttons, start out wide on top, but narrow to a thin centered shaft.  

 The difference is that happs large hollow buttons tend to amplify the sound of the button, often making an echoing spring noise.  Also, since the happs are locked in place at the sides loosely, the button can rock a bit from side to side... resulting in a bit of sloppy 'play'.   The Leafs have very little space between the center shaft and the button shell, so theres less side to side slop.

 Even when bottoming out a leaf button, the sound is much reduced compared to the microswitch buttons.  With reduced slop and less noise, they are much better.

Replied to here.

[usedelectronics]

I would be happy to throw any of these buttons on the machine my lab and supply "actual" performance data.
I.E.
Button "return spring" resistance
Off Axis "Play"
Switch actuation force
Total combined button/switch actuation force and distance
Return travel to switch disengagement distance
I can even provide some "dynamic" data by cycling them at high rates and monitoring the switch with a scope.

I love the sheer number of options Andy/Randy/Etc have provided, and believe personal preference has more to do with the choice of switch type rather than the switches themselves. However with some "real data" we may be able to put some of the wild rumors to rest.

[jimmy2x2x]

I would be happy to throw any of these buttons on the machine my lab and supply "actual" performance data.
I.E.
Button "return spring" resistance
Off Axis "Play"
Switch actuation force
Total combined button/switch actuation force and distance
Return travel to switch disengagement distance
I can even provide some "dynamic" data by cycling them at high rates and monitoring the switch with a scope.

I love the sheer number of options Andy/Randy/Etc have provided, and believe personal preference has more to do with the choice of switch type rather than the switches themselves. However with some "real data" we may be able to put some of the wild rumors to rest.

This is what I want to see, some independent testing with hard data - not opinions.  If you can come up with a decent test scenario I'm sure we can whip up a few pounds for a test fund

[D_Harris]

Heh, well, originally as an arcade manager years ago... I HATED leafs with a passion.
 
 They got out of adjustment too often, needed cleaning often, and I felt they were inferior to micros.

 It wasnt till much later after I left the arcade industry, did I realize two very important things about leafs.

1) how to use them properly.
2) their advantages in certain games.

How about how to clean them properly?

 And now I cringe every time I think about things like how I swapped out a leaf button on a Galaga with a Micro.

 But as said, its not just about fatigue.  Its about feel and speed of BOTH activation and recovery.  Leafs can bounce on the activation and de-activation point, on a hair trigger... with only a tiny bit of vibration needed.  You dont have to bottom out a leaf to do this.  If you do bottom out a button, it takes longer to recover due to the shock of the collision, as well as stopped momentum.  This knowledge is imperative to operating a leaf correctly.. and getting the actual benefit from them.

It takes longer to recover because you have to use more force and your fingers have to travel a greater distance back in order to achieve de-activation. This is why "No Hysteresis" in Andy's post is so important. It would be interesting to compare that one quality with leafs.

 Games off the tip of my brain which require fast and or non-stop firing:


 Asteriods Deluxe

 Tempest

Tempest has auto firing up to an 8 shot burst.

 Joust (flapping)

 Satans Hollow (when entire lines of enemies dive-bomb you all at once, esp with 1 or more powerup levels.  You can get 3 guns total, for very fast fire rates)

Actually the firing rate doesn't change. But three shots at a time allow for more hits. And since you fire via a trigger on the joystick, leaf switches are not a factor for this game.

 Galaga

 Gyruss (not too fast, but fatiguing. Similar to galaga in fatigue & rates)

Not a good example as, let's say, StarGate.

 Some of these games have a firing speed limit.. however, if you hit something, the fire rate goes up.  If you hit a ship in Galaga, you can fire immediately after it.. where as if you missed, the next shot would be slightly delayed.  

Galaga is a "single shot" at a time game. The shot has to leave the screen before the next one can be launched. Now Millipede, which also allows only a single shot at a time is a full auto fire game.

 Similarly, Asteriods Deluxe has like a 5 bullet max on screen... however, you can fire them all in less than a second, with spacing of about 4 pixels or so apart... AND, if a set of asteriods are right on top of you, and you are killing them off repeatedly... your fire rate is insanely high and lightning fast.

Asteroids Deluxe allows four shots on the screen at once, like Asteroids does.

 Bottom line = Bouncing lightly on contacts is far less fatiguing, as well as being faster... than bottoming out a button repeatedly (even if that button takes less activation force than stock micros).

 This can easily be proven with a simple fire-rate tester program.  The program would start tracking the time as soon as the first button pressed... and the user would be required to push the button repeatedly as fast as possible for a time of like 60 seconds.  At the end, the results of both number of shots fired, and average shots per time unit would be displayed, and could be compared.

These are the relevant qualities to test:

Travel distance to activation
Travel pressure to activation
Travel distance to de-activation
Travel pressure to de-activation

That's really it.

The speed of the travel back is not a factor because even on a micro switch I don't believe that anyone can pull their finger/s back faster than the button returns. And the feel or audio of the "click" for buttons that exhibit this actually have no bearing on firing rate and finger fatigue.

But I'd also like to point out that the greater the pressure for activation, the greater the pressure of the button to return. There is an inverse relationship.

Since there is so much variablility, as well, as individual preferences involved, only real world testing would really mean a lot. (And then, there is still personal preference). As funny as it sounds, real world testing may not be scientific, but it is "more accurate".

I think that Andy may be able to claim that his new buttons come close to leafs in feel without having to mount extra hardware to the underside of the control panel.

(And for those who don't know, Bob Roberts makes and sells his own leaf switches).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Gray_Area]

Galaxian is one shot at a time. Galaga is two, and somewhat qualifies.

Asteroids Deluxe might qualify, because there can be a lot of stuff on the screen at times.

Gyruss could benefit a little from this, but not a great deal.

Joust qualifies because faster flapping means faster rising.

Defender and Stargate are so much a matter of accuracy that the only help I can see from faster firing is that you might cover more vertical area in a volley.

I find Tempest is more often a matter of using spikes to enable constant auto-firing. Greater accuracy and using a semi-automatic technique would mean less shots fired.

[emphatic]

I think these buttons are very interesting, but as I just can't stand convex plungers I will stick to my Seimitsus (for now).

[Ginsu Victim]

I think these buttons are very interesting, but as I just can't stand convex plungers I will stick to my Seimitsus (for now).

Shouldn't that say "concave"?

[Xiaou2]

How about how to clean them properly?

 Well of course.  Its the latter on the list, but surely important.

Tempest has auto firing up to an 8 shot burst.

Ack. My memory is really slippin.  I should have re-tested them to refresh my memory.   That said, after reading this and re=playing... I did much better than normal.  I guess I relied way too much on autofire, and autofire does not always put the shots where you want them.

Actually the firing rate doesn't change. But three shots at a time allow for more hits. And since you fire via a trigger on the joystick, leaf switches are not a factor for this game.

 Ehh, your right. However, technically speaking, the trigger switch is a leaf as far as I recall.

Galaga is a "single shot" at a time game. The shot has to leave the screen before the next one can be launched. Now Millipede, which also allows only a single shot at a time is a full auto fire game.

 Actually Im right on this one.  Galaxians is a single shot game.  Galaga is a two shot on screen game... and as said, if you hit something, the next bullet can be fired immediately without the typical delay that is instituted.   You will notice the bullet speed increase if you manage to do something like clear an entire line of dive-bombing enemies.

Asteroids Deluxe allows four shots on the screen at once, like Asteroids does.

 Yes, and as said, this also gives you fast fire rates if you are hitting things, as that replenishes your quota, as well as eliminates the delay in firing the next shot.

 If you want another really great example, play Halleys Comet.  The game has an autofire if you hold the button down... however, the autofire rate is too slow.  If you fire manually, you can almost double your fire rate... which is needed, cause that game is brutal.

These are the relevant qualities to test:

Travel distance to activation
Travel pressure to activation
Travel distance to de-activation
Travel pressure to de-activation

That's really it.

 As said before, you are forgetting about what happens when your button slams to full extension.  This is a factor, and a very large and important one.

 Imagine this:

  An acrobat has to jump from trampoline A to trampoline B, then from B to the landing cushion C...  as quickly as possible.

 Version 1:

    Both Trampolines have 5 ft of space under them, so that even with maximum bounce, the trampoline surface would never touch the floor.

 Version 2:

    Both Trampolines have a 3 inch clearance under them.   A small hop on them will result in them touching the floor... however, still having power to lift the person back up afterwords.


 With version 1, the Acrobat will easily bounce from A to B to C,  without much loss of momentum/energy, no impact vibrations or injury. And actually is able to control his depth and speeds.

 With version 2, when jumping on Tramp A, it will bottom-out, touching the ground.  His feet will hit hard and the vibrational impact will be somewhat painful and stressful.  It will also slow his momentum down considerably... and limit his speed going to the next Tramps/Pads.

 The "Impact Fator" has to be taken into account when we are talking about real-world performance, fatigue, efficiency, speed, etc.

 Even with a very light button, with almost no resistance at all, will still have losses when it is 'impacted', as part of its operation method.

But I'd also like to point out that the greater the pressure for activation, the greater the pressure of the button to return. There is an inverse relationship.

 Yes, but with a leaf, you have to think about leverages, which changes things.
Once you get past a certain point of travel, then you only have to vibrate lightly, instead using a full press and return.  This eliminates a great deal of time, energy and the additional resistance/pressures.

 (much like bumping a pinball machine instead of actually moving it)

Since there is so much variablility, as well, as individual preferences involved, only real world testing would really mean a lot. (And then, there is still personal preference). As funny as it sounds, real world testing may not be scientific, but it is "more accurate".

 I agree with you to a point.  But in many cases, we should also explore the physics aspects as well.  This better helps us understand the "Whys" of what we felt.

(And for those who don't know, Bob Roberts makes and sells his own leaf switches).

 Sweet    Thanks for the heads up.

[emphatic]

Shouldn't that say "concave"?

I bet you are right. 

[D_Harris]

How about how to clean them properly?

 Well of course.  Its the latter on the list, but surely important.

Proper placement of the leaf switch relative to the button plunger at rest and knowing how to clean them(which was beyond a lot of operators) are the two things that directly affected leaf switch longevity and response.

Actually the firing rate doesn't change. But three shots at a time allow for more hits. And since you fire via a trigger on the joystick, leaf switches are not a factor for this game.

 Ehh, your right. However, technically speaking, the trigger switch is a leaf as far as I recall.

The main thing is that the finger you use and it's position will not allow you to fire anywhere near as rapidly as the conventional way with a button on the panel.

Actually Im right on this one.  Galaxians is a single shot game.  Galaga is a two shot on screen game... and as said, if you hit something, the next bullet can be fired immediately without the typical delay that is instituted.   You will notice the bullet speed increase if you manage to do something like clear an entire line of dive-bombing enemies.

Gray_Area was correct about Galaga having two shots at a time, but I wouldn't say the game "somewhat qualifies". Galaga is probably the game that suffers the most if leaf switches aren't used.

Asteroids Deluxe allows four shots on the screen at once, like Asteroids does.

 Yes, and as said, this also gives you fast fire rates if you are hitting things, as that replenishes your quota, as well as eliminates the delay in firing the next shot.

Well this goes for all games that have a fire button. The point is that you cannot get the maximum rapid firing rate your fingers can initiate if you are using micro switches instead of leaf switches.

These are the relevant qualities to test:

Travel distance to activation
Travel pressure to activation
Travel distance to de-activation
Travel pressure to de-activation

That's really it.

 As said before, you are forgetting about what happens when your button slams to full extension.  This is a factor, and a very large and important one.

No I haven't forgotten. All that is needed to test the parameters I mentioned above is the travel distance, which includes bottoming out. Which you may or may not do in an actual game. (This is one reason I mentioned "real world")

 Imagine this:

  An acrobat has to jump from trampoline A to trampoline B, then from B to the landing cushion C...  as quickly as possible.

 Version 1:

    Both Trampolines have 5 ft of space under them, so that even with maximum bounce, the trampoline surface would never touch the floor.

 Version 2:

    Both Trampolines have a 3 inch clearance under them.   A small hop on them will result in them touching the floor... however, still having power to lift the person back up afterwords.


 With version 1, the Acrobat will easily bounce from A to B to C,  without much loss of momentum/energy, no impact vibrations or injury. And actually is able to control his depth and speeds.

 With version 2, when jumping on Tramp A, it will bottom-out, touching the ground.  His feet will hit hard and the vibrational impact will be somewhat painful and stressful.  It will also slow his momentum down considerably... and limit his speed going to the next Tramps/Pads.

 The "Impact Fator" has to be taken into account when we are talking about real-world performance, fatigue, efficiency, speed, etc.

 Even with a very light button, with almost no resistance at all, will still have losses when it is 'impacted', as part of its operation method.

I'm not sure what all that meant, but there may be a sweet spot where bottoming out may actually help if the button travel distance is very short, and the activation and deactivation points are the same in the travel. The tests I mentioned above, along with real world tests would help determine that.

I'd like to point out that there are either two or three parts to button travel to consider, depending on whether or not the button plunger is in contact with the leaf switch spring at rest.
A) Button plunger to leaf spring.
B) Leaf spring to contact.
C) Contact to bottoming out.

But I'd also like to point out that the greater the pressure for activation, the greater the pressure of the button to return. There is an inverse relationship.

 Yes, but with a leaf, you have to think about leverages, which changes things.
Once you get past a certain point of travel, then you only have to vibrate lightly, instead using a full press and return.  This eliminates a great deal of time, energy and the additional resistance/pressures.

 (much like bumping a pinball machine instead of actually moving it)

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but the tests I mentioned above may bear out that the top of the travel distance is always used and the variability is actually at the bottom where one may or may not bottom out.

Since there is so much variablility, as well, as individual preferences involved, only real world testing would really mean a lot. (And then, there is still personal preference). As funny as it sounds, real world testing may not be scientific, but it is "more accurate".

 I agree with you to a point.  But in many cases, we should also explore the physics aspects as well.  This better helps us understand the "Whys" of what we felt.

This is why I listed the tests above. But those scientific tests will only establish the button parameters to work with and mean nothing by themselves.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[D_Harris]

The forum somehow created a double post.

[Xiaou2]

where bottoming out may actually help if the button travel distance is very short

 Sorry, but I strongly disagree. 

 Re-read the trampoline example for reason why.

 Bottoming out on a non-springy material means a stopping of momentum and loss of energy.   This is what helps to create fatigue.

 Whats more fatiguing?

a) walking on a concrete floor all day long
b) walking on a bouncy rubber mat all day long

Obviously,  walking on a mat that was TOO soft... such as to the point of being deep and mud-like, would be worse than bare concrete.  However, the clear winner here is option B.

[D_Harris]

where bottoming out may actually help if the button travel distance is very short

 Sorry, but I strongly disagree. 

 Re-read the trampoline example for reason why.

 Bottoming out on a non-springy material means a stopping of momentum and loss of energy.   This is what helps to create fatigue.

 Whats more fatiguing?

a) walking on a concrete floor all day long
b) walking on a bouncy rubber mat all day long

Obviously,  walking on a mat that was TOO soft... such as to the point of being deep and mud-like, would be worse than bare concrete.  However, the clear winner here is option B.

What's to disagree with? That wasn't a statement of fact.

And we're not talking about trampolines.

The reason why bottoming out a short travel button may actually be conducive to rapid firing is because it may actually allow the button bounce back faster because of how quickly it halts the buttons kinetic energy in the downward direction, making the switch to the reverse direct faster. (You can bounce a hard plastic ball higher off the pavement than off the grass).

But there are also several other related factors to consider.

It's not wise to dismiss any possibility that hasn't been scientifically tested. And establishing the parameters mentioned above for each button would be a step in the right direction.

Again, establishing parameters and then real world testing is the only way to determine with accuracy what you can do with each button assembly.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Xiaou2]

And we're not talking about trampolines.

 What is a Leaf switch?  Its a metal spring.  A diving board.  A form of a trampoline.   You put energy into it, and that energy is returned instead of wasted.

(You can bounce a hard plastic ball higher off the pavement than off the grass).

 But a leaf spring isnt grass.  Its not nullifying.  It returns energy.

 And also, you have to understand that a plastic ball isnt attached to a human... which is important, when you are talking about fatigue.

 Just like running with rubber soles will be better than with hard plastic soles.

[Malenko]

you guys wanna stop thread crapping?

I couldnt go through all that drivel to see if the buttons came with the quick connects or not. Im very interested in them

[D_Harris]

And we're not talking about trampolines.

 What is a Leaf switch?  Its a metal spring.  A diving board.  A form of a trampoline.   You put energy into it, and that energy is returned instead of wasted.

(You can bounce a hard plastic ball higher off the pavement than off the grass).

 But a leaf spring isnt grass.  Its not nullifying.  It returns energy.

 And also, you have to understand that a plastic ball isnt attached to a human... which is important, when you are talking about fatigue.

 Just like running with rubber soles will be better than with hard plastic soles.

And we're not talking about running.

I'm more versed in physics than you are and I can see that you have failed to understand what I was saying.(Or just arguing for arguments sake).

So let's end it here.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Xiaou2]

This will be my last reply on the subject.

 I dont argue just to argue.  I post exactly what I believe to be true.

[Bludgeon]

Walking on pavement burns fewer calories than walking on dirt, and that less than trampolines even though it's more strenuous on the joints.

Harder surfaces are less fatiguing. 

[Xiaou2]

Try working in a factory 9hrs a day, where the floors are bare concrete and get back to me. The small rubber mat finally installed under my station saved my feet from major pain and abuses.

[Bludgeon]

Yeah pain is obvious, but it's just related, it's not the same issue at all.  Either way with buttons I don't think the problem is people slamming them hard enough to damage joints.

[Xiaou2]

You dont "stamp" your feet into the floor.  Its accumulative pressure and stresses over a long period of time. (and every time that contact is a "harder" impact, its putting more stresses and damages into your bodys parts)

 However, with finger tapping, unlike walking, you are constantly pushing your fingers to their maximum potentials.  This would be like stamping your feet rapidly for an hour or more, depending on your gaming times (or the equivalent 9hr day of normal walking).

 The lesser the impact, and the more energy returned to you, equates to the more times you can do the motion without fatigue.. and the faster you can do it as well.

[Donkbaca]

This will be my last reply on the subject.

liar

[ark_ader]

Wasn't Track n Field Buttons Leaf?

I saw a kid (back in the day) playing TnF and he fractured his finger (open bone  ) by slamming his fingers on the buttons.

Why I don't know, as we used a Bic Pen to get the scores....

So hitting the buttons harder on Leafs are prone to more damage than microswitched buttons...right?

[Vigo]

This will be my last reply on the subject.

liar

Did anyone actually think X2 could keep away?

X2 is probably one of the biggest purists here, and he can't help but debate things like this. X2 saying he will stay away from this topic is like a crackhead saying he will not steal the copper out of foreclosed houses anymore.

Take a look at his project announcement from a few years ago. I DARE you to convince me that X2 is genetically capable of using unauthentic controls. (BTW, did you ever finish this project, X2? I would love to see how it turned out if you did.)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=75399.0

Just count the joysticks on this thing! (And I think this is only half of it.) 

[Xiaou2]

I got sidetracked on other things... and it never got started.

 Mostly, it was due to my health going down hill.  Found out only recently it was due to extreme food allergies (such as gluten/wheat), to which I battle for the energy just to do minimal things.

 The project was a portable solution, which is basically two control panels back to back.  You rotate it to whatever side you desire to use.  The Trackballs Flip Out. The design was made this way, to avoid having to reach too deep into a panel.. which causes too much strain and discomfort, in a very short timeframe.

 There will always be compromises... but whenever possible, its most often that the original controllers tend to give the best feel and results.  (such as a starwars yoke is much better than using an analog stick)

 If people want to compromise, that is for them to decide.. as its their panel.

 But Imop, people who are not sure about things, should be well informed, so as to be able to make a well informed judgment.

 I would have stopped posting, but another person decided to counter again, rather than drop it.

 Either way, keeping Andys thread from sinking is only doing more good than bad I suspect.  heh.