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Author Topic: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability  (Read 39630 times)

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MPH

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Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« on: February 26, 2011, 09:04:52 am »
I am posting this in the interest of current CRT availability. This is all regarding U.S.A. availability and relates to new products only which can currently be purchased retail in the U.S.

I've been conducting some current research on acquiring a new CRT arcade monitor. I wanted at least a tri-sync (CGA/EGA/VGA), preferably a quad with SVGA, and 25"-29", 4:3 aspect ratio. So far, my research indicates that there are only THREE model tri-sync monitors still in production (and possibly only TWO). The Quad and Penta CRT's are long gone. If you are fortunate to have one, don't ever get rid of it.

The Tri-sync CRT's are nearly out of production - period (see details below). If you have ever contemplated purchasing a real CRT arcade monitor, I strongly suggest you buy one now (that's my personal advice, I have no vested interest in your decision either way).


Research Findings

So here is what I have found so far. BTW, these are all FLAT tubes. There are no more curved tubes available anywhere.

Betson: None. No longer producing the CGA/EGA/VGA monitors. They sold out of all remaining inventory last month.

Billabs (Wei Ya): Has stopped producing the larger CRT's. Some 24.8" (25") tri-sync CRT's ARE available now ($ 350). I am not sure if these are still in production or not (waiting on word of that from Billabs HQ). They do still have some 19" SVGA versions, but that's it (and from what I can tell they are SVGA/XGA only). Everything else is now LCD. BTW, their website is awful. Totally useless except for the contact info, but their customer service is very good (when you can get in touch with them).

Ceronix: LCD versions only.

Happ: They don't make their own monitors. These are typically Vision Pro from what I have gathered.

MakVision: So far, the ONLY manufacturer still actively producing tri-sync CRT's (24.8" and 27/29"), and I'm not sure how much longer this will be the case. Cost is $ 365 / $ 420 respectively (Happ's website).

Neiman: I corresponded with Rick recently. Neiman's LAST batch of CRT's was recently sold to Shaffer Distributing. Neiman is sending them over in batches of 10 (receiving next week). They are 27" non-digital tri-sync. They will not accept SVGA.

Vision Pro: LCD only.

Wells-Gardner: Documented much elsewhere on BYOAC. Stopped making CRT's awhile ago.


Summary by type/size:

25" CRT Tri-Sync: Your choices are Billabs (1 model), MakVision (1 model); you need to contact Billabs by phone/email to get one; MakVision can be ordered online, such as here: http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49305600.htm)

27"/29" CRT Tri-Sync: Your only choice is MakVision (1 model; link: http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271500.htm); though for a limited time you can get one of the very last batch of Nieman CRT displays (but Note they are NOT digital, though they are tri-sync). If you want one of the last Nieman's, contact Shaffer Distributing for purchasing information (614.421.6800 or 1.800.282.0194).


If anyone else has any relevant comments or especially information to add to this post, please advise. In particular I'd like to know of any other reputable manufacturers of CRT arcade monitors who are still producing them and/or have inventory available right now. Please indicate the country where such product is sold, so that BYOAC members will know which comments are relevant to them.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 09:13:08 am by MPH »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 10:26:48 am »
Very cool. Thanks for the info. What stinks is, I wanted a 19" CRT as a spare, and I waited too long.

I have a few computer monitors and once those die off - it'll be LCD for me. It was good while it lasted.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2011, 11:36:43 am »
Good info, Thanks.
I'm definately holding on to my couple of CRTs

Brian B

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011, 03:14:29 pm »
Excellent summary.  I've been in the same situation (of trying to find out what is available).  To add to your post...

1) Here is the Billabs link: http://www.billabs.com/crts.htm.  It does not let you look at the specifics on the 24.8 from what I clicked on.

2) I too have been unable to find any that are CGA-SVGA.  The only choices are single sync or Tri-sync.

3) From my research Betson said they would be getting in MakVisions to replace the Korteks they no longer have.  Here is what I was sent from Andre Mak on 2/3/11:
"Hi Brian:
 
Thank you for your inquiry. Our tri-mode monitors are auto-sync and are not switchable.  Betson Imperials Parts is our distributor in the US.  By copy of this email, I would ask Richard Zayas-Bazan to ask one of your staff to get in touch with you and see if our trimode 27" is suitable for your use.
 
Thanks,
 
Andre Mak
Makvision Inc."

I did my best to contact them via email but did not receive a reply after two emails.  The best best would be to call Betson and speak to someone there.  My guess is that by this time they will know what the situation is.

4) You are using the word "non-digital" to describe the Nieman displays.  As I understand it this means that they do not have memories for different resolutions and would possibly require repeated adjustment depending on the scan rate.  Is this what digital refers to?  Are you saying that the Makvision monitors do?  The discontinued Wells Gardner was clearly spec'd as a "digital" monitor.

Brian

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011, 06:01:19 pm »
As usual, I get in on the a##-end of everything.  :banghead:

But I do have a Blast City on the way with a tri-sync in it.  Just worried about the amount of burn in it will have.

MPH

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2011, 07:26:47 pm »

4) You are using the word "non-digital" to describe the Nieman displays.  As I understand it this means that they do not have memories for different resolutions and would possibly require repeated adjustment depending on the scan rate.  Is this what digital refers to?  Are you saying that the Makvision monitors do?  The discontinued Wells Gardner was clearly spec'd as a "digital" monitor.

Brian,

I'm not crystal-clear on the benefits of a "digital" tri-sync monitor. I *believe* that what you stated is correct and this is the issue (i.e. that the monitor has memories for the different resolutions). I *believe* what this means is that if you turn the monitor off and back on again, it will recall how you had the screen view and settings adjusted for each resolution. I suspect if you use the monitor only in a single resolution mode that it might recall the settings when turned on again.

Now, if someone more knowledgeable on the forum would chime in with a definitive explanation of "digital" monitors, that would be ideal.  :)

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 07:32:04 pm »
I'm guessing a monitor where you do not have to set it via jumpers.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 08:58:20 pm »
A digital monitor will retain the screen geometry where the analog will need to be set for each.
also I believe only the digital would have on screen display.

To really get a proper answer, You should post the question in the monitors section

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 11:42:43 pm »
I am just happy that I was able to build my first few cabs using CRT monitors...I still have both my WGD9800s. One in my current cab is set to horizontal and my other one will go into a future vertical only project.  LCD is ok with the right software/hardware tweaks but it sure isn't authentic :(
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2011, 12:25:39 am »
Very cool. Thanks for the info. What stinks is, I wanted a 19" CRT as a spare, and I waited too long.

The OP is only concerned about tri-syncs.  You can still pick up regular CGA CRTs.  I got a couple from 8liners.com a couple months ago.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2011, 12:28:34 am »
A digital monitor will retain the screen geometry where the analog will need to be set for each.
also I believe only the digital would have on screen display.

To really get a proper answer, You should post the question in the monitors section

Yes, that means that whenever you change screen resolution drastically (like 320x240 to 640x480) you would have to readjust the pots in the back of the monitor to size the picture.  A digital monitor remembers this using an on screen menu just like your computer monitor has.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2011, 12:51:18 pm »
So...are the Makvisions digital and have these adjustments or not?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2011, 04:37:37 pm »
As a side note to this thread I want to bring up the issue of RGB>Component conversion.

Having a look at this product:  http://www.curtpalme.com/Box1020.shtm

It appears that you could pair this with whatever 15khz signal you choose and effectively transform a component capable television into an arcade monitor. 

There are plenty of those tv's in very good condition around the country, and they are usually far cheaper than a monitor.  A lot of them have curved screens.

Some of those TV's are progressive scan capable. That should also enable 31khz input.  They're nearly all flat screened though. 

I don't know if a TV could support 24khz  res modes. 

I suppose it's possible that there are even some good 27" component TV's still new in the box for sale from online retailers. 



Personally, I'm going to continue on the path I have been on.  I keep a sharp eye out for professional studio monitors like the NEC XM series, and the Sony PVM series. And I also use double refresh modes with PC monitors. 

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2011, 06:52:48 pm »
As a side note to this thread I want to bring up the issue of RGB>Component conversion.

Having a look at this product:  http://www.curtpalme.com/Box1020.shtm

It appears that you could pair this with whatever 15khz signal you choose and effectively transform a component capable television into an arcade monitor.  

How would that device allow 15 kHz output? I don't see anything in the specs on that site that mention 15 khz (but perhaps I missed something). Even if it could, isn't the TV the limiting factor?

I do not understand the technical details well enough to see how this is possible. From what I recall, there is some formula related to refresh rate, # of scan lines, and what you end up with is the H-Khz rate.

How is this device supposed to help a TV user (for arcade purposes)?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2011, 06:54:03 pm »
Yes, that means that whenever you change screen resolution drastically (like 320x240 to 640x480) you would have to readjust the pots in the back of the monitor to size the picture.  A digital monitor remembers this using an on screen menu just like your computer monitor has.

Thanks for the clarification. :)

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2011, 07:44:18 pm »
As a side note to this thread I want to bring up the issue of RGB>Component conversion.

Having a look at this product:  http://www.curtpalme.com/Box1020.shtm

It appears that you could pair this with whatever 15khz signal you choose and effectively transform a component capable television into an arcade monitor.  

How would that device allow 15 kHz output? I don't see anything in the specs on that site that mention 15 khz (but perhaps I missed something). Even if it could, isn't the TV the limiting factor?

I do not understand the technical details well enough to see how this is possible. From what I recall, there is some formula related to refresh rate, # of scan lines, and what you end up with is the H-Khz rate.

How is this device supposed to help a TV user (for arcade purposes)?

It should work fine for 15khz.  It doesn't alter the resolution of the input signal, it only performs colorspace conversion.  It says on the site that the ouput resolution is the same as the input, and that should hold true for 240p or whatever you need. 

I know for a fact that some users on this forum have had success with devices like these, and there is even one made specifically for arcade purposes, the JROK: http://jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

That first device I linked (the one on curtpalme) would usually be used for displaying RGB video from a computer, or a SCART Video source.  In many ways it's built for exactly what we need it for. 

The device helps a tv user for arcade purposes in that it transforms a TV into an arcade monitor. 

It preserves the native resolution and refresh rates, and most TV's have near or  identical color temperatures, dot pitches, screen curvatures and shadow masks to that of arcade monitors. 

Put a TV with one of these next to an arcade monitor and you will be very hard pressed to tell the difference. 

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2011, 07:32:56 am »
As a side note to this thread I want to bring up the issue of RGB>Component conversion.

Having a look at this product:  http://www.curtpalme.com/Box1020.shtm

It appears that you could pair this with whatever 15khz signal you choose and effectively transform a component capable television into an arcade monitor.  

How would that device allow 15 kHz output? I don't see anything in the specs on that site that mention 15 khz (but perhaps I missed something). Even if it could, isn't the TV the limiting factor?

I do not understand the technical details well enough to see how this is possible. From what I recall, there is some formula related to refresh rate, # of scan lines, and what you end up with is the H-Khz rate.

How is this device supposed to help a TV user (for arcade purposes)?

It should work fine for 15khz.  It doesn't alter the resolution of the input signal, it only performs colorspace conversion.  It says on the site that the ouput resolution is the same as the input, and that should hold true for 240p or whatever you need. 

I know for a fact that some users on this forum have had success with devices like these, and there is even one made specifically for arcade purposes, the JROK: http://jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

Trying not to sound daft here, but to confirm my understanding... is the JROK meant for video output from JAMMA boards to a TV?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2011, 09:56:57 am »
As a side note to this thread I want to bring up the issue of RGB>Component conversion.

Having a look at this product:  http://www.curtpalme.com/Box1020.shtm

It appears that you could pair this with whatever 15khz signal you choose and effectively transform a component capable television into an arcade monitor.  

How would that device allow 15 kHz output? I don't see anything in the specs on that site that mention 15 khz (but perhaps I missed something). Even if it could, isn't the TV the limiting factor?

I do not understand the technical details well enough to see how this is possible. From what I recall, there is some formula related to refresh rate, # of scan lines, and what you end up with is the H-Khz rate.

How is this device supposed to help a TV user (for arcade purposes)?

It should work fine for 15khz.  It doesn't alter the resolution of the input signal, it only performs colorspace conversion.  It says on the site that the ouput resolution is the same as the input, and that should hold true for 240p or whatever you need. 

I know for a fact that some users on this forum have had success with devices like these, and there is even one made specifically for arcade purposes, the JROK: http://jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

That first device I linked (the one on curtpalme) would usually be used for displaying RGB video from a computer, or a SCART Video source.  In many ways it's built for exactly what we need it for. 

The device helps a tv user for arcade purposes in that it transforms a TV into an arcade monitor. 

It preserves the native resolution and refresh rates, and most TV's have near or  identical color temperatures, dot pitches, screen curvatures and shadow masks to that of arcade monitors. 

Put a TV with one of these next to an arcade monitor and you will be very hard pressed to tell the difference. 

I have a similar (much cheaper) product that converts JAMMA vid out to NTSC through s-video. It's pretty good. The red's seem to be a little oversaturated, but it's a minor complaint.

The only major problem is that certain PCB's will not work with it. Specifically boards that have a vertical sync rate much lower than 60 Hz. Some Seibu and Toaplan boards have sync rates around 54 Hz, and the picture just scrolls. Even going into the hidden service menu on my TV wasn't able to alleviate the problem. However, all my boards that sync at 60 Hz or at least close to that work very well. This product my be worth the extra money since component out would be a higher quality picture than S-video. And CRT's are dirt cheap nowadays at my local Pawnshop. I got a 27" set with s-video/component that I have my Jamma boards connected to with S-video, and my 360 with component. So it's kind of a Frankenstein setup, but it's definitely good enough to keep me from spending the $$$ on a realy tri-sync monitor.
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2011, 02:03:26 pm »
For what it's worth, I have been using this product: http://www.svideo.com/pctocomponent.html

Sold in the U.S. by S-Video.com (and perhaps others), it is manufactured by GrandTec (http://www.grandtec.com/)

For now it is working quite well on a JVC 27" via Component video.

Pros: Cheap (< $80 shipped); Outputs to RGB, S-Video, Component, or Composite; OSD screen adjustments (e.g. vert/horiz. size and position); saves vert/hor screen position even after power off / un-plugging; comes with all cables (even VGA to PC, with Y-connector to also send video to a PC monitor or other device); remote control; powered by your choice of PS/2, USB, or wall wart (5v DC).

Cons: Only biggie so far (and it is a biggie to me) is the power must be left on all the time. The device is not capable of auto-power on when it receives power (e.g. hooked up to a Smart plug that turns on appliances when a PC is turned on). So, I have mine plugged into an always-on 24/7 power outlet. That being said, it's still a P.I.T.A. when there's been a power failure, a brief brown-out, etc. Sort of like having to reset your oven clock all the time if you live in area where such things are relatively frequent (as do I).

So, I'm still searching for a better solution (namely one that can be cycled on automagically when power is applied versus having to press a button).

Here is the manufacturer's page: http://www.grandtec.com/products/video/xppro.html
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 02:06:51 pm by MPH »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2011, 05:51:47 pm »
As long as that converter doesn't try to change the resolution of the input signal it looks like a good choice.  Have you tried pairing it with a 15khz signal?

@Burgerkingdiamond: Were those out of sync messages on a CRT?  The cause of this is certainly the digital video processor refusing to display the signal, and not a limitation of the actual CRT.  I wonder if you tried it on an older television with less advanced video processing what would happen?  I'm also assuming that you tried adjusting the vertical hold of your TV.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 05:54:35 pm by Jack Burton »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2011, 07:52:23 pm »
Very cool. Thanks for the info. What stinks is, I wanted a 19" CRT as a spare, and I waited too long.

I have a few computer monitors and once those die off - it'll be LCD for me. It was good while it lasted.

If you're looking for a CGA 19", just yesterday I saw some NIB for under $200 on ebay.
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2011, 08:50:39 pm »
I own a Betson 27" tri sync and I'm also using a 22" Mitsubishi for my vertical machine.  I lucked out and found a guy who was selling his old Mitsubishi CRTs which supported 15KHZ.  They work great for arcade purposes!

Here's my original post when I first got them.  Since then I've gotten them to work great!

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=95984.msg1010655#msg1010655

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2011, 10:09:39 pm »
As long as that converter doesn't try to change the resolution of the input signal it looks like a good choice.  Have you tried pairing it with a 15khz signal?

@Burgerkingdiamond: Were those out of sync messages on a CRT?  The cause of this is certainly the digital video processor refusing to display the signal, and not a limitation of the actual CRT.  I wonder if you tried it on an older television with less advanced video processing what would happen?  I'm also assuming that you tried adjusting the vertical hold of your TV.

I know that it's not the CRT's limitation. It's within the chassis and all the electronics. I was told elsewhere that the NTSC standard sync rate is 60Hz and that's why my board wouldn't stop scrolling. I looked it up and it synced @ 54Hz. I did adjust the vertical hold but it couldn't work it out. I think it's too much of a difference. I have some that aren't 60Hz but closer to 60 and they can be adjusted to work fine.
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2011, 11:16:53 pm »
I see that you siad it wouldn't stop scrolling, not out of sync messages.  I was thinking of a different thread on here where a user had that problem.  He actually had the fortune of his LCD TV accepting 15khz resolutions without any issues.  Of course they were scaled up to fit the tv.

It would be great  if in the future LCD tv makers just added the ability to accept 15khz and scale it up to 1920x1080p.  It might not be native res, but it would certainly be useful to replace a faulty monitor in a pinch.  

It would be nice to have a list of such monitors that exist.  Kinda beyond my range of interest though.  

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2011, 08:59:28 am »
As long as that converter doesn't try to change the resolution of the input signal it looks like a good choice.  Have you tried pairing it with a 15khz signal?

No, I have not. Per the manual, the device accepts a wide range of PC video input from 60-120 Hz vertical freq and resolutions of 720x400 up to 1600x1200. I'll have to try playing around with the horizontal freq if that is possible on a standard video card. I'll bet there is a thread on this board somewhere that discusses that concept.

Regardless of the PC resolution, the device scales it to fit the TV picture area. I know it is outputting to the TV at 480i.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2011, 01:05:20 pm »

Not to get too far off topic, but it looks like going with a 16:10 pc monitor may be better than going with a 16:9 TV.  As the picture shows here: http://www.displaywars.com/27-inch-16x10-vs-27-inch-16x9 they are a bit taller and would have slightly less of a black border in games.  I believe though that 16:10 monitors are being phased in favor of 16:9.   ???  I just ordered a 26 inch 16:10 pc monitor, new for only $169.00 shipped but I have fears that it is not going to look very big after I see it with those black bars.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2011, 01:56:47 pm »

Not to get too far off topic, but it looks like going with a 16:10 pc monitor may be better than going with a 16:9 TV.  As the picture shows here: http://www.displaywars.com/27-inch-16x10-vs-27-inch-16x9 they are a bit taller and would have slightly less of a black border in games.  I believe though that 16:10 monitors are being phased in favor of 16:9.   ???  I just ordered a 26 inch 16:10 pc monitor, new for only $169.00 shipped but I have fears that it is not going to look very big after I see it with those black bars.

Agree with you on 16:10 versus 16:9. They are unfortunately hard to find (not impossible, but point it is they are not ubiquitous like the 16:9 variety).

I don't think you'll be bothered by the black bars if your monitor has good black contrast, unless you are very picky (which I presume you are not or you would not be using that monitor). It's not much different than having black paint or stickers on the inside of a plexi or glass bezel.

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UPDATE (Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability)
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2011, 02:48:50 pm »
All,

I just got off the phone with 2 reps at Billabs. The one remaining 24.8" tri-sync CRT model they have is NOT digital. They have a bunch of them if you don't mind that (e.g. not running MAME). Incidentally, the model number is BL25C90T.

That just leaves MakVision. I'm now working to verify what they are still making and the specs.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:50:56 pm by MPH »

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Re: UPDATE (Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability)
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2011, 04:36:16 pm »
All,

I just got off the phone with 2 reps at Billabs. The one remaining 24.8" tri-sync CRT model they have is NOT digital. They have a bunch of them if you don't mind that (e.g. not running MAME). Incidentally, the model number is BL25C90T.

That just leaves MakVision. I'm now working to verify what they are still making and the specs.

I have a call in with my Happs rep. Last time I spoke to him (just before the holidays), he said there was no plans to discontinue them. A couple days ago, I noticed the stock on the Hi-res was low, so I brought 6 of them even though I only have orders for 2 right now. I think, they have 2 left in stock as of this morning.

I'll post an update when I get a reply from my rep.
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Re: UPDATE (Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability)
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 05:39:52 pm »
I have a call in with my Happs rep. Last time I spoke to him (just before the holidays), he said there was no plans to discontinue them. A couple days ago, I noticed the stock on the Hi-res was low, so I brought 6 of them even though I only have orders for 2 right now. I think, they have 2 left in stock as of this morning.

I'll post an update when I get a reply from my rep.

Which Happs monitor? I believe their stuff is either MakVision, Waiya, or Vision Pro (depending on the model).

BTW, the MakVision 27/29 (29" in 27" frame flat screen) is still avail, but the only one that I have found so far is analog (non-digital) sync. I am starting to think the digital syncs are all gone as the manufacturers expect these to be used with just one mode (CGA/EGA/VGA) at a time.

Incidentally, the thought occurred to me earlier today that it might not be so bad to use a VGA or SVGA arcade monitor for MAME and just resign myself to software resolution manipulation. At least I would not have to worry about the screen being offset improperly as is the potential with a non-digital monitor.

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Re: UPDATE (Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability)
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2011, 06:22:01 pm »
This one here: http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271700.htm (Yes, it's the Makvision 27/29")

Note: Though the specs says it supports 1024x768 it only does so at some refresh rates. I haven't heard back yet, but I'm guessing this model isn't discontinued.

I have a call in with my Happs rep. Last time I spoke to him (just before the holidays), he said there was no plans to discontinue them. A couple days ago, I noticed the stock on the Hi-res was low, so I brought 6 of them even though I only have orders for 2 right now. I think, they have 2 left in stock as of this morning.

I'll post an update when I get a reply from my rep.

Which Happs monitor? I believe their stuff is either MakVision, Waiya, or Vision Pro (depending on the model).

BTW, the MakVision 27/29 (29" in 27" frame flat screen) is still avail, but the only one that I have found so far is analog (non-digital) sync. I am starting to think the digital syncs are all gone as the manufacturers expect these to be used with just one mode (CGA/EGA/VGA) at a time.

Incidentally, the thought occurred to me earlier today that it might not be so bad to use a VGA or SVGA arcade monitor for MAME and just resign myself to software resolution manipulation. At least I would not have to worry about the screen being offset improperly as is the potential with a non-digital monitor.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 06:23:35 pm by NoBullMAME »
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Re: UPDATE (Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability)
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2011, 07:54:38 pm »
This one here: http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271700.htm (Yes, it's the Makvision 27/29")

Note: Though the specs says it supports 1024x768 it only does so at some refresh rates. I haven't heard back yet, but I'm guessing this model isn't discontinued.


Correct. I spoke with a different MakVision dealer today and so far no word from MakVision that it is being discontinued. Same with their 800x600 resolution version.

I have been considering this model: http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271500.htm, however at 640x480 resolution I almost might as well keep using TV's.  :hissy:

I am not 100% sure atm, but I suspect that although this unit is advertised as "tri-mode," that it actually just upscales everything to 640x480. On the plus side though it will do 15khz.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2011, 09:34:00 pm »
You guys are making me want to  :'(  I have been on the sidelines from building my own cabinet for about 10 years now. Just recently I became engaged in it again and the current status of things is just disappointing. This is definitely the end of an era and I just want to take this moment to thank everyone who conceived and ever worked on project MAME. Politics aside, I admire everyone who gave their time and energy all for the realization that someday this day would come. I am grateful for their vision in preserving these games.

Now back to the topic at hand, what about the Raw Thrills monitor Betson is advertising on it's site still? Is this not available?  You can put it in your cart and still buy it. What gives?

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Re: UPDATE (Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability)
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2011, 10:17:14 pm »
This one here: http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271700.htm (Yes, it's the Makvision 27/29")

Note: Though the specs says it supports 1024x768 it only does so at some refresh rates. I haven't heard back yet, but I'm guessing this model isn't discontinued.


Correct. I spoke with a different MakVision dealer today and so far no word from MakVision that it is being discontinued. Same with their 800x600 resolution version.

I have been considering this model: http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271500.htm, however at 640x480 resolution I almost might as well keep using TV's.  :hissy:

I am not 100% sure atm, but I suspect that although this unit is advertised as "tri-mode," that it actually just upscales everything to 640x480. On the plus side though it will do 15khz.

I was told that these models have an OSD board (digital).  I guess the question is whether these are installed in the models that Happ or Betson sells.

B.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 10:59:31 pm »
The schematics suggest that the low res monitor (15-31kHz) is an analog monitor with potentiometer adjustments while the high res (30-50kHz) monitor is digital and has OSD adjustments.  Very different designs.

You could run the low res monitor at 1024x768 (or even 1280x960) for graphical stuff like frontends or desktops if you interlace it, but it'll be a bit flickery as interlace always is.  You could also run it at native standard res (15kHz) timings, but you'll have to consider that if you use native timings for each game, every game will probably require some adjustment to make it "perfect".

VGA (640x480 progressive) looks pretty beautiful on a good coarse dot pitch tube, even at large sizes.  The high res monitor can run up to 1024x768, but I question how much detail it would be able to resolve above 800x600.  It does have a smaller dot pitch than the low res one, so who knows.  Almost no arcade games (only very modern ones) run at anything higher than 640x480.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 11:16:24 pm »
On these last remaining analog monitor options for multisync, just how bad are the adjustments? I mean are we talking one game fitting the screen then another is off 1-2cm? or is this like black bars on the sides like 2-3 inches?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 11:30:53 pm »
On these last remaining analog monitor options for multisync, just how bad are the adjustments? I mean are we talking one game fitting the screen then another is off 1-2cm? or is this like black bars on the sides like 2-3 inches?

That will depend on the games you're switching between.  It can be as bad as several inches (either black bars or the image extending off the screen, depending on which way you go), but it's usually not quite that bad in my experience switching actual game boards.  It is in theory possible to pad everything while maintaining game-native timings such that only minor, if any, adjustments are required, but I don't think MAME supports this fully.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 11:44:36 pm »
Thanks for the info. It seems this is okay for a dedicated cab but not for a MAME cab. Those adjustments are not really meant to be constantly tweaked on those boards. I think I may have to just go the non-native route and use hardware stretching. From what I understand both x-arcade and mameroom are using higher res and stretching in their builds. Just seems like the best way to go for a multiple game cab. The only digital multisync I can find is the raw thrills one at Betson. It shows available online, but the OP mentioned they already sold out. If that is the case then that's just wrong! :banghead:

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2011, 02:50:53 am »
The schematics suggest that the low res monitor (15-31kHz) is an analog monitor with potentiometer adjustments while the high res (30-50kHz) monitor is digital and has OSD adjustments.  Very different designs.

You could run the low res monitor at 1024x768 (or even 1280x960) for graphical stuff like frontends or desktops if you interlace it, but it'll be a bit flickery as interlace always is.  You could also run it at native standard res (15kHz) timings, but you'll have to consider that if you use native timings for each game, every game will probably require some adjustment to make it "perfect".

VGA (640x480 progressive) looks pretty beautiful on a good coarse dot pitch tube, even at large sizes.  The high res monitor can run up to 1024x768, but I question how much detail it would be able to resolve above 800x600.  It does have a smaller dot pitch than the low res one, so who knows.  Almost no arcade games (only very modern ones) run at anything higher than 640x480.


So, MonMotha, I take it that your suggestion is to get the tri-sync monitor but set the computer to output 480p and leave it at that?

This one: http://www.happ.com/monitors/49271500.htm (MakVision)

or: http://niemandisplays.com/nieman_video_displays_007.htm (Nieman)

Is that the best option unless there is a model that is digital and can display <30kHz signals, i.e. 15kHz?

Thanks much for your input!


Brian

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2011, 02:56:26 am »
So, MonMotha, I take it that your suggestion is to get the tri-sync monitor but set the computer to output 480p and leave it at that?

I dunno.  I don't run MAME.  I just use these things with several different game boards of varying vintages.

If you run a small subset of games, you may be able to get things set up so that everything is at least acceptable.  Very few arcade machines have perfectly adjusted monitors "in the wild", anyway.  Consider it added authenticity if things aren't quite perfect :)

If you want to run everything MAME is capable of emulating and then some, you'll probably be unable to get things adjusted to your liking.  Then again, even the digital monitors have limited memories (and they can only tell the difference by scanrates, anyway, so some games with different offsets will be indistinguishable to the monitor in terms of setting recall), so you'd probably have to do some adjusting, still.  Even if everything remembered everything perfectly, you'd still have to set up every...darned...game.

Certainly just setting the thing to 480p and leaving it (stretching your emulated games) would be the easiest option.  It'll still look nicer than a PC monitor as the tubes are totally different.  You'll just lose some of the scanlines on 240p games.  480i stuff will look about the same just less flickery and a little brighter.

Note that BOTH models are capable of 480p VGA.  However, one can only go lower, while the other can only go higher.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2011, 10:44:19 am »
Thanks for the great information. What about higher resolutions? Such as this one: http://www.happ.com/monitors/49271700.htm

If I choose to stretch is there a difference in picture quality between say 480p and 800X600 or 1024X768? I have read that this high resolution monitor is limited in what frequencies it can show at 1024X768. But does this matter if I am stretching the image anyway? I do know it's best to just run a monitor at it's native resolution, but will I see a worse picture at this resolution? It's still 30-50hz horizontal so it could theoretically do 15hz interlaced right?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2011, 11:31:37 am »
That monitor is capable of 30-50kHz horizontal, 47-90Hz vertical.  Yes, it will be limited in what vertical refresh rates you can choose at 1024x768.  The number of lines and the vertical refresh rate determine the horizontal scanrate: vrefresh * totallines = hscanrate (totallines is slightly higher than the number of visible lines, so it's a bit more than 768, here - VESA GTF gives you 806 total lines).  Hence, you can only go up to 50kHz/806 = 62Hz refresh at 1024x768.  You could go all the way down to 47Hz (47Hz*806=37.9kHz), if you like, but it will have very noticeable flicker.

You can run 640x480 at up to 90Hz (525 * 90Hz = 47.25kHz), if you want.  The minimum would be ~60Hz as that bumps up against the 30kHz lower limit.  800x600 would have a minimum refresh of ~48Hz and maxmimum refresh of ~79.5Hz.

You cannot run native 15kHz timings on that monitor as 15kHz is less than 30kHz.  This means you can't do 480i or 240p type modes.  The minimum for that monitor is basically 640x480 @ 60Hz, and the maximum is 1024x768 @ 60Hz, all progressive.  You COULD run native 15kHz timings on the other Makvision monitor that Happ is selling (the analog CGA/EGA/VGA one), but then you give up the ability to do 800x600 or 1024x768 progressive (you can still do it, but you have to interlace it which introduces jitteryness and flicker).


In general, exact 2:1 stretches don't do much to the overall look of the video aside from removing some scanline effects.  In fact, the monitor can't tell where the pixel boundaries are on the horizontal axis at all!  You can do a 2:1 scale horizontally (leaving it the same vertically, so a 640x480 image would become 1280x480), and you shouldn't be able to tell the difference as the active video signals are identical (in most cases - some video cards will output something subtly different).

What's this mean?  This means that, if you want to run old arcade games, which were usually ~240p, on a high res monitor, you should run it at exactly double the resolution with the same refresh as originally.  This will eliminate tearing artifacts and should minimize any evidence of scaling (again, you'll just change the scanlines).  So, if the original game ran at 342x244 (to pick somewhat random numbers), running at 684x288 should give you something that's as close to the original video as your monitor is capable of displaying.  YMMV, and I have no idea how to tell MAME to do that, but I'm guessing it can.


FYI, CRTs don't really have a "native resolution".  Unlike LCDs and plasmas, which have discrete pixels directly mapped to input video pixels, CRTs just have an array of phosphors that you can draw anywhere on.  Some low end CRT HDTVs (which are rare beasts, these days) are only capable of a single resolution and scale everything to that, but these multisync arcade monitors will directly display anything you feed them without any scaling.  They don't even have the hardware necessary to perform scaling.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2011, 02:33:43 pm »
Obviously, MonMotha knows way more about the technical aspects than I. That's saying something, as I no slouch. 
However, I think some of you guys are being overly picky. MAMEroom, Dream Arcades, and now even X-gaming use the Hi-res Makvision. When I contacted MR and DA, they both said that the WG and Betson monitors we junk--okay, they were (a little) more diplomatic about it.

I know, you aren't getting original resolutions, but who cares. With stretching the picture looks good, really good. Unless you have a native res monitor running the same game, right next to it, you can't tell the difference. Even then, I'd lay $5 that a lot of us would guess wrong.

I guess what I'm saying, is with these hi-res 30khz monitors running MAME you get 90% of the picture and 10% the hassle.

I know some of the purest will disagree, and that's okay (and I respect it). It just seems like, IMHO, it's not worth the extra effort or stress for that tiny bit of authenticity.
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2011, 03:45:28 pm »
Thanks everyone for the detailed responses. This has helped me immensely in my decision. Basically it looks like Makvision is the last producers of arcade CRTs. We basically have two paths with Makvision:

1) The Makvision 15/25/30 analog monitors - Which would please the purists, but have manual adjustment for different games. Good for dedicated cabs, probably not so much for MAME.

2) The Makvision hires monitors - Probably better for Mame, but would require the use of stretching. Would also allow for newer games to be played on it.

X-Arcade is showing their Makvision as 800X600 while suzo/happs has it listed as 1024X768. Is this the same exact monitor? or are they different? If I go this route it sounds like Monmotha's suggestion of "double the resolution but same refresh rate as originally" is the best configuration for this setup.

I inquired about the monitor thorugh x-arcade, but no response from them. I see www.Twistedquarter.com shows them on their website but it's more expensive than happs. I guess shipping costs will be the deciding factor.

Group buy anyone?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2011, 05:18:27 pm »
Thanks everyone for the detailed responses. This has helped me immensely in my decision. Basically it looks like Makvision is the last producers of arcade CRTs. We basically have two paths with Makvision:

1) The Makvision 15/25/30 analog monitors - Which would please the purists, but have manual adjustment for different games. Good for dedicated cabs, probably not so much for MAME.

2) The Makvision hires monitors - Probably better for Mame, but would require the use of stretching. Would also allow for newer games to be played on it.

X-Arcade is showing their Makvision as 800X600 while suzo/happs has it listed as 1024X768. Is this the same exact monitor? or are they different? If I go this route it sounds like Monmotha's suggestion of "double the resolution but same refresh rate as originally" is the best configuration for this setup.

I inquired about the monitor thorugh x-arcade, but no response from them. I see www.Twistedquarter.com shows them on their website but it's more expensive than happs. I guess shipping costs will be the deciding factor.

Group buy anyone?
Even with a group buy, I doubt you'll get a cheaper price than x-arcade, at least not after you ship them to one person and then ship them out to the group buyers. Plus, the shipping from Happs will probably be more (I think they gouged, I mean charged, me for $109, last time I just shipped one). The $69 that x-arcade charges is a very good deal. I think, I pay more than that when I buy them in bulk.

However, I know there are two versions of that Hi-res monitor; one that maxes out at 800x600 and one that does 1024x768. I'd ask X-arcade if the monitor is the "D4G" or "D5G" version. The "D4G" version only does 800x600, I suspect that's what they are selling.

Have you tried calling? I know they used to have a knowledgeable guy answering the phones over there, not sure now.

Even at 800x600 isn't not a bad deal for the price. If it does do 1024x768, it's a great deal (IMHO).
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2011, 05:21:38 pm »
I just spoke with John at Betson, 1-800-828-2048 ext. 5.  At first he told me the monitors they had were Billabs and then said he was mistaken and they were MakVision.  Before I was told they were Kortek (which it says on their website).  In any case, they are MakVision.

They have:

1) 24.8" analog Flat tri-sync 15/24/31 for $400.
2) 27" digital flat VGA/SVGA for $495.  This is the same "higher rez" one we have been talking about at Happ.

They don't seem to have the tri-sync in the 27" (though Happ does).

But, John told me that they were getting in a 27" digital multi-sync.  He didn't have the information but would call me tomorrow about it.  He didn't know the manufacturer, price or anything else.

I will post when I know more about it.

What are the games that would require 800x600 or higher resolutions that everyone seems to worry about and what is the price at Xgaming for the monitor?

Thanks,
Brian

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2011, 05:26:49 pm »
One more thing. I've had trouble with some (pc) games playing in 1024x768@60khz. However, the windows desktop works fine at this same res. I don't have one going now, but if I recall, you can do 1024x768@60 or 61khz and that's it. If I remember, I'll check next time I have one connected.
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2011, 05:29:21 pm »

2) 27" digital flat VGA/SVGA for $495.  This is the same "higher rez" one we have been talking about at Happ.

Are you sure? It might be the lower res 800x600 version (see my reply above)?

Either way, great information. Sounds like it might be worth waiting to see what they come up with.

Update: I just noticed that Happs has this monitor on sale right now for $465, plus shipping (ends 4/1).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 05:37:01 pm by NoBullMAME »
Author,The No Bull MAME Guide Intro priced at: $2.99

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2011, 07:03:32 pm »
A couple of months ago I put in a 24.8" tri-sync for a customer. He had bought at Betson. If I remember correctly, it was a Makvision and it was analog.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2011, 08:38:59 pm »

What are the games that would require 800x600 or higher resolutions that everyone seems to worry about and what is the price at Xgaming for the monitor?

29"/27v Makvision 30-40khz 800X600 (Xgaming) = $469 plus shipping
http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-parts-and-accessories/product/weiya-29-flat-screen-crt-arcade-monitor/

29"/27v Makvision 15/24/31khz 640X480 (Happs) = $420 plus shipping (Also available in 24.8")
http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49271500.htm also can found here for $469
http://www.twistedquarter.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=325

29"/27v Makvision 30-50khz SVGA/XGA 1024X768 (Happs) = $465 plus shipping
http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49271700.htm also can be found here for $509
http://www.twistedquarter.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=590

Then there's this elusive Kortek model from Betson that shows in-stock, but some have said Betson told them it was unavailable. http://www.betson.com/products/parts/IMP-44-4070-RT for $470. Perhaps Kortek has one last batch to send to Betson before they completely change to LCD? Kortek's website seems fairly "fresh".

I think the reasoning to go for the SVGA Makvision is that it's the same price or lower than some of the other resolutions. The added benefit of the higher resolution would be current console games, PC games, decent television, etc. Just seems to have more uses if it's ever pulled from the cab, and the cost is about the same. UNLESS... there is a technical reason to go with the lower resolution because of the way it displays on these older games. I am not versed enough in the technicals to make this judgement.



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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2011, 12:05:07 am »
UNLESS... there is a technical reason to go with the lower resolution because of the way it displays on these older games. I am not versed enough in the technicals to make this judgement.

Once you throw 15khz out the window, you might as well go with the highest resolution you can because you are no longer running native resolutions anyway and stretching works better the more pixels you have to work with.  You should be able to run everything in MAME at 800x600 or 1024x768 using Direct3D + bilinear filtering and maybe some filters to add some authenticity. 

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2011, 11:15:28 am »

Once you throw 15khz out the window, you might as well go with the highest resolution you can because you are no longer running native resolutions anyway and stretching works better the more pixels you have to work with.  You should be able to run everything in MAME at 800x600 or 1024x768 using Direct3D + bilinear filtering and maybe some filters to add some authenticity. 

[/quote]

Yea that's about where I am at. It's just too much work with the current monitor choices to get a 100% reproduction. I think NoBullMAME said it best, it's not worth the hassle for that last bit of authenticity. However for the purist, I am sure no cost or effort is too high to achieve 100% authenticity. I mean that's what makes this hobby so fun. For me however, I can settle for less if the effort gap is so huge.

I can still make use of the soft15k program on the high res makvision correct? 

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2011, 02:13:36 pm »
You cannot run native 15kHz timings on that monitor as 15kHz is less than 30kHz.  This means you can't do 480i or 240p type modes.  The minimum for that monitor is basically 640x480 @ 60Hz, and the maximum is 1024x768 @ 60Hz, all progressive.  You COULD run native 15kHz timings on the other Makvision monitor that Happ is selling (the analog CGA/EGA/VGA one), but then you give up the ability to do 800x600 or 1024x768 progressive (you can still do it, but you have to interlace it which introduces jitteryness and flicker).

I think that summarizes what we are up against (for MAME) atm. Either a monitor which handles the older resolutions well and the newer (higher) not so well, or vice-versa. There does not seem to be a "one size fits all" solution - at least not for an old-school CRT.   :afro:

Quote
... these multisync arcade monitors will directly display anything you feed them without any scaling.  They don't even have the hardware necessary to perform scaling.

Also noteworthy.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2011, 02:31:38 pm »
Once you throw 15khz out the window, you might as well go with the highest resolution you can because you are no longer running native resolutions anyway and stretching works better the more pixels you have to work with.  You should be able to run everything in MAME at 800x600 or 1024x768 using Direct3D + bilinear filtering and maybe some filters to add some authenticity. 

Yea that's about where I am at.

I agree with Dan!

BTW, Billabs has some  24.8" analog tri-sync. You need to call them (call their HQ in Georgia, which is where they told me the monitors are.... ask for Eva). The unit price is $365 + shipping. The only other CRT they have is a SVGA 19" (also $350).

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2011, 02:59:02 pm »
UNLESS... there is a technical reason to go with the lower resolution because of the way it displays on these older games. I am not versed enough in the technicals to make this judgement.

Once you throw 15khz out the window, you might as well go with the highest resolution you can because you are no longer running native resolutions anyway and stretching works better the more pixels you have to work with.  You should be able to run everything in MAME at 800x600 or 1024x768 using Direct3D + bilinear filtering and maybe some filters to add some authenticity. 


This kinda makes sense to me, but what happens if you want VGA res on a SVGA/XGA monitor? Does it stretech to 1024x768 from 800x600 or 640x480??  Is this going to look good if the multiples of the resolution cannot be displayed by the monitor (e.g. 2x being x1200 or x960 pixels)?  I'm wondering how a 640x480 or 800x600 could get stretched on a 1024x768 monitor display. Or does the monitor down-grade to the lower display?

I though MonMotha said you could either go up or down with a monitor and its resolution but not both. So, I just realized I am confused about all this. Namely, what happens if I had say the MakVision 27/29" 1024x768 res monitor and wanted to play a game in 800x600 or 640x480 resolution? Is that a question for MakVision?  I understand that the lower res monitors would handle this scenario fine, but could not display a newer 1024x768 res game. I am just trying to figure out the opposite. I get the concept of line doubling / stretching / etc., but only if the math is possible. It just seems like in some cases the math does not work out so I don't understand what happens to the picture display in such a scenario.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2011, 08:06:33 pm »
This kinda makes sense to me, but what happens if you want VGA res on a SVGA/XGA monitor? Does it stretech to 1024x768 from 800x600 or 640x480??  Is this going to look good if the multiples of the resolution cannot be displayed by the monitor (e.g. 2x being x1200 or x960 pixels)?  I'm wondering how a 640x480 or 800x600 could get stretched on a 1024x768 monitor display. Or does the monitor down-grade to the lower display?

I though MonMotha said you could either go up or down with a monitor and its resolution but not both. So, I just realized I am confused about all this. Namely, what happens if I had say the MakVision 27/29" 1024x768 res monitor and wanted to play a game in 800x600 or 640x480 resolution? Is that a question for MakVision?  I understand that the lower res monitors would handle this scenario fine, but could not display a newer 1024x768 res game. I am just trying to figure out the opposite. I get the concept of line doubling / stretching / etc., but only if the math is possible. It just seems like in some cases the math does not work out so I don't understand what happens to the picture display in such a scenario.

I believe that if you use MonMotha's formula the key is not the resolution as much as the specs for vertical refresh and horizontal scan rate.  Since these are CRT the resolutions can change as long as we are within the range of the monitor's capabilities.  My reasoning is if vertical refresh * horizontal lines = horizontal scan rate, then if we have a range of 47-90 Hz vertical refresh and a possible scan rate of 30-50 kHz then...if we use 90 Hz refresh * 480 lines (actual number is higher according to MonMotha as this number is the visible lines 480 + sync lines) we get 43,200.  30kHz<43200<50kHz so we are good.

However, if we try the same thing with a resolution of say 384x240 we have 240*90=21600 which is < 30kHz and therefore not possible with this monitor.

Is this correct MonMotha?

Brian

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2011, 08:17:29 pm »
I believe that if you use MonMotha's formula the key is not the resolution as much as the specs for vertical refresh and horizontal scan rate.  Since these are CRT the resolutions can change as long as we are within the range of the monitor's capabilities.  My reasoning is if vertical refresh * horizontal lines = horizontal scan rate, then if we have a range of 47-90 Hz vertical refresh and a possible scan rate of 30-50 kHz then...if we use 90 Hz refresh * 480 lines (actual number is higher according to MonMotha as this number is the visible lines 480 + sync lines) we get 43,200.  30kHz<43200<50kHz so we are good.

However, if we try the same thing with a resolution of say 384x240 we have 240*90=21600 which is < 30kHz and therefore not possible with this monitor.

Is this correct MonMotha?

Brian

You're correct.  If you want to know the "total" lines, you can usually multiply the visible lines by 1.05 to 1.1.  That is, there's usually between 5-10% more "total" lines than visible lines (and you get to pick somewhere within this range if you're doing a truly "custom" mode - the monitor is likely to accept anything in that range).

Again, these monitors don't have to upscale to a "native" resolution like an LCD or Plasma does.  If you want to display 943x692 on the 30-50kHz monitor, you can, and it will display just that - no scaling.  Hence, if you have the 30-50kHz monitor (capable of 1024x768), you can display 800x600 or 640x480 on it without ANY scaling.  You can even go lower, if you turn the refresh rate up e.g. 512x384 "medium res" could be displayed without scaling at 90Hz (~38kHz), but the framerate is wrong and will result in some jitter (every other frame will be duplicated). 

Unfortunately, these monitors can't do 120Hz refresh.  That would open up some neat possibilities.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2011, 09:24:23 pm »
Ok. Thanks guys. That makes sense.

So, now the question is what is the 'magic number' in terms of refresh? i.e., below what is likely to produce jitter, etc.?  Below 50 hz for example (?)

Based on your comments, it seems to me that if I plug in known resolutions that I want to be able to use, along with knowing the minimum acceptable refresh rate, then I can calculate whether or not a particular monitor is likely going to be a good fit for my purposes.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2011, 10:12:57 pm »
Ideally you want your output refresh rate to exactly match that of what the game you're emulating runs at since they run at a fixed, internally emulated refresh rate.  Anything else will need some sort of special handling and may result in various forms of display jitter or other graphical artifacts (e.g. tearing).  MAME (and most other emulators, too) does have various methods to handle these differences (triple buffering, wait for vsync, etc.), all of which have advantages and disadvantages.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2011, 11:13:31 pm »
if I had say the MakVision 27/29" 1024x768 res monitor and wanted to play a game in 800x600 or 640x480 resolution?

You would need to run the game (all games) at 1024x768 and hope it supports that resolution + stretching of some sort.  I can't think of a single emulator or game that wouldn't support that.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2011, 03:28:54 am »
if I had say the MakVision 27/29" 1024x768 res monitor and wanted to play a game in 800x600 or 640x480 resolution?

You would need to run the game (all games) at 1024x768 and hope it supports that resolution + stretching of some sort.  I can't think of a single emulator or game that wouldn't support that.

The monitor in question also supports 640x480 and 800x600.  It's a multisync 30-50kHz.  If you wanted to play a game in 800x600 or 640x480 you'd just...play the game at that resolution, and the monitor would display it.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2011, 07:45:41 am »
if I had say the MakVision 27/29" 1024x768 res monitor and wanted to play a game in 800x600 or 640x480 resolution?

You would need to run the game (all games) at 1024x768 and hope it supports that resolution + stretching of some sort.  I can't think of a single emulator or game that wouldn't support that.

The monitor in question also supports 640x480 and 800x600.  It's a multisync 30-50kHz.  If you wanted to play a game in 800x600 or 640x480 you'd just...play the game at that resolution, and the monitor would display it.

Right... so, that is what the MakVision 27/29" Tri-sync (http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49271500.htm) would do if I understand all this correctly, though with the caveat that because it's not digital that there's likely to be some adjustments that need to be compensated for with software (i.e. the screen vert/horizontal position and sizes will not be remembered by the monitor when you switch resolutions on the monitor itself).

On the other hand, the MakVision (27/29") 1024x768 monitor (http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49271700.htm) is not a multi-sync but at that fixed resolution only, so software adjustments for different resolutions will be required. The monitor is always going to physically display at that 1024x768 resolution. {or am I wrong and it IS a multi-sync since the specs indicate a range of H-freq and V-freq???}

One solution (the tri-sync) more closely emulates the real-world experience by virtue of the monitor setting the hardware (physical) specifications of the resolution. The other option (using software) - no matter what the hardware wants to do - allows playing a variety of resolution formats on the same monitor, no matter what the monitor's resolution is. In other words, one solution is fixed by the hardware (monitor) and the other is determined by the computer/emulator (software). It seems to me that a purist would want the hardware option, but from a practical standpoint to most of us who just want to re-capture the essence of the experience, the real key is the emulator software working well with any particular monitor, and I'm sure MAME and other similar emulators will work very well on any of the monitors we've all discussed in this thread.

Have I got that all correct?

« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:58:56 am by MPH »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2011, 09:30:33 am »
No.  No.  No.

The analog tri-sync Makvision supports 15kHz, 25kHz, and 31kHz.  These correspond to arcade standard res (aka "CGA"), arcade medium res (aka "EGA", and not the same as the old PC EGA standard), and VGA (aka 480p).

The digital hi-resolution Makvision supports any horizontal scanrate in the range of 30-50kHz.  This means it supports PC VGA (640x480p), PC SVGA (800x600p), PC XGA (1024x768p), and any other resolution you can come up with in those ranges.

BOTH monitors can do VGA (640x480 progressive).  BOTH monitors can support a range of resolutions.  The range is just different.  The low-res analog trisync supports typical arcade resolutions while the hi-res digital multisync supports typical PC resolutions.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2011, 11:04:51 am »
I think this is sort of the argument for not buying the higher res monitor. It's essentially an early 2000's PC monitor but it lacks the higher refresh rate up to 120. I meant it's a CRT, so you have that, but in terms of going as low as 25, or 15 it can't do it. So this is why I think most people just decase a PC monitor. The other point however is you can't really find too many PC crt's over 22". So it also has the size factor going for it.

The drawback on the lower res is the manual adjustment of the screen between certain game resolutions.

Pick your poison. Both option kinda suck.

Any word from Betson on the digital multisync?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2011, 12:58:11 pm »
This is making my head spin.  :dizzy:

Ok, so if I'm calculating this stuff correctly... the SVGA monitor (MakVision) that Happ is selling (http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49271700.htm)... its lowest resolution possible would be 333 scan lines (30000 hz Horizontal divided by 90 Hz vertical = 333). So, since that includes the overscan, the end result would be something around 300 visible scan lines (I'm picking a round number here).

However, that is at 90 Hz vertical refresh, and per MonMotha's comments, there's a good chance this will produce undesirable results (e.g. flickering / jittery screen) unless the native refresh of any particular ROM is set around that level.

So, if you know you will want to run any type of game at a resolution lower than 300 visible lines at 90 Hz vertical, then this monitor is not a good choice.

On the other hand, the same monitor will theoretically handle up to 1,064 horizontal scan lines at a refresh rate of 47 Hz, which gives you kind of a similar problem in the opposite direction (i.e. let's say you want to run a high resolution but the vertical refresh will be too low).

Now, to cover the other monitor (http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49271500.htm) - the Tri-sync, it can handle down to 214 horizontal scan lines at a vertical refresh rate of 70 Hz and a theoretical maximum of 660 lines (31000 Hz / 47 Hz). So, this monitor would not be able to handle some higher resolution games. Plus you still have the issue of using the correct or near-correct vertical refresh compared to what the board or ROM is trying to use.

So, if I'm correct about all that then I see what Dan means by 'picking your poison.'  This kind of reaffirms my view atm that it's MUCH easier to simply pick a high res monitor of any sort and have the emulator software make adjustments to fit everything to a few pre-defined resolutions (though I'm still not clear on if the refresh rates might sabotage some of those efforts... I need to find more time to play around with this stuff and experiment instead trying to understand the theories, but this is very interesting and poignant).

So, back to digital versus analog tri-sync... no word from Betson to me yet. The last info I got from them is they are not making CRT's anymore and have none of their inventory. It appears as if MakVision is the only game in town now for CRT's, regardless of who is selling them.


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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2011, 02:56:31 pm »
Any word from Betson on the digital multisync?

Well...Here's what I was told today:

They have 27" VGA/SVGA (not SXGA) with 30-50kHz and 47-90Hz for $389.
They have 27" Analog Tri-Mode 15/24/31 for $495.

It looks like that is it.

Seems like the best deal at this point is to go with Happ and get either the SXGA Digital for $465 (and it will do anything from VGA resolutions and up or

get a Tri-mode which will handle CGA up to VGA but nothing higher and may require constant adjustment of the controls to get a proper picture (when changing resolutions) for $420.

Brian

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2011, 04:09:12 pm »
The thought just occurred to me.... perhaps it's better to use a higher res monitor and double the resolution of older games. At least if an emulator does that then you should end up with a similar effect - I would think.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2011, 04:48:24 pm »
That is what MonMotha suggested in Reply #41. Although I think he meant to double both the horizontal and vertical numbers.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2011, 06:15:07 pm »
Yes...so the $64,000 question is how do you do this easily (tell the emulator to double in one or both directions)?

B.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2011, 06:48:25 pm »
This is where I thought we could just use soft15K or switchres with a custom modeline. You can enter in pretty much any numbers you want, and exclude the ones your monitor cannot display.

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Custom_display_modes_%28Windows%29_-_Soft-15khz

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2011, 11:42:05 am »
Yes...so the $64,000 question is how do you do this easily (tell the emulator to double in one or both directions)?

B.

Don't all the emulators do this automagically?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2011, 03:39:11 pm »
Yes...so the $64,000 question is how do you do this easily (tell the emulator to double in one or both directions)?

B.

Just to mention, the ArcadeVGA card does this very easily, almost all of its inbuilt resolutions are available on a 31Khz monitor. You dont need to configure anything for double the number of lines etc.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2011, 08:21:27 pm »
Hi Andy,

If I go with the svga/xga monitor do you suggest hookup to ArcadeVGA via the DVI port with adapter or just by using the VGA port? Is there a difference in functionality? Reason I ask is the hires monitor is basically a PC monitor with no case.

Also, will AVGA automatically not show the resolutions that the monitor cannot support? In other words, how fool proof is it that it doesn't send a signal the monitor cannot handle.

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Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2011, 11:27:34 pm »
Not to hijack the thread, but the more I think about this, the more appealing the LCD model is becoming.

http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49277330.htm

Cons:
Smaller size
Not authentic arcade look
CCFL X 4 (Not an LED backlight)
It's an LCD!!

Pros:
CGA, VGA, SVGA or XGA
Easier to mount in cab
Energy efficient
Cheap compared to hi-res CRT. Only $365 USD vs. $465
Will most likely have similar format replacement available if it breaks

Basically this looks like a quad-sync LCD. I may just have to revise my cab plans to make a slim cabinet. The more I think about the size and depth of the 27" High Res, it just seems like such a monster. I am all for authenticity but a tight cab that sits closer to the wall would have higher WAF.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 11:56:19 pm by DNA Dan »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2011, 11:51:50 pm »
Is it a correct way of thinking, that I could play a wider range of games with the digital hi-resolution Makvision since I could play the higher resolution games at native resolution and use something like the arcade vga card to play the lower resolution games with a realistic look and feel?

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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2011, 09:42:55 am »
Not to hijack the thread, but the more I think about this, the more appealing the LCD model is becoming.

http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49277330.htm

Yeah, I have to agree with you. I am seriously thinking about this for a cocktail MAME build which is still in the planning stages. Another downside for this plan of mine is I'd most likely opt to use this frame (also on Happ site): http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49277600.htm. Why? The cab plans I'm looking at call for a CRT, and I think it's easier to just use this adapter versus re-engineer the cab design. But point is that it would add another $58 + ship cost to my project cost. So, this is one reason I'm on the fence.

For my new upright, I definitely want a 27-29" screen though, so I'm still mulling the choices discussed in this thread.  Speaking of which, I do agree that SVGA is a beast (of course so is the tri-sync). 103 lbs. either way you go.

I'm also attracted to the new style of uprights that I am seeing more and more of in modern arcades - the pedestal type with LCD either mounted in cab or stand-alone with metal tubes and a LCD TV wall-mount kit to hold it. But that is another future-build concept. I still want at least one real CRT before they are gone for good.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2011, 09:45:53 am »
I put a 19" WG LCD (like the makvision from happ) in a customers machine. It did the job, especially for a casual player like my customer.
But man was it easy to mount.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2011, 09:50:01 am »
I put a 19" WG LCD (like the makvision from happ) in a customers machine. It did the job, especially for a casual player like my customer.
But man was it easy to mount.

Upright or cocktail cab? Were you replacing a CRT? If so, did you utilize any parts of the CRT or its monitor frame to install the LCD? Basically, how did you mount it in the opening?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2011, 09:50:50 am »
Is it a correct way of thinking, that I could play a wider range of games with the digital hi-resolution Makvision since I could play the higher resolution games at native resolution and use something like the arcade vga card to play the lower resolution games with a realistic look and feel?

My understanding is that - regardless of whether or not you are using ArcadeVGA - there is a hardware limitation with every monitor regarding its lowest/highest possible resolution. I believe the point Andy was making is that ArcadeVGA offers a simple solution to output simulated lower resolutions (i.e. modified to fit the monitor's capabilities, such as doubling the output resolution) that does not rely upon tweaking software to accomplish the same thing. Either way you need to do the same thing with that SVGA monitor (scale up very low res) or the tri-sync (scale down very high res). You cannot change the limitations / capabilities of the monitor itself.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2011, 09:57:36 am »
I put a 19" WG LCD (like the makvision from happ) in a customers machine. It did the job, especially for a casual player like my customer.
But man was it easy to mount.

Upright or cocktail cab? Were you replacing a CRT? If so, did you utilize any parts of the CRT or its monitor frame to install the LCD? Basically, how did you mount it in the opening?

It was an upright dynamo cab that had a 25" crammed in it. the original install (by someone else) was so shotty that you couldn't see the whole 25" monitor.
I didn't use any parts from the old moniotr. as a matter of fact I din't use the mounting frame from the WG LCD. it had a mounting frame like a crt would but because of how this cabinet was hacked, I had to get rid of it and just mount it flat.

heres the wg lcds http://www.wellsgardner.com/products/details.asp?iCat=1&iSubCat=5

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2011, 09:59:58 am »
the digital hi-resolution Makvision

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's not exactly digital; i.e., it's not a multi-sync so there's no analog/digital relevance. The issue with analog and digital has to do with the ability of multi-sync monitors to "remember" settings you have programmed into them for each hardware-supported resolution of the monitor. So, if you switch between say CGA and VGA on a digital multi-sync, it will recall your preferences for the vertical and horizontal settings for screen size and location (centering). On an analog monitor, this is done with pots (potentiometers). The analog monitors need to be adjusted every time you change the monitor's display resolution, which is of course a big drawback for MAME.

This is why I'm leaning toward the SVGA model. Although it sacrifices some compatibility with lower res games, I am willing to live with using software or hardware (e.g. ArcadeVGA) to effectively double the image resolution and output it at a level the monitor can cope with. It's not ideal, but given the fact there seem to be no more tri-sync or better digital monitors anymore, this seems like the best alternative atm for my needs (MAME).

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2011, 10:03:16 am »
Is it a correct way of thinking, that I could play a wider range of games with the digital hi-resolution Makvision since I could play the higher resolution games at native resolution and use something like the arcade vga card to play the lower resolution games with a realistic look and feel?

My understanding is that - regardless of whether or not you are using ArcadeVGA - there is a hardware limitation with every monitor regarding its lowest/highest possible resolution. I believe the point Andy was making is that ArcadeVGA offers a simple solution to output simulated lower resolutions (i.e. modified to fit the monitor's capabilities, such as doubling the output resolution) that does not rely upon tweaking software to accomplish the same thing. Either way you need to do the same thing with that SVGA monitor (scale up very low res) or the tri-sync (scale down very high res). You cannot change the limitations / capabilities of the monitor itself.

This is correct.  There's a minimum and maximum to what the monitor can do no matter what.  If you want to display something that's normally outside the monitor's capabilities, you have various options at your disposal to "make it fit".

The option Andy is referring to (having the video card do a 2:1 vertical scale) is historically referred to as "double scan".  Most video cards do support it, but it's so rarely used these days that there's often no way presented to the user to turn it on!  On Linux, you can just add "doublescan" to a Modeline in xorg.conf.  In Windows...good luck.  Soft15kHz may allow it via its "custom modeline" interface, and some video card drivers may have it buried under about 15 "Advanced" buttons.  The ArcadeVGA is probably the simplest way if it does indeed ship with these capabilities readily accessible.


In general, things that are scaled up look better than things that are scaled down.  Scaling down loses information, so things get blurry.  Scaling up presents you with the problem of trying to create information that doesn't exist, but at least you don't lose anything.  Exact 2:1 (or 3:1, 4:1, etc.) scales (with no interpolation) work nicely on blocky graphics like classic arcade graphics since it will preserve the blocky nature.

This means that if you're on the fence and really do want to mess with both old stuff and new, high-resolution stuff, and you've got your heart set on one of those two Makvision CRTs, you should probably go with the high res (VGA/SVGA/XGA) one.  Standard res and medium res can both just be scaled up 2:1 - 240 line standard res becomes 480 line VGA and 384 line medium res becomes 768 line XGA - and you don't have to worry about high-resolution content looking blurry or flickery from being downscaled/interlaced.  All you'll sacrifice are "proper" scanline effects on the low res stuff (which some people are very particular about while others don't really care).  You can also run Windows on them with no hackery at all.  It'll "just work".

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2011, 10:11:36 am »
MPH, since you're looking at a cocktail tab (mostly vertical scrolling I assume) WG lists a 22" LCD that looks interesting. http://www.wellsgardner.com/pdf/Spec/LCD_22in_Standard_Specs.pdf It's 16:10 so not as bad as 16:9 for side scrolling games. I don't see it listed on their site for sale but I did see it here: http://patriotgaming.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=10_655_969 and it's about the same price as a 19" Makvision LCD. Contrast ratio is nice at 1000:1 but alas is doesn't dig down as low as 15khz horizontal. Just another option out there you might not have seen.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2011, 10:24:45 am »
How much life can one expect from one of these CRTs? I mean aren't these better turned on and warmed up, then run for hours at a time? Will gaming a few hours every other day or so and seeing more turn-on/turn-offs decrease their useful lifespan?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2011, 02:56:18 pm »
So I wrote a lengthy post about my experience with video monitors, but I have probably decided it's too far off topic for this thread.

I'm willing to research and put together a list of US Video monitor vendors if enough guys are interested.

For those in the dark, I'm talking about one of these or one of many models like it:




NEC XM 29

15-50 khz800x600 seems the practical limit.
40-100 hz
29 inch display
digital onscreen controls
remembers resolutions (?)I know some of these types of monitors do.

These make great monitors for both emulation and real pcbs.  The only downside is they are much more complex electronically and thus more difficult to repair and troubleshoot, and they are near impossible to decase and place in a cab.  People HAVE built cabs around them though.  
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 02:59:15 pm by Jack Burton »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2011, 12:37:26 am »
This means that if you're on the fence and really do want to mess with both old stuff and new, high-resolution stuff, and you've got your heart set on one of those two Makvision CRTs, you should probably go with the high res (VGA/SVGA/XGA) one.  Standard res and medium res can both just be scaled up 2:1 - 240 line standard res becomes 480 line VGA and 384 line medium res becomes 768 line XGA - and you don't have to worry about high-resolution content looking blurry or flickery from being downscaled/interlaced.  All you'll sacrifice are "proper" scanline effects on the low res stuff (which some people are very particular about while others don't really care).  You can also run Windows on them with no hackery at all.  It'll "just work".

Back in post #45 I asked what the games are that are higher than 640x480? 

Why won't the windows desktop run at 640x480 (assuming that you are just using it for setting up MAME)?

The big question is how "off" will the tri-sync be when displaying different resolutions?

B.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2011, 12:40:05 am »
Looks pretty good to me...do share!

B.

So I wrote a lengthy post about my experience with video monitors, but I have probably decided it's too far off topic for this thread.

I'm willing to research and put together a list of US Video monitor vendors if enough guys are interested.

For those in the dark, I'm talking about one of these or one of many models like it:




NEC XM 29

15-50 khz800x600 seems the practical limit.
40-100 hz
29 inch display
digital onscreen controls
remembers resolutions (?)I know some of these types of monitors do.

These make great monitors for both emulation and real pcbs.  The only downside is they are much more complex electronically and thus more difficult to repair and troubleshoot, and they are near impossible to decase and place in a cab.  People HAVE built cabs around them though.  


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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2011, 07:26:33 am »
MPH, since you're looking at a cocktail tab (mostly vertical scrolling I assume) WG lists a 22" LCD that looks interesting. http://www.wellsgardner.com/pdf/Spec/LCD_22in_Standard_Specs.pdf It's 16:10 so not as bad as 16:9 for side scrolling games. I don't see it listed on their site for sale but I did see it here: http://patriotgaming.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=10_655_969 and it's about the same price as a 19" Makvision LCD. Contrast ratio is nice at 1000:1 but alas is doesn't dig down as low as 15khz horizontal. Just another option out there you might not have seen.

Thanks very much. That 22" is appealing. It reminds me of a Toshiba LCD TV that I was also considering (which is 16:10), but that WG is cheaper and probably more useful.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2011, 07:34:16 am »
This means that if you're on the fence and really do want to mess with both old stuff and new, high-resolution stuff, and you've got your heart set on one of those two Makvision CRTs, you should probably go with the high res (VGA/SVGA/XGA) one.  Standard res and medium res can both just be scaled up 2:1 - 240 line standard res becomes 480 line VGA and 384 line medium res becomes 768 line XGA - and you don't have to worry about high-resolution content looking blurry or flickery from being downscaled/interlaced.  All you'll sacrifice are "proper" scanline effects on the low res stuff (which some people are very particular about while others don't really care).  You can also run Windows on them with no hackery at all.  It'll "just work".

Back in post #45 I asked what the games are that are higher than 640x480?  

I don't have a list, but I believe many of the more "modern" games do run at higher than that (e.g. SVGA, XGA). If you are only playing old-school games (e.g. 80's, 90's) then I would bet you won't care about anything above 640x480. The only exception is that - depending on other qualities of the monitor - the games may 'look' better to you on some monitors that have higher capabilities. But that is very subjective and depends on things like whether or not you want to repro the original effect of blocky pixelation, if you don't mind games being scaled at odd figures (e.g. 1.5 to 1 ratio), the dot pitch of the monitor's pixels, etc. I don't fully understand all the details. I believe it's quite a debate in and of itself. Point is there's the issue of reproducing what was actually used for a game when it was in production and then there's the option to go different routes with different resolutions/appearances and that is where things get subjective and very technical. If you just want to play the games at their original/true resolution, then it boils down to will you be playing anything made after the 1990's? If not then I don't believe you'll need a monitor with anything > than 640x480 (but I could be wrong... someone else please chime in and confirm or refute my statement)!!!  :)

Quote

Why won't the windows desktop run at 640x480 (assuming that you are just using it for setting up MAME)?


You can run Windows in 640x480. I have a cab doing this now. The downside is with some programs you cannot view all of the forms and screen, so sometimes (e.g. with some software installs) you have to guess a bit. But it runs MAME and other programs just fine.


Quote

The big question is how "off" will the tri-sync be when displaying different resolutions?


See above reply 35 and 36.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 07:37:23 am by MPH »

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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2011, 10:22:24 am »
Not to hijack the thread, but the more I think about this, the more appealing the LCD model is becoming.

http://suzohapp.com/monitors/49277330.htm

Yeah, I have to agree with you. I am seriously thinking about this for a cocktail MAME build which is still in the planning stages.

Why not use a normal 19" CGA arcade monitor?
Here's a review of an 8liners monitor I posted a few months back.  They are $150.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=107760.0

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2011, 11:33:54 am »
It's interesting that Jack posted about the XM29.  I just spent the weekend driving 800 miles to pick up two XM29 monitors for future arcade projects.   ;D  The seller let them go for $100 each and they are both in really good condition.  I tested them last night and the convergence/geometry/color is still really good. 


I built a cabinet around a XM29 a couple years ago and with Soft 15Khz it is a phenomenal monitor.  If you even have the opportunity to grab one, don't hesitate. 

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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2011, 01:52:17 pm »
Why not use a normal 19" CGA arcade monitor?

Just that it's CGA. I plan to put a VGA in to support a wider variety of games.

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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2011, 02:21:01 pm »
Why not use a normal 19" CGA arcade monitor?

Just that it's CGA. I plan to put a VGA in to support a wider variety of games.

You can run 640x480 on a CGA monitor, it will just be interlaced.  I can't think of a single emulatable arcade game or console with a resolution above 640x480.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2011, 03:17:39 pm »

Back in post #45 I asked what the games are that are higher than 640x480? 

B.

Games off the top of my head that people would be interested in:

Street Fighter IV
Tekken 6
Virtua Fighter 5
Do Don Pachi Dai Fukkatsu
King of Fighters XIII
Marvel vs Capcom 3
Blaz Blu
Super Street Fighter II HD Remix


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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2011, 03:46:56 pm »
Why not use a normal 19" CGA arcade monitor?

Just that it's CGA. I plan to put a VGA in to support a wider variety of games.

You can run 640x480 on a CGA monitor, it will just be interlaced.  I can't think of a single emulatable arcade game or console with a resolution above 640x480.

Good point. It's worth considering (especially for a cocktail cab). There are games above 640x480, but none that I would think of playing on a cocktail cab.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2011, 03:56:28 pm »
Ok, so I just talked to representative from AV For Sale.  Their website is here:

www.avforsale.com

They are a warehouse for surplus Audio/Visual equipment out of Atlanta, and they used to sell a lot of nice monitors.  

When I talked to the rep he said that they mostly can't sell them anymore and they just end up recycled!

He said they would ask $25 each for a Sony PVM 2530, and would have to look into the NEC XM29's and Mitsubishi equivalents.  I don't expect them to want much more for those.  The shipping would be about $100 on each.  

The AVforsale guys know what they're talking about with this stuff, and they used to post detailed descriptions, and even a photograph of a test pattern of the monitor you were purchasing on ebay.  I would trust them if they say that a monitor is in good condition.  

This is a PVM 2530:


They're 15khz only, and to use them properly you have to construct a VGA to CMPTR port adapter.  It's not a big deal, and several users from this forum and the schmups! forum have done it, but it is something to be aware of before jumping into a purchase.

Don't believe the washed image above.  The image on a working, calibrated PVM is crazy good.  There is not a single arcade monitor ever made that would have as vivid colors as one of these would have new.  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 04:08:43 pm by Jack Burton »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2011, 04:10:28 pm »
They're 15khz only, and to use them properly you have to construct a VGA to CMPTR port adapter.  It's not a big deal, and several users from this forum and the schmups! forum have done it, but it is something to be aware of before jumping into a purchase.

Jack,

Thanks. That is a great idea. However, I can't find any info on BYOAC or elsewhere about a CMPTR port. I searched BYOAC for that term and only came up with your post. Do you have any links to info on how to build the adapter you described?

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2011, 04:15:55 pm »
Ok, thanks!  I haven't even heard of most of these...guess I'm showing my age.  The >640x480 is unnessary for me.  I do like the idea of the tri-sync though...my only concern comes back to how "off" it could be and based on MPH's post and answer earlier it sounds like it is "unknown."  I may just have to bite the bullet.

Brian


Back in post #45 I asked what the games are that are higher than 640x480? 

B.

Games off the top of my head that people would be interested in:

Street Fighter IV
Tekken 6
Virtua Fighter 5
Do Don Pachi Dai Fukkatsu
King of Fighters XIII
Marvel vs Capcom 3
Blaz Blu
Super Street Fighter II HD Remix



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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #98 on: March 07, 2011, 04:17:01 pm »
lol, it's pretty obscure. You can find the pinout here:

www.docs.sony.com/release/PVM2030.pdf

I believe it is only a physical adapter, there are no electronics involved.

@Brian B.

The only multisyncs I have owned have been pro monitors like the one's I've been linking.  But when I switched res's on them they would be off by like a 1/2" to 2" on a 33" screen.  Usually the game would be playable. You can combine this with making the overall image a little bit smaller than the screen and everything should work.  



BTW, even with an analog tri-sync it's possible to just come up with a few universal resolutions and adjust them for your monitor.  I did this with advancemame and soft 15khz.  By doing this I was able to center a "native" image on my screen for 90% of games.  However, a lot of the time you have to fiddle about with changing resolutions on your games to get one you like.    Not an option if you're looking for something slick to show to family or friends, or don't like spending 5 minutes to set up whenever you switch games.  

It also kind of looks like this new switchres program could help with that, but I haven't looked into it yet. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 05:05:23 pm by Jack Burton »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #99 on: March 07, 2011, 05:07:43 pm »
Yeah, spending time each game to adjust is not ideal.  I spoke to the av company you linked to earlier and the guy said they had no CRTs but he would shoot me an email tomorrow.

B.

The only multisyncs I have owned have been pro monitors like the one's I've been linking.  But when I switched res's on them they would be off by like a 1/2" to 2" on a 33" screen.  Usually the game would be playable. You can combine this with making the overall image a little bit smaller than the screen and everything should work.  

BTW, even with an analog tri-sync it's possible to just come up with a few universal resolutions and adjust them for your monitor.  I did this with advancemame and soft 15khz.  By doing this I was able to center a "native" image on my screen for 90% of games.  However, a lot of the time you have to fiddle about with changing resolutions on your games to get one you like.    Not an option if you're looking for something slick to show to family or friends, or don't like spending 5 minutes to set whenever you switch games. 

MPH

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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #100 on: March 07, 2011, 09:03:27 pm »
Why not use a normal 19" CGA arcade monitor?

Just that it's CGA. I plan to put a VGA in to support a wider variety of games.

You can run 640x480 on a CGA monitor, it will just be interlaced.  I can't think of a single emulatable arcade game or console with a resolution above 640x480.

Ahofle,

I looked up your review and followed the link to the 8liners site. One problem I see isthere's no technical info on these monitors, which causes me to think this is a generic link/ placeholder for whatever CGA monitors they happen to have. In other words, it looks like pot-luck regarding what you'll get if you order one. The 8liners website is terrible to begin with and this item is no exception.

I am starting to think that a good CGA monitor might be a reasonable option for this cocktail cab, but I'm not going to order one with no model, manufacturer or other info specified in the advert.

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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #101 on: March 08, 2011, 01:26:12 am »
Why not use a normal 19" CGA arcade monitor?

Just that it's CGA. I plan to put a VGA in to support a wider variety of games.

You can run 640x480 on a CGA monitor, it will just be interlaced.  I can't think of a single emulatable arcade game or console with a resolution above 640x480.

Ahofle,

I looked up your review and followed the link to the 8liners site. One problem I see isthere's no technical info on these monitors, which causes me to think this is a generic link/ placeholder for whatever CGA monitors they happen to have. In other words, it looks like pot-luck regarding what you'll get if you order one. The 8liners website is terrible to begin with and this item is no exception.

I am starting to think that a good CGA monitor might be a reasonable option for this cocktail cab, but I'm not going to order one with no model, manufacturer or other info specified in the advert.
I ordered one of these...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110632831043&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1156

Shipping/packaging sucked and was dirt cheap, I was lucky to get this undamaged, but then again it's a WG 7200 CGA 19" monitor and as cheap or cheaper than the no-name 8liners models.  Just an interesting possibility, but make sure you know that the shipping may be in a particle board box with no padding, that comes open in shipping through the basic USPS parcial post mail (yet somehow survived and didn't get damaged).
SwitchRes / GroovyMame - http://arcade.groovy.org
Modeline Generator and Mame Wrapper for Windows or Linux
LiveCD of Groovy Arcade Linux for Arcade Monitors
GroovyMame - generate arcade resolutions like advancemame
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ahofle

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Re: Sacrifices, sacrifices...
« Reply #102 on: March 08, 2011, 10:26:45 am »
Ahofle,

I looked up your review and followed the link to the 8liners site. One problem I see isthere's no technical info on these monitors, which causes me to think this is a generic link/ placeholder for whatever CGA monitors they happen to have. In other words, it looks like pot-luck regarding what you'll get if you order one. The 8liners website is terrible to begin with and this item is no exception.

I am starting to think that a good CGA monitor might be a reasonable option for this cocktail cab, but I'm not going to order one with no model, manufacturer or other info specified in the advert.

You could try contacting him if you are looking for some specific brand -- maybe he has some in his stock and would be willing to let you chose.  All I know is his chassis have good components on them (at least the 3 that I've seen). 

Jack Burton

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #103 on: March 08, 2011, 12:20:41 pm »
Ok, I got an updated reply from AV For Sale.  They have just gotten a shipment in that has some CRT monitors of the type we're looking for, but it will take them a little time to unload them and test them.  Maybe in a couple weeks or so they will be available. 

DNA Dan

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #104 on: March 08, 2011, 12:37:41 pm »
I just want to add that these are used monitors. Those looking for a genuine monitor are going to be concerned about "longenvity" of the monitor. You just have no way of knowing how many hours some of these monitors have seen. Especially anything in surveillance, which was probably run 24 hours a day, every day of the week. Now I am not trying to be negative about the source, It's very much appreciated, I just wanted to throw the warning out there that in 2-5 years you probably won't be able to buy any of these CRTs. What about parts? Eventually we'll all have to probably go widescreen LCD when all the old CRTs are broke and dead, but until then, just remember you're buying used, old tech that may or may not have much life left in it. For the purists, I understand it's the only option, but for others who aren't so bent on native resolutions, you might want to think dumping money into something so uncertain with no warranty. Again, I appreciate the option others have pointed out. Hopefully someone will continue to supply parts or pickup the slack and start making a 4:3 aspect again. Hell even LCDs in 4:3 are becoming rare in the 20" & 21" sizes.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #105 on: March 08, 2011, 02:42:24 pm »
How much life can one expect from one of these CRTs? I mean aren't these better turned on and warmed up, then run for hours at a time? Will gaming a few hours every other day or so and seeing more turn-on/turn-offs decrease their useful lifespan?

It is better to let them warm up, but I think turning it on a few hours every few days to game will in no way hurt it.  Actually, I'd say you could turn it on for 15 minutes everyday and it probably wouldn't do anything.  Or only turn it on every six months.  

The one thing not to do is turn it off and then immediately back on repeatedly.  

As for the life of a CRT, I can't say.  The build quality on them varies quite a bit, even in the same model line.

I've got a 25" RCA Lyceum TV that's in perfect shape.  My big Mitsu RGB monitor has only a weak blue gun, but it's otherwise excellent.  They're both getting on 20 years old now. I've seen older sets still in working order.  13" tv's and monitors seem like they live forever.  

But then again there were a ton of cheap CRT's put out at the end of the 90s and into the early 2000's that were lucky to last over 2 or 3 years. 

Properly taken care of I could easily see even a cheap arcade monitor lasting for a decade as long as there weren't any problems to begin with.  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 02:49:01 pm by Jack Burton »

DNA Dan

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #106 on: March 08, 2011, 03:18:03 pm »

Properly taken care of I could easily see even a cheap arcade monitor lasting for a decade as long as there weren't any problems to begin with.  

The sad truth is that's probably a longer life span that today's LCDs!

Brian B

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2011, 08:39:11 pm »
What would you pay for a 27" Panasonic FT-2700 Pro RGB Monitor?

It has RGBHV inputs but only does 15.75 kHz.

Here is what the ad says:
27" Pro Monitor. Two composite inputs w/outputs; S-video in/out; one RGB w/sync input. Y/C is selectable to any input; 700 lines, PAL, SECAM, NTSC; Blue setup mode & Degauss. All video inputs are BNC(except 'S'). Has an internal audio amp to drive external speakers(not included). Includes remote; no documentation. Good condition, used very little. Original cost $2,580. Buyer must pickup. Will throw in a roll-around tall cart w/storage.

Brian

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2011, 01:57:01 am »
If I could test it and see it work for a few hours without failure I'd give $100 for it easy. 

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2011, 04:51:48 pm »
If I could test it and see it work for a few hours without failure I'd give $100 for it easy.  

Yeah. Don't be fooled. Outside of this hobby, CRTs are junk. People asking for several hundreds.....let alone thousands....of dollars are stuck on this fact.

That said, those who can't afford at least two or three hundred dollars on a great condition/NIB multisync need to re-think their needs.

The NEC XM/XP series are digital. The XM will do 1024x768. I think the XP will go up to 90khz (!) .

AVforsale in the past have been pretty good people. You might still also be able to find them on ebay.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 05:08:20 pm by Gray_Area »
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Brian B

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2011, 07:34:54 pm »
I don't think $200-300 is out of the question, but where are these monitors you are talking about??

No one in this thread so far has been able to link a digital (OSD) 25/27" CRT multisync monitor with ability to display down to 15kHz scan...

Brian

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2011, 10:24:09 pm »
Ok, so I just talked to representative from AV For Sale.  Their website is here:

www.avforsale.com

They are a warehouse for surplus Audio/Visual equipment out of Atlanta, and they used to sell a lot of nice monitors.  

When I talked to the rep he said that they mostly can't sell them anymore and they just end up recycled!

He said they would ask $25 each for a Sony PVM 2530, and would have to look into the NEC XM29's and Mitsubishi equivalents.  I don't expect them to want much more for those.  The shipping would be about $100 on each.  

The AVforsale guys know what they're talking about with this stuff, and they used to post detailed descriptions, and even a photograph of a test pattern of the monitor you were purchasing on ebay.  I would trust them if they say that a monitor is in good condition.  

This is a PVM 2530:


They're 15khz only, and to use them properly you have to construct a VGA to CMPTR port adapter.  It's not a big deal, and several users from this forum and the schmups! forum have done it, but it is something to be aware of before jumping into a purchase.

Don't believe the washed image above.  The image on a working, calibrated PVM is crazy good.  There is not a single arcade monitor ever made that would have as vivid colors as one of these would have new.  

what size is this? and can you connect arcade PCB's to it?
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2011, 05:27:40 pm »
Those look like cctv monitors.
I do cctv work and I would just say be cautious when buying them used because they run 24 hours a day with primarily the same image on the screen so screen burn is very much possible.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2011, 10:26:34 pm »
@Burgerkingdiamond

I believe it has a 29" tube with 27" visible.  You CAN connect a pcb to it, but you must construct an adapter. 

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #114 on: March 15, 2011, 04:17:46 pm »
If I could test it and see it work for a few hours without failure I'd give $100 for it easy. 

Well, I picked up the Panasonic--seemed to be working all right.  Now the difficulty will be how to get it into the cabinet (where all there is are brackets on the side for an arcade monitor).

B.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #115 on: March 15, 2011, 04:39:04 pm »
or u try to purchase a european model , since every sony pvm or pgm here has rgb inputs like scart , sub d vga and/or rgb bnc. i like the picture quality of the sonys with 15 k input. i use em for retro console gaming . there isnt much on the market that can beat them . i got some 2130 and a 2730 ( 2530 ) pvm here. theire disadvantage is a missing osd like the necs have , sometimes a poor geometrie and degaussing probs when tated or kicked around . a pgm 2950 / (2750 in us? ) is a highend vga screen used in airport information terminals with a great vga picture. the nec xm are maybe the best all in one crts money can buy . great picture in any resolution , a very nice osd , lots of inputs , nearly immune to magnetic distortions ,rotating or whatever. i own three xm2960 and wont give em away , even if someone offers theire weight in gold pressed latinum . the only annyoing thing on the necs i can think of are the noisy ventilation fans.

the pvm 2730 ( 2530 ) is more likely a 25-26 inch model. the big brothers pvm 2950 and pgm 2950 housing a 29/27 inch tube and a modern osd plus a deluxe remote control.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 04:49:44 pm by apfelanni »

Jack Burton

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #116 on: March 15, 2011, 05:35:48 pm »
lol, my XM sounds like an airplane taking off. 

@Brian B., the best way I know of is to build a little shelf inside the cabinet to set the monitor on. The weight of it will keep it still.  You might have to modify the back of the cabinet a little bit, since these monitors are sometimes deeper than arcade monitors. 

dmarcum99

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #117 on: March 15, 2011, 08:25:53 pm »
my xm2950 is sitting in a midway cab decased with only 1/2" gap between the back av panel and the rear cab door.  This thing is fricking huge and heavy....

Those sony pvm's are really popular on the shmups sites...$25 at the site jack mentions is too nice a deal to pass on. 

I remember about 6 months ago on a houston craigslist ad a guy had a picture of his pickup filled with xm29's....about a dozen.  He wanted $50 each.  I wanted so bad to grab one, but an 18 hour drive kills the motivation.  When my XM2950 dies it's going to be a very sad day indeed.

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #118 on: March 16, 2011, 03:06:59 pm »
question for the monitor experts.  my brother has a billabs BL27CBOPU

I hooked up an xbox 360 to it in the past and set it to 720p and it worked and looked great.   my question is, is that a safe resolution to run the monitor at?  or could it damage it?  if a resolution shows up ok does that mean it's fine or does the monitor allow itself to run at a destructive resolution?

I'm considering buying another monitor to replace that one and using that one in an xbox 360 cabinet, so 720p would be great if I can run it like that.  And I'll toss one of these other monitors in the cab I'm taking the BL27CBOPU out of  for MAME.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 03:09:00 pm by tcleary »

apfelanni

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #119 on: March 16, 2011, 03:56:35 pm »
google says it can handle 48 khz > 1024x768 with 60 hertz ,which is a standard xbox resolution . 720 p games are displayed with a few lines blacked out on top and bottom.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 03:59:44 pm by apfelanni »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2011, 03:59:26 pm »
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=46420.40 has some info

I think it should be fine.  Listen to the monitor closely and see if your hear any high pitched squealing or whistling.

720 lines is well within it's range and the 1280 across shouldn't make a difference. 

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #121 on: March 17, 2011, 02:41:28 am »
I remember about 6 months ago on a houston craigslist ad a guy had a picture of his pickup filled with xm29's....about a dozen.  He wanted $50 each.  I wanted so bad to grab one, but an 18 hour drive kills the motivation.

The shipping would have been so worth it.
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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #122 on: March 17, 2011, 02:57:38 am »
Those look like cctv monitors.
I do cctv work and I would just say be cautious when buying them used because they run 24 hours a day with primarily the same image on the screen so screen burn is very much possible.

Going off this and another post on the previous page, I'll share my experiences.

I've had these

Mitsubishi XC3717C- beat up, flickered and popped occasionally, dark image at times.  Paid $150 off craigslist.  Looked like it had taken a hard bump at some point in it's life.  Screen was scratch and burn-in free.  When it worked right it was flawless.

Mitsubishi Diamondscan 20m- Got free from a pc repair shop just for asking.  Was near mint.  Perfect condition, perfect monitor.  I kick myself so hard for ever selling it.  

Sony PVM-1251Q- Found for free in an old barn from a junk seller.  Had to search through about 20 other monitors to find this one.  Was covered in mud, and manure.  Once cleaned up it performed perfectly.  Maybe the nicest arcade image I've ever seen since it has it's own smoked glass covering.

20" Sony PVM from auction- $20 at auction.  Very poor condition, the case was halfway cracked open and the screen had severe gaussing issues.  After deeming it a lost cost and fire hazard I threw it away.

20" Sony from a different auction- $20 again.  This one exhibited partial horizontal collapse.  I monkied about in the service menu and screwed it up.  My ego probably got the best of me in this time.  The image was otherwise flawless on it.  If you could live with the horizontonal collapse it would have made a good monitor.  Worth $20 in my opinion.  I threw it away to make space for others though.  

Mitsubishi AM-3501R- Paid about $15 for it at auction.  Big, heavy thing.  It's my main monitor and is excellent.  The blue gun on it is a bit weak, but you can really only tell that on color test menus.  Games look great on it.  No burn-in or scratches.  Had to take the cover off and turn up the SCREEN setting to make it look really good, before it was a tad dark.

NEC XM-29- Free from an auction.  Turned on for five seconds and turned itself off.  I looked in the manual and determined it was a cooling fan issue.  I blew out the interior with compressed air and it worked.  Screen had severe burn in from hospital use, but looked fantastic otherwise.  The fan makes a lot of noise.

So there's a lot of variety in the condition and price of this stuff.  It's a hobby of it's own.  And it's really random.  I would as much expect a truckload of NIB XM's as a load of beat up airport monitors.   
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 03:00:09 am by Jack Burton »

teetu

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #123 on: March 27, 2011, 10:38:46 am »
This thread certainly was informative!  My WG K7400 was recently destroyed by my cat (he got in there and broke the neck right off) and I'm looking to replace the monitor to use with my arcade vga (I'm only interested in older games).

I don't want to spend a ton of money but I want something authentic, so my options are

- $365 Makvision 24.8" Tri Mode (I can drive to happ and save on shipping)
- $50 Sony KV-25XBR (local craigslist)

Are both of these going to be suitable replacements for my wells gardner?  Can the sony XBR do the same resolutions as the WG K7400?  I won't have any problems making a cable for the sony but I don't quite understand the pinout (do I need the H sync and V Sync from the arcade vga, or is it just a composite sync?)

Thanks!

« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 11:04:25 am by teetu »

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #124 on: March 27, 2011, 02:45:06 pm »
Here's the manual:
http://fileshare.eshop.bg/downloadsm/34378/sony_kv-25xbr.html

And a pinout:

http://www.hardwarebook.info/Sony_RGB_Multi_Input

It's just a standard res monitor just like the K7400 so it can only do the 15khz games natively.  24 and 31khz would have to be interlaced.  

I think the KV could be made to work, it's a matter of:

-figuring out the pinout, and making an adapter.  

-making it fit into your cabinet.  If it can just slide in and sit on a shelf then you're good to go.  

I would not try to decase it.  If it won't fit without extensively modding the cab or decasing the monitor then I'd go ahead and just spring for the Makvision.  

The picture on the either monitor would be very good.  If the Sony monitor is in good shape it will have superior color.  However, it is an aperature grille monitor, and I suggest you read up about that technology before making a decision.  

The makvision will have easier to access H and V size controls.  The Sony will usually center games pretty well, but sometimes a few pixels will get cut off by the surrounding bezel.  It's a result of the overscan that was prevalent in tv shows of that era.  It's just something you have to live with with these kinds of monitors.  
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 03:06:10 pm by Jack Burton »

MPH

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2011, 08:58:08 am »
Follow-up note here.

The 1024x768 MakVision is no longer available at Happ or X-Gaming. (see this thread regarding one member's experience with Happ sending the wrong monitor... also note this monitor has since been removed from Happ's website:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=100534.0)

Looks like possibly MakVision is weaning off the CRT's (I'll be shocked if they are not), so word to the wise again if you want a CRT arcade monitor you should seriously consider buying one now... at least if you want it big with a high resolution... before they are gone (if the new ones are still being produced... hard to tell these days).

clutch

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #126 on: April 06, 2011, 03:57:57 pm »
Anybody have experience with this monitor?  They have them in stock.  They are all out of the rounded ones.
http://www.betson.com/products/parts/IMP-44-4070-DF


Tried to cut and paste specs:

CRT Size
   

29" (27V) Flat

Dot Pitch
   

0.79mm

Video Input
   

Analog 0.7VPP (75Ω)/TTL 2.5-5.0VPP (2KΩ)

Sync Input
   

TTL Level Positive/Negative/Separate or Composite

H-Frequency
   

15/24/31KHz

V-Frequency
   

47-70Hz

Bandwidth
   

65MHz

Resolution
   

640 x 480 max

Power Supply
   

100-240VAC 50/60Hz

Power Consumption
   

120W

Signal Connector
   

15-pin D-sub male connector

Weight
   

103 lbs

Approvals
   

TUV, S-Mark & UL

MPH

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #127 on: April 06, 2011, 05:05:55 pm »
Clutch,

That's a VGA. IMHO, for the $ you are better off trying to get one of the SVGA models. TwistedQuarter's website still lists the 27" SVGA, but I have not reached out to them (yet) to inquire as to its availability.

clutch

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #128 on: April 06, 2011, 06:07:28 pm »
Will the SVGA do the 15kHZ resolutions?

MPH

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #129 on: April 06, 2011, 07:56:50 pm »
No, sorry I missed that you were looking at a tri-sync!  My bad. :(

I don't know of any Tri-syncs that will do SVGA (at least not which you can buy new).

MonMotha

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #130 on: April 07, 2011, 12:50:47 am »
I think that Betson part number is their part number for the KT-2914DF (the "round" version, which was barely round, is the IMP-44-4070-RT and I'm sure is out of stock as it hasn't been made in about 3-5 years).  If that is indeed a KT-2914DF, the specs are wrong.  It WILL, in fact, do 800x600 SVGA, AND it will also go all the way down to 15kHz standard res CGA.  It will also do 120Hz refresh rates, which can be handy for some visual tricks.

I thought Betson was out of these, though.  I had heard they ran out about 8-12 months ago.  I'm pretty sure Kortek hasn't made the monitor for at least a year.  It's possible that they're re-using the part number for a totally different monitor.

clutch

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #131 on: April 07, 2011, 08:35:09 am »
 I just noticed that in the email with the specs, there was a makvision logo above them!?  I'll bug the guy some more.  MonMotha, do you know what the picture looks like in 15khz?  I know that the Makvision has some pretty bad scanlines at that low res.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 08:37:54 am by clutch »

clutch

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #132 on: April 07, 2011, 10:13:37 am »
Mystery solved:

Quote
it is makvsion , cost is $435.00 and we we have about 30 in stock

penguinpc

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2011, 10:00:40 pm »

Not to get too far off topic, but it looks like going with a 16:10 pc monitor may be better than going with a 16:9 TV.  As the picture shows here: http://www.displaywars.com/27-inch-16x10-vs-27-inch-16x9 they are a bit taller and would have slightly less of a black border in games.  I believe though that 16:10 monitors are being phased in favor of 16:9.   ???  I just ordered a 26 inch 16:10 pc monitor, new for only $169.00 shipped but I have fears that it is not going to look very big after I see it with those black bars.

Yohan, what kind of monitor, and where did you order it from?

MPH

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2011, 11:23:10 pm »
FYI, I emailed with Andy at Twisted Quarter. He says they are getting in a shipment of the SVGA/XGA MakVision 27/29" monitors this Wednesday (price approx. $500+ship). I'm a bit concerned that they might not actually be the SVGA/XGA and might be the VGA/SVGA versions (800x600 max. res), since they seem to be the only people who seem to have the SVGA/XGA monitor, and I've read on this board about another member who ordered the SVGA/XGA monitor from Happ and they sent him the lower res monitor instead (and btw the high res has been recently removed from Happ's website).

We'll see. If anyone orders one, please consider posting here and confirming which model you receive.

rcub3

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #135 on: May 02, 2011, 12:53:33 am »
Fantastic thread as I still debate on which monitor to get. I wonder though, does anyone know which monitors are in the NorthCoast and Magnum Arcade cabs?

MPH

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Re: Current U.S.A. CRT Arcade Monitor Availability
« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2011, 08:56:57 am »
Fantastic thread as I still debate on which monitor to get. I wonder though, does anyone know which monitors are in the NorthCoast and Magnum Arcade cabs?

Last time that I spoke with someone at NorthCoast (about 6 months ago), they were using the MakVision 29/27" SVGA. I presume they still are since that monitor seems to still be available (though that point continues to be debated since X-Gaming does not offer the SVGA model anymore, and it is suspect whether other vendors are actually selling it or not... some people in this business are better informed than others; i.e. know what they are talking about, and some do not).