Author Topic: Great HDMI cable (Read 10778 times)

ahofle · « **on:** February 22, 2011, 09:29:18 pm »

Just picked up one of these HDMI cables:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQuest+-+Coffee+6.6%27+HDMI+Cable+-+Brown/Black/1267646.p?id=1218245470758&skuId=1267646

and MAN, the zeros and ones traveling through this cable seem fuller and richer than any other cable I've used before. Really makes the picture on my $399 Insignia LCD shine! I went ahead and dropped the $80 for the Geek Squad to install it for me (in case I plugged in the wrong end into the TV).
Just thought I'd share this great buy with the community!

DaveMMR · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2011, 09:47:44 pm »

Pfft! Baby stuff!!

I spent $800 on my HDMI cable - it glows in the dark. I used it for my PS3, which I paid Geek Squad to install for the low, low price of $280. They were laughing so hard when they were doing the job - and that's what I like: people who enjoy their work.

DaveMMR · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2011, 09:50:18 pm »

PS: Read the customer reviews on that link.

wp34 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2011, 10:38:55 pm »

Quote from: DaveMMR on February 22, 2011, 09:50:18 pm

PS: Read the customer reviews on that link.

Man those are funny.

J_K_M_A_N · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2011, 10:52:46 pm »

I needed something a little longer so I went with this one. It was a little more money than the rest but well worth it. My VCR tapes have never looked better. (I got a coax->hdmi adapter.

)

J_K_M_A_N

hypernova · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2011, 11:20:18 pm »

I bought the 40' a month or so ago.

After a week or so I realized I didn't need that length. Luckily I was part of their fantastic BuyBack program! I only paid like $70 to be a part of that program, and then they gave me half my money back! I felt like I had just robbed the place!

So I used my newfound $1100 dollar "refund" to get one of the 6.6' bad boys.

I am one shrewwwwd customer, I tell ya.

DaveMMR · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2011, 11:41:04 pm »

I saw that same cable at Best Buy for $1900. The manager told me it was priced wrong but they HAD to honor it. Yay, I beat the system!!!

SavannahLion · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:13:09 am »

Is that a fricken power switch and led on that?

shateredsoul · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:18:57 am »

....

monoprice, good enough for me

amendonz · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:22:16 am »

cheers for the heads up, great deal!

SNAAKE · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2011, 04:22:13 am »

I must say, I was a bit disappointed in this cable. I saved up for 6 months to buy it. (I work at Wendy's so I don't make a lot of money).

newmanfamilyvlogs · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2011, 05:51:45 am »

Yeah but it's such a waste if you're not using high quality interlink transports between you components!

Personally I usually use this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM

drventure · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:46:35 am »

Wow. The Portal device uses 2! of those Denon interlink cables!

They've gotta be heavy duty stuff. Have you ever seen that device in use. Yikes....

Donkbaca · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2011, 10:56:00 am »

So pissed, I bought one of those six footers, but didn't read that it works with MOST HDMI devices. Unfortunately, it does NOT plug into my colecovision, I was hoping that this would convert the picture to play color on my 13 inch black and white tv. I was thinking about upgrading the tv, but this seemed like the better choice since I wanted the setup to run at native resolution. Naturally, I didn't want to mess up the professional work, so I called the geek squad out to see if they could fix it. I'll keep you posted.

wp34 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2011, 11:04:16 am »

Quote from: DaveMMR on February 22, 2011, 11:41:04 pm

I saw that same cable at Best Buy for $1900. The manager told me it was priced wrong but they HAD to honor it. Yay, I beat the system!!!

--- let's not start that again though.

shateredsoul · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:42:34 pm »

I hate when you guys joke around, I'm always the last to catch on!

anyways, I remember this one day at bestbuy I overheard the sales guy bugging this guy to buy a 60 dollar hdmi chord, I wanted to tell him about monoprice so bad. But the sales guy wouldn't go away. They always take advantage of ppl.

My friend paid extra to get some extra service done to her netbook (some antivirus and whatever service crap). She even paid so they could install the ram! The thing is, they just put the ram in the bag and forgot to install it! lol. I told her to get a refund and i'd install it free, no charge.

When I was in undergrad, I remember this one time I went because I couldn't slide the power supply back into it's slot for my tower. I just wanted their help. They started running all these checks on it, wanted to charge me for a system scan for installation of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. It was a vaio and I didn't understand how to slide in the power supply. Man, I hate bestbuy.

Fry's too.. this one guy tried to sell me an i7 laptop with 8 cores... yeah 8 cores.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:49:15 pm »

Man I would have jumped all over that! You could have had an 8 core laptop! Did it have an HDMI input that I can hook my colecovision up to?

drventure · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2011, 09:09:41 pm »

It is funny that they'd price a cable like that. I picked up a 40' HDMI off amazon for about 12$ I really was expecting it to be crap, but it's worked out fantastic.

Just searched again, there's actually one place selling a 35ft for 0.01$?

WTF?

newmanfamilyvlogs · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2011, 09:17:36 pm »

Well I can understand the i7 core confusion.. its four cores with hyperthreading so it appears as 8 logical cores in task manager.

ahofle · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2011, 10:50:36 pm »

On a serious note, does anyone know what the deal is with these cables? They're almost comical -- people on amazon.com are uploading 'product' pictures of internal organs and gold bars for these things. How could they ever sell a single one? You should check out their website. It has warnings of 'counterfeit cables' at too good to be true prices.

shateredsoul · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2011, 10:57:45 pm »

Quote from: cotmm68030 on February 23, 2011, 09:17:36 pm

Well I can understand the i7 core confusion.. its four cores with hyperthreading so it appears as 8 logical cores in task manager.

but he's the guy selling the computers, he should know better.

Samstag · « **Reply #21 on:** February 24, 2011, 10:58:52 am »

Quote from: shateredsoul on February 23, 2011, 10:57:45 pm

Quote from: cotmm68030 on February 23, 2011, 09:17:36 pm
Well I can understand the i7 core confusion.. its four cores with hyperthreading so it appears as 8 logical cores in task manager.

but he's the guy selling the computers, he should know better.

If he knew better he'd be worth more than Frys pays.

I've been offered 9600 baud hard drives, 2.4 gigahertz monitors, and lots of other nonsense at places like Frys and Best Buy.

ChadTower · « **Reply #22 on:** February 24, 2011, 11:03:21 am »

Quote from: shateredsoul on February 23, 2011, 07:42:34 pm

I overheard the sales guy bugging this guy to buy a 60 dollar hdmi chord

Pfft. A $60 HDMI chord makes the picture totally B flat. If you want to C sharp you need a $100 chord.

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #23 on:** February 24, 2011, 01:32:03 pm »

You know what P.T. Barnum always said....

There's a sucker born every minute!

shateredsoul · « **Reply #24 on:** February 24, 2011, 03:08:37 pm »

put more memory in it! That'll make it go faster.

shmokes · « **Reply #25 on:** February 24, 2011, 05:15:06 pm »

Yeah, seriously. If you sell even one cable you are more profitable than Monoprice after selling two hundred cables.

My problem is with Best Buy. What kind of company cares so little about customers and its own image that it would actually participate in a scam like this?

DaveMMR · « **Reply #26 on:** February 24, 2011, 06:27:46 pm »

Quote from: shmokes on February 24, 2011, 05:15:06 pm

Yeah, seriously. If you sell even one cable you are more profitable than Monoprice after selling two hundred cables.

My problem is with Best Buy. What kind of company cares so little about customers and its own image that it would actually participate in a scam like this?

I lay the blame more on AudioQuest but how could Best Buy sell these with a straight face? I applied for a job at Best Buy years ago and I suppose I'm glad I didn't get it. If I were forced to sell these to customers, I would have quit.

If you Google AudioQuest, you'll see any criticism of the ridiculous pricing and dubious claims are met with emails from the very defensive company president littered with meaningless buzz words.

shateredsoul · « **Reply #27 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:31:24 pm »

on a side note, my brother used to work at Circuit City and he said that customers used to try and haggled with him, "Well I saw the same model for less at the nearby Best Buy" to which he would reply, "Well, you should probably go get it over there".

Anyways, the sales people probably don't make anything off selling you an hdmi chord so if they're really pushing for that then it's because they don't know other options or they are forced to offer it.

DaveMMR · « **Reply #28 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:39:59 pm »

Quote from: shateredsoul on February 24, 2011, 07:31:24 pm

Anyways, the sales people probably don't make anything off selling you an hdmi chord so if they're really pushing for that then it's because they don't know other options or they are forced to offer it.

From some accounts I've read, the employees are more or less expected to move the cables or expect to have their hours cut and hassled by management. So if the salesman is really pushing for you to buy an overpriced cable (sometimes going so far as being insulting), it's because his job may literally depend on it.

shateredsoul · « **Reply #29 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:43:48 pm »

man that sucks

sort of like that magazine that gamestop sells

SavannahLion · « **Reply #30 on:** February 24, 2011, 08:19:47 pm »

Quote from: Samstag on February 24, 2011, 10:58:52 am

Quote from: shateredsoul on February 23, 2011, 10:57:45 pm
Quote from: cotmm68030 on February 23, 2011, 09:17:36 pm
Well I can understand the i7 core confusion.. its four cores with hyperthreading so it appears as 8 logical cores in task manager.

but he's the guy selling the computers, he should know better.

If he knew better he'd be worth more than Frys pays.

I've been offered 9600 baud hard drives, 2.4 gigahertz monitors, and lots of other nonsense at places like Frys and Best Buy.

Puhlease, Frys employyes are useless. When Sony announced they were releasing a Linux kit for their PS2 (but somehow failed to mention it was available online only) I went down to my Frys around the time of the expected release date and asked, "When are you going to get the Official Sony Playstation 2 Linux Kit in?" The ---smurf--- turned to me and told me, "We don't sell things to hack consoles." "But uh... this is made and sold by Sony for their Sony Playstation 2." He completely ignored me after that.

At a different time; When one of their moronic employees overheard me say that I was running a server with a 500Mhz CPU, he broke out laughing. I asked him if he had the skills to operate a computer running the latest OS (I didn't tell him it was Linux). He laughed even harder and told me only if he wanted to wait around forever. I then told him that it was happily running in my closet serving up a website. That shut him up (or when he realized what was in my cart). Then the ---smurf--- followed me around as I made my purchases "assisting" me wherever I went. Then offered to "draw up an invoice to assist me through checkout." Riiiight. I didn't need anything in the cage so as soon as I was done with him and in checkout, I tossed the stupid invoice in the garbage. No way in hell was he going to earn commission from me.

I notice a lot of the Frys ---uvulas--- are wise to that now. They "assist" you through check out to make sure they get that commission. Funny, I rarely ever see them actually help the customer to the car. They leave the lot attendants to do that.

The whole "check your stuff as you leave the store" annoys the ---fudgesicle--- out of me. Legally, I believe (IANAL) once you've paid for your merchandise and the receipt is in hand, then I'm sure they're doing some kind of unlawful search through your things in exchange for you leaving. The times for when I'm not with my fiance or kids, I tell them to ---fudgesicle--- off and walk out anyways.

However, I've heard they have a new (unwritten) policy that if the receipt isn't "tagged" (I assume with that ---smurfy--- highlighter) then they'll refuse any sort of exchange or return on that item. Even if you have the ---smurfing--- receipt from their store.

The only reason I continue to return to Frys is because they're the only remaining electronics Brick & Mortar store that still has a huge selection of gut electronics. Best Buy might have gut electronics, but the selection is meager at best and it's always MSRP. Otherwise, I'd have to buy even the tiniest purchases online. For small things, sometimes it's better to pay the B&M prices once you factor in things like S&H or Refunds.

Wal*Mart is a little bit better on the whole check the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- you just paid for kind of thing. It's funny, but I discovered you're less likely to be "checked" as you leave Wal*Mart if you don't have any bags (even the stupid reusable blue ones). If you have your items in a bag of any sort, they're more likely to check. Since I refuse to pay money for bags that probably carry a shitload of germs anyways, I don't have any bags with me when I go to Wally World. Ironic isn't it?

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #31 on:** February 26, 2011, 05:44:30 am »

Quote from: shateredsoul on February 24, 2011, 07:31:24 pm

on a side note, my brother used to work at Circuit City and he said that customers used to try and haggled with him, "Well I saw the same model for less at the nearby Best Buy" to which he would reply, "Well, you should probably go get it over there".

Anyways, the sales people probably don't make anything off selling you an hdmi chord so if they're really pushing for that then it's because they don't know other options or they are forced to offer it.

That sounds like Circuit City to me. "Our prices are consistently higher than our competators. And we refuse to lower them." It's no suprise that they went bankrupt.

Getting back on topic a little, I'm still enraged at the fact that I have to go online to buy a hdmi cable that isn't over-priced. Seriously, they are over-priced EVERYWHERE. A cable at best buy... 40 bucks! A cable at walmart... 30 bucks! Hell even a cable at the local discount store is 20 bucks! Hdmi cables cost 1 to 2 bucks for a really short cable, 3 to 5 for a normal sized one, and 7 to 10 for a ridiculously long one. Shipping is also free 9 times out of 10. I just can't understand why I can personally buy a cable for peanuts but every retailer on the planet can't get the same deal.

Edgedamage · « **Reply #32 on:** February 26, 2011, 07:44:44 am »

Quote from: Howard_Casto on February 26, 2011, 05:44:30 am

Quote from: shateredsoul on February 24, 2011, 07:31:24 pm
on a side note, my brother used to work at Circuit City and he said that customers used to try and haggled with him, "Well I saw the same model for less at the nearby Best Buy" to which he would reply, "Well, you should probably go get it over there".

Anyways, the sales people probably don't make anything off selling you an hdmi chord so if they're really pushing for that then it's because they don't know other options or they are forced to offer it.
That sounds like Circuit City to me. "Our prices are consistently higher than our competators. And we refuse to lower them." It's no suprise that they went bankrupt.

Getting back on topic a little, I'm still enraged at the fact that I have to go online to buy a hdmi cable that isn't over-priced. Seriously, they are over-priced EVERYWHERE. A cable at best buy... 40 bucks! A cable at walmart... 30 bucks! Hell even a cable at the local discount store is 20 bucks! Hdmi cables cost 1 to 2 bucks for a really short cable, 3 to 5 for a normal sized one, and 7 to 10 for a ridiculously long one. Shipping is also free 9 times out of 10. I just can't understand why I can personally buy a cable for peanuts but every retailer on the planet can't get the same deal.

Is there any dollarama stores in your area? They sell cheap cables.

DaveMMR · « **Reply #33 on:** February 26, 2011, 09:55:40 am »

Quote from: Howard_Casto on February 26, 2011, 05:44:30 am

Getting back on topic a little, I'm still enraged at the fact that I have to go online to buy a hdmi cable that isn't over-priced.

I haven't found this to be too big a hassle luckily. I'm pretty much resigned to buying electronics online now (can't deal with Best Buy and its ilk) and particularly through Amazon. I'll just throw the $3 HDMI cable in the cart, get free shipping on the whole shebang and it comes fairly quickly. I'll also throw a spare in my cart if I need to hit that magic $25 mark for free shipping.

(Though it would be helpful to have that Dollarama store nearby if needed it)

shmokes · « **Reply #34 on:** February 26, 2011, 10:13:00 am »

I think he legitimately wonders how this state of affairs is even possible. Short of coordinated price fixing it doesn't seem like prices should be able to be so absurdly inflated at every single B&M retailer. Including Walmart. That last bit gets its own sentence.

shateredsoul · « **Reply #35 on:** February 26, 2011, 12:07:49 pm »

Quote from: DaveMMR on February 26, 2011, 09:55:40 am

Quote from: Howard_Casto on February 26, 2011, 05:44:30 am
Getting back on topic a little, I'm still enraged at the fact that I have to go online to buy a hdmi cable that isn't over-priced.

I haven't found this to be too big a hassle luckily. I'm pretty much resigned to buying electronics online now (can't deal with Best Buy and its ilk) and particularly through Amazon. I'll just throw the $3 HDMI cable in the cart, get free shipping on the whole shebang and it comes fairly quickly. I'll also throw a spare in my cart if I need to hit that magic $25 mark for free shipping.

(Though it would be helpful to have that Dollarama store nearby if needed it)

I have amazon prime and am with you, it ships fast and free shipping. Although I think it's funny that Amazon will give you an entire box when you order a small cable. I once ordered a single pen (thinking it was a box of pens), and they sent me a box that looked big enough to hold 2 laptops.. for one pen.

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #36 on:** February 26, 2011, 10:14:34 pm »

Quote from: shmokes on February 26, 2011, 10:13:00 am

I think he legitimately wonders how this state of affairs is even possible. Short of coordinated price fixing it doesn't seem like prices should be able to be so absurdly inflated at every single B&M retailer. Including Walmart. That last bit gets its own sentence.

EXACTLY! I thought the walmart was the king of cheap Chinese crap. Well my cables are coming from China, and I'm pretty sure they cost much MORE when you order a small amount and don't get bulk shipping.

Sadly no dollar-rama stores.... I've never even heard of them. Our dollar tree doesn't carry them though, which I also find odd. I can buy a three pack of usb cables there for a dollar but not a hdmi cable? Not even a cruddy one that barely works?

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #37 on:** February 26, 2011, 10:25:27 pm »

Quote from: shateredsoul on February 26, 2011, 12:07:49 pm

I have amazon prime and am with you, it ships fast and free shipping. Although I think it's funny that Amazon will give you an entire box when you order a small cable. I once ordered a single pen (thinking it was a box of pens), and they sent me a box that looked big enough to hold 2 laptops.. for one pen.

I mostly ship this way as well. And for the big things (like computers, high-end electronics ect) I actually prefer doing it online. I've shopped that way for years. The thing is, it used to be that if you needed an accessory for something, like a cable, you could go to a B&M store and pick it up for a similar price to what you would pay online, which is infinately convenient.

On top of that it doesn't seem like a very green practice. I hate to think that dozens of parcels are being delievered in a small fleet deisel trucks straight to homes when they could just be delivered to a single store that we all shop at anyway. But I'm not exactly rolling in the money, so I'm not paying 20 extra bucks unless I have to.

It seriously annoys me that the whole global infrastructure is so back-asswards that we can't do things in a way that makes sense.
Remember when we used to get clean, filtered, water delivered straight through our pipes? Well we were too good for that weren't we? Now we have to go to the store and hauls pounds of heavy water to our homes like it's the dark ages!

ChadTower · « **Reply #38 on:** February 28, 2011, 03:07:50 pm »

Quote from: pinballjim on February 26, 2011, 11:59:14 am

how'd you like it if someone came to your job and told you to '---fudgesicle--- off' when you were trying to do it?

The other day a guy came my job and knocked the squeegee out of my hand. I was like WTF.

Then I noticed it was a standup comic I heckled last month. Sonofabitch really did it.

hypernova · « **Reply #39 on:** February 28, 2011, 05:29:02 pm »

You can't be serious...

ChadTower · « **Reply #40 on:** March 01, 2011, 10:27:23 am »

Quote from: hypernova on February 28, 2011, 05:29:02 pm

You can't be serious...

I am serious. Thank you for not calling me Shirley.

fallacy · « **Reply #41 on:** March 11, 2011, 12:55:56 pm »

All Hdmi cables produce the same quality picture. If you want to argue, the amount of difference is not noticeable to the human eye so your argument is fail. If you did not pick up a HDMI cable for $10 or less from Amazon then you’re an idiot.

SNAAKE · « **Reply #42 on:** March 11, 2011, 01:24:42 pm »

Donkbaca · « **Reply #43 on:** March 11, 2011, 02:14:28 pm »

of course they are all the same, after I run them through my 500 dollar power cleaner...

shmokes · « **Reply #44 on:** March 11, 2011, 02:30:52 pm »

Is that actually true? I'm no electrical engineer, but . . . cables matter in the digital world too. A gigabit signal can't be reliably passed over regular CAT 5 wire. You need CAT 5e or better for that. Even though the connectors are the same and they all have the same number of wires running through them. And digital signals are not always necessarily all the way on or all the way off, it seems to me. You might just have packet loss, for example, which if minor can be compensated with error correction algorithms or resending packets, etc. I have seen digital video degraded a bout a hundred bajillion times. You have a scratched DVD and it might stutter and artifact, but you don't necessarily lose the signal entirely. I would imagine, and keep in mind that I am a layperson, that a poor quality HDMI cable might use too small a gauge of wires, or poor shielding that could introduce dropped bits especially in longer cable runs, leading to artifacting (i.e., image degradation), but not necessarily a complete loss of signal.

I'm not saying that you should buy expensive cables. I buy all my cables from Monoprice and have never had a problem. But is the case really as absolute as y'all are presenting it? Or am I misunderstanding something?

shateredsoul · « **Reply #45 on:** March 11, 2011, 03:58:23 pm »

maybe there is a difference, but I guess the point is that most ppl wouldn't really be able to tell the difference. In all my visits to best buy and other stores, only once did I feel the quality of the tv changed the experience.. but not sure if for the better. They were showing the fist pirates of the Caribbean and you could see all the make up, the hairs and stuff on their face, you could even tell which of the props were fake (i.e. fake wood).

I can't stand tvs that look grainny or too dark though =/ that I can see, but I can't see the diff between a super duper hdmi and a monoprice hdmi on the same tv

Samstag · « **Reply #46 on:** March 11, 2011, 06:52:47 pm »

It's definitely not true that all hdmi cables will give you the same picture. Most of the time a cheap cable will be fine for normal runs, but when you start getting into longer runs (or if you just have a really terrible short cable) you can get intermittent glitches. They may show up as full picture glitches, but it's also possible that you'll lose only partial data and start seeing some pixellation.

But you still don't need expensive cables. I buy monoprice cables, but will go for higher gauge cables with torroid filters for longer runs or devices that are really picky (like my PS3).

DaveMMR · « **Reply #47 on:** March 11, 2011, 07:05:19 pm »

From CNET: http://reviews.cnet.com/2719-11276_7-226-1.html?tag=page;page

Some key points from that post:

Quote

And if you get nothing else from reading this guide, you should remember one simple fact: There's no reason to pay extra for HDMI cables. (pp 1)

Quote

You should never pay more than $10 for a standard six-foot HDMI cable. And despite what salesmen and manufacturers might tell you, there's no meaningful difference between the $10 cable and the $50 cable. Unless you see something obvious, such as dropouts or a flashing screen, the digital information transmitted by both cables is exactly the same--no cable can make the picture any better or any worse. (pp 3)

If you feel better spending a few more bucks, go for it. But it may just be a placebo from what I've read. My three dollar cables have done me quite well so far.

By the way, cables in general made #4 on the list of this list:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19022_5-ways-hi-tech-retailers-are-secretly-screwing-you.html

ChadTower · « **Reply #48 on:** March 12, 2011, 06:47:06 pm »

Quote from: shmokes on March 11, 2011, 02:30:52 pm

I'm not saying that you should buy expensive cables. I buy all my cables from Monoprice and have never had a problem. But is the case really as absolute as y'all are presenting it? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I think you have the cable part pegged. What you're not accounting for is the fact that the movie on your disc, even if it's Blu Ray, is not of sufficient quality for the error rate of a cheap HDMI cable to be of real impact. We're talking about consumer hardware.

shmokes · « **Reply #49 on:** March 12, 2011, 08:13:44 pm »

That makes sense. But I always see it presented as an absolute, like it would be impossible for a cheap cable to produce an inferior picture. Specifically people say that your picture will be either perfect or non-existent because it's digital. And that doesn't make sense, at least academically. Cos I've seen artifacts and stuttering in digital feeds. Often. So it seemed that while it may be true in practice, cos HDMI has plenty of extra bandwidth or whatever, maybe people are actually misunderstanding the technical reasons that cheap cables are fine. In short, they're good enough, but not just as good. And, technically speaking, inferior cables can produce an inferrior digital image, it's just not something you have to worry about when it comes to HDMI. Because the HDMI spec is apparently robust, not because of the difference between analog and digital signals.

At least that's how it makes sense in my head.

newmanfamilyvlogs · « **Reply #50 on:** March 12, 2011, 08:59:42 pm »

If we're talking academically and in theory, the all-or-nothing view of digital IS correct, but the time domain in which it happens is not the same as how we perceive it. Stuttering sound and artifacted pictures are because most of it was there, and some of it was not versus analog where there is a procedural loss of signal which above some threshold we don't really notice.

shmokes · « **Reply #51 on:** March 12, 2011, 11:44:22 pm »

I think not, because by all or nothing we mean all of the picture or none of it, when in fact the existence of artifacting means some, aka not all or nothing. Of course when talking about bit by bit it is all or nothing, but that's not what most people mean when they claim that with digital it's all or nothing.

newmanfamilyvlogs · « **Reply #52 on:** March 13, 2011, 10:47:03 am »

Err, that's kinda what I meant.

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #53 on:** March 13, 2011, 11:54:01 pm »

Quote from: shmokes on March 12, 2011, 08:13:44 pm

Because the HDMI spec is apparently robust, not because of the difference between analog and digital signals.
At least that's how it makes sense in my head.

Kinda Sorta..... I'm by no means an expert when it comes to hdmi, so some of my details could be wrong but.....

Understand that hdmi is both a digital format (like a CD, versus a record) AND a digital transmisson protocol (like TCP vs... an analog tv broadcast). Both make a significant difference, but the second one is the one that makes cable quality pretty irrelevant aside from a defective cable that simply doesn't work at all. Much like data streamed over TCP, the hdmi protocol is a "smart" protocol that streams data via packets. Even if you lose packets, the device simply re-sends them and thus it doesn't effect image quality at all, it effects transmission rate. Fortunately the transmission rate on a hdmi signal is way faster than needed (it's future-proofed for possible post-processing of the image) so even if a cable is so crappy that it loses a bunch of packets (which in and of itself is next to impossible) all the packets are going to get sent to the display eventually and in a timely enough fashion.

So yes, the robustness of the hdmi signal makes quality degredation pretty much impossible. Even so, given the digital format of the video and the short cable lengths we are dealing with, this redundancy is unnecessary as you aren't going to see any signal loss even in a streamed, non-buffered transmission.

shmokes · « **Reply #54 on:** March 14, 2011, 12:03:44 am »

That makes sense. Thanks.

Vigo · « **Reply #55 on:** March 14, 2011, 02:05:20 am »

Quote from: shateredsoul on March 11, 2011, 03:58:23 pm

maybe there is a difference, but I guess the point is that most ppl wouldn't really be able to tell the difference. In all my visits to best buy and other stores, only once did I feel the quality of the tv changed the experience.. but not sure if for the better. They were showing the fist pirates of the Caribbean and you could see all the make up, the hairs and stuff on their face, you could even tell which of the props were fake (i.e. fake wood).

The Fist Pirates of the Caribbean? Is that some gay porno movie Best Buy was showing you?

You bring up a good point about things looking too clear sometimes. I remember a setup that they had at Best Buy where they were trying to sell BluRay and had a comparison between the BluRay quality and DVD quality of a battle scene. The BluRay shot you could see every little person in perfect detail in the background, as clear the main characters fighting each other in the foreground. I ended up preferring the DVD grade because I didn't know what I was suppose to focus on in the BluRay shot and ended up getting a bit dizzy from all that was going on. It looked pretty, but I lost some enjoyment trying to catch every detail.

MonMotha · « **Reply #56 on:** March 14, 2011, 02:44:14 am »

HDMI cable quality is a big deal. You're talking 4 signals which have to be synchronized to within a fraction of a bit period running at potentially a GHz or so for 1080p60. Double that for 3D. That is surprisingly hard to transmit over a wire of any appreciable length (more than a few inches). The quality of the cable will affect all sorts of things and could result in bit errors or clocking errors. The effects of bad cabling also get worse on longer runs. For a typical 6-10ft home A/V center run, the cheap $3-5 cables are generally fine. For a 100ft run, you probably need to spend more than 10x what the short one costs.

However, the nature of the problem is such that, in general, while the possible error is small, any given bit is just as likely to be affected as any other bit since each bit is sent one after another (this is simplification as TMDS symbols are actually sent, but that doesn't really change things much). An error in the MSB will cause a majorly wrong pixel color (changing it by half its total possible value) while an error in the LSB will likely be imperceptible except on a deliberately rigged test image (e.g. a perfect gradient). Clocking issues will be immediately apparent as image or line jitter.

In other words, if it looks right and isn't "snowy", it is right; your $5 cable is sufficient (and they always seem to be for me). In fact, the HDMI guys won't let you sell the cable with their connector (it's patented) unless it passes the relevant tests. I'm sure that not every cheap fly-by-night cable maker in China abides by this regulation, but I suspect most do since the penalties amount to "your products can no longer be imported into the USA". The tests include quite a bit of margin from the spec, and most receivers beat the requirements of the spec, anyway (they're more tolerant than they need to be)

This is contrasted with analog transmission methods: with analog transmission methods (component YPbPr video, RGB, S-Video, Composite), errors, which tend to be small, will always have a small effect on the received video. This means that you may not notice, but you have a "suboptimal" picture. Honestly, for short runs on reasonable cable, the error introduced by the ADC and its power supplies in your TV is probably worse, but inordinately bad cable is unsuitable for anything above 480i (and barely suitable for that).

A few notes to correct some incorrect information that's shown up in this thread:
HDMI does not include error checking or correction (though some errors can be detected in a non-robust way as an invalid TMDS bitstream).
HDMI does not include retransmission of bad data: it doesn't know it's bad in the first place, and there's no real reverse channel to request a retransmission, anyway.
The bitrate on HDMI is based on the resolution you run it at (unlike DisplayPort or SDI), and frames are not really packetized beyond the SAV/EAV framing that's present for blanking/sync information, anyway. Audio is inserted during the blanking period.

And yes, I am a EE (well, Computer - similar qualifications).

shmokes · « **Reply #57 on:** March 14, 2011, 12:29:39 pm »

Heh, that makes sense. Thanks. Btw, if there's no reverse channel, how do various devices turn each other on and off?

ChadTower · « **Reply #58 on:** March 14, 2011, 07:33:37 pm »

Quote from: shmokes on March 14, 2011, 12:29:39 pm

Heh, that makes sense. Thanks. Btw, if there's no reverse channel, how do various devices turn each other on and off?

Stuff like that is the crappy side of HDMI. When I got the only TV I have with HDMI I tried to set it up with a DirecTV DVR. HDMI, brand new DVR, one cable, woo! Except not woo. Every other time I used the remote's "all on" macro button I would get no sound on the TV. I spent an hour debugging, an hour on the phone with DirecTV, until finally I just switched to component/AV audio. The problem never occurred again. Searching AVSForum turned up many places where people can't use macros on their remote with HDMI but they can with other wiring types. I didn't mind going with AV audio because I don't have a receiver for that TV but if I did I'd still have to turn everything on separately and in a specific order.

MonMotha · « **Reply #59 on:** March 14, 2011, 10:55:24 pm »

There's the "CEC" ("consumer electronic control") channel allows the various interconnected devices to turn themselves on and off, set inputs, etc. It's a single wire bus that predates HDMI. It's known by the name "Anylink", "VieraLink", and similar names by various vendors. Its operation is 100% independent of the video signals.

There is also the DDC channel. This is the VESA comm channel also used by DVI and VGA connections to identify the monitor's capabilities. It can in theory be run in both directions, but in practice, only the source sends data to the monitor. DDC operation is also 100% independent of video signals.

Neither channel is fast enough for any sort of acknowledgement/retry system, even if you wanted to use it for such a thing. DDC is run at 100kHz (optionally 400kHz) and has substantial overhead resulting in a usable bit rate of typically <75kbps. The CEC channel is even slower, IIRC.

The DisplayPort auxiliary channel is quite a bit faster, but there's still no ack/retry on DisplayPort, at least not that I remember from reading the spec.

Oh, and if the HDMI CEC stuff bothers you (it bothered me when my TV randomly turned on in the middle of the night), many devices will let you disable it.

SavannahLion · « **Reply #60 on:** March 15, 2011, 01:31:56 pm »

Quote from: pinballjim on February 26, 2011, 11:59:14 am

Sketchy? I like how you assume what I look like PBJ.

Quote
However, I've heard they have a new (unwritten) policy that if the receipt isn't "tagged" (I assume with that ---smurfy--- highlighter) then they'll refuse any sort of exchange or return on that item. Even if you have the ---smurfing--- receipt from their store.

Think on that for a second - does that even make sense to you? You need your receipt tagged when you walk into the store with a return. All the bigbox places do it now. It's to keep you from buying something, coming back a week later with your receipt, walking inside and grabbing another one off the shelf, and 'returning' it to the store.

Re-read my post. I'm not talking about the tag/mark they put on the receipt when you walk in. I'm talking about the tag/mark on the receipt when you walk out. Some stores are refusing returns if that mark is not on the receipt.

SavannahLion · « **Reply #61 on:** March 15, 2011, 03:15:15 pm »

Interesting response. Whatever.

Moving along. Just a humorous thread illustrating the flip side: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60877.0

ahofle · « **Reply #62 on:** March 24, 2011, 08:28:55 pm »

An interesting epilogue to this thread...
My wife ended up winning a 'bag of crap' on woot.com (bunch of random stuff that won't sell thrown into a box for $3). One of the items in the box is pictured below. If you look closely, you will see that the original price was $99.99. On the back it actually says: "Supports the next generation 1440p high definition!"

newmanfamilyvlogs · « **Reply #63 on:** March 24, 2011, 09:03:01 pm »

Well you can use all the money you saved to buy this
http://www.guru3d.com/news/nec-multisync-pa271w-27inch-1440p-professional-display/

MonMotha · « **Reply #64 on:** March 25, 2011, 01:11:36 am »

4 or 5 years ago, I could reasonably readily get monitors with 1600 lines of resolution. My my how far things have progressed to get to 1440, now. It's amazing, I tell you.

whammoed · « **Reply #65 on:** March 25, 2011, 09:59:42 am »

Quote from: MonMotha on March 25, 2011, 01:11:36 am

4 or 5 years ago, I could reasonably readily get monitors with 1600 lines of resolution. My my how far things have progressed to get to 1440, now. It's amazing, I tell you.

LOL. I had a sony CRT monitor back then that could do that. Looked like hell at that resolution though. I'm sure there were larger sets that looked fine though.

MonMotha · « **Reply #66 on:** March 25, 2011, 10:26:37 am »

I'm talking about LCDs. There were several 26" models on the market (likely all using the same panel) about 3-4 years ago sporting that resolution.

I have a GDM-FW900 from the early 2000s that can do 2304x1440 at 85Hz and looks decent doing it, assuming you have a good video card. My laptops have trouble keeping up, probably due to aggressive EMI control components on their analog outputs, but some of my discrete graphics cards look pretty good. I usually run it at 1920x1200 @ 85Hz. While it can go higher refresh at that res, getting a good enough signal source for it to not be blurry is tough.

It could in theory do 1600 lines at 75Hz. I've not tried it, so I don't know how it would look. The pixel clock at 2560x1600 @ 75Hz is a whopping ~320MHz. I'm guessing many video cards' DACs can't really keep up (even if they can be clocked that fast, they probably don't have sufficient analog bandwidth), and the EMI control components will also start to cause a problem (though they're easily bypassed). Cable quality is VERY important at that point on an analog line.

whammoed · « **Reply #67 on:** March 25, 2011, 12:28:40 pm »

Quote from: MonMotha on March 25, 2011, 10:26:37 am

I'm talking about LCDs. There were several 26" models on the market (likely all using the same panel) about 3-4 years ago sporting that resolution.

Ah. Don't see any 26" models on newegg anymore but they have some 30" ones in that res.
What kind of price were those 26" models fetching?

link

MonMotha · « **Reply #68 on:** March 25, 2011, 12:39:54 pm »

My recollection is in the $1100-1500 range. Prices have certainly come down on LCDs, but sadly often so have the specs

I bought a 19" 1280x1024 S-IPS 5:4 LCD in 2003 for $800 (after $100 rebate), and I think you'd be hard pressed to get me to sell it now for that price. The viewing angles are superb, the screen protector is amazingly rugged (though it can glare a little bit), good black levels, and the resolution is just about impossible to beat at that size. My only real complaints are a couple of stuck pixels in the corners (normal and accepted at that time), and it's a little dim (partially due to age, and partially because new models have gotten brighter but usually at the expense of black level). Response time is a bit long (IIRC, it's about 20ms B-W), but that's not a huge deal for my normal usage. If want to game, I do it on my CRTs at 90+Hz

fallacy · « **Reply #69 on:** April 29, 2011, 01:33:24 pm »

Quote

Is that actually true? I'm no electrical engineer, but . . . cables matter in the digital world too. A gigabit signal can't be reliably passed over regular CAT 5 wire. You need CAT 5e or better for that. Even though the connectors are the same and they all have the same number of wires running through them. And digital signals are not always necessarily all the way on or all the way off, it seems to me. You might just have packet loss, for example, which if minor can be compensated with error correction algorithms or resending packets, etc. I have seen digital video degraded a bout a hundred bajillion times. You have a scratched DVD and it might stutter and artifact, but you don't necessarily lose the signal entirely. I would imagine, and keep in mind that I am a layperson, that a poor quality HDMI cable might use too small a gauge of wires, or poor shielding that could introduce dropped bits especially in longer cable runs, leading to artifacting (i.e., image degradation), but not necessarily a complete loss of signal.

I'm not saying that you should buy expensive cables. I buy all my cables from Monoprice and have never had a problem. But is the case really as absolute as y'all are presenting it? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Let’s put it this way. When you buy a new monitor which I am sure we all have, do you go out and spend $80 or more for a new DVI cable that has a box picture of flying through space attacking aliens? (I’m sure DaveMMR does) or do you just use the one in the box that comes with the monitor. You saint's note - don't try to get around the auto-censor please. I put it there for a reason. use the one in the box! Why? Because as long as your text comes in sharp there is no problem to begin with.

Well guess what; DVI and HDMI use the same standard. The only difference is HDMI has audio and DVI does not. So if you don’t care about the DVI cable when you hook up a monitor then why the F would anyone think a HDMI cable is any different?

SavannahLion · « **Reply #70 on:** April 30, 2011, 02:13:04 am »

Quote from: fallacy on April 29, 2011, 01:33:24 pm

Let’s put it this way. When you buy a new monitor which I am sure we all have, do you go out and spend $80 or more for a new DVI cable that has a box picture of flying through space attacking aliens? (I’m sure DaveMMR does) or do you just use the one in the box that comes with the monitor. You use the one in the box! Why? Because as long as your text comes in sharp there is no problem to begin with.

Just a note. You might not want to bypass the filter like that. It's not really necessary. If you want to say ---fudgesicle---, just say ---fudgesicle--- without doing anything to try and trick the filter. Let the filter do its job and keep the site somewhat family friendly. The rest of us, who choose to, can turn off the filter and see that you say ---fudgesicle--- and we wouldn't give a flying ---fudgesicle--- about it otherwise.

In any case... I'm impressed you're still able to buy monitors with cables.... HDMI and DVI cables even, packed in. Can't remember the last time I bought a monitor with anything other than the power cable packed in.

fallacy · « **Reply #71 on:** April 30, 2011, 03:08:55 am »

Quote

Just a note. You might not want to bypass the filter like that. It's not really necessary. If you want to say ---fudgesicle---, just say ---fudgesicle--- without doing anything to try and trick the filter. Let the filter do its job and keep the site somewhat family friendly. The rest of us, who choose to, can turn off the filter and see that you say ---fudgesicle--- and we wouldn't give a flying ---fudgesicle--- about it otherwise.

You can turn off the filter?

Quote

In any case... I'm impressed you're still able to buy monitors with cables.... HDMI and DVI cables even, packed in. Can't remember the last time I bought a monitor with anything other than the power cable packed in.

I have been working at computer support centers for the last 8 years and I don’t think I have ever seen a boxed monitor come in that did not come packed with VGA/DVI cables.

shmokes · « **Reply #72 on:** April 30, 2011, 09:06:47 am »

Yeah, monitors always have cables. And of course no monitor manufacturer is going to pack in a cable that was not high enough quality to work with that monitor. That would be retarded. HDMI cables, on the other hand, are almost without exception not packed in with devices that use them. HDMI cables have to be purchased separately, so you can't trust that they will work with your device the same as you could a pack-in cable. Of course, you can trust it in practice because HDMI cables in general have a reputation for working fine regardless of cost. But that still doesn't mean that they will always work either 100% perfectly or not at all on account of being digital.

DaveMMR · « **Reply #73 on:** April 30, 2011, 10:15:51 am »

Quote from: fallacy on April 29, 2011, 01:33:24 pm

Let’s put it this way. When you buy a new monitor which I am sure we all have, do you go out and spend $80 or more for a new DVI cable that has a box picture of flying through space attacking aliens? (I’m sure DaveMMR does) or do you just use the one in the box that comes with the monitor. You f.ucking use the one in the box! Why? Because as long as your text comes in sharp there is no problem to begin with.

Wait, huh? The cables I buy come in plain brown box.

And yeah, every piece of electronic I've purchased (TV, PS3, etc.) comes with the worst possible connection. Even many printers can't even bother to throw in a USB cable. That's why the overpricing of said cables is such an issue to begin with.

shateredsoul · « **Reply #74 on:** April 30, 2011, 03:30:28 pm »

Yeah, I don't use the av cables that came with the xbox 360 or ps3, I bought an hdmi cable for each (thank you monoprice!)

Monoprice is also great for printer cables, If monoprice were a person or a thing.. i'd marry it.


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