Universal Gear Shifter support in MAME discussion

[Xiaou2]

you could also use the NC tab on the switch for the other position

 That would then change the way the game is preserved in mame, and more wiring as well..  but more importantly, I believe some shifters already use NC, which further complicates things.

 Also remember that there are auto-center style shifters & throttles too.  AfterburnerII uses a pot based throttle that is sprung to center (medium speed), and you can press forwards to go slower, and backwards for super speeds with the Afterburner boost.

 It would also be nice to add another hack system... to be able to use a pure Analog Joystick style of shifter (IE: RaceDrivin), to control any digital shifter game... by translating the chosen coordinate (with slightly expanded range) to a specific gear state.

[SavannahLion]

X, I was wondering when you would arrive.

[BadMouth]

you could also use the NC tab on the switch for the other position

 That would then change the way the game is preserved in mame

I was speaking about cases where someone had an original shifter that only had one switch, but wanted to play other games which had more switches in the shifter.

The game the shifter was originally used on would fall under option #1 and it would function in the same way as it did with the original board.
"1. Input behaves as original would, including the game going into a default gear or neutral when no gear switches are closed."

A "Cycle Gears" option would let someone with a one switch pole position shifter play games that had 4 speed shifters.
I'm not so sure the option is worth adding for as much hassle as it would be to do.
It may be better for people who want to play a wide variety of games to just use a different shifter.

Also remember that there are auto-center style shifters & throttles too.  AfterburnerII uses a pot based throttle that is sprung to center (medium speed), and you can press forwards to go slower, and backwards for super speeds with the Afterburner boost.

I'm going to add another page to the spreadsheet listing other games that had unique controls that aren't as usable in MAME as they should be.
I don't plan to gather any detail about them yet, just going to make a list of the names and drivers.  
If you know of any others, make a list and post it.

There are also probably some omissions from my driving game list.
I noticed Road Blasters was missing.  MAWS had it listed under shooters.
I'm sure there are others I've missed.

[Xiaou2]

 Got Ya.  Sorry, but sometimes the way these things get worded confuses me.

A "Cycle Gears" option would let someone with a one switch pole position shifter play games that had 4 speed shifters.

 I think that would be a nice option for playing a game that has many gears, if you didnt have a real shifter.  It could cycle up to the top gear with one button, and down to the bottom gear with another button.

 However, I dont see how you could cycle something like 4 gears with a single switch 2way shifter... even if you had it wired as 2 switches.  IE: You would have to go up+down to get it to shift once... then up+ down for 2nd gear...etc.  How would you downshift for a hard turn?  (I supposed you could use a 2nd non-shifter button to reverse gear cycle direction? ) 

I'm going to add another page to the spreadsheet listing other games that had unique controls that aren't as usable in MAME as they should be.

 Excellent    Hope these will get resolved.  True Mechanical Rotary support would rock.

MAWS had it listed under shooters.

 Maws and all the other such lists are fairly Useless.  I believe they are based off of the one mame uses to classify controllers. Inaccurate Crap.  I also marvel in how many 'Historical' sites copy from it.

 ugg.  Such a sad state of historical butchery.  Hopefully that will change before true Accurate Data is forever lost.

[Haze]

In pole position, when changing gear there comes a little window on the screen saying "HI" or "LO", which looks more like MAME user interface message than part of the game, am I dreaming?

It is part of the user interface, yes, handled by the artwork system infact.

Again, it's one of those things that is designed to keep MAME easy to use on modern PC hardware.

[BadMouth]

True Mechanical Rotary support would rock.

Can you provide a list?



The spreadsheet of driving games is fairly complete now for the good & imperfect emulation status pages.
I'll continue to work on the preliminary page.
The red cells are important information that we're missing.
It's mostly the number of switches in a shifter and which gear the game defaulted to originally when no switches are closed.
(most of them are missing because the manual had the shifter assembly as a single part)
If you know first hand or have a good source for the info, post it here or send me a pm.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArE1chsgHXQodDd2ckdjLVY3Ujlad2tZWUpteDNtcXc&hl=en&authkey=CIrIhMwE

[Xiaou2]

From the WIKI:

49 way

    * SiniStar
    * Blaster
    * Arch Rivals
    * Pigskin 621 A.D.
    * Blitz
    * Blitz '99
    * Blitz 2000
    * NFL Blitz 2000 Gold Edition
    * NBA Showtime
    * SportStation
    * Gauntlet: Legends
    * Gauntlet: Dark Legacy

Mechanical Rotary joystick games (LS-30, Happ Mechanical Rotary sticks)

    * Battle Field
    * Top Gunner (bootleg)
    * World Wars
    * Ikari Warriors
    * Victory Road
    * Heavy Barrel
    * Gondomania
    * Bermuda Triangle
    * Time Soldiers
    * Guerilla War
    * SAR - Search And Rescue
    * Downtown
    * Victory Road
    * Midnight Resistance
    * Ikari III - The Rescue
    * Exterminator (unknown whether this used mechanical or optical rotary sticks)
    * TNK III
    * Battle Field (Japanese verion of Time Soldiers)
    * Dogosoken (Japanese version of Victory Road)
    * Makyou Senshi (Japanese version of Gondomania)
    * Guevara (Japanese version of Guerrilla War)

Optical Rotary games (Loop-24 or Happ Optical rotary sticks)

    * Caliber .50
    * Touchdown Fever
    * Touchdown Fever II

 (Optical I believe will always work just fine.  Only put them in here for documenting encoder disc count & possibly wheel diameters)

 Others listed that I have not verified status on:

 ----------------------------------------------------
Taito Rotary games (Twist-To-Aim, Push-To-Fire knob)
----------------------------------------------------
Frontline
The Tin Star
Wild Western

---------------------------------------------
Rotary aiming knob without push-to-fire
---------------------------------------------
Sherrif
Bandido (clone of Sherrif)

------------------------------------
Games that used Twist-To-Turn sticks
------------------------------------
Xybots


=====

 As for the spreadsheet... its good stuff.  

 Maybe could use a bit more details though.  For example, if a game has 3 pedals, a wheel and a shifter... and you mark analog for the controls.. it might be incorrect in certain cases.  2 of the pedals could be analog, one could be digital...

 Maybe break each control into its own sub-groups?

 Brake / 1 switch
 Gas / Optical / 4 states (Off+speeds 1,2,3)   <--- Sega Turbo's gas pedal
 Shifter / X+Y Pots / 5 states (1,2,3,4+R)
 
 Shifter / 3 switches / 4 states (1,2,3,4)
 Shifter / 2 switches / 2 states (Hi,Low)

 Brake / Optical (72 spoke encoder) / 2 gears (counts a,b)/ (Max of 30 spoke reading?) <--- TX1
 
 Hand-Grip Brake / Pot
 Twist-Throttle / Pot

 Oil Slick / 1 switch / TL button   ((TL = Top Left))
 Smoke Screen / 1 Switch

 Speakers / 3 Channels / (diameter) Left,Right, 12"woofer  - Sega Turbo
 Speakers / 4 Channels / Front, Seat L, Seat R, Seat Under    - TX1

 FFB / Shaker Wheel / 12v one way motor / crank arm moves wheel 1" in each direction
 FFB / Shaker Motor / 12v  Vibrational motor / Weighted. Provides engine rumble effect.

 ?Light 1 / Weapons Van
 ?Light 4 / Disc of Tron Floor Lamp
 T2 Gun Leds / 2 guns *  1 red 1 green (?)  / flashes on game firing rate


 The most simple request... Please sort by game name (Title).  Its easier to recall games by name than anything else.. and makes it visually harder to see/find by any other means.

 In the future, we really could use some sort of custom database program, where inputting information and possibly pictures, is a breeze.


 (Ive got a bunch of controllers Ive yet to Document. Will try to get things situated and update when I can)

[SavannahLion]

In the future, we really could use some sort of custom database program, where inputting information and possibly pictures, is a breeze.

Not specifically a database, I've always felt that a modified-Wiki would serve this purpose extremely well. Even if the Wiki required registration or some sort of restriction on who, specifically, is allowed to add or edit the content.

The reason for this is that while I feel that KLOV is a great great resource, KLOV is seriously lagging in keeping itself up to date. I often find links that are out of date. Pictures that are obviously wrong. New(er) arcade cabinets never seem to be listed. Strange categorizations. Inaccurate game descriptions. So on and so forth.

If a customized Wiki is assembled using custom(for a Wiki, standard for arcades) tags to describe and categorize the games then a true database can easily be extracted from that information. The advantage of a Wiki is it would allow a much larger number of people (who all likely own the game in question) to maintain and update the information accordingly. Being a Wki, you could really expand on the type of information available. Full blown schematics. Repair manuals. Part substitution lists. etc.

To avoid spammers and ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- information, you could restrict editors to someone who say.... actually lists the arcade as being owned. I dunno. I say it would be a far more viable long term option than what KLOV is now.

Note: Any database, Wiki, whatever, needs to have an ultra-flexible search routine. The one at KLOV sucks ass... It's way too precise in the search parameters. If I'm looking specifically for an Atari cabinet, why is Atari listed no less than FIVE times?! I get that Atari has gone under different names and/or partnerships but Atari is Atari. Let me look for manufacturer as a substring. Sheez. Controls are the same way. I get a joystick can have a button or two. But why can't I do a straight search for ALL 4-way joystick games regardless of whatever buttons they may have? And a stick with a trigger and LED is in a whole separate search category? Really? Wiki tags would allow a virtually unlimited level of sub-categories and search algorithms.

[BadMouth]

Spreadsheet in excel, sorted by game name is attached.
If you don't have excel, upload it to google docs (will automatically convert it).

Maybe could use a bit more details though.  For example, if a game has 3 pedals, a wheel and a shifter... and you mark analog for the controls.. it might be incorrect in certain cases.  2 of the pedals could be analog, one could be digital...

They are done that way, but you might have to click on the cell to see all the info in it.
(ex. Ridge Racer, Stadium Cross)

The info for the shifters is also there, but maybe could be formatted more clearly.
In the gear column, there are the number of gears, +N & +R if they had neutral or reverse.
I couldn't really tell from the manuals if a game had a neutral, so some of those probably need added.
If known, the gear that the game defaults to when no switches are closed is mentioned in the shifter hack column.

I have about 2/3 of the manuals for games on the preliminary page.  I may get those filled in this week, but that's all I'll get done for a while.
My primary focus was getting the driver and shifter information organized for anyone who might want to take on the shifter issue in MAME.
I also wanted a list of all driving games and what controls they used for planning my next driving cab.  

I'm not going to have time for anything but work for the next few months.
Feel free to download the attached version and modify it however you see fit.

The google docs version is available here: (same link as elswhere in this thread)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArE1chsgHXQodDd2ckdjLVY3Ujlad2tZWUpteDNtcXc&hl=en&authkey=CIrIhMwE#gid=0

[ids]

In the future, we really could use some sort of custom database program, where inputting information and possibly pictures, is a breeze.

Not specifically a database, I've always felt that a modified-Wiki would serve this purpose extremely well...

I'm up for the challenge, if enough people thought it to be worthwhile.  The more detailed "requirements" the better.  This is probably the wrong thread, so I'll start another....

[jennifer]

        No, your in the right thread.. and yes this does sound like a good idea.

[ids]

I didn't want to derail this thread - the title indicates a specific concern which indirectly leads to the "new database" idea.  So I created a poll to gauge interest: Do we need a new database?

I can hack up some PHP/MySQL or something if enough YES votes are counted.  I could use all existing info as a base, with the understanding that it may be flawed.  I could mark it as such, so it'll be flagged as needing verification.

[bkenobi]

True LS-30 support would be amazing!  MAME Analog+ hasn't been updated in ages (and it was a hack anyway).