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the state of mame

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Vigo:


--- Quote from: Haze on December 28, 2010, 08:52:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on December 28, 2010, 08:16:38 pm --- Theres no good reason why these emulated machines should not have ability to hook into CORRECT Arcade ACCURATE CONTROLS.  The main reason is of course nothing to do with developer ease.  Its to due with Care.  Devs Dont care about the machines they are preserving... which is why they dont go the full distance and get things 100% CORRECT.

--- End quote ---

You seem to think you know everything about everything, and why things are done as they are, despite not being involved at all.

You continue to post this same BS all the time, despite being told by developers of the project why things are done as they are.

You continue to only want to believe your own viewpoint, no matter how far from the truth it may be.

--- End quote ---

Pretty good 3 point summary of X2, Haze!  ;D

Methinks all this post rage about inaccuracies could be directed to make some good developments to MAME....oh wait...has that been suggested before?  :lol

ivwshane:


--- Quote from: Haze on December 28, 2010, 03:36:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: Warborg on December 28, 2010, 03:00:32 pm ---Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it.  One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware?  Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64...  More of a hardware guy myself...  ;)

Well...  Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars...  ;)

--- End quote ---

Getting modern 3d hardware to accurately represent graphics in a deterministic way (which won't differ from system to system) is near enough impossible.  Video drivers are nasty hacked up messy things and hardware implementations + capabilities differ from card to card, it' simply not that reliable.

There has been talk of using the pixel shaders on the next generation of cards to handle rendering, because they should be sufficiently powerful to do so, and give accurate output, however, with nobody to code such a system it's still quite unlikely to happen, and MAME would always have to have a software fallback for systems which don't have the hardware.

For the majority of cases where people think 3D acceleration would help however, it wouldn't.  A lot of the system requirements still come from the CPU emulation, which for various reasons is a lot slower in MAME than other emulators.

--- End quote ---

How hard is it to implement something like GPU hardware acceleration for increased processing power?

Rick:


--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on December 28, 2010, 08:16:38 pm ---Which again, is why there is a need for Money to pay developers to care, and get things 100% Preserved.  Not half A**ed like it is currently.
--- End quote ---

This brings to mind a couple of thoughts.

Firstly, "put up or shut up" comes to mind.  If you're going to go 'out of pocket' to support the developers, then do so.  If you're going to step up and do some programming, then do so.  Otherwise, this type of opinion is not appreciated, and is not the consensus of the community at whole.

Secondly, who are you to say that the solutions being provided are 'half assed?'  (Oh, and thank you for not trying to fool the spam filter.  Do we need to quote the rules again?)  Who do you think you are, calling out those who are working - out of personal expense and LOVE for the community and MAME as a whole - to give YOU something more than you had yesterday?  You'd be better to say 'thank you', and just step out of their way.  Really.

 :angry:

Haze:


--- Quote from: ivwshane on December 29, 2010, 01:14:41 am ---
--- Quote from: Haze on December 28, 2010, 03:36:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: Warborg on December 28, 2010, 03:00:32 pm ---Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it.  One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware?  Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64...  More of a hardware guy myself...  ;)

Well...  Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars...  ;)

--- End quote ---

Getting modern 3d hardware to accurately represent graphics in a deterministic way (which won't differ from system to system) is near enough impossible.  Video drivers are nasty hacked up messy things and hardware implementations + capabilities differ from card to card, it' simply not that reliable.

There has been talk of using the pixel shaders on the next generation of cards to handle rendering, because they should be sufficiently powerful to do so, and give accurate output, however, with nobody to code such a system it's still quite unlikely to happen, and MAME would always have to have a software fallback for systems which don't have the hardware.

For the majority of cases where people think 3D acceleration would help however, it wouldn't.  A lot of the system requirements still come from the CPU emulation, which for various reasons is a lot slower in MAME than other emulators.

--- End quote ---

How hard is it to implement something like GPU hardware acceleration for increased processing power?

--- End quote ---

In a way which is general purpose enough to benefit everything, flexible enough to be a basis of a cross-platform solution, while still being able to give guaranteed pixel perfect (or at least identical across cards / drivers) output for any given driver, and retaining proper 2d/3d mixing abilities, framebuffer readback, and correct timing etc.?  Hard, very hard.

That's why the general talk for it is more akin to doing a 'software renderer' on the GPUs using the shaders etc.

 

Vigo:


--- Quote from: Haze on December 29, 2010, 09:13:55 am ---
--- Quote from: ivwshane on December 29, 2010, 01:14:41 am ---
--- Quote from: Haze on December 28, 2010, 03:36:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: Warborg on December 28, 2010, 03:00:32 pm ---Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it.  One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware?  Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64...  More of a hardware guy myself...  ;)

Well...  Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars...  ;)

--- End quote ---

Getting modern 3d hardware to accurately represent graphics in a deterministic way (which won't differ from system to system) is near enough impossible.  Video drivers are nasty hacked up messy things and hardware implementations + capabilities differ from card to card, it' simply not that reliable.

There has been talk of using the pixel shaders on the next generation of cards to handle rendering, because they should be sufficiently powerful to do so, and give accurate output, however, with nobody to code such a system it's still quite unlikely to happen, and MAME would always have to have a software fallback for systems which don't have the hardware.

For the majority of cases where people think 3D acceleration would help however, it wouldn't.  A lot of the system requirements still come from the CPU emulation, which for various reasons is a lot slower in MAME than other emulators.

--- End quote ---

How hard is it to implement something like GPU hardware acceleration for increased processing power?

--- End quote ---

In a way which is general purpose enough to benefit everything, flexible enough to be a basis of a cross-platform solution, while still being able to give guaranteed pixel perfect (or at least identical across cards / drivers) output for any given driver, and retaining proper 2d/3d mixing abilities, framebuffer readback, and correct timing etc.?  Hard, very hard.

That's why the general talk for it is more akin to doing a 'software renderer' on the GPUs using the shaders etc.

 

--- End quote ---

Keep in mind i'm no programmer here, but is it a possibility to only focus on building support piece by piece for only one series of graphics card for the time being? I think there would be a ton of people willing to get an exact graphics card to gain the benefits of GPU acceleration.

I remember on some old PC games, the developers only worked on building support for 1 card. It made me think of this as a possible solution. And if hardware acceleration got buggy on emulation, it could possibly be turned on or off on a game by game basis. I would think that would be no greater compromise on emulation than the frameskip option.

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