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the state of mame

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Vigo:


--- Quote from: Haze on January 06, 2011, 02:39:54 pm ---If there are so many people who want to see what you're asking for here (as was the case with the other examples) it shouldn't be hard for you to form a team to get that done.  If you care so much about these things it becomes YOUR responsibility to keep that going while MAME continues to provide the core emulation library.  Derivative works have been created before, there really isn't much excuse.

--- End quote ---

When I say this, it is with the utmost appreciation for the work that you are doing. But with all due respect, why are you saying this?!?! I thought you wanted the hard working people to help with MAME? I'm sorry, but you started this as a plea to get fresh blood in on MAME. Now you are telling people who have different ideas to go do it themselves??

Let me pull a few quotes from your original WiP statement:


--- Quote ---So what’s the point of all this? Well, you can consider it the first part in a call for fresh blood
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---The real problem for the most part however is that the team needs fresh, new, capable developers
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---People continue to make demands of the project, from the outside, insisting that great portions of the project, and entire sub-systems are rewritten, and that improvements are made to their favourite drivers, and new systems and games are added, but from where I’m sitting, unless something significant changes, and new developers arrive, I can’t see most of those things happening.
--- End quote ---

I love MAME, and I think it has done so much good! But I am a bit irked at the political talk I'm hearing. You asked for people. You asked for new ideas. You said that people are making requests that can only be met if you get new people with new ideas. Yet you tell anyone who has a different view to go do it themselves? Sorry dude, but that is no way to get people in on MAME. You want people? Welcome their views, ideas and ambitions. Let them work on control support or whatever goal they have that is not your desire. It may not be part of the goal, but it does not contradict the goal. Its a good gateway to get people in on the project.

My 2 cents? There needs to be new blood in the upper tiers of MameDev as well. The project seems to be lacking vision, and is caught up in the day in day out work. Is that work important? Yes. Is it gonna help the project live on, be better, accomplish more as a whole? No.

abaraba:


--- Quote from: Haze ---- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?

correct

--- End quote ---

Did you just say ability to read authentic controls is NOT part of the "inner workings"?!

Not so long ago everyone agreed how third button on Yie Ar Kung-Fu ought to be addressed in MAME, even if it was not documented in manual nor accessible via authentic control panel. The conclusion was if that functionality is part of the actual game PCB, then it needs to be emulated/supported in order to be preserved/documented. -- By omitting *any* authentic functionality you are failing preservation/documentation purpose.



--- Quote from: Haze ---To create an accurate emulator requires users to be running it and using it on a daily basis in order to generate bug reports etc.  To have users requires it to be user friendly and enjoyable to use.  For this reason features which make it user friendly and enjoyable exist.  There is no excuse to develop software which is NOT user friendly on purpose.

--- End quote ---

Haze_A: Playing the games is side-effect
Haze_B: Making games look attractive and play well on common PC is necessary to attract people and get feedback

How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?



--- Quote from: Haze ---You are attempting to redefine 'accuracy' to be something that the development team DO NOT believe it to be.

--- End quote ---

Look at the dictionary, it is you who hopes to re-define "accuracy". You are not representing development team, that is only your personal opinion, and it's disturbing you managed to convince many you're some kind of "voice of MAME".



--- Quote from: Haze ---This is a minority viewpoint, and is not considered important.  Does this need repeating again?  This specific feedback has been acknowledged.  Your reply is 'we don't care, it's not in the project goals, nor does it help attain them'

--- End quote ---

Speak for yourself, you are not representing MAME team, or have you somehow convinced yourself that you do?



--- Quote from: Haze ---Scroll tearing doesn't bother me, most modern software has it.

--- End quote ---

Hahahaa, what?! Can you name one?

The first part is amusing, the second part is false.



--- Quote from: Haze ---Current hardware can only support limited refresh rates.

--- End quote ---

Hahahaa, what?! Who told you that?

What about AdvanceMAME, Powerstrip, Soft-15kHz, and Linux?


Haze:


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 06, 2011, 10:30:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?

correct

--- End quote ---

Did you just say ability to read authentic controls is NOT part of the "inner workings"?!

--- End quote ---

correct, controls are external.  The way external things interact with the PCB emulation is not part of the project goal.  Whatever we feel fits best will be used.  The emulation code can support whatever you happen to have, BUT you may need to modify the source if you have a use case which isn't the standard PC hardware one.  The input structures in MAME are clear to work with.


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 06, 2011, 10:30:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---To create an accurate emulator requires users to be running it and using it on a daily basis in order to generate bug reports etc.  To have users requires it to be user friendly and enjoyable to use.  For this reason features which make it user friendly and enjoyable exist.  There is no excuse to develop software which is NOT user friendly on purpose.

--- End quote ---

Haze_A: Playing the games is side-effect
Haze_B: Making games look attractive and play well on common PC is necessary to attract people and get feedback

How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?

--- End quote ---

There is nothing conflicting about these statements.  Playing the games is a side-effect of correct emulation.  To obtain correct emulation it is necessary to have people using MAME.  It's a CYCLE.  Come on, as I said, this isn't rocket science, you're looking rather stupid now.


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 06, 2011, 10:30:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---You are attempting to redefine 'accuracy' to be something that the development team DO NOT believe it to be.

--- End quote ---

Look at the dictionary, it is you who hopes to re-define "accuracy". You are not representing development team, that is only your personal opinion, and it's disturbing you managed to convince many you're some kind of "voice of MAME".


--- End quote ---

I was in charge of the project for a good few years, I know how these decisions are made, if I'm the only one with these viewpoints why is the code, which I have never even worked on, designed to exactly the spec I'm telling you, with the methodology I'm explaining to meet the goals I've explained to you.  You don't seem to be getting it.

MAME accurately emulates the PCBs the games ran on to a degree of accuracy deemed appropriate by the developers of the project.  NOT by you.  Next are you're going to tell us we should emulate all the atoms, just to make sure?


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 06, 2011, 10:30:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---This is a minority viewpoint, and is not considered important.  Does this need repeating again?  This specific feedback has been acknowledged.  Your reply is 'we don't care, it's not in the project goals, nor does it help attain them'

--- End quote ---

Speak for yourself, you are not representing MAME team, or have you somehow convinced yourself that you do?


--- End quote ---

Who is disagreeing with me?  As I said, I was involved with the team for long enough to tell you that this is why things are as they are.  Trying to discredit me makes no sense.  I've worked on enough drivers to tell you the expectations involved.  You've got other people in this thread explaining to you that Aaron said the same to them at trade shows.  


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 06, 2011, 10:30:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---Scroll tearing doesn't bother me, most modern software has it.

--- End quote ---

Hahahaa, what?! Can you name one?

The first part is amusing, the second part is false.

--- End quote ---

You've clearly not played many games, pretty much every PS3 game, and an awful lot of 360 games have severe tearing.  You might not like it, but it's a fact.
GT5 for example has it almost all the time.
http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103



--- Quote from: abaraba on January 06, 2011, 10:30:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---Current hardware can only support limited refresh rates.

--- End quote ---

Hahahaa, what?! Who told you that?

What about AdvanceMAME, Powerstrip, Soft-15kHz, and Linux?


--- End quote ---

It's common knowledge.  A TFT monitor offers nowhere near the range of refresh rates or resolutions as a traditional CRT.  CRTs are dead.  Modern graphic card drivers also offer less options.  The flexibility offered in the past isn't coming back.  AdvanceMAME won't even run on a modern OS which means you're even crippled to using a single core even where MAME can take advantage of more.  You're also crippled by only being able to have 32-bit builds, FAT32 formatted drives, low RAM limits..  I doubt it will be long before you can't even buy hardware that it works with.  Linux, I do wonder when it will die, they still fail on even the most basic of user friendliness tests.

What are you trying to achieve here, why are you trying to FORCE the development team to do what you want, instead of starting your own project to do what you want based on the already generous offering you're being given?  MameDev have done 99% of the work for you by actually emulating the things.

There has been talk in the past of changing MAME to be nothing BUT an emulation engine, where MAME doesn't have ANY concept of inputs other than a bunch of bits at an address, and outputs other than a framebuffer plus some bits to represent outputs.  In that case without an external program it wouldn't be possible to *USE* MAME at all, but it would still be emulating the PCB, just as is does now.  The fact that we provide a usable PC interface at all should be considered a bonus, but it's done for a reason as previously outlined.  In the end the idea was shot down, because having to rely on 3rd party software would just get in the way of development completely, and the devs would end up getting bug reports due to bugs in 3rd party interface software which they were completely unable to fix because it wasn't their code.



Gray_Area:


--- Quote from: spoot on January 04, 2011, 02:58:37 pm ---To be honest I think threads like this help push away contributors be it code, scans, bug reports, etc as after coming home from work does one want to deal with even more back and forth bickering when now they aren't getting paid for it?...I wondered if this is sumthing I wish to spend my free time on. Then I read threads like this and go "smurf it....I'm gunna go play xbox". I wonder if there are others that feel the same?   :dunno

--- End quote ---

What is there to 'deal' with? No one makes you read the threads. No one makes the devs read the threads. Sounds like a lot of people are feeling like little girls in these cases. Maybe they're feeling like that way at work, too...

saint:


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 06, 2011, 10:30:45 pm ---'How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?

--- End quote ---

Rules please - you can disagree without being rude.

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