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the state of mame
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CheffoJeffo:

--- Quote from: pinballjim on December 31, 2010, 01:52:33 pm ---"if you don't like it, then do it yourself ban ---my bottom---" doesn't really apply when the programmers trolls are actively stirring up debate on message boards.

Just sayin'.

--- End quote ---

Fixt
Malenko:

--- Quote from: pinballjim on December 31, 2010, 01:52:33 pm ---"if you don't like it, then do it yourself" doesn't really apply when the programmers are actively stirring up debate on message boards.

Just sayin'.



--- End quote ---

I also said he can play 720 on something else if he didnt like MAME. Like on midway Arcade Treasures ( on PS2, Xbox, GameCube, and even the PC) cause those programmers made a special spinner controller for.....wait, no they didnt. I remember buying that special controller for Smash TV on SNES, wait no, that didnt exist either! Xiaou2 wants to ---smurfette--- and moan but not do anythign about it.

Theres nothing wrong with wanting something better in MAME, but there is something wrong to expect it of devs.
Haze:

--- Quote from: Malenko on December 31, 2010, 02:44:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: pinballjim on December 31, 2010, 01:52:33 pm ---"if you don't like it, then do it yourself" doesn't really apply when the programmers are actively stirring up debate on message boards.

Just sayin'.



--- End quote ---

I also said he can play 720 on something else if he didnt like MAME. Like on midway Arcade Treasures ( on PS2, Xbox, GameCube, and even the PC) cause those programmers made a special spinner controller for.....wait, no they didnt. I remember buying that special controller for Smash TV on SNES, wait no, that didnt exist either! Xiaou2 wants to ---smurfette--- and moan but not do anythign about it.

Theres nothing wrong with wanting something better in MAME, but there is something wrong to expect it of devs.

--- End quote ---

It's also a little bit pointless blaming me for it.

I've never worked on the 720 driver, Aaron has.

I've never worked on the core code that deals with controls, Aaron has.

Nobody is claiming 100% accuracy.

"MAME is strictly a non-profit project. Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines." (from about MAME on mamedev.org)
The controls are on the outside, how we handle them isn't defined by this project statement.

Your beef seems to be with Aaron, the things you're complaining about are all things he is responsible for, yet you're using them to put me down, just because I'm explaining where things are coming from and why they are as they are.

PS PinMAME should be coming back to life, within MAME, or at least, the code will be maintained within the main tree, obviously MAME will never directly run Pinball sims with physics etc. on it's own, but you could use it as an I/O interface using the likes of MameHooker etc. I'm sure.  One of the devs painstakingly updated all their old code to compile again, although most of it has been stripped down to the bare non-functional minimum because the old code was just too old to work with any of MAME's current systems and employed gross hacks to do things that MAME can do natively now (eg creating a fake video system to display the LCDs etc.)

This kinda builds on the point I was making earlier about keeping things together; because they weren't most of it is going to have to be rewritten rather than evolving with the project as everything else has.



ark_ader:
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Haze:

--- Quote from: ark_ader on January 01, 2011, 10:37:17 am ---The exemption to this idea would be the Laserdisc Emulator, Daphne. Actual captures from laserdiscs enabled the project, to thrive.  The captures not an easy task to complete, and from the unauthorized distribution of active copyrighted material on the Internet, the developers used a novel distribution model with Digital Leisure, to promote their project and copyrighted material for legitimate users. That is pretty cool, considering it is from a preservation project aspect.  Would that be something difficult to implement in Mame?  

Yes the horse has already bolted out of the barn, and the past is just that, gone.  Can Mame become a closed project, or a symbiotic distribution outlet?

--- End quote ---

No, it can not.  MAME is an open project, such solutions tie it to a specific platform, and would force important parts of MAME (debugger) etc. to be crippled for copyright reasons (because it could be used to bypass any such system).  This has no part in a project like MAME and the 'no linking against closed libraries' clause specifically exists to prevent this type of abuse of the system.

Essentially doing this would kill the project because it could no longer be properly open and unrestricted.  MAME is a product of the public, for the public, in the best interests of the public.

Beyond that, there are more technical reasons too, the modern Digital Leisure based stuff simply wouldn't work under MAME's laserdisc emulation architecture which requires more data than just the visible video in order to work.  To get them to work you'd have even have to throw away the concept of properly emulating the system by hooking up hacks to bypass the actual emulation of the LD player and such (which Daphne does for everything anyway)  At this point it really stops even *being* MAME, and you have something like Daphne.... so, why not just use that?


--- Quote from: ark_ader on January 01, 2011, 10:37:17 am ---Mame's purpose for archival, which merits exclusion to the DMCA begs me ask this question yet again to Haze:  Has the Mame Team ever [to date] submitted the entire digital catalog of the Mame Project to the Library Of Congress, or will Mame ever be a partner of the NDIIPP?

If this not the intention, then making excuses afterwards for the project and participants is irrelevant and practically impossible to justify.

Mame is responsible under its own declaration to document the archival of arcade machines 100%.  

--- End quote ---

The answer hasn't changed from before.  You can let the developers get on with what they want, or you can tie them down with red tape in some effort to be more official?  Given how difficult it is already to encourage people to work on the project further red tape and other bureaucracy associated with something like the NDIIPP would, in my opinion, not help the project.  Governments, and related projects aren't known for their efficiency, and as previously mentioned, the development team probably only has a 5-10% US weighting anyway even if the current lead developer is American.

MAME is already recognized globally (aside from maybe by X2) as doing a fine job, albeit begrudgingly by some publishers who would rather not admit it has saved their skin more often than it hasn't.  Again, I don't see the point, I don't see any _real_ benefits, just additional pressure.  The DMCA does not concern MameDev at this time.  I would also expect any kind of official recognition to cause prices of uncommon PCBs to sky-rocket, which wouldn't benefit anybody except those hoarding the last few remaining copies of them, some of which are already no doubt incredibly close to extinct for this reason.  The manufacturers wouldn't be simply handing over their original roms, because I assure you, in most cases they don't have them anymore, or the IP ownership is so convoluted these days, they can't.

Every time you start bringing this up you seem very 'robotic' in your viewpoints, that everything has to be officially signed sealed and stamped to be acceptable with 1000 references to back everything up and that the DMCA is some big nasty stick being waved at Mamedev who are running into hiding in Afghanistan because of it.  Mamedev is organic, the project is organic, we get on with our own things the way each of us feel best.  It's the complete opposite of the way you seem to view it, and the things you seem to view as important are completely irrelevant to the developers of the project.  There isn't going to be any middle ground here, neither of us are going to agree.


--- Quote from: ark_ader on January 01, 2011, 10:37:17 am ---Mame is responsible under its own declaration to document the archival of arcade machines 100%.

--- End quote ---

MAME is _responsible_ for nothing.

I personally might feel a level of responsibility, but really, nothing is guaranteed.

Maybe some people would like MAME to be responsible for everything, maybe this is why development seems to be being taken for granted, but really, it isn't.  This was one of my original points, people just seem to think the existing MAME team will take care of everything.

Some people would like the TV to be responsible for their kids too.

Again there has been a strong shift in attitude here over the years, from when people were grateful whenever MAME emulated anything, to simply *expecting* MAME to emulate everything.  I think this attitude might also be putting people off.
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