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| Haze:
--- Quote from: keefyboy on December 30, 2010, 07:29:11 pm ---So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example? --- End quote --- I don't know the current going price for a PCB of it, but you're looking at $250 at least for just the decap fee, and it might require more than one try / attempt because it's a procedure that can just go wrong and kill the chip dead before being able to read the data, as has happened with several in the past. $250 is only because the guy is giving MameDev special discounts as well, his usual fees are much higher, but it also means that MameDev work gets a much lower priority. Unfortunately it's not a cheap or easy process, but in some cases it really is needed Heavy Unit is a good example of a game we've only been able to emulate properly now that the protection MCU has been decapped. The original (non-bootleg) Slapfight / Alcon is another that was done recently. |
| Dave_K.:
--- Quote from: keefyboy on December 30, 2010, 07:29:11 pm ---So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example? --- End quote --- $275 shipped for a Fire Shark PCB here. I believe he's in Taiwan, a good seller I've bought from before. |
| Haze:
--- Quote from: Dave_K. on December 30, 2010, 08:12:11 pm --- --- Quote from: keefyboy on December 30, 2010, 07:29:11 pm ---So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example? --- End quote --- $275 shipped for a Fire Shark PCB here. I believe he's in Taiwan, a good seller I've bought from before. --- End quote --- Checking the lists a new PCB might not be needed, it's already listed actually. 102 HD647180 QFP80 Fire Shark Decap & de-protect 19 HD647180 QFP80 Vimana Decap & de-protect 58 HD647180 QFP80 Teki Paki Decap & de-protect Which basically just means he has the chip and it's a case of time / money.. and the guys getting their priorities right. They seem to be decapping quite a lot *useless* chips which tell us nothing at the moment. However, if it were to fail (or if it's already dead..), then yes, another PCB would be needed. but yeah, with enough money those can almost certainly be decapped and read out for each game, granting sound emulation in them. |
| danny_galaga:
--- Quote from: Haze on December 30, 2010, 08:35:39 am --- --- Quote from: danny_galaga on December 30, 2010, 05:05:12 am ---Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work... --- End quote --- You can't really bundle up everybody into the same group. The Japanese / Asian developers have a different philosophy but the actual work is appreciated greatly by the community as a whole (including PCB owners, who are otherwise hindered by the lack of openness shown) The benefits beyond that are the ones I've already mentioned? Like having proper sound in the likes of Cyvern? You've got Mahjong games to thank for that.... When we get around to adding sound in the fighting game 'Rabbit' the two Mahjong games using the same custom chip will no doubt help there too. The same can be extended to adult games and others. If it wasn't for a bootleg Pocket Gal Deluxe showing up (if for example MAME ignored adult games, so buying it was never considered) it's possible that Boogie Wings and Diet Go Go would not yet be working because that seemingly pointless bootleg, and comparisons between the bootleg and the original sets allowed us to figure out the encryption on everything using the DECO102 custom. The Korean language quiz game running on Raiden 2 hardware has so far been proving to be an essential reference for improving the emulation of Raiden 2, because like many 3rd party games they use the protection in more obvious ways than Seibu, thus allowing it to be figured out more easily, piece by piece. This might still take years to do (or it could end up being done next year, who knows) but once that's all properly figured out a whole bunch of Seibu games from the early 90s, including the 'classics' Seibu Cup Soccer and Raiden 2 / DX will work. Even outside of emulation, Toaplan, who produced quite a few popular shooters before everybody went their own ways to form the likes of Cave, started off by bootlegging Mahjong games because they were popular enough that there was a high enough demand even for games which were just bootlegs of existing ones. They admit this in an interview somewhere. Don't underestimate the value of 'worthless' games ;-) --- End quote --- Another good point. But it still seems to me there are (very generally speaking) two schools of thought. Would make sense to have two groups who share info that relates to each others projects. One group does arcade games, the other does gambling/mahjong games. In a way, it would be emulating (teehee) what several games manufacturers used to do. Since the latter group aren't going to feel constrained by being absolutely faithful, they can soldier on with their work, while the former group might attract new blood interested in the work that group is doing. Both groups could then concentrate on improving games that need improving before moving on to newer games. Fresh blood seems to be a big problem, that could be a way to get some (",) |
| Haze:
--- Quote from: danny_galaga on December 31, 2010, 01:38:53 am --- --- Quote from: Haze on December 30, 2010, 08:35:39 am --- --- Quote from: danny_galaga on December 30, 2010, 05:05:12 am ---Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work... --- End quote --- You can't really bundle up everybody into the same group. The Japanese / Asian developers have a different philosophy but the actual work is appreciated greatly by the community as a whole (including PCB owners, who are otherwise hindered by the lack of openness shown) The benefits beyond that are the ones I've already mentioned? Like having proper sound in the likes of Cyvern? You've got Mahjong games to thank for that.... When we get around to adding sound in the fighting game 'Rabbit' the two Mahjong games using the same custom chip will no doubt help there too. The same can be extended to adult games and others. If it wasn't for a bootleg Pocket Gal Deluxe showing up (if for example MAME ignored adult games, so buying it was never considered) it's possible that Boogie Wings and Diet Go Go would not yet be working because that seemingly pointless bootleg, and comparisons between the bootleg and the original sets allowed us to figure out the encryption on everything using the DECO102 custom. The Korean language quiz game running on Raiden 2 hardware has so far been proving to be an essential reference for improving the emulation of Raiden 2, because like many 3rd party games they use the protection in more obvious ways than Seibu, thus allowing it to be figured out more easily, piece by piece. This might still take years to do (or it could end up being done next year, who knows) but once that's all properly figured out a whole bunch of Seibu games from the early 90s, including the 'classics' Seibu Cup Soccer and Raiden 2 / DX will work. Even outside of emulation, Toaplan, who produced quite a few popular shooters before everybody went their own ways to form the likes of Cave, started off by bootlegging Mahjong games because they were popular enough that there was a high enough demand even for games which were just bootlegs of existing ones. They admit this in an interview somewhere. Don't underestimate the value of 'worthless' games ;-) --- End quote --- Another good point. But it still seems to me there are (very generally speaking) two schools of thought. Would make sense to have two groups who share info that relates to each others projects. One group does arcade games, the other does gambling/mahjong games. In a way, it would be emulating (teehee) what several games manufacturers used to do. Since the latter group aren't going to feel constrained by being absolutely faithful, they can soldier on with their work, while the former group might attract new blood interested in the work that group is doing. Both groups could then concentrate on improving games that need improving before moving on to newer games. Fresh blood seems to be a big problem, that could be a way to get some (",) --- End quote --- Your logic really doesn't make sense. You're saying if I'm working on a driver, which has Mahjong games in, which are essential to getting the driver running properly, testing it properly and maintaining it properly I should just say "These are Mahjong games, I'm not looking at them, somebody else will" ? That's only going to severely delay progress and result in more bugs. The point is, to MAME, and the best MAMEdevs it's code and components, the nature of the game that comes up on your screen beyond that is irrelevant. As I've said before, the good developers relish the prospect of working on anything at all. If anything, the opposite approach works better, which is 'emulate whatever you want' Putting artificial restraints on what people are allowed to emulate can't help anything at all? Your approach is pretty much suggesting reintroducing the MAME/AGEMAME type split but for MAME/Mahjong, which ... didn't work, it only hindered development, created uncertainty (with nobody being sure if they should work on something, or who to contact about a PCB just in case it was gambling) MAME/PinMAME... yeah that worked well too, PinMAME is practically dead and unable to take advantage of any core improvements to sound/CPU emulation made in MAME now. It's also similar to the MAME/MESS situation, which ... while MESS is highly active .. isn't really working in cases where the hardware is shared, due to the separate teams and inability to test changes cross-project as easily which is becoming increasingly common, hindering development, and introducing bugs in both MAME and MESS. Splitting something which is otherwise identical across multiple projects with different teams has historically been proven to not work very well. Splitting the development of MAME and Mahjong drivers would have exactly the same effect. If anything it makes it look like there are even more 'political' problems within the team causing splits for no apparent technical reason or benefit. Remember, this is a technical project, not a 'free games of your choosing' one. |
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