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How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal?
Haze:
--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 12, 2010, 12:56:21 pm ---
--- Quote ---You buy a PC, you have your invoice, it's preinstalled with Windows and Office.
The copies of Windows and Office aren't legal, they've been installed from pirate copies of the discs using cloned keys, and they're infringing on Microsoft's copyrights and licensing.
Despite 'legally purchasing' your PC, you now can't use it properly.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying some retail stores are selling PCs with illegal copy of Windows and giving tax invoice for it? In that case the buyer is entitled to recover damages from the store that sold it. Again buyer is not liable to be prosecuted or charged with anything, if such store exists at all. There are no damages you caused and can be responsible to recover, unless you are the one who is installing illegal copies. Also, if you bought them with intention to re-sell and knew about the violation, then you could be charged as well, but again, I want to know about actual court cases, MS can say whatever they want, that still doesn't mean it can really stand in court.
--- End quote ---
Yes, some retail stores do this. This is why Microsoft introduced the Genuine Advantage program in the first place.
It's very clear that you have no right to use this software you illegally purchased, and no right to resell it.
This is the same as your situation. I don't believe Microsoft have lost any cases relating to WGA to date.
--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 12, 2010, 12:56:21 pm ---
--- Quote ---I've given you a real-world example of where buying a product...
--- End quote ---
Ok, we are discussing it now, though it would be better if we could stick with arcades, games and emulators.
I also gave you real-world examples...
1.) I have written statement from the custom office that they inspected the item. I do not remember the wording but I believe it was in fact a declaration that item is legal. That's what they were inspecting it for.
What's your response to this?
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Ask Namco, or one of the other companies whose copyrights you happen to be infringing on, hell, ask me, you're infringing on MAME copyrights. The customs office were mistaken or misled if they made any claim that the product was legal. It isn't. As the copyright holder of some of the code you're using, I'm telling you it isn't, and anybody associated with the MAME project would be within their rights to C&D your whole operation.
If you feel that you are a victim, please take it up with whoever sold you the PCBs, and customs for misleading you into thinking they were legal. Just like with the Microsoft case, that should be your first line of action, getting a refund for your illegal product. Failing that you should contact all the companies concerned and attempt to negotiate a licensing deal with them. I can tell you for a fact that you won't be able to, therefore your the product you have purchased remains illegal and cannot be resold.
Coming here and insisting your products are legal because you're a victim makes no sense at all.
--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 12, 2010, 12:56:21 pm ---
2.) U.S. International Trade Commission ruled that Nvidia violated three of five patents held by Rambus which could lead to a possible U.S. ban on the import of some Nvidia products. -- So, anyone who has, buys or sells this offending hardware is breaking the law and can be held accountable for trafficking or possession of illegal item? Or maybe, the government needs to issue a BAN on the particular item first? YES/NO
What say you, please?
--- End quote ---
I believe that would be a fair thing to assume, however, further details of any settlement between Rambus and Nvidia could change that and a licensing deal, retroactively covering the products could be (and given that they needed the technology moving forward, probably was) established, any damages awarded (to Rambus, the owner of the patents / technology being infringed upon) could also cover products already on the market if it wasn't. Patent rulings are not as clear cut as copyright infringement. 99% of these PC cases you keep bringing up involve complex licensing deals. Your xx-in-1 PCBs are neither licensed from the manufacturers, or MAME, nor has there been any kind of retroactive settlement that compensates all those who have had their copyrights infringed by this illegal product. The nVidia Rambus case was between two parties and could easily be resolved. The xx-in-1 boards involve copyright infringement of the IP of a whole multitude of companies, there is practically no hope of it ever being resolved. Even if Namco won a case against them, and their use and were compensated you'd still have to deal with Konami and all the others.
It's completely different.
RayB:
You know, it's an interesting point Driver-Man eventually got to (but dude, what took you so long to explain it logically?!?!).
What he's saying could be comparable to Tengen Tetris for the NES. They ended up making/selling a game they did not have the license for. So then they were forced to stop selling it, and I presume recall unsold stock [which was presumably destroyed].
So what then of the sold Tengen Tetris in customers' hands? I have never heard of Tengen Tetris being referred to as counterfeit, bootleg or illegal. I've only ever heard of it referred to as rare, expensive and highly collectible.
I've also never heard of public recalls due to IP disputes. Usually the end result of an IP dispute is Company X paying damages to Company Y (and then either stopping sale of the item, or paying license fees to continue).
It IS an interesting argument!
PS: Driver-Man, one thing I have to mention about the customs argument: The companies that own a particular IP must specifically request from customs that they look for and seize specific items. Customs does not make these determinations themselves, especially when we're talking about Intellectual Property. It would be too costly and impossible for an agent to know everything about every item. They have higher priorities like looking for weapons, drugs, and similar restricted items. These old game boards are just too small a "problem" to matter enough to the companies whose IP is being infringed on.
Haze:
--- Quote from: RayB on September 12, 2010, 02:58:28 pm ---You know, it's an interesting point Driver-Man eventually got to (but dude, what took you so long to explain it logically?!?!).
What he's saying could be comparable to Tengen Tetris for the NES. They ended up making/selling a game they did not have the license for. So then they were forced to stop selling it, and I presume recall unsold stock [which was presumably destroyed].
So what then of the sold Tengen Tetris in customers' hands? I have never heard of Tengen Tetris being referred to as counterfeit, bootleg or illegal. I've only ever heard of it referred to as rare, expensive and highly collectible.
--- End quote ---
It's become highly collectable *because* it's counterfeit / bootleg and most were destroyed. While Nintendo are unlikely to go after you for it (it's petty cash to them these days) there is no reason to think that the ban on sales doesn't hold true today (unless the settlement agreed covered items which had already been sold, and hence *Nintendo*, the rights holder, was paid for these)
--- Quote from: RayB on September 12, 2010, 02:58:28 pm ---I've also never heard of public recalls due to IP disputes. Usually the end result of an IP dispute is Company X paying damages to Company Y (and then either stopping sale of the item, or paying license fees to continue).
It IS an interesting argument!
PS: Driver-Man, one thing I have to mention about the customs argument: The companies that own a particular IP must specifically request from customs that they look for and seize specific items. Customs does not make these determinations themselves, especially when we're talking about Intellectual Property. It would be too costly and impossible for an agent to know everything about every item. They have higher priorities like looking for weapons, drugs, and similar restricted items. These old game boards are just too small a "problem" to matter enough to the companies whose IP is being infringed on.
--- End quote ---
Public recalls would basically be impossible. Note that for arcade gambling games this is pretty much what happened tho, if you consider the arcade operators in this case to be the public (who were sold the PCBs) they were forced to either return them for updates to make the software legal, or destroy them. In some cases they had no return option, only the destroy option. Due to regulation changes you can't legally operate many of them anymore, even if you have an original invoice from the time at which they were sold, and could, at one point operate them legally. Doesn't matter if you're the arcade op, or you picked one up yourself, you can't operate it, it's an illegal item, the software from that PCB should have been destroyed (which is why you often find bare / stripped gambling PCBs)
Similar applies when adult entertainment laws are changed, material which may have been legal at one point becomes illegal, you're meant to destroy it. Attempting to resell it could get you into all kinds of trouble, and a mark against your person that could ruin your entire career.
No, it's not fair, and yes, again, you become the victim, but tough.
lilshawn:
--- Quote ---CUSTOMS OFFICE DECLARED IT LEGAL
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i wouldn't say they deemed it legal, if you opened up a box and found a bunch of electronic components would you know if they where photocopier parts or components to a nuclear bomb?
the machine you ordered, by itself is not illegal. but without powering it up and looking at the code contained therin, which IS being sold illegally. the customs inspector cannot know this by simply looking at the pcb contained inside the box. the fact that it slipped through in the first place would be about as good as your statement would be to hold up if you ended up in court over it.
now, if there was a paper on the top of the pcb that said "this pcb contains 200 copyrighted videogames" i don't think you would have recieved it, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
--- Quote ---What he's saying could be comparable to Tengen Tetris for the NES. They ended up making/selling a game they did not have the license for. So then they were forced to stop selling it, and I presume recall unsold stock [which was presumably destroyed].
So what then of the sold Tengen Tetris in customers' hands? I have never heard of Tengen Tetris being referred to as counterfeit, bootleg or illegal. I've only ever heard of it referred to as rare, expensive and highly collectible.
I've also never heard of public recalls due to IP disputes. Usually the end result of an IP dispute is Company X paying damages to Company Y (and then either stopping sale of the item, or paying license fees to continue).
--- End quote ---
i would imagine that Tengen would have had to pay for those carts that "got away" and where sold. therefore while still highly rare and collectible, have had the reparations paid for their production and subsequent sale by tengen.
RayB:
--- Quote from: lilshawn on September 12, 2010, 04:32:56 pm ---i would imagine that Tengen would have had to pay for those carts that "got away" and where sold. therefore while still highly rare and collectible, have had the reparations paid for their production and subsequent sale by tengen.
--- End quote ---
Do you not see the complexity of the issue in your answer there? If the plaintiff company has had reparations for the "damages", then is any cartridge still out there "illegal"? Should a collector who comes into possession of Tengen Tetris be stripped of it as if it were "stolen goods? Should that game be confiscated at border crossings?
DriverMan presented an interesting paradigm here (if you can disregard the naive arguments he wrapped it in). I know the likely answer is to err on the side of caution; ie: they contain infringing content, but when you buy a board, you are not copying the IP. Someone else is guilty of that action. AFAIK there's no "possessing" laws regarding infringing IP, it's always in regards to the act of copying, downloading, etc. It is not the same as stolen goods. The more I think about it from this point of view, the greyer it seems, and I or anyone else here would be foolish to try and pick an answer with any certainty.
Haze: Equating copyrighted materials to Porn or gambling laws is a bit of a stretch.