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How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal?
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Haze:

--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 11, 2010, 12:57:56 am ---None of that really applies here.

Q1.) If you buy X-in-1 in retail shop and get an invoice for it, then is it illegal to operate or re-sell that PCB? YES/NO

I'd say this has no longer to do with any copyrights, as once the item is on the market like this, and has been taxed by the government, it is the consumer rights that would protect buyer/seller/re-seller from any liability. Whether the factory can be brought to court and how that varies with state or country is not important here. -- Now, please point out what copyright notice is the one that applies here? Did we not conclude that even original PCBs came without any such proof of originality, so please tell us where do we find this relevant game copyright info, let us read what it says, ok?

--- End quote ---

It's still an illegal product, It's illegal to resell or operate.  Ignorance is no defence.  Being taxed by the government has nothing to do with it, how were they meant to know the exact legal status of the item, that's your responsibility, just as it is when buying any other product.  If I sell and invoice you for a 'luxury powdered substance' and pay the government what they're due do think think the cops are going to be any more lenient on you when they find you reselling it on the street corner?


--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 11, 2010, 12:57:56 am ---Q2.) Was Ultracade found guilty? YES/NO

You are being theoretical and vague, I'm trying to be practical and specific. I think people understood I want to sell MAME and ROMs, while what I'm actually saying is that all that should be FREE, so no one would be selling it. I do not apply this to all games, especially not any new or young games, just the games that are no longer distributed and whose existence is therefore threatened to fall into oblivion and be forgotten - "abandonware".

--- End quote ---

'Should be free' is your opinion, but unless the companies release them for free, or the copyrights expire, they can't be considered free.  If you want to do something about that you'll have to somehow get all copyrights shortened, or conditionally made to expire once a product has 'no commercial value'.  Until that happens (which it won't) it's still a legal minefield.  Most of the boards you're talking about are running unlicensed copies of MAME anyway, so it would still be illegal even then.  Note, these things also run Pacman / Ms Pacman / Galaga and so are in DIRECT competition with the new rereleases Namco are pushing out, that would be your biggest threat.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/24691/InDepth_Exploring_Ultracades_Alleged_Counterfeit_Arcade_Game_Racket.php

is still the latest update on Ultracade / Foley afaik.

I believe there was a previous case where they were forced to stop using unlicensed Namco property too, it's been mentioned a few times.
Osirus23:
Your own personal moral justification of something doesn't change the law.

Many of the classic Nintendo, Arcade, etc. games ARE still being sold by the copyright owners via Virtual Console and XBLA Gameroom, so the "abandonware" (threw up in my mouth as I typed that) argument really doesn't fly anyway.
taylormadelv:
There is a double standard when dealing with x in 1's vs full blown mames with Front Ends. Just because the games can be tidly fitted onto a small PCB and installed in almost any classic cabinet, they seem "ok" but we all know they are just as illegal as running mame.
Here's another thing to consider; operators that ran "bootleg" versions of popular games in the 80's would probably just run mame in a newer more "money making" cabinet today. What's the difference to the bootleg operator? None. They were willing to break the law back then and they still are now. The term "bootleg" feels less severe than the world "illegal" as it's used to describe mame machines. But that old hacked Ms Pacman or Frogger cabinet with a "bootleg" PCB was/is just as illegal as running the game today in mame.
nitz:

--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 11, 2010, 04:37:24 am ---I don't see see how that relates with 'selling pot' on the street. That's the opposite, there is no invoice there, while these x-in-1 are sold in retail stores and taxed, therefore "inspected and approved" by the government.

--- End quote ---

What, your drug dealer doesn't give you an invoice? :lol

But seriously, I know my example was a bit simplistic and obvious, but I was just trying to make the point that just because someone sells something and doesn't get in trouble doesn't mean it's legal. And something being sold in a retail store and taxed does not mean it's inspected and approved by the government. Do you really think the government inspects every single thing that ever gets sold in a store?


--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 11, 2010, 04:37:24 am ---C'mon, I'm not really saying those laws are not there, but they do differ from place to place, and even if not they would still be open for interpretation and subject to circumstances. I am trying to understand how all that theory plays out in practice.

--- End quote ---

Ok, I sort of get where you're coming from. Sometimes something can be against the law, but in real life has a net effect of not really being against the law. A good example of this is that where I live, it is actually against the law to smoke within 30 meters of the entrance of a public building. However, the cops don't enforce it unless people complain, and it seems that no one ever complains, so I see people doing this every day. Are they breaking the law? Technically yes, but a law is virtually meaningless if it's not enforced which I guess is the case most of the time when it comes to xx in 1 boards and the like. Maybe this is the point you're trying to make, and if so, I get it.

BUT


--- Quote from: Driver-Man on September 11, 2010, 04:37:24 am ---Yes, I say: "buying it in retail store and getting an invoice = it IS legal to operate and re-sell".

--- End quote ---

That's just not true in any country that recognizes copyright law (which is most if not all developed countries I would imagine). If you were to operate and re-sell one board, the chances of you getting caught and getting into trouble are slim to none. But don't kid yourself. It ain't legal.

When I first discovered emulation about 10 years ago, I really wanted to download a NES emulator and the roms so that I could enjoy all those old games again (I stupidly sold my NES and games in the mid '90s to buy some SNES games :banghead:). This was in the days before Nintendo started selling many of them again on the virtual console. So I just kind of thought to myself, "Well, Nintendo doesn't sell these anymore, so I could go on ebay and pay inflated prices for 10+ year old cartridges that might not even work properly, with Nintendo never seeing any of that money anyway, or I could just download the roms for free, so I'm just gonna do that!" But never for a second did I think that downloading the roms was legal. Whether or not they're still being sold or anyone is making money from them or anyone would get hurt blah blah blah is not relevant. If they're under copyright, it's illegal to deal in unlicensed copies of them. Morally however, it's not a problem IMO.


--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo on September 11, 2010, 08:30:24 am ---I am failing to see what the actual issue is here, other than Driver-Man doesn't seem to get that the law is the law and all he is saying is that it shouldn't be (gee, THAT's original).

--- End quote ---

You're absolutely right Cheffo! You summed up all of our rambling in one nice sentence. Reading that just made me realize that I should probably just walk away now. Thank you! :notworthy:

I am slowly...backing...away...from the thread now. ;)

Driver-Man:

--- Quote ---It is NOT legal to operate or resell an illegal board, no matter where/how you obtained it.

--- End quote ---

It IS legal if it is taxed by the government, free to import and available in retail stores. Hello?! There are/were many products on the market that violated various copyrights, but that is nothing you are supposed to know about, and in most cases is impossible to know without disassembling or reverse engineering the thing.

You THINK it SHOULD BE illegal, perhaps you think so about alcohol too, but as long as the customs let this item pass the border and you can buy it in retail store, get invoice and pay GST, then TECHNICALLY it is LEGAL, and "technically" is all what matters in court. Where do you draw your conclusions from anyway? Can you give some other examples of illegal stuff being freely imported and sold in shops everywhere? That would be obvious contradiction, those two go together, one implies the other.

I'm not talking about whether it violates copyrights, or is bad for health, whether I like it or think how it should be, I'm simply making conclusion from what is obvious, and I'm not even saying it makes sense, it doesn't. But hey, there was once real cocaine in Coca-Cola, and that was legal for a while, or so they say.

 

--- Quote ---The situation is black and white and not open for interpretation nor subject to circumstances. It is pure folly to assume that because something is available for sale (which is all that the "sold in retail stores and taxed" means) that it is legal and does not infringe.

--- End quote ---

I find it strange you express your assumptions with such certainty.. it's not that you may fool others, but if you keep like that you will actually make yourself believe in your own imagination. -- Look, the part of the reason you pay taxes is so your government will take care of you and not allow illegal items be available on the legal market. If it is available in stores and therefore taxed by the government, then it is AUTOMATICALLY legal. That's kind of the definition of what "legal" means.

LEGAL ITEM = FREE TO IMPORT, AVAILABLE IN RETAIL STORES ....hello?!?!



--- Quote ---I see bootleg DVDs for sale all the time -- are they legal ? No and you would never think so if you have even an ounce of grey matter bouncing around inside that cavernous skull.

--- End quote ---

Where in the world do you see similarity?

Are those DVDs available in retail stores and can you get an invoice for it?
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