Basement Theater/Game Room [Finished!]

[DNA Dan]

I see what you mean by the bathroom location. I didn't realize it was right on the stairs. A "no crapping" rule ? That's too funny...Using the existing plumbing you're right, you'd have to spend a lot on this to change this into something more useful. I could see maybe bumping into the kitchen just past the stairs and making the opening just in front of the stairs. Either case you'd have to spend a big portion of the budget to achieve this.

In regard to the island, the only drawback to having your stove there is it limits you with the ventilation. For instance, if you wanted a charbroiler grill in your stove, you'd need about 1200 CFM of ventilation and that would mean a big coffin sized hood over the island to catch the smoke. This is not only expensive, but looks terrible IMO. If however you just want to cook on the stovetop, there are downdraft vents that pop up from the back and work quite well. I could easily see keeping the wall there, but just making a huge opening that spreads out to a raised bar. This would be relatively cheap to do. In regard to the sink, that could swing just under the windows with the refrigerator being turned 90 degrees. This would basically normalize the kitchen into a "galley" style and make the end by current sink position completely open.

I guess the best advice would be to make a list of what is important to you guys and limit the scale of the expansion. Reason I say that is if you do everything only halfway, you're going to end up with something that doesn't function at all for you. If however you focus on a few big things such as fixing that bathroom, kitchen and dining area, then even if you don't get the entire expansion done, at least you will have fixed some serious layout issues with the house. Another area to save a lot of money is the finish. If you are handy enough to complete the finish work, you can save a grip of cash. See what contractors will charge for completed rough-in only. With the economy the way it is, you should be able to score some deals. I believe that is all you need to have completed to get final inspection approval.

[mpm32]

I said this on 9/7/10

Ha $3000? for an architect?  They usually charge between 10 and 15 % of the total cost of the job.  So if your addition is $150,000 you can expect to pay $15,000 to the architect.  And since he's getting a piece of the total, you can bet your $150,000 will turn into $200,000+.  Now he also project manages too so you get that for your money.

You need to find someone to draw you the plans, doesn't have to be an architect.




Are you getting charged a percentage of the total job?  If so, you can see why they show you the over budget plans.  It doesn't cost them anything in ink to draw over budget and up their profit.

[DNA Dan]

<--- Doodle sketch artist for hire  (Only charges flat rate, no extra ink fees.)

[yotsuya]

I dunno, maybe it's just where I live, but $150,000 could buy you a whole new HOUSE.

[eds1275]

I dunno, maybe it's just where I live, but $150,000 could buy you a whole new HOUSE.

Definitely where you live. I don't live anywhere overly glamourous, and $150k will get you a shack with an outhouse - maybe. Then again, wages are also probably lower on average than they are where J lives.

[SNAAKE]

I dunno, maybe it's just where I live, but $150,000 could buy you a whole new HOUSE.

where the hell do you live

for 150k I can buy a nice....bathroom around here.

[yotsuya]

I live in Arizona. You can get a nice foreclosure right now for that price.

For example: http://www.azsearchforhomes.com/idx/mls-4548942-3006_e_muirwood_drive_ahwatukee_az_85048

[yotsuya]

BTW, I'm sure where J lives, that's the going rate. I guess the real estate numbers here in the Southwest have skewed my perception of costs.

[DNA Dan]

You can BUILD a house for that amount where I live. That's what I hate about the economics of that industry. Sure the costs of doing business and getting materials is probably more where he lives, but they will charge whatever the market dictates. I'd get as many good estimates as you could then just sit on them. See who calls back or is willing to give you a second look. Might be an indication they are hungry for business. I tell you what, everytime I go into Lowe's or Home Depot these past few months the stores are DEAD in my area. No one is really spending cash on their homes right now. It's weird how some states are recovering pretty good and some are just wallowing in one economic crisis after another.

(Of course market conditions apply and may be different in your area.)

[javeryh]

You guys are right on about where I live - it is super expensive here.  I'm right outside of NYC.  As you can see by the plans, I've got about 700sqft. of living space per floor right now meaning my entire house is only 1300sqft (the room on the right on the first floor is only one story).  Also, we are only sitting on 0.14 acres of land and the town code limits you to a maximum of 20% lot coverage.  It boggles my mind that just adding a room to the back of the house can cost so much money.  We have thought about how awesome it would be to move to somewhere much cheaper but all of our family is on the east coast and the kids are in school (and the schools here are excellent) and all of our friends are here and we love the town otherwise.

The reason we need the architect is because we need a variance.  With the variance we will be able to get up to 22% lot coverage and every inch counts when you are in such a confined space (relatively speaking).  There are a lot of politics at work here and I am virtually guaranteed to get town approval if I go through an architect whereas if I go before the zoning board myself it's a 50/50 shot.  Also, with the excavation of my basement, I need someone to oversee things and make sure they are being done properly.  She told us that her final costs would be about 7% of the cost of the job on average although she charges hourly.  Her estimate was $250K so 7% is still quite a lot ($17,500).  Ugh.  I'm depressed just typing this out...

[DNA Dan]

Well despite the costs, it sounds like you are in an area where you will at least retain your value. Think of it as an investment. I know a lot of folks like the appeal of an older neighborhood. If you have a newer, updated home in a great location, all the better.

[javeryh]

Well despite the costs, it sounds like you are in an area where you will at least retain your value. Think of it as an investment. I know a lot of folks like the appeal of an older neighborhood. If you have a newer, updated home in a great location, all the better.

yeah, we are fairly certain we could retain the value of the addition.  Our house has actually increased over 20% in value since we moved in 7 years ago which is incredible considering the rest of the country seems to be underwater.  If we do the update I'm fairly certain we could get our money back if we decide to sell but if we go through with this we are basically saying we are going to be here for the next 20 years so "investment" and "value" kind of go out the window.

[DNA Dan]

I hear you. At some point you just have to make it comfortable for the long haul. A lot of people shutter to think about staying in the same place for 10, 20 or even 30 years, but before you know it we'll be teaching the kids how to drive, then going to their weddings so they can start their own families. That's why this arcade cab has become such an important thing to me right now. It's just something from my youth that was always there. You could always count on going to the mall and hanging at the arcade after school. Or have some buddies over to play the new Colecovision. There are so many memories I have built around arcades and gaming consoles. It was a big part of my adolescence.

I say if you have the means, DO IT. None of us is getting any younger, and how nice would it be to have your house all done and be enjoying it? Not 10 years down the road, but sometime in the next year?

[javeryh]

Well DNA Dan, I'm taking your advice.  I lined up some contractors to come out to the house and take a look and start giving me estimates.  I totally agree about doing things now rather than later if you have the means (which I do... sort of... I think).  The whole point of building a kickass basement and making the house bigger is for my kids (6-1/2 and almost 4).  Every year I wait is lost time.

Tomorrow the first contractor comes over to take a look at the house and the plans I've had drawn up.  He seemed to indicate that if I have the floor plan he can just run with that as most of their projects are designed by their internal team rather than an actual architect.  We shall see...

[leapinlew]

Well DNA Dan, I'm taking your advice.  I lined up some contractors to come out to the house and take a look and start giving me estimates.  I totally agree about doing things now rather than later if you have the means (which I do... sort of... I think).  The whole point of building a kickass basement and making the house bigger is for my kids (6-1/2 and almost 4).  Every year I wait is lost time.

Tomorrow the first contractor comes over to take a look at the house and the plans I've had drawn up.  He seemed to indicate that if I have the floor plan he can just run with that as most of their projects are designed by their internal team rather than an actual architect.  We shall see...

Javery, I've worked with lots of contractors and I am going to assume you haven't. If you have, ignore this advice or at the least - don't take offense to it.

When it comes to the payments, there should be milestone payments setup to protect both you and the contractor. I prefer to not pay until the milestones are accomplished, but sometimes I pay before hand. For example, we just had a pool installed and the milestones were:

Agree on plans, sign contract = 5% 
complete digging hole = 5%
Delivery of pool = 50%
Installation of pool = 10%
Installation of Electrical/plumbing = 10%
concrete installation = 5%
Final Grade of yard/cover/misc = 5%

I only paid as the job proceeded and inspections were passed. I've been burned in the past and would hate to see anyone else put in the same position. If a contractor needs a lot of money up front, it's a red flag to me. I've seen these guys get caught up in their own pyramid type schemes completing work for past customers using future customers money. In the end, somebody is going to get burned.

[Necro]

Javery - totally feel for you.  I live in the DC area and our prices are obscene as well.  $150k won't even get you a condo (well, maybe an efficiency) around here.  Hell, townhouses in the decent neighborhoods start at $300k.  I'm in the process of reviewing my basement setup now to try to 'make more space' so I can get a pinball machine in there ...if possible.

[pinballjim]

For example, we just had a pool installed

In St. Louis??   

Well, it'll be fun 2-3 months of the year, I suppose.

[HaRuMaN]

For example, we just had a pool installed

In St. Louis??   

Well, it'll be fun 2-3 months of the year, I suppose.

He could always build the redneck pool heater:

[javeryh]

Well DNA Dan, I'm taking your advice.  I lined up some contractors to come out to the house and take a look and start giving me estimates.  I totally agree about doing things now rather than later if you have the means (which I do... sort of... I think).  The whole point of building a kickass basement and making the house bigger is for my kids (6-1/2 and almost 4).  Every year I wait is lost time.

Tomorrow the first contractor comes over to take a look at the house and the plans I've had drawn up.  He seemed to indicate that if I have the floor plan he can just run with that as most of their projects are designed by their internal team rather than an actual architect.  We shall see...

Javery, I've worked with lots of contractors and I am going to assume you haven't. If you have, ignore this advice or at the least - don't take offense to it.

When it comes to the payments, there should be milestone payments setup to protect both you and the contractor. I prefer to not pay until the milestones are accomplished, but sometimes I pay before hand. For example, we just had a pool installed and the milestones were:

Agree on plans, sign contract = 5% 
complete digging hole = 5%
Delivery of pool = 50%
Installation of pool = 10%
Installation of Electrical/plumbing = 10%
concrete installation = 5%
Final Grade of yard/cover/misc = 5%

I only paid as the job proceeded and inspections were passed. I've been burned in the past and would hate to see anyone else put in the same position. If a contractor needs a lot of money up front, it's a red flag to me. I've seen these guys get caught up in their own pyramid type schemes completing work for past customers using future customers money. In the end, somebody is going to get burned.

Thanks lew - that's great advice.  I was thinking about setting something up like this with the contractor once we get down to business.  My biggest fear is getting burned because you hear so many horror stories.  Almost everyone I know says they liked their contractor but... and ultimately can't recommend them because of the "but" which usually revolves around money/payments/estimates.

I had my meeting this morning and it didn't go so great... his ballpark estimate was $300K!!!  For a 25'x15' 2 story addition plus basement.  It can't get any easier or more basic than that.  How is that even possible?  Insane.  I'm starting to think this will never happen...  I have a few more appointments though so we will see how it goes...

 

[HaRuMaN]

For that much money, you could buy a 4000 sq ft house with a 3 car garage and a pool out here...   

[Firebat138]

so about $250/ sq. ft.  Ouch...  What kind of materials is he planning to use?  I would be shocked though if you could build it for less than $150.00/ sq. ft.

[javeryh]

For that much money, you could buy a 4000 sq ft house with a 3 car garage and a pool out here...   

Where is "out here"?  I may have to join you...

so about $250/ sq. ft.  Ouch...  What kind of materials is he planning to use?  I would be shocked though if you could build it for less than $150.00/ sq. ft.

I think solid gold framing?  How do you count square feet for a job like this.  The plans say that each floor is 382 sqft. so is that 764 sqft. (first and second floor) or 1146 sqft. (first floor, second floor and unfinished basement).  I have no idea how this stuff works.

[HaRuMaN]

Phoenix, AZ area. 

(It's hot, but it's a dry heat)

[pinballwizard79]

Just put a few games in the garage, take your kids on vacation & save that money.

[DNA Dan]

And to think they are only charging that because if you don't want to pay, there's someone in line behind you willing to whip out their checkbook. Materials on that job is probably only like 10%-15% of the asking cost. Ridiculous.

With that much work and the costs involved, you might want to consider just buying a house that you can live with the floorplan. Then you only have to paint and update it. I know you said you loved the neighborhood, but man that's a grip of cash for something that isn't really that big. It sounds like you guys have clearly out grown the house. Don't feel like you have to make a square peg fit in a round hole. Ya know?

[Necro]

Keep in mind we don't know all the details.  For a simple 'extension' with a few electrical sockets, it's a lot.  If it's literally expanding the house including HVAC, electrical, plumbing, etc., and the house itself is older (i.e., may need some upgrading for connecting 'new' portion to old and stay in code) it may be less outrageous. 

[DNA Dan]

Even still. If a contractor can BUILD a new FINISHED 2700 sqft house in my town for $380K (What we paid.) with a 75X100 lot included, then it's a ripoff. Our build included very high finishes, granite counters, solid wood floors, solid wood cabinetry, etc. etc. This price included all materials, taxes, closing costs, contractor's labor, etc., and the guy still made off with a hefty profit.

It's what his market is willing to pay. I am sure others in the area find those prices reasonable.

[Firebat138]

Yeah... it is really hard to judge without seeing it...  If he were finishing all three spaces, then  of course the basement would be cheaper to do, IE: concrete walls are cheaper to build than wood framing, but they have to excavate, demo, etc...
BUILDING a house would be cheaper as you dont have to go through all of the EXISTING hassle...  Older house, bad piping and electric, etc... 

[javeryh]

You guys are all correct.  I live in a fairly well-off town.  The public schools are fantastic and the kids will love growing up here.  Of course, I live in one of the smallest houses in the area and can barely afford that but still.  My house is about 100 years old but so is every other house in the neighborhood, most of which have been added on to or renovated, etc.

I think the high prices are what people in my area are willing to pay - reasonable or not.  I just can't get to such a ridiculously high number though.  Even if you paid a crew of 5 guys $30/hour to work 5 days a week for 3 months that's only $75,000 give or take.  If you figure $100,000 in materials which seems outrageous to me you are still under $200,000 by a lot.  It just doesn't add up.  Maybe at this point since they are not actually bidding they are just feeling me out?  I'm hesitant to tell the architect to finish the plans though if the bids truly are going to come in between $250K and $300K. 

I started doing some research into a construction loan from my mortgage holder - it seems like a good way to go because they will loan you more money with the understanding that you are investing it back in the house (instead of a home equity line where you can draw down for no reason and go to Vegas if you want).  The problem with the construction loan is that there are a TON of hoops you have to jump through and paperwork to fill out.  Also, at the end of it I'd be forced to roll the existing mortgage and the construction loan into a new mortgage (basically a refinance) at a higher rate than I'm currently paying on my existing mortgage.  I just don't know what to do.

[DNA Dan]

Have you considered a different house that already suits your needs?

I was in the same situation as you about 4 years ago. I was living in a small SF Bay Area home, really great neighborhood (except the schools suck donkey balls) and my wife and I just had twin girls. We stressed out the whole first year over how to make it work not just financially, but space wise. Our house was very nice but only 1100 sqft. very cramped by our standards. Once we started thinking longer term, 5-10 years out, there was no way the house was going to meet our needs. Not only that, but just to stay in the house AS IS was a bit of a stretch financially. I looked for a new job and we moved to a rural state and I have to say I have no regrets looking back. We are so better off now it's ridiculous. We live like kings and have a lot of nice toys. Sure there were some sacrifices (no family lives by us and the food is spotty) but overall I am glad we uprooted the family to start anew someplace else. At some point you have to do what is right for just your own family. Now I don't mean to preach to the choir here or anything, but if you're tied to that location for whatever reason, look at this possible remodel as something you are having to "sacrifice" by living there. It's the opportunity cost of staying where you are.

Whatever you do, don't stretch yourselves so thin financially. Kids are a money pit and it only gets worse with age.

[Benevolance]

Javeryh, consider if you went out and bought a house in your neighbourhood that matched the criteria you wanted, how much would you have to spend over and above your existing house? That difference would be the upper limit of what I would want to spend on the renovation.

Around here (Vancouver, which has a similarly expensive housing market due to lack of land) most house prices are determined by the square footage. There is a bit of haggling on finished quality, condition, etc. But by and large you can figure out the price of a house by the size of its lot and the sq footage of the house. Different markets, I know. But surely if you're adding X sq feet onto the house, and houses of that size are selling for 200k more in your area, then spending 200k on a renovation isn't really putting you much further behind than simply buying elsewhere.

[Necro]

Just curious, but is the extension going to be brick?  Old house in NYC and surrounding area seems like that would definitely be a possibility.

[pinballwizard79]

I live in one of the smallest houses in the area and can barely afford that but still.  

But here you are wanting to take out more money at a higher rate?

Um there is a word for that.... ghetto rich.

Its not "cool" to overpay for an over taxed house & live month to month while taking out an adjustable interest only HELOC thats based on an index which will certainly triple soon (it was apx 300% more just a few years ago & a staggering 560% higher in the 80's). Its no better to pay fees to raise your rate on even more money either dude. Here is the real kick in the scrotie on a new loan that you maybe didnt even consider... you get to start over your amortization table which that alone on the old/lower balance & rate will cost you hundreds of thousands of net taxed income I would imagine. Bend over for that new tax assessment value too which will increase your escrows each month.

C'mon man dont be credit drunk zip code braggart, everyone here is stating the obvious (dont do it) for a reason. Dont you want to pay off your house, sail or fly planes during retirement & pay just 15% taxes on your dividends vs 30% on your earnings until you die?

The biggest expense in life isnt what we buy, its what we borrow. Break free from this scheme of installments, taxes & slavery & all the drama that goes with it. The human species didnt evolve into what we are today just to do 0% balance transfers or open HELOC & die at work.

Hope I didnt seem like an a hole, I am just really passionate about this stuff & I really mean only the best by even making these comments.


EDIT: When in doubt just ask yourself "what would Carl Sagan do?"

 

[eds1275]

I say keep up your search. After 4 or 5 contractors you should be able to determine if it's going to be this expensive. But moving away from your friends/family/good education isn't a good option. So stick with where you are!

My only other suggestion would be to maybe put your bar and gameroom on top of the garage. I mean if you have to knock it down anyway you could rebuild it hella nice.

[TheChairmanH2K]

i read some of the responses in this thread and the original posting.  dude, all i can say is dont do it.  going from a 2 car garage to a 1 car on the same house is never winning situation.  you will be house poor if you go with the ridiculous estimates youre getting and honestly you need to fire that architect.  a game room and some extra chill space isnt worth the extra taxes youll have to pay.  its your money but id think of your familys needs before your wants.  dont mean to sound like an ass, just my two cents.

[DNA Dan]

TheChairman brings up an interesting point. There are some "long term hidden expenses" here. Once your remodel is completed you will be re-assessed and your property taxes will go up. You will also probably have to pay more for insurance. You know at those prices you could probably rent a place somewhere to store your arcade stuff or lease a building. You'd have to drive to it, but you would not be committed and could liquidate it at any time.

I think you need to open an arcade in town!

[javeryh]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys (even those telling me not to do it).  I need to think about this from all angles.  Financially speaking, I'm not too worried about the extra monthly payments due to a new loan.  Before we refinanced the house a while back our monthly payments were more than what we are anticipating them to be with the new loan.  Even when my wife wasn't working (she works part time now) we were still easily able to afford the payments and go on vacations, etc. all while carrying $0 in other debt (no car loan, school loan, credit card debt, etc.).  We do not live above our means in any aspect of our lives.

I have looked into buying a new (bigger) house in the same town and to "upgrade" it would be at least what I am being quoted on the costs of the addition.  This is why we are probably going down this road.  I think the main problem is that I don't have the money now for a super-expensive addition but if I saved for 2 or 3 more years I'd definitely have it covered.  Maybe the best thing to do is wait?  The problem with that is that my kids aren't getting any younger and I'd like to redo the house for them so they can get the most use out of it.  Also, there are things I would have done to the house a while ago (like redo the upstairs bathroom) that have been on hold because of this project.  I feel like I'm stuck in a holding pattern in that respect.

I have an appointment with another contractor on Wednesday and I'm setting up an in-person meeting with the mortgage people to discuss the construction loan.  Hopefully this will all work itself out but man it hasn't been easy going so far!   

[javeryh]

Well, I have a meeting this afternoon with the bank so this should either get me going like gangbusters on this project or be the final nail in the coffin.  Based on the phone conversation I had I am very optimistic - I was FINALLY able to get in touch with someone who handles construction loans exclusively after getting nowhere with 4 different people from the bank.  Anyway, this guy tells me he has been doing construction loans for 30 years and based on the little information I gave him he thinks we would be able to move forward with no trouble.  It makes sense - how else would most people be putting additions on their houses all over town without some financial assistance?  Wish me luck!

[Benevolance]

Good luck!

[SNAAKE]

I live in Arizona. You can get a nice foreclosure right now for that price.

For example: http://www.azsearchforhomes.com/idx/mls-4548942-3006_e_muirwood_drive_ahwatukee_az_85048

175k for this http://mls-photos.diversesolutions.com/237/4584833/0-full.jpg

brb moving to arizona