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Author Topic: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs  (Read 2892 times)

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smartbomb2084

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WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« on: September 04, 2010, 07:45:44 pm »
I have a friend (yes I have friends beleive it or not) that gave me some Cointaker 545 'blinker' wedge based type Cool White LEDs to use for backbox GAME TITLE  illumination in WMS Dot Matrix games like we always do to older EM and SS games with #455 bayonet style bulbs to give the games' backbox some 'animation' while the game just sits there in attract mode.  The problem is when the games' GI POWERESAVER feature kicks in at a level of 4-5-or-6 the LEDs don't work, until, of course, you start a game or press a cabinet button and the game returns to full brightness.

 When these LEDs are advertised for sale does this fact ever get mentioned? And who is designing these things?  Half the time the base is too short and the LED assemby is too 'bulbous' , ha ha, to fit through the playfield thickness and into the socket.

Just two more reasons for me to loathe pinball LEDs.

Smeghead

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Re: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 07:49:29 pm »
 :cheers:
Yeah they totally destroy the 'feel' and 'mood' of an original table

Then again im about to gut one to make a VP cab lol but you know what I mean
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lilshawn

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Re: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 10:13:43 pm »
Quote
The problem is when the games' GI POWERESAVER feature kicks in at a level of 4-5-or-6 the LEDs don't work, until, of course, you start a game or press a cabinet button and the game returns to full brightness.

since we are using low current LED's, why even use the GI powersaver?!

really, the only reason that it is there for is to increase the lifespan of the bulbs, and (later) the GI wiring in a 100% duty cycle of a route game. since theoretically LED's should last umpteen amounts of hours before failure, it seems unnecessary now.

go ahead and check your power draw on the GI circuit, it's probably less than 1/2 of the original in any given string.

likely your "blinker" LED's have additional circuitry in the LED itself to facilitate the "blink", that circuitry fails when the power is cycled during the GI "powersaver" it is a really rough sine wave chop deal that is kinda stupid if you feel so inclined do a google on "zero cross circuit" basically it detects when the AC power is at the "0" volt point in the sine wave and cuts the power for a determined count of cycles before allowing the power to run again. having the power more off than on produces the "dim" effect.

even regular LED's are kind of picky when it comes to their current and voltage. the GI "powersaver" introduces seemingly random pulsed positive and negative voltage stream (measured in cycles per second.)... not intended for LED's... (since they have a polarity and will only operate in one energy flow direction) The "powersaver" duty cycle doesn't account for this due to the fact LED's have a polarity and regular bulbs don't. (they will operate in normal and reverse energy flow just fine.)

in order to properly drive LED's in a reduced duty cycle would require a far more sophisticated switching cycle than the 60hz "wave choppin" duty cycling the GI "powersaver"

smartbomb2084

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Re: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 10:45:34 pm »
You are assuming that all the GI circuits are LEDs. There are only LEDs in the backbox behind the title artwork to make it blink like we like to do with #455 bulbs in EM games. There are 4 bulbs behind the World Cup Soccer title on the backglass for example, every other GI bulb in the game is a #44 or a #555. I want to use the powersaver feature but can't if I use these LEDs. Again, is that fact mentioned where they are sold?

I think there is an echo in here.

I fully understand why the poweresaver feature affects their operation but It is not completely obvious to everyone at first glance.

Like the man said... "Dick Tracy had one so you know it has to work"

 

Santoro

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Re: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 03:37:16 pm »
FWIW I had also read that the power save mode was not needed for LEDs.


LEDs pretty much suck in pinball machines.  The circuits and the artwork weren't made for it.  I slap them into pop bumpers that are buried deep and that's the extent of it.  

QbertblahblahWPC had LEDs in his No Fear and I thought I was going to fall onto the floor with seizures from the strobing.   :-\

I'd tell him he owes me $1 but he's moved to Abilene and I would not wish that hell on my worst enemy.



I put LEDs in the GI and some playfield inserts on my Space Station and I couldn't be happier.  My faded blue inserts looked powder blue with the incadescents, but with blue LEDs they are BLUE.  From age the red inserts were more like orange, red LEDs fixed that too. The clear inserts look positively dingy yellow with incandescents, but with white LEDs look clear/white again.

I am generally very susceptible to flicker and I have only noticed it once or twice while studying the machine in attract mode.  

I agree that from a purist's view it isn't authentic but the machine now feels vibrant and new, and that is worth it to me.  I imagine if the designers of the day had the option of using LEDs they would have.

edit: pic added
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 07:55:04 am by Santoro »

smartbomb2084

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Re: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 08:31:11 am »
I think the strobing GI effect is from using polarized LEDs instead of non-polarized ones because GI circuits are AC obviously and most LEDs are configured to run on DC.  We have tried some colored non-polarized LEDs in GI circuits and they are steadily lit with no strobing effect whatsoever.

Sure you don't need the powersaver feature if ALL your GI bulbs are LEDs but if only 6 out of 50 bulbs are LEDs.....powersaver it is.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 04:37:46 pm by smartbomb2084 »

lilshawn

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Re: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 12:21:33 pm »
maybe you could build or use a small small bridge to rectify the AC on those particular sockets you are using LED in....


just a thought, i haven't tried it before.


HHaase

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Re: WMS GI Powersaver and LEDs
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 01:32:40 pm »
All of the "non-polarized" LED's on the market now have a rectifier already built into them inside the housing.
The cointaker I pulled apart used a MB-5S rectifier. 

If you've already polarized LED's in a GI string, throwing a single bigger rectifier onto the whole GI circuit would be a lot easier than doing each individual LED.  A regular 400v 35A rectifier would be more than enough, and they only cost a couple bucks.