Control panel planning (2 u360s and buttons)

[ragnar]

I'm a newbie (that has read alot over the past year or two) and I'm currently planning my first CP.  But before I even entertain a sketch, I'd like to review what I think I need.

I am doing a 2 player cabinet with no trackball.

I am going with the u360s.  2 of them.  The reason being that I want Atari 5200 and N64 support.  So I want an analog solution.  Right now I am not planning for a restrictor plate.  In part because I am on a tight budget.  In bigger part because I don't think I need it.  Question: As for top/bottom mounting, do I have to order them for one mounting or is that something i can decide later?

I figure that I need 18 (or more) buttons.  Each player will get a U360 and 7 buttons.  I'm basically doing the Neo-Geo/Street Fighter type layout for buttons.  Each player also gets a coin button and a player start button.  So 9 buttons per player.  For a total of 18.  I am not doing any sort of pinball support.

Don't laugh but I am considering giving each player 9 buttons for N64 support.  I know .... it's a stupid idea but for an extra $8 (2 players times 2 extra buttons each) it isn't exactly a deal breaker.  

Now, regarding buttons, what other buttons could I need on top of the 18 mentioned above?  Anything for the Mala front end?  I'm still learning Mala, but can it be used to shut down Windows.  As a software engineer, I know this is trivial to do in code.  What about an exit button to exit the current game?  These are the unknowns that i have yet to plan for.

I will also be getting an iPac since the u360s only support 16 buttons total.

I will also be getting extra buttons to go into the spare/repair/future box.  Maybe 4 extras.

Button manufacturers - Is there a de facto standard that everyone prefers?  I would like to know what brand(s) is best.  Happ?  The buttons that Ultra Mark sells?  I care more about durability than finish if it matters.

Wires - What do I need to get for terminators and what gauge and type of wire?

So, to summarize:
2 - u360s
18 - buttons (UPDATE 1: see note at bottom, I need atleast 22 buttons)
1 - iPac

All comments and thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,
ragnar

UPDATE 1: Found the need for 4 more buttons thank to thestickied CP picture thread .... Admin Buttons (Green = Enter, Yellow = Pause, Orange = Menu, Red = Escape)

[mgb]

When ordering the sticks, mounting doesn't matter.
The one thing with the buttons on a u360 is that I believe they only support 8 buttons per joystick.
I would think that you will still need an ipac / keywiz for taking care of the other needed buttons such as credit, player 1 start, player 2 start.
But I may be wrong as I have never used u360s.

two other buttons needed are exit and pause.

I'm 99% sure that there is an option in mala to shutdown windows on exit of frontend. Atomicfe (which I use and really like) also has that option.

Typical arcade cable for control wires is 20 gauge. You can get by with 22 gauge.
make sure it stranded wire, crimp connection are not meant for solid wire.

in my opinion you dont really need an enter or menu button. For admin purposes such as thoses, you can use a keyboard.
The crimp connectors for the buttons are typically .187 female quick disconnects. get them insulated. Groovy game gear, lizard lick and most arcade vendors have them.

You should be fine with Happ buttons (horizontal, not ultimate). Check out Lizard Lick Amusements, he carries Happ, Sanwa and Seimitsu and he's great to deal with.

You can also check Groovy Game Gear, I just bought some electric ice buttons, they are pretty sweet. You will want to avoid ordering straight from Happ, they're expensive.

Good Luck

[Ginsu Victim]

Question: As for top/bottom mounting, do I have to order them for one mounting or is that something i can decide later?

Depends on the thickness of wood you're using for your panel and if you plan on routing out any of it. If bottom mounting, you might want to order the longer shafts.

[mgb]

Question: As for top/bottom mounting, do I have to order them for one mounting or is that something i can decide later?

Depends on the thickness of wood you're using for your panel and if you plan on routing out any of it. If bottom mounting, you might want to order the longer shafts.

oh yeah, duh
I didn't even think about the shaft length

[Ginsu Victim]

I use the regular shafts with no routing and I'm fine with the length, but it might be too short for some.

[DirtyDachshunds]

I use the regular shafts with no routing and I'm fine with the length, but it might be too short for some.

I know what you mean.  I feel my shaft length is quite adequate.  However my wife likes them longer.

[ragnar]

I've seen one CP with volume controls.  Can Mala handle controlling the system sound level?  If so, that's worth another 2 buttons.

I took a look at Mario 64.  That uses 8 of the N64 controller buttons.  I think I am going to go with an 9 button layout for the controller.  I'll just add two more buttons to the right of the normal 7 button layout.  And to answer a question that was asked, yes the u360s can handle up to 8 buttons.  So I will be getting an iPac.  Which means I can support many more buttons (32 more?).  I just don't want a frankenpanel.

I'll order the longer shafts just to be safe.  Thanks for the tip!

I'll also order the wire connectors online to be safe.  I think Home Depot might carry them though.

I'll be using 3/4" MDF for the control panel.  Is that OK?

I always forget about the Atari 5200 and jaguar controllers having numpads.  That's 12 buttons per player.  Should I even consider this?  I'm almost thinking of putting in smaller buttons.  Those small ones that are maybe 1/4" in diameter to act as a numpad.

[Ginsu Victim]

I know what you mean.  I feel my shaft length is quite adequate.  However my wife likes them longer.

You might want to consider a new wife (or surgery).

[javeryh]

I've seen one CP with volume controls.  Can Mala handle controlling the system sound level?  If so, that's worth another 2 buttons.

You can use the shift function of the iPac to assign VolUp and VolDown - also check out CabVol .

I think I am going to go with an 9 button layout for the controller .... I just don't want a frankenpanel.

It may already be too late!   

[ragnar]

I've seen one CP with volume controls.  Can Mala handle controlling the system sound level?  If so, that's worth another 2 buttons.

You can use the shift function of the iPac to assign VolUp and VolDown - also check out CabVol .

I think I am going to go with an 9 button layout for the controller .... I just don't want a frankenpanel.

It may already be too late!   

I've seen 8 before.  And it's not like I am running out of nodes on the ipac.  I figure that I will need about 10 of the 32 nodes at this point.  The numpad though.  Has anyone ever done one before?

[DirtyDachshunds]

I know what you mean.  I feel my shaft length is quite adequate.  However my wife likes them longer.

You might want to consider a new wife (or surgery).

I hear Ultimarc has great customer service.  Andy can you help me with this?

[Ginsu Victim]

Nine buttons?!? Reaon?

[ragnar]

Nine buttons?!? Reaon?

8 for Mario 64 support.  But the N64 controller has 9 buttons so I figure why not.  I just can't do games that need the d-pad.  It's a simple 2 player cab that I'll be doing so I had the real estate available on the control panel.  Also, I think that I will review the N64 games that I want to have available and make further decsions based upon that.  Tonight I am integrating N64 into Mala so I can see how that works out.

As for the numpad comment, I did some thinking.  Abobut 5 minutes worth.  I am not going to do a numpad.  That is just stupid.  If I ever do a second cabinet though I might think about doing it as a dedicated Atari cab.  I have to review the games though.  Off the top of my head, the 5200 had 3 games that I would like to have that need the numpad.

[javeryh]

Why not just integrate some N64 ports underneath your CP so you can plug in an actual controller in the event you want to play one of those games?  I love Mario 64 but I don't think I could play it on an arcade cab with the camera buttons and everything and standing up and coordinating the butt-stomp.  Doesn't sound like fun.  The N64 controllers are great for the games designed to run on the N64.

[ragnar]

Why not just integrate some N64 ports underneath your CP so you can plug in an actual controller in the event you want to play one of those games?  I love Mario 64 but I don't think I could play it on an arcade cab with the camera buttons and everything and standing up and coordinating the butt-stomp.  Doesn't sound like fun.  The N64 controllers are great for the games designed to run on the N64.

Blasted logic .....  

Ya, I've thought about that.  I just prefer to try and get the control panel doing it.  If it doesn't work out as I had hoped, I spent an extra $10 on buttons and I can always add such ports later.  What I need to do is take a look at the manuals to these games.  I really am itching for WaveRace and I think that was not a complicated game button wise.  I am somewhat worried about Mario 64 though.

Waverace Controls:

 A - Throttle, Select (1)
 B - Go Back, Cancel (2)
 CUp - Camera (3)
 CLeft - ?unused?
 CDown - Camera (4)
 CRight - ?unused?
 Z - Throttle (5)
 R - Not used
 L - Not used
 D-Pad - Not used
 Control Stick - Move racer, Toggle through selections

[ragnar]

Four questions. that are trivial to non-newbies :

a) How far away should the joystick center be from the centers of the closest buttons?  Assume a 7 button layout with a u360.
b) What is the best software to use for designing CPs?
c) How should the P1 and P2 setups be centered on the CP?  Should I just find the exact center location of the joystick/buttons for P1 and P2 and make sure those are equidistant from the center-line of the CP?
d) How much separation, at a minimum, should there be between the P1 and P2 controls?

[mgb]

a) How far away should the joystick center be from the centers of the closest buttons?  Assume a 7 button layout with a u360.
       - Typically around 3-4 inches. Check out http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html. This site has great info for planning a cp. You can download and print out joystick / button layouts. print them out and scale them so they're actual size and you will get a good feel for what works.

b) What is the best software to use for designing CPs?
       - I use paint shop pro. Others use Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. I'm sure a lot more guys can chime in on this.

c) How should the P1 and P2 setups be centered on the CP?  Should I just find the exact center location of the joystick/buttons for P1 and P2 and make sure those are equidistant from the center-line of the CP?
    - From front to back, I guess somewhat centered depending on the size of the panel. From side to side, as far apart as possible so your not hitting player 2, but I guess not so far apart that double joystick games such as crazy climber are impossible. definately look at examples of others CPs to see what should work.

d) How much separation, at a minimum, should there be between the P1 and P2 controls?
       - That all depends on the width of the cp. You want to try and maximize that within what you've got to work with.Good luck

[ragnar]

mgb,

Awesome answers.  Much appreciated!  That site you linked is awesome.

[severdhed]

Four questions. that are trivial to non-newbies :

a) How far away should the joystick center be from the centers of the closest buttons?  Assume a 7 button layout with a u360.
b) What is the best software to use for designing CPs?
c) How should the P1 and P2 setups be centered on the CP?  Should I just find the exact center location of the joystick/buttons for P1 and P2 and make sure those are equidistant from the center-line of the CP?
d) How much separation, at a minimum, should there be between the P1 and P2 controls?

a: i keep mine at 3", you can't really go any closer than that and still have room for wiring.
b: i've always used the mameroom customcontrol panel designer software, i dont remember where i got it, but it works well for rough layouts. Click Here for the software. (Link added by moderator)
c: I'd try to space them out as far as possible, the more room you have between them, the more comfortable it will be.  
d: i have 12" between the right-most buttons of player 1 and the joystick of player 2.  you could probably knock an inch or two off, but i have found that this spacing works well for two adults.

dont' forget to take into account the edges of the control panel as well.  my p1 joystick is 3" in from the left end of the panel, my hand pretty much rests on the edge, i wish i would have had an extra inch there.  also, I'm not sure how you are planning your panel, but the top of my panel has a 1/2" overhang on either side of the box below.  plus then take into consideration the thickness of the side wall of the box, (5/8")..that puts my joystick at 1 7/8" away from the inside wall of the box.  with a u360, this is just barely enough room to fit everything in.  (the usb port has to plug into the left side of the board)  with a standard microswitch stick, this is not enough space once you consider the wire connectors that stick out from the switch.  my point being, make sure the center of your joystick holes are at least 4 inches from any of the inside walls of your control panel box, or wiring will be a nightmare.


on a side note, i also vote for the controller adapters.  console emulation with arcade controls usually sucks.

[ragnar]

severedhed,

Awesome comments.  Thanks for the idea about the overhang.  I had not thought of this and it makes alot of sense in terms of both comfort and CP design.  Makes the finishing much easier in terms of visible edges where pieces join.  The 4"+ rule from the joystick center to the edge is a good thing for me to remember.

I only have a rough idea in my head for design.  I figure I will do the CP build first, get Mame semi-configured and do sme learning.  Then I will design build the cabinet.  I have a rough idea in my head for the cab design.  I just have to figure out the monitor height, monitor depth into cabinet and CP height.  Everything else should fall into place.

Yes, I might end up with a frankenpanel jr.  If I put 9 buttons on top though, I figure that the worse case is that I have 2 unused buttons.  I view it as I do when remodeling a home.  It's easier to add extra lights in the ceiling when there is no drywall.  You can spend thousands remodeling and lights cost hundreds.  The worse case is you spend a little extra on lights you didn't need.  But the other side of the coin is that if you don't do it up front and need them later, the costs and headaches increase.  I'd rather just add two extra buttons for each player and never use them then end up regretting it later.  It's $10 out of about $500 that I am spending.

[severdhed]

thats a good point.

one other piece of advice, dont bother with artwork on your control panel.  There are a few people who are just so awesome that they got their control panel perfect on the first try, but if you ask around, i'm sure there are a large number of use who made panel, used it for a while, found things we didn't like, and then made another one.  sometimes layouts look good on a pc screen or on paper, but once you have all of the controls mounted, the buttons just arent exactly where you would like them, or something just isn't positioned quite right.  if you spend the money on artwork and then have to change stuff, you are going to have to spend that money all over again down the road.  keep it plain and simple, use it for a month or so, then tweak it if necessary, then when you are happy, go for the artwork. (or don't, i like to just paint the back of the plexi glass for a very plain look)

[ragnar]

Good point.  I think I will wait on the art work.  I did see that I can get the circles that go around the sticks for about $2 each so I think I'll grab some of those so long as shipping is not to bad.  You are right though, I can always do my CP and so long as the layout is OK, I can add a graphic between the wood an Plexiglas later.

I might go up to Funspot in NH to see what I like in a CP.  Angle and height are the two big issues along with monitor location in space.  Not sure when I am going though, but it will be before the u360s ever get here.  An other co-worker wants to go with me who also plans an eventually cabinet.

I think I do want to add vinyl eventually but it is not my primary concern right now especially when on a tight budget.

What I need to do is decide on button makes and models and order this stuff all in one shot.

Oh, Wal-Mart sells 24" LCDs starting at about $165!

[ragnar]

I think for buttons, I have decided on these concave pushbuttons from Happ:

http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/5891xxl.htm

Any thoughts?

Also, I think I am going with this layout as a basis, but I will add an extra button for the thumb to get me 9 buttons.  The text below is borrowed from slagcoin:

This is a precise diagram of the Sega layout used in Astro City, Blast City (the bottom middle-finger button is .5mm more to the right, and the joystick is in the higher position), Net City, and Versus City cabinets for player 1 or single player. This layout (or an almost identical one) is used in most arcade machines and controllers in Japan. It is very appropriate for quick, comfortable, and precise play. If you have not used a slanted layout like this, feel it; it may surprise you. - http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

I'm intending to atleast borrow from the spirit of the above layout.  I think it makes alot of sense since your fingers are all different lengths.

[nitz]

Don't laugh but I am considering giving each player 9 buttons for N64 support.  I know .... it's a stupid idea but for an extra $8 (2 players times 2 extra buttons each) it isn't exactly a deal breaker.

I was a fairly big fan of the N64 back in the day, so I know a bit about the system and it's games. So if the only reason you're wanting 9 buttons is for N64 support, I have to recommend that you don't do it. The reason being is, that I would bet the number of games that assigned a unique function to all 9 buttons is a grand total of zero. Remember, that controller was designed to have you use the D pad or the analog stick but not both at the same time (and if I recall correctly, relatively few games even allowed you to use the D pad). When using the analog stick, the L button typically had the same function as Z or no function at all because it was impractical to press it when playing the game with the stick. The same could be said about Z when using the D pad.

As for wanting at least 8 for Mario 64 support, I'll just point out that it's a one player game and 4 of those buttons are used for camera control and not actual game play - I would just assign those 4 buttons to player 2's buttons. That same situation might come up with some other one player N64 games as well. So you should be fine for any one player game with just 6 or 7 buttons per player.

As for 2+ player games, I don't think many of them had unique assignments to more than 6 or 7 buttons. Although, MK4 does come to mind as needing 8 because I think it gave you the option to move left or right in 3D in addition to the usual 6 buttons - I don't think the arcade version had that option.

Now in spite of having said all that, my number one piece of advice is do whatever you think you'll be happy with! If you think it's going to bug you to have less than 9 buttons, then by all means have 9 buttons. It's you that has to live with and play this, not us, so do what you think is best. Just thought I'd throw this out there as something to think about.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[severdhed]

I think for buttons, I have decided on these concave pushbuttons from Happ:

http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/5891xxl.htm

Any thoughts?

Also, I think I am going with this layout as a basis, but I will add an extra button for the thumb to get me 9 buttons.  The text below is borrowed from slagcoin:

This is a precise diagram of the Sega layout used in Astro City, Blast City (the bottom middle-finger button is .5mm more to the right, and the joystick is in the higher position), Net City, and Versus City cabinets for player 1 or single player. This layout (or an almost identical one) is used in most arcade machines and controllers in Japan. It is very appropriate for quick, comfortable, and precise play. If you have not used a slanted layout like this, feel it; it may surprise you. - http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

I'm intending to atleast borrow from the spirit of the above layout.  I think it makes alot of sense since your fingers are all different lengths.

those buttons are pretty popular, they are what i use on all of my panels.  just dont buy them from happ, they can be had much cheaper than that.  Groovygamegear.com has them for $1.20 each, i'm not aware of anyone cheaper than that.

as for the curved layout, i like them.  i used a straight street fighter layout for my first several panels, on my last one i went with a curved layout and i like it.  i need to adjust the positions a little before i do my next one.. make sure you make a mock up to see how it feels, because a paper template doesn't do it justice.

[ragnar]

I'm probably going to use less curve than in the example.  Even though I will be hte primary user I have to keep in mind that others will be using it.  What is perfect for me is not necessarily perfect for guests.

I think $1.20 from the site you mentioned is the lowest price I have seen.

I'm not sure when I am ordering but I hope that it is soon.

[ragnar]

nitz,

I forgot that only the left shoulder or z buttons are used at once.  Very good points overall.

The most complex game that I remember is Goldeneye.  I think that used almost all buttons including the D pad.

Well played though, 9 might be overkill.  I think I'll order enough buttons for the 9 buttons per player layout and decide on installation of them when I get ready to build the CP.

[nitz]

I played Goldeneye to death when it came out, and totally forgot that it actually used the D pad until you mentioned it just now. There were very few games that gave the D pad a function other than what the analog stick did, but that was one of them. I've always thought that game could be fun on a cab, especially multiplayer, but probably tough to get a comfortable control configuration with sticks and buttons. I'll probably give it a try myself sometime though.

Something I forgot to mention in my post was that my main motivation for trying to talk you down to no more than 16 buttons total is that you could save some money because you wouldn't need a keyboard encoder then. That's what I would try to do if getting U360s since they're kind of expensive.

But yeah, I know the temptation is there to try to get every single video game you ever loved to play on your cab perfectly! The N64/PSX era console stuff can be tough though because those games got so complex compared to the era before it.

[Ginsu Victim]

just dont buy them from happ, they can be had much cheaper than that.  Groovygamegear.com has them for $1.20 each, i'm not aware of anyone cheaper than that.

As far as I can tell, GroovyGameGear is THE best place to buy them.

[ragnar]

What is the cheapest way of buying 20 gauge wire?

[kronic24601]

Go 22awg ... I used solid as it "forms a bit better" and is easier to crimp on. AS for the cheapest? If you can find a place where you don't pay shipping that's always nice, I just went to the local electronics store (Frys) ... there are obviously many online distributors though.

Also, one other thing, if you are planning on doing emulation instead of actual N64 hardware, you may want to check into what games actually work. For example... Wave Race? ... ... not so much.

[mgb]

22awg is fine. But crimp connectors are meant for stranded cable. If you have a worst case scenerio that you need to use solid wire with crimp connectors, then at least make a quick solder connection on each crimp.
But I would reccomend not using solid core wire.
There are alot of sources on line for 22awg stranded wire.

[ragnar]

WaveRace actually works quite well.  Other than an arrow that does not render over the bouys, it is pretty much running perfectly.  Mario 64 has similar issues with things not rendering.

I was going to use network cable but that is 23 gauge or more commonly 24 gauge wire.

Assuming the wire is cheap, I'd like to get it locally unless an arcade supplier sells it.  I only checked Groovy Game Gear though.  They sell the terminaotrs but not the wire.  Being me, I'd rather get 20 gauge over 22 gauge.  I always like the wire thicker when an option is presented.  I'm hoping to get multiple colored wire but it is not required if it saves me money.

EDIT: THat was quick.  I can grab some at Radio Shack for $6.50:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049740

[mgb]

Using Cat5 (or 6) can really give issues. Cat5 is 24awg solid (typically).
Check out http://www.therealbobroberts.net/conectas.html#wire
Bob Roberts is super cool to deal with.To order from him is a little different than you may be used to online though. You have to email him with what you want (copy and paste from his site) and then he will reply with a total and an address to send the check to. For the first time ordering, he will send your parts after he recieves the check and on all orders you place after that, he will ship before he recieves your payment. It may seem inconvenient but I have never waited longer then 3 days when ordering from Bob Roberts.
You can also try buying a cheap or used Jamma harness from ebay or somewhere and cut and use the conductors. Your distance on the wire shouldn't need to be too long if you're using u360s.

and duh, I just realized after all that typing that, when you are ordering your u360s from Ultimarc, you can order the harnesses right then for 8 bucks apiece.

[ragnar]

I realized a few things.  I went and put everything in a cart at Ultramark.  $218.  I decided to sleep on it and am glad that I did.  I'm going to break the 16 button mark that to u360s can support so I am doing an iPac2.  I need it anyways so I do not need the harness for the U360s.  So that saves $16.  I was also going to do an undermount for the sticks an also get the longer shafts for the u360. So I am going to research that matter of flush mounting on the surface to save $24.  Once I determine if I am doing an under or overmount of the joysticks, I will be ordering everything.

So, I ma hoping to get the cost down to $180 from $218 (shipping included)

[severdhed]

the u360s are a little short bottom mounted on a 3/4" panel with the standard shafts, but not unplayable.  I bought the longer shafts for mine, and i do not really like them...they make the throw distance way too long.  i'd recommend either top mounting them with the standard shafts, or route out part of the thickness and bottom mount them.  i also highly recommend the stiffer springs, they feel much better than the standard ones.

[ragnar]

the u360s are a little short bottom mounted on a 3/4" panel with the standard shafts, but not unplayable.  I bought the longer shafts for mine, and i do not really like them...they make the throw distance way too long.  i'd recommend either top mounting them with the standard shafts, or route out part of the thickness and bottom mount them.  i also highly recommend the stiffer springs, they feel much better than the standard ones.

I was wondering about the springs.  I thought the ones that came with them would be sufficient.  Are the stiffer ones really that much better  Redundant question I suppose :-)

If I do an undermount, I will be routing some of it away.  Right now I am trying to figure out what to do in terms of surfacing.  Plexiglass will add more thickness to the CP.  This planning stuff is harder than I had anticipate.  I'm actually ab out to start a thread about it.

[severdhed]

most people try to make the panel 3/4" thick because that is a very common size for T-molding.  if you are planning on using plexiglass like alof of us, then it is common to use 5/8" mdf with 1/8" thick plexi so you still end up with a 3/4" thick panel.  you can get t-molding in other sizes, but you dont get as many color options.

like i said, i bottom mounted my bat top u360s on a 3/4" panel.  about 3/8" of the shaft is visible from the panel to the bottom of the bat-top.  the top of the stick is about 2.5" from the panel.  they feel a little short, but i plan on routing some of the panel when i move them to my new cabinet.

the standard spring has a really light feel to it.  i reallly prefer the feel of the stiffer spring.

[Ginsu Victim]

The stiffer spring makes a world of difference.

[ragnar]

Stiffer spring it is!

Thanks, I had no intention of ordering it but now I will.