STERN vs. WMS Industries... Let's have it out.

[smartbomb2084]

Alright, enough of this crap. Post your pros and cons about why you feel one manufacturer's games are better than the other.

Consider this an open invitation to vent for or against.

[Jeff AMN]

Seawitch really is spectacular as far as classic SS games go.

I'm completely uninterested in manufacturers. Right now I have the following games:

- Bride of Pinbot
- Twilight Zone
- The Addams Family
- Lord of the Rings
- Attack From Mars
- Spider-Man
- Revenge From Mars
- World Cup Soccer '94
- OXO
- Simpsons Pinball Party
- The Simpsons (DE)
- Jurassic Park

Just in the past year alone another 15-20 machines have come and gone, from Gottlieb, to Data East and from Bally/Williams to Stern. I honestly have zero preference when it comes to manufacturers, but here's where I see the general plus/minus breakdown of each system.

Bally/Williams
+ Very easy to find parts for, tons of repros and NOS
+ Most like you remember games feeling in arcades, but that's mostly due to them dominating the space back then
+ Best collection of designers, artists, and programmers in the biz for many years
+ Great original themes

- Many things extremely over or under engineered. Simple elegance is missing from a lot of games.
- GI connectors...'nuff said.
- Boards for insert lights can be problematic with the twist lamp holders

Gottlieb
+ Almost military grade on some components and their construction
+ Their Wedgehead single players are easily the best EM games

- Some truly horrible themes, lots of knockoff fake licenses
- Their classic SS stuff is problematic without proper mods on them
- Parts market is cornered by a very backwards seller (worst parts website out there)

Stern
+ Best classic SS maker, in my opinion
+ Modern games have some very deep rulesets
+ Easy to work on, Portals system is great
+ Upgrading ROMs on the SAM system is great

- Sound package is decent, but a step back from DCS
- Many games suffer from Photoshop collage art
- Some bad licenses (WPT, BBH, etc.)
- Very prone to cutting corners on trivial things
- Awful backbox lock
- Audio knocker

Data East/Sega
+ Flippers are strong and have more range
+ Several great licenses
+ Many innovations came to pinball through them
+ Usually very easy for newcomers to understand

- Worst siderail system
- Weldments and subways seem flimsier
- Terrible backbox lock
- Lamps make a weird hum in attract mode

Capcom
+ Very strong flippers
+ Easy to work on, durable
+ Unique themes and art

- Not a lot of parts out there
- Not a lot of repair info online
- Replacement boards are non-existent for the most part

All the makers have their good and bad points. Stern is all we have now, and they're pretty hit and miss on releases, but so was everybody else in every era. For rule junkies, you can't beat some of Stern's offerings. For toys, Bally/Williams is king. For innovation, Data East was quite important. Gottlieb never really did that much in the DMD era, but there are some gems to be had; but their EMs are king.

Personally I don't care who makes a game. If it's fun, I'll play it and deal with the negatives as they creep up.

[Xiaou2]

There is no reason to even argue.  Sterns dont hold a candle to a decent Williams.

 Sterns low-budget corner cutting designs are boring, generic, and useless.

 As mentioned, their software sucks.  Its nowhere near the Williams quality level,
most likely due to cost & corner cutting.

 The sound quality is crud, And annoying, due to random voiceovers that overlap
each other without modal reason.

 Flipper feel is crud.  There flipper mechanism hits in such a way that is not
dampened, and makes a metallic clank sound.  The vibrations reverberate
all through the game, and right into your hands/wrists.

   The Williams flippers are much more grounded, and sound & feel more like two
wood blocks smacking together.  The sound less noisy, is much more pleasing,
and theres much less vibrations transferred to the players hands/wrists.   Pressing a
flipper on a stern, is simular to removing the glass on a williams, and then hitting the
flipper... but even worse.

 The Playfields on Sterns are inferior.  Generic photoshop pics and low-resolution
inkjet printing.  Its well known that Inkjects are far inferior to Screen printing.

 The Stern fields themselves, are less durable.  They are soft, and dimple way too
easily.  The way the ball reacts on them will be different too.

  Artistry - Stern has none.  No real art on the Backglass, sideart, playfield, nor theme.
Lifeless. Boring. Generic.

 Poor Gameplay - Sterns are so rushed, they often have major gamplay flaws.. such
as merciless side dumps, awful useless toys like the cannonball chamber, poor
ball flow, things that slow the game down too much... such as the path of the dead,
and much more.

[Jeff AMN]

As mentioned, their software sucks.  Its nowhere near the Williams quality level,
most likely due to cost & corner cutting.

Give me ONE game that has better software than either Lord of the Rings or The Simpsons Pinball Party. They are the deepest games in all of pinball. The way the modes stack, the way bonus multipliers work, and the way to get to multiple wizard modes is unmatched.

Hate on the builds, the feel, whatever, but to blanket statement that the software sucks is terribly ignorant. Those aren't the only two games with deep rules, but just the two that are objectively unmatched.

Spider-Man has some fantastic rules too. The way for getting multipliers built up and then applied to shots of your choosing is pretty fantastic. I can't think of any games that do it quite like that.

[RayB]

Jeff, is that before or after multiple software patches? I keep hearing about buggy or incomplete software in first editions releases from Stern.

[Jeff AMN]

Jeff, is that before or after multiple software patches? I keep hearing about buggy or incomplete software in first editions releases from Stern.

Look at how many revisions Data East, Bally, Williams, and Gottlieb games went through. Most pins do not ship with their final software update. Some games never officially get fnished, such as Cirqus Voltaire, Cactus Canyon, or Wheel of Fortune.

[shardian]

I've been under the hood of every company except Capcom now. Currently I have 2 Williams WPC games, a system 9, a DE, and a Gottlieb System 3. I've also had the pleasure of owning a Stern S.A.M. title. I think I am more than qualified to give opinions on the subject.

Williams: They have good and bad - mostly good. The WPC boardset is great. System 9 is not so great, which is why they quickly dropped it. They were plagued over several board sets with seemingly the same issues. Why they couldn't figure their GI out is beyond me. Maybe they didn't give a crap. There is this almost mystical aura around the Williams name that gets propagated in pinball circles. They're good, but not near as good as some will have you thinking. Jim is right about the flippers too. I HATE the feel of the flippers on my Whodunnit!

Data East: Good and bad here too of course. Their is definitely a 'cheap' feeling on a Data East. They chintzed on alot of things. There is something...off feeling about the DMD animations on a Data East. They feel cheap, too fast... I don't know. All I know is they are not as satisfying as a Williams DMD. The boardset in a DE is where they probably do deserve flak. This second go-round I am much more comfortable. Some of the problem though is that Clay's guides fall WAY short here of the detail in other brands. The CPU troubleshooting section is pretty much laughable. Same for the PSU troubleshooting. I've experienced more than a few symptoms that aren't even remotely hinted at in there. I'm forced to spend hours on RGP and piece together little bits of info and hit tons of dead ends. Another bad aspect is the schematics. Man...total crap. There isn't even a parts list!!! Williams has a separate book for schematics. Playfield art is always sub-par on a DE. I'll never understand why they let what are obviously just SKETCHES pass as final artwork. It's almost like they asked an artists for proof on concepts and then just said 'thanks, this is good enough'.
There is a few positives about Data East. First, themes. They cornered the market on licensed themes in the 90's. They introduced many innovative pin functions, so they were pushing the envelope. That costs money, and that will have hiccups. The other pin manufacturers stood on Data East's shoulders and improved on these innovations. Something I never see mentioned but I feel obligated to mention - playfield finish. I've had two DE DMD titles. Both have obviously had a ton of plays. Both also have ZERO wear. I would put the finish quality of a DE up against any Diamond plate Williams title.

Gottlieb: They've always been top-notch on playfield components. They've always drug up the rear on innovation, themes, and hardware/software. I am currently digging into a Freddy pin. Dang, their system 3 is definitely border line military spec as has been mentioned! The smart switch tech is great - frikking strain gauge switches dude! Being a mechanical engineer, I find that sooo geeky cool. Since their sys1 and sys80 edge connectors were so bad and widely panned, they went to the absolute best the market could provide. While cool and all, it renders my supply of .156 headers, pins, and housings useless.... They even had the foresight to abandon AA's and go with lithium batteries. How cool is that? I really believe Gottlieb could have ran away with the game if they had a bit different leadership in the marketing department. Their hardware was top-notch. Their reliability was a cut above. They went above and beyond the call to provide long term operator friendly design implementation...then they threw it all away on HORRIBLE licenses and themes. I find this a bigger tragedy than the failure of pin2k. They had dug such a huge hole and let DE and Bally/Williams steal so much of the market that they couldn't dig out.

Stern: The S.A.M. boardset is awesome. Anyone who says otherwise is a numb nuts fanboy. The art and playfield quality is definitely sub-par. My PotC definitely looked like someone had laid down an inkjet paper overlay and clearcoated over it. All of their playfields look/feel like this. Their components haven't changed since the DE days. When I was working on Lethal Weapon and PotC side by side, there were a ton of similarities. Most of the part #'s were exactly the same. It's a 2 sided coin though. The positive is that parts can be dirt cheap and be off-the-shelf. There just isn't a market anymore for all new components. Stern really doesn't have a choice. Honestly I don't know what the hell Xiaou is talking about on sound quality. Maybe his experiences is with a badly adjusted route game? PotC has AWESOME sound quality! I was disappointed that Disney royally screwed Stern on what they gave them for the theme, but what can you do in that case with a deadline? They made the best of  it they could.

I guess I've went on long enough.

[Xiaou2]

Spider-Man has some fantastic rules too. The way for getting multipliers built up and then applied to shots of your choosing is pretty fantastic. I can't think of any games that do it quite like that.

 So, in your opinion, deep rules make up for crappy gameplay?  Crappy art, crappy
sound, and more?  Guess what?  Most people disagree with this.  (especially on location)

 My "Crappy Software" comment was partly due to the constant "Repeating Sound FX".
In Williams games, sound bytes are not based merely on what you hit... but based more
on modes.  This way, you dont hear the same comments cutting into each other,
over and over again, till your ears bleed.

 Also, Sterns probably have the most Required software updates of any mfg.

 

I don't know what the hell Xiaou is talking about on sound quality. Maybe his experiences is with a badly adjusted route game?

 Or maybe your ears are in rough shape... unable to hear the difference between
a $120 headphone, and a $20 headphone.  Sterns sound muffled, and flat.  No dynamic
range at all. (not to mention, they are Mono)
 

[shardian]

 Or maybe your ears are in rough shape... unable to hear the difference between
a $120 headphone, and a $20 headphone.  Sterns sound muffled, and flat.  No dynamic
range at all. (not to mention, they are Mono)
 

Well I just don't know what to tell ya, good buddy. I had this one right next to a Bally Williams WPC game that is well known for excellent audio (Whodunnit). I would switch off from one to the other. Pirates sound was definitely on-par with whodunnit.

Thanks for being generally rude and belligerent though. 

[Jeff AMN]

None of what Xiaou2 says is based in reality or fact for the most part. Just let him rant and randomly capitalize things and chalk it up to him being him.

[Q*Bert_OP]

 Or maybe your ears are in rough shape... unable to hear the difference between
a $120 headphone, and a $20 headphone.  Sterns sound muffled, and flat.  No dynamic
range at all. (not to mention, they are Mono)
 

Well I just don't know what to tell ya, good buddy. I had this one right next to a Bally Williams WPC game that is well known for excellent audio (Whodunnit). I would switch off from one to the other. Pirates sound was definitely on-par with whodunnit.

Thanks for being generally rude and belligerent though. 

And WMS games are stereo? Data East was the first and only company until WMS made pin2000 to use stereo sound, starting with Secret Service.

[shardian]

Mono is pretty standard, but there is some simulated stereo on many pins it seems. The match sequence on Pirates is extremely spatial. Very cool audio at that point. From what I understand the SAM board is mono, but is capable of stereo in a pinch or for special circumstances.

[pinballwizard79]

I so freakin have it made. There is a guy in my town that is a total fanatic (I mean hell the dude has two MM's for crying out loud) who lets the public play his bad ass collection twice a month. This means I am exposed to a lot of machines...hell it sure feels like I have played every game ever made. I went to the PHOF & thought I was back home lol.

My ownership experience is more DE than WMS so I will comment most on DE.

1. Newer WMS seem very smooth (TOM, CC & TOTAN play like butter) & are well built. Too bad they are overrated, over priced & a ---smurfette--- to keep up (Ahem... STTNG cannons/switches, IJ path & TZ everything).

2. Sterns are the fastest most shiny colorful & brightest devices I have ever played + they have awesome long play times & the deepest rules. Too bad the art totally sucks wolf man nards & they do feel like more toy than machine to me.

3. "Gottelib? Who? Oh the old pinball machines right?" Yeah, I always feel like they were better with their classics. The 90's stuff was overbuilt, plain & had poorly executed art/finishes IMO.

4. Data East are usually simple to work on & in my experience they dont break often, they are a great value for the money, have very recognizable licenses & no matter how dirty they get you know damn well that playfield will polish up nice because in the factory it was sprayed with 4 coats of bad ass. Sigh, too bad they do indeed feel clunky & dont have the smoothness or build quality of a WMS. Since they fail to fetch a lot of money with buyers they in return fail to receive the pampered shop & restoration like other machines which I think further perpetuates a "ho hum" reaction when played. Its hard to get excited with a dirty hack repaired LAH with a random Bullwinkle plastic on it after playing a glistening 401k taker like a restored TZ, know what I mean?

5. They are all fun so just buy 10 of each, I seriously want almost every machine ever made. As a kid the lights, sounds, art & moving parts captivated me first. As a teenager I wanted a loft packed with machines (arcades/pins) & there was a definite desire for the notoriety & of course fun of having the stuff of Silver Spoons in my own home. When I hit my 20's I finally learned how pinball works, like the modes, jackpots & etc....then I was really hooked.

Thats all I got, as you were.

[shardian]

I have something to add:

Today I had the mis-pleasure of doing an LED conversion on an Elvis today. Dude...those insert holders on the Whitestar games are CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- dude, I'm gonna have to go over again another day just to hot glue a ton of the lamps in place...

I swear dude, you even look at one of those insert holders funny and they will pop out. Combine that with the crappy 555 housings on those LED's, and you have a nightmare situation. My Stern opinion got bumped down more than a bit today...